Serotta Ottrott – Which stem / spend my money!

[Monsieur Toast]

Going to piggy back off of exapkib's thread they started yesterday ...

I've got an Ottrott I'm slowly piecing together and all that remains to acquire is the cockpit. I was planning on an ENVE carbon stem with stealth/black lettering, but after seeing one in person this morning I'm starting to think it's too bulbous to match the Ottrott.

Physical requirements are ballpark 6° / 110mm. Aesthetic requirements are black, with either no or subtle graphics –*stripping them is also an option. I'm starting to look at Zipp, 3T, etc., now and figured I'd throw it out to the crowd for input while we're all mostly stuck indoors.

http://zerominuszero.net/000/bici/Ottrott_InProgress_01.jpg

[nobuseri]

I would say any of the 3T ARX stems - but acetone the logos. That would be my route.

[vqdriver]

the 3t arx ltd stealth or black inc would work well

[dbnm]

Half price
https://www.3t.bike/en/products/stems/arx-ltd-stealth-580.html

[Coffee Rider]

For the full bling factor other than using a small production stupid light European brand, I'd go with Enve or titanium. Of all the major brand carbon vendors, I think Enve has the highest bling factor. Although it would cost a bit more, a Ti stem would look even better in my opinion. There are so many rational options as I'm sure other people will point out to you.

[Ozz]

Competitive Cyclist looks to have a pretty good sale going on for 3T: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/3t-handlebar-stems

[cgolvin]

Although it would cost a bit more, a Ti stem would look even better in my opinion.

I agree with this -- my Ottrott is white and I've gone with white cockpit, but remain tempted to switch to Ti stem and seatpost since it connects nicely to the head and seat tubes, just pricey. A more cost effective option would be the Deda pieces that are alloy but have a Ti-looking finish, but they are hard to find, especially the seatpost.

Nice Ottrott BTW.

[Clean39T]

Half price
https://www.3t.bike/en/products/stems/arx-ltd-stealth-580.html

80% off: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/clearance/components?f=4294966906&utm_expid=.ckkRuxI9QieiYxXQHS8d3A.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chainreactioncycles .com%2Fus%2Fen%2Fclearance%2Fcomponents

[Clean39T]

This thread is reminding me I need to buy SoCalSteve's Ottrot...just wish it had some cable stops... :rolleyes:

[SoCalSteve]

This thread is reminding me I need to buy SoCalSteve's Ottrot...just wish it had some cable stops... :rolleyes:

Here is my Ottrott ( which Clean 39T will buy...:)) with an ENVE stem.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2048958&postcount=2

Cable stops are for wussie-boys, so last week! Go cable-stopless or go home...:banana:

[sonicCows]

If you don't want to go for a Kalloy UNO, the Nitto UI-25BX here is a great choice

https://i.imgur.com/axnPSvJl.jpg

E: well i guess you're going campy so an italian stem may look nicer. deda or 3T in that case

[charliedid]

Get Firefly or someone to make a Ti stem in same finish with a black face.

[robt57]

Something carbon wrapped with as similar a weave as the top layer on the tubes. Ti Face on stem be OK too. ;)


Or one piece weavy carbon??


https://i.pinimg.com/564x/94/bc/6f/94bc6fd1f3dc389cc724de42f7c2e065.jpg

[cgolvin]

Here (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2273151&postcount=9) are a couple of really nice examples that use Ti, from @54ny77 and @happycampyer.

Oh, and they have cablestops. Proper. :banana:

[Monsieur Toast]

Thanks for all the quick responses.

I think that the 3T ARX LTD Stealth is a looker, but I'm wondering if all carbon stems end up looking a little too bulbous for the Ottrott. It's pretty close to the ENVE I was leaning towards, but now questioning.

Might need to go with something aluminum to better match the form factor of the frame.

And titanium is slick, but I think with a black seat post / cranks / fork I'm inclined to keep all the bits that stick off the frame the same color.

[robt57]

The FSA OS-99 CSI Stem, remove logos/stripes is slim and not bulbous looking.

https://img-1.gearbuyer.com/fsa_os_99_csi_stem_p1_-1.jpg



Enjoy that purty thing BTW...

[tv_vt]

Fizik, Fizik, Fizik. My answer to any stem question. R3 alloy works great.

Or yeah, a ti stem would look good on that frame. Ti Cycle Fabrications is your friend...

PS. Am I the only person on here that thinks Enve stems look awful?

[Monsieur Toast]

Dang, a bunch of more responses got thrown up while I messed around with a reply.

Those titanium stems 54ny77 and happycampyer have look fantastic with a finish matched to the frame. Thankfully 100% out of my price range right now so I don't even have to think about the logistics.

Even with the lack of cable stops, that's a sharp looking setup SoCalSteve and helps me actually see what the ENVE stem looks like on an Ottrott.

