Record-12 brake clearance update

[AngryScientist]

oh well, a little disappointed.

my main roadie wears record 11 brakes, with the single pivot rear. clearance was not the best with 25c tires, and i thought record 12 brakes would increase the clearance. wrong-0. less clearance with the record 12 calipers, so back to the single pivot rear i go.

in reality, i think the new record calipers look crappy compared to the skeletons, so i guess i'm good with that.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D75JZaGJGNE/Xo5q6xK2QTI/AAAAAAAADoE/jqo0s_QMDNgvuobYcpkwbvruxhep016YwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5268.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kdN82P4Qdsk/Xo5q66NnHNI/AAAAAAAADoA/C82GWlroGAEQTvW2j4MGE6EeEbLkHXXHACLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5267.jpg

[donevwil]

Interesting? Appears if the frame were built with the C12 calipers in mind you'd have gobs of room, single pivot is just above mid-slot while the C12 is near the top of the slot. Hmm, wonder how these compare to Chorus 12 calipers. Totally agree on the appearance.

[AngryScientist]

Interesting? Appears if the frame were built with the C12 calipers in mind you'd have gobs of room, single pivot is just above mid-slot while the C12 is near the top of the slot. Hmm, wonder how these compare to Chorus 12 calipers. Totally agree on the appearance.

I agree with that assessment, clearly this frame was not built with max tire clearance with standard reach brakes in mind.

i am going to try these calipers on one of my other bikes with a differently placed brake bridge tomorrow and see what i find.

[cgolvin]

On my Duende the Chorus 12 calipers have oodles of clearance (photo somewhere in another thread)

[R3awak3n]

isnt there something you turn to get the 12 speed stopers to have more clearance? I thought I ready about that here on the forum.


That said, plenty of clearance on those skeletons and they look MUCH better.

[Cat3roadracer]

oh well, a little disappointed.

my main roadie wears record 11 brakes, with the single pivot rear. clearance was not the best with 25c tires, and i thought record 12 brakes would increase the clearance. wrong-0. less clearance with the record 12 calipers, so back to the single pivot rear i go.

in reality, i think the new record calipers look crappy compared to the skeletons, so i guess i'm good with that.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D75JZaGJGNE/Xo5q6xK2QTI/AAAAAAAADoE/jqo0s_QMDNgvuobYcpkwbvruxhep016YwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5268.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kdN82P4Qdsk/Xo5q66NnHNI/AAAAAAAADoA/C82GWlroGAEQTvW2j4MGE6EeEbLkHXXHACLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_5267.jpg

The new Record brakes look like a joint venture with SRAM. Wouldn't that be something.

[R3awak3n]

do 12 speed use shimano pads? Its about time campy drops their own pad system

[charliedid]

Nick

Did you try dropping the pads just a tiny bit and taking up some cable slack? At least from here it looks like you have quite a bit of space between pad and rim? Carbon so you should be able to run tighter than that, no? Obviously I can't see what you can from here. I don't mind the look personally but if they no work...

[charliedid]

isnt there something you turn to get the 12 speed stopers to have more clearance? I thought I ready about that here on the forum.


That said, plenty of clearance on those skeletons and they look MUCH better.

I wondered that too.

[tv_vt]

I'm seriously surprised that's the best Campy can do these days. Those Record12 calipers look very plain. And the clearance issue points to them being out of touch with where things are at in terms of tire usage, if that is truly the best clearance they provide.

[AngryScientist]

do 12 speed use shimano pads? Its about time campy drops their own pad system

not record level.

from what i understand, chorus level and below are now outsourced and use shimano style pads. record and SR still made by campy and use campy specific pads.

[AngryScientist]

isnt there something you turn to get the 12 speed stopers to have more clearance? I thought I ready about that here on the forum.


interesting question, i'll look at them closer in the AM.

[R3awak3n]

Nick

Did you try dropping the pads just a tiny bit and taking up some cable slack? At least from here it looks like you have quite a bit of space between pad and rim? Carbon so you should be able to run tighter than that, no? Obviously I can't see what you can from here. I don't mind the look personally but if they no work...

yep. I knew I saw it somewhere. As seen here... Karl Cs Dogma

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2554711&postcount=34


not record level.

from what i understand, chorus level and below are now outsourced and use shimano style pads. record and SR still made by campy and use campy specific pads.

Ah, you shoulda got the chorus then :) I do have some Potenzas with shimano pads myself, 11 speed skeletons and they are actually excellent for $50.

[R3awak3n]

interesting question, i'll look at them closer in the AM.

yes. Check my link above.