That Nitto stem is actually pretty sweet. I run Nitto stem, handlebars, and post on my Della Santa w/ Campy and have no reservations mixing Italiano & Japanese.

The 3T Apto is probably what I'm leaning towards now, especially if that rubberized logo on the faceplate and be removed (along with acetoning the graphics).

[SoCalSteve]

Here (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2273151&postcount=9) are a couple of really nice examples that use Ti, from @54ny77 and @happycampyer.

Oh, and they have cablestops. Proper. :banana:

Proper is so last week. All the cool kids are going cable-stopless and loving every minute of it!!!

https://youtu.be/F0_tVMLnj94

[Monsieur Toast]

Fizik Cyrano R1 was my original thought, but their graphics don't lend themselves to being flipped and I wasn't how well they could be stripped. Anyone have any experience? Same thing as any other alloys? 100% acetone and five minutes?

[NHAero]

Whisky if you are looking for matte and not gloss.

[jtbadge]

If you're removing graphics, might as well just get the Kalloy Uno. Very light and very affordable.

Otherwise, what brand are your bars? Get the stem that matches.

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-tqfdy/images/stencil/960w/products/568/2004/Kalloy_Uno_Stem_Parent__43765.1448990115.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on

[Kingfisher]

I agree with carbon stems being too bulbous....I’ve got an ENVE on my cannondale and it just looks too big

[Tickdoc]

Gonna be a looker regardless of which stem you choose. I vote extralite.

[Monsieur Toast]

Kalloy & Whisky look like someone already did the work for me. Not familiar with either of those so I'll have to read some reviews. Forgot about Extralite ... also a good option.

No bars picked out yet. That's going to be the next thread, along with what should I eat for breakfast ...

[merckxman]

I wanted an Extralite but budget dictated something else. A Thompson stem looks very good.

[pdmtong]

Kalloy & Whisky look like someone already did the work for me. Not familiar with either of those so I'll have to read some reviews. Forgot about Extralite ... also a good option. No bars picked out yet. That's going to be the next thread, along with what should I eat for breakfast ...

The only thing about kalloy uno that people don't like is the price - too cheap aka can't be good. I got mine from Fairwheel because I was looking for a cheap stem to try out a particular set up (-17d x 110) and couldn't find a used stem with that geo in the classifieds. Fairwheel told me they sell hundreds of these on bling builds as placeholders until people decide their fit or aren't ready to shell out for a stem that screams "I spent $300", Guess what, I cant think of a reason to change mine out (cannondale hi-mod synapse DA9170)

My build has no silver bits so I let myself be suckered into the $25 black ti bolt kit. on an ottrott I would NOT do that. so for $35 you are all set...

[Toddykins]

Custom Firefly stem is always the answer to this question.

[pdmtong]

Custom Firefly stem is always the answer to this question.
A flipped up FF stem is an aesthetic fail...

[joosttx]

Deda superleggero. It is a thin stem and would work well with the size of the frame's tubes.


https://www.wiggle.com/deda-superleggero-stem/

[mtechnica]

Whatever it is has to match the handlebars, don't you know?

[glepore]

I'll dogpile on the uno. I have one on my Ottrott. Logos strip easily with acetone, although I left the two small red and white stripes. They look great with ano bolts as well, gold or red.

[Monsieur Toast]

So what is the proper build etiquette for selecting handlebars when your stem is a Fair Wheel Uno Stealth and your seat post is a Serotta?

I was originally thinking some Fizik Cyrano R1s ... but it seems like y'all have an opinion on this sort of stuff and don't mind sharing!

[charliedid]

If we are still talking looks, this in the finish of your frame is still my best offer. Yes it's expensive but you ain't riding a Diamondback from Amazon. Find a used Ti stem and live it up! You did say "spend my money" after all.

[Monsieur Toast]

If we are still talking looks, this in the finish of your frame is still my best offer. Yes it's expensive but you ain't riding a Diamondback from Amazon. Find a used Ti stem and live it up! You did say "spend my money" after all.

Serotta Ottrott – Which stem / spend my money! *

* Forum member does not actually have that much money to spend.

[KarlC]

Check out Controltech Timania Handelbars and Stems

,

[charliedid]

Serotta Ottrott – Which stem / spend my money! *

* Forum member does not actually have that much money to spend.

Okay I give.

How about a Fizik R1 painted glossy black?

[charliedid]

Or this

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-sl-stem-with-expander-plug/p/156347?color=230107-156347&searchText=20017-1502&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsPX3gu3b6AIV3v_jBx1aFwgZEAQYAiAB EgIbV_D_BwE

Sorry I'm terrible bored right now :)

[Monsieur Toast]

Controltech Timania Handelbars and Stems?

Always wanted to ride a bike where the cockpit cost more than the frame, ha!