[ERK55]

I have to say your report is disappointing. It was my impression, partly via the Campy literature, that the 12 speed calipers had significantly more clearance, not less. So much for evolution.

[AngryScientist]

Nick

Did you try dropping the pads just a tiny bit and taking up some cable slack? At least from here it looks like you have quite a bit of space between pad and rim? Carbon so you should be able to run tighter than that, no? Obviously I can't see what you can from here. I don't mind the look personally but if they no work...

hi charlie, i dont think that would buy me much at all, there is very little clearance as shown.

to be fair, as donevwil pointed out, i think if this frame was designed with brake bridge placement to optimize for these calipers, it does look like there would be gobs more clearance, but as i sit, i'm definitely better off with the old units.

that's all OK too, the old ones look better and this is the biggest tire i'm likely to run on this bike too.

[AngryScientist]

yes. Check my link above.

thanks paulo, i'll do some experimenting in the morning. i doubt it will make much difference on this particular frame, but we'll see!

[charliedid]

Roger that.

[one60]

you might gain some additional clearance by adding another serrated washer or two ?

[mcteague]

My Record 12 brakes have less clearance, using Pro4 25s, than Chorus 11s. However, I do find the Record brakes seem to have more braking power. Agree they don't look as good.

Tim

[ERK55]

My Record 12 brakes have less clearance, using Pro4 25s, than Chorus 11s. However, I do find the Record brakes seem to have more braking power. Agree they don't look as good.

Tim

Again, that’s disappointing to hear.
I have Campy 11 speed on my bikes; I had actually given thought to replacing the brakes with 12 speed. Not going to do that now.

[john903]

So this not so much a comment on the brakes. Wow you have quite the wheel stash in the back ground of the picture.
Have a great day.

[KarlC]

Lots of extra clearance with Record 12 if you want it, by adjusting the screw on the side.....

With the Veloflex Vlaanderen 27 tubular tires
my rear brake clearance was tight so I tried Record 12 and here is what I found.

All of the below photos are on my Seven 622 SLX, all with the same brake shoes and pads. All are held fully closed against the same Zipp 303 FC wheel with a Veloflex Vlaanderen 27 tubular tire at 80 PSI.

1st photo is Record 11, (I could not fit a 2mm allen in, so maybe there is 1.5mm space)
2nd photo is Record 12 with the adjustment screw fully in (this is touching the tire)
3nd photo is Record 12 with the adjustment screw fully out (I did fit a 4mm allen in)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48083164761_75332031b5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gfWMG6)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48083267477_cd6e8f4451_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gfXje4)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48083267792_b54040f949_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gfXjju)

[charliedid]

Lots of extra clearance with Record 12 if you want it, by adjusting the screw on the side.....

This is the post I remember.

Good work

[AngryScientist]

Thanks Karl!

[KarlC]

Thanks Karl!

:banana:

.

[AngryScientist]

OK, just to close the loop on this one:

just went outside and fiddled with that adjustment screw. definitely helped! In the end it didnt buy me any additional clearance on this frame, so i'm going to stick with the 11-sp units.

i do think that if a frame were optimized with regard to bridge placement, the 12-sp would provide more clearance, but that's just not the case with this particular frame.

[fignon's barber]

Just curious: are 11speed brakes compatible with a 12speed group, or has campagnolo engineered in some sort of modulation hurdle?

[Pastashop]

Am I missing something, or could a slightly higher brake bridge placement have worked with virtually any caliper to give substantially more room for a fatter tire?.. I really don’t understand why so many frames appear to have the brake bridges purposely placed to minimize tire clearance. (I could see how pads higher in the slots could give a bit more mechanical advantage for braking, but it really is inconsequential with rear braking.)

[zero85ZEN]

Just curious: are 11speed brakes compatible with a 12speed group, or has campagnolo engineered in some sort of modulation hurdle?

11 speed brake calipers are fine with 12 speed levers. As are 10 speed/9 speed/8 speed/etc calipers.

[Waldo62]

The problem isn't with the brakes, but with the frame...

[robt57]

The problem isn't with the brakes, but with the frame...

Maybe not...

Not the case when I upgraded My Ti Super Spectrum from 7800 to 11 SR. I had to go down a tire size with the SR calipers the 7800 had room for.

And been in that situation before with Ti Record calipers. I learned then the rim brake calipers with the most room are BR-5800. Ti Record Calipers going on a my Look 585.

[Black Dog]

The problem isn't with the brakes, but with the frame...

Exactly. When the world only ran 23mm tires brake bridges started getting lower and chain stays got closer together near the BB.

[Dave]

Just curious: are 11speed brakes compatible with a 12speed group, or has campagnolo engineered in some sort of modulation hurdle?

I have 2018 Chorus 11 brakes on one of my 12 speed bikes. The other has Chorus 12 brakes with the Shimano standard pads. I haven't noticed any difference.

[fignon's barber]

I have 2018 Chorus 11 brakes on one of my 12 speed bikes. The other has Chorus 12 brakes with the Shimano standard pads. I haven't noticed any difference.

Thanks Dave.

[clarendon]

Lots of extra clearance with Record 12 if you want it, by adjusting the screw on the side.....

Hi - I know this group attracts a fair number of Peg users. Has anyone managed to fit Corsa 28s on a Marcelo with SR/R 12 speed? I can fit Corsa 25s fine on Bora rims with not a huge amount of extra clearance but interested to give 28s a try. I haven't tried adjusting the screw yet though

[lavi]

Hi - I know this group attracts a fair number of Peg users. Has anyone managed to fit Corsa 28s on a Marcelo with SR/R 12 speed? I can fit Corsa 25s fine on Bora rims with not a huge amount of extra clearance but interested to give 28s a try. I haven't tried adjusting the screw yet though

I don't think a 28 would fit (on a wider rim)...not because of the brake bridge/caliper. That might work. Up front (the Falz fork, or Ouzo) won't clear more than a 25. Back to the rear....it's the clearance on the seat stays that will likely not work with a 28.

On my Love #3, a 25 on a wide rim (HED and Enve) would leave a scant 2 mm or so between the stay and the rubber. Not much wiggle room there.

[clarendon]

I don't think a 28 would fit (on a wider rim)...not because of the brake bridge/caliper. That might work. Up front (the Falz fork, or Ouzo) won't clear more than a 25. Back to the rear....it's the clearance on the seat stays that will likely not work with a 28.

On my Love #3, a 25 on a wide rim (HED and Enve) would leave a scant 2 mm or so between the stay and the rubber. Not much wiggle room there.

Returning to this with an update and a question. This is my 2008 era Marcelo with a Veloflex Corsa 28 on the rear, SR 12 and a Bora 35 rim. There is some clearance (perhaps 2-3mm) after taking up some slack in the cable but not much - also the bridge is pretty close. To the point @lavi raised there actually does seem to be good clearance up front with the Falz 2 on this bike as well as at the back on the seat stays.

My question is whether there is anything else I can do to the callipers to increase the clearance a little? I think @huck*this mentioned the adjuster in a previous post. Or should I just ride 25s?

[AngryScientist]

Returning to this with an update and a question. This is my 2008 era Marcelo with a Veloflex Corsa 28 on the rear, SR 12 and a Bora 35 rim. There is some clearance (perhaps 2-3mm) after taking up some slack in the cable but not much - also the bridge is pretty close. To the point @lavi raised there actually does seem to be good clearance up front with the Falz 2 on this bike as well as at the back on the seat stays.

My question is whether there is anything else I can do to the callipers to increase the clearance a little? I think @huck_this mentioned the adjuster in a previous post. Or should I just ride 25s?

have you viewed post 23 in this thread from Karl? the adjuster screw does change the geometry of these brakes quite a bit depending on bridge location, something to play around with if you havent already for sure.

[clarendon]

have you viewed post 23 in this thread from Karl? the adjuster screw does change the geometry of these brakes quite a bit depending on bridge location, something to play around with if you havent already for sure.

Cheers. When you say adjuster are you referring to the large black dial screw on the side?

[thirdgenbird]

An extra washer between the brake and frame could gain you space too. I’ve done this in other applications.

[AngryScientist]

Cheers. When you say adjuster are you referring to the large black dial screw on the side?

no. in the photo below you see a tiny set screw to the extreme right of the photo (just below the pivot point). that's the one to play with. it's surprising how much it changes the brake geometry. give it a try.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81hcAx9-ByL._AC_SX425_.jpg

[clarendon]

[QUOTE=AngryScientist;2800663]no. in the photo below you see a tiny set screw to the extreme right of the photo (just below the pivot point). that's the one to play with. it's surprising how much it changes the brake geometry. give it a try.


Got it. That definitely helps. I can get 3mm of clearance that way between tyre and calliper. Any views on whether that's enough (or go back to 25s)?

Also - what does the screw on the other side do..

[AngryScientist]

Got it. That definitely helps. I can get 3mm of clearance that way between tyre and calliper. Any views on whether that's enough (or go back to 25s)?

if this sees dry roads mainly, that's enough. if you're frequently riding wet gritty stuff, you'll put some wear on the brake, but it's not a big deal IMO, i'd ride it that way.

[thirdgenbird]

I agree with above. While I prefer more, 3mm is enough for road riding. Don’t be shocked if you wear the anodization a bit but it’s not an issue.

[djdj]

Counterpoint -- that bike wasn't built with 28 tires in mind and you will probably get all of the comfort and grip you need with 25 Veloflex and not have to worry about clearance.

[clarendon]

Thanks all. Very helpful and duly noted

[Mark McM]

Also - what does the screw on the other side do..

It adjusts the tension on the return spring (turn it in to increase tension, out to reduce tension). It won't affect geometry or centering.

[R3awak3n]

Counterpoint -- that bike wasn't built with 28 tires in mind and you will probably get all of the comfort and grip you need with 25 Veloflex and not have to worry about clearance.

its true, with veloflex tires I would be more worried that they just disintegrate while looking at them than the different in comfort between a 28 and 25.


That said I still rather ride a 28 than 25 so I understand the OP BUT I would not spend significant amount of money trying to get there. Say buy a new brakeset.... however, you could get a set of EE brakes which would probably work.

[djdj]

I've had more problems with Vittoria and Continental than Veloflex, but to each his own as they say.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=AngryScientist;2800663]no. in the photo below you see a tiny set screw to the extreme right of the photo (just below the pivot point). that's the one to play with. it's surprising how much it changes the brake geometry. give it a try.


Got it. That definitely helps. I can get 3mm of clearance that way between tyre and calliper. Any views on whether that's enough (or go back to 25s)?

Also - what does the screw on the other side do..

Adjusts spring tension. Oooops, thanks Mark.

[one60]

not sure if it was mentioned but adding a few washers between the brake and bridge would push the caliper out and upwards. Might be another way to obtain additional clearance?

[RonW87]

When people were riding aero Cervelos, 3 mm clearance was an aero feature!

[ntb1001]

I’m frustrated...need some advice.

I have a vintage steel frame I’m building with Campy Record 12.
I’m finding no clearance at all with the callipers...especially the front.
The tires are Vittoria Corsa Control 25c.
They run against the brake calliper.
I also put a different from wheel in the fork with 23c tires, and same problem.

Do these callipers have less clearance than previous versions such as 11speed ???

I’m going crazy with this!!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210414/10f415c48a84659316aa94a680ac2afe.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210414/a7a8b5908fa1e3ec7726b2a868bbae80.jpg


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[KarlC]

You just have to make the right adjustments, read this thread ......

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=249850&highlight=clearance

.

[Mark McM]

What does it look like with the cable attached and adjusted? Dual pivot brakes typically have the least clearance when the arms are fully open, and increase clearance as the arms close.

[AngryScientist]

KarlC is correct. That little tiny set screw changes the geometry of the brake a LOT and will fix you right up.

Also, thanks to Karl for setting me straight too :)

[Keith A]

Just curious, is this adjustment only on the 12-speed and not the 11-speed?

[ntb1001]

Tried adjusting..I’m not really seeing any difference although after attaching cable, I get some more clearance


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[RoosterCogset]

in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.

[Ozz]

in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.
It might depend on the brake bridge and fork crown placement....

[joevers]

You need to attach the cable. The return spring is pushing the arm down towards the tire with no tension as you're seeing.

[ntb1001]

in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.


It is a vintage steel frame so I get that tolerances are different now...but I’ve built vintage frames with 11 speed campy group sets without any problems before.


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[Mark McM]

Just curious, is this adjustment only on the 12-speed and not the 11-speed?

The centering adjustment screw is found on nearly all dual pivot brakes, and is a necessity on direct mount brakes.

[Mark McM]

in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.

The biggest variable in clearance above the tire is the height of the brake mounting hole, and that is dependent only only on the frame/fork. Caliper design can only get a few more millimeters at best. With a frame designed for them, modern 12spd calipers can easily fit 32mm tires.

Another factor is that modern rims are getting wider, which lets the tire expand out wider/taller, so a "25mm" tire might end up being closer to 28mm on a wide rim.

[Keith A]

The centering adjustment screw is found on nearly all dual pivot brakes, and is a necessity on direct mount brakes.Thanks. Yes, I'm familiar with the centering adjustment screw, but I thought the adjustment being discussed here would modify the height of the calipers.

[Mark McM]

Thanks. Yes, I'm familiar with the centering adjustment screw, but I thought the adjustment being discussed here would modify the height of the calipers.

The centering screw won't modify the height of the caliper at the center pivot, but it can modify the height of the offset pivot, and the arm that rotates on the offset pivot. First you adjust the centering screw to move the caliper closing point to the left, then you rotating the entire caliper on the center mounting bolt back to the right. This rotates the offset pivot up and to the right, raising the arm that rotates on the offset pivot.

[Keith A]

Mark -- Thanks for the explanation.

[Black Dog]

How much clearance are you getting when the pads are a few mm from the rim? Where are the pads located in the slots on the calliper arms?

Also, if the frame is 90's vintage it is almost certainly designed with 23 mm tires and narrow rims in mind.

[ntb1001]

How much clearance are you getting when the pads are a few mm from the rim? Where are the pads located in the slots on the calliper arms?

Also, if the frame is 90's vintage it is almost certainly designed with 23 mm tires and narrow rims in mind.


With the cables attached and set up...there is a bit more clearance. It should be enough to make it rideable, but it’s still tight.
I built up other bike and have never had it this tight. This frame must have closer tolerances. Might have to look for some 23mm tires for a little more room.


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[Black Dog]

With the cables attached and set up...there is a bit more clearance. It should be enough to make it rideable, but it’s still tight.
I built up other bike and have never had it this tight. This frame must have closer tolerances. Might have to look for some 23mm tires for a little more room.


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You can add a spacer to the rear brake to get a bit more clearance. Make sure the nut is long enough if you do. I had to do this on one of my bikes to run 25mm tires. Works like a charm.

[alexandrumarian]

I would say there is no going around the fact the new brakes have less clearance than the old. And no faffing around the screw will change it much, besides that screw is supposed to be used for centering not maxed on some weird spot... The truly important parameter is how the fork is drilled, period.

I am a big Campy fan but I felt cheated after spending 300e on my SR12 only to find the marketing was bull (more clearance). I had switched to 27mm tubs from 25, and clearance (2015 Record) was tight, about 2mm. I could feel debris or twigs sometimes getting caught. I hoped the new brakes will have about 1-2mm extra making it perfect, but no. With the new brakes it would not work at all, had to change back to 25. In retrospect I should have sent them back, even if they look pretty cool...

BUT in retrospect the screw method does seem to help. Wish I had figured it out before tearing that tub :) So basically, unscrew the centering bolt almost fully (you still want a modicum of easy adjustment) then recenter the brake from the main mounting bolt.

[jacrider]

in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.

I just re-built a 25 yr old steel frame with new Campy Chorus 12 speed. I have no problem with 28mm tires. Could probably fit 30's. I think this issue is the height of the brake bridge. As noted by others and the OP's subsequent posts, cable tension will make the two brake arms go up, providing better clearance, but the brake bridge will be a critical factor.

[fignon's barber]

I think the issue is not so much the brakes, but the frame and tires. Remember Vittoria Corsa Control are oversized 25mm. On most rims, they run closer to 28mm. Framesets of that era ran 19,21,23mm tires usually, and Pinarellos were known for their tight geo and snappy handling.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset View Post
in today's world, that's kinda scary if a modern 12s caliper rim brake can't accommodate 25s.
...
It might depend on the brake bridge and fork crown placement....

Not might but does. BTW-Chorus calipers of this era have more clearance, clarence.

Vintage Pinarello frame...

[AngryScientist]

i'm going to merge this into the other thread to keep all this info in one place for later search bliss.

[Hellgate]

I think the issue is not so much the brakes, but the frame and tires. Remember Vittoria Corsa Control are oversized 25mm. On most rims, they run closer to 28mm. Framesets of that era ran 19,21,23mm tires usually, and Pinarellos were known for their tight geo and snappy handling.Exactly.

I rode a Pinarello Treviso back in the '80's. I used Superbe Pro brakes and it was pretty tight made for 21mm tires. Those bikes weren't lazy Peugeots or Motobecanes with slack angles on 27" x 1 1/4" tires.

[ntb1001]

You can add a spacer to the rear brake to get a bit more clearance. Make sure the nut is long enough if you do. I had to do this on one of my bikes to run 25mm tires. Works like a charm.


Trying again today with fresh eyes...but this is getting the better of me.
I don’t usually give up...but this build is going on a hook until I figure it out. Might have to put on different calipers and some smaller tires.
This is the first time I’ve been I’ve frustrated building a bike.

I might have a freshly powder coated Pinarello frame for sale!!


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