For $35 I'll be starting with the Uno Stealth to make sure I've at least got the fit right. And then if I ever swap it out for looks or sizing, there are some great options in this thread I never knew of before.

[duff_duffy]

Could always use this poor mans version of titanium. Have a 110 one might sell soon!

[charliedid]

I'll save you $20 but it has logos. PM if interested It's 11cm not 12

[54ny77]

that serotta seatpost is great! is that oem? opens up a lot of stem options if your'e going with that. hard to find an all carbon or alu.-wrapped carbon stem to match the fiber profile though. ritchey's older wcs stem was kind of like that. what size stem do you use? i might have one in a box somewhere, it's probably a 110.

that deda looks great in terms of coming close to matching the finish of the head tube if your'e trying to keep a similar color profile. gotta go with matching seat post though!

moots stems & posts look the best (or a firefly or erikson) but yeah they're all quite a few bucks. occasionally can find for sale here at a decent price.

i say go with whatever ya like and enjoy that frame! congrats on joining the club.

as for bars, i vote to go with whatever you like in terms of bend/shape.

Could always use this poor mans version of titanium. Have a 110 one might sell soon!

[macaroon]

6 degree stems with a level top tube don't really work aesthetically, so regardless of which stem you choose, it's not going to look as good as it should.

Needs a -10 degree stem or greater really.

[Monsieur Toast]

I've got level top tube and parallel stem on my two steel rides, but this Ottrott has a subtle sloping top tube. The build sheet says 2 degrees. It's also a little smaller frame than what I'd normally ride, and the fork was cut for a slammed stem, so I'm going to need some positive degrees to get the handlebars high enough to make it work with my wonky back.

That Specialized S-Works stem, along with a few of the others, might have a good sheen to them to match the carbon tubes. I'll probably investigate post Kalloy Uno.

I'm assuming the Serotta seat post is OEM. It has logos on the sides and back, carbon fiber and titanium match the rest of the frame. I might have to drop it a smidge more which will cover the "S" in "Serotta" ... which kinda sucks.

[pdmtong]

I've got level top tube and parallel stem on my two steel rides, but this Ottrott has a subtle sloping top tube. The build sheet says 2 degrees. It's also a little smaller frame than what I'd normally ride, and the fork was cut for a slammed stem, so I'm going to need some positive degrees to get the handlebars high enough to make it work with my wonky back.

That Specialized S-Works stem, along with a few of the others, might have a good sheen to them to match the carbon tubes. I'll probably investigate post Kalloy Uno.

I'm assuming the Serotta seat post is OEM. It has logos on the sides and back, carbon fiber and titanium match the rest of the frame. I might have to drop it a smidge more which will cover the "S" in "Serotta" ... which kinda sucks.

1) hover bar?
2) scratch the "s" and resale value drops

[Monsieur Toast]

1) hover bar?
2) scratch the "s" and resale value drops

1) Hover bar: The Canyon ones (eek!), or the riser bars from Specialized?
2) Had the same thought. Just checked though and it turns out the graphics are under a clear coat. Maybe not the end of the world.

[pdmtong]

1) Hover bar: The Canyon ones (eek!), or the riser bars from Specialized?
2) Had the same thought. Just checked though and it turns out the graphics are under a clear coat. Maybe not the end of the world.

3) get a new fork.

[happycampyer]

3) get a new fork.Bingo.

For a while, before I had the Ottrott painted white, I had a black 3T stem on the bike.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LnzPRZT/0/81e43be0/X2/i-LnzPRZT-X2.jpg

Given the rarity of those seatposts, I would sell it before risking marring the logos. You can get any number of seatposts to work with that frame.

[Monsieur Toast]

Ayup, I had casually searched for a Reynolds Ouzo Pro Fork when I first got the frame but couldn't find anything that was long enough, with correct rake & color.

Will cross the bridge to a new fork & seat post if I can't make this current setup work. And will make sure not to scratch the letters on my Serotta post!

@happycampyer, do you have a build thread for your Ottrott before you painted it white? And what's that seat post there ... if I replace the seat post it'll be for a setback one and that one is gorgeous.

[pdmtong]

That would be a $360 Moots cinch layback
https://shop.moots.com/products/moots-layback-cinch-post?variant=51363622

[happycampyer]

Yep. A PMP ti post with a black head would also look great on an Ottrott with nude carbon tubes. Picks up the alternating ti and black.

[Monsieur Toast]

3) get a new fork.

Bingo.


Okay, I've had a chance to slap on & flip a 7 degree 110mm stem on the frame and it fits pretty well ... but a flipped 7 degree stem ain't my favorite look and the fit could be better.

I've got the original Serotta/Reynolds F2 IT fork on it right now. 43mm rake and 240mm steerer length, with a 175.8mm head tube. Seems like I'd be happier with something closer to 300mm steerer length, but saw online the Reynolds Ouzo Pro shouldn't have more than 30mm of spacers.

If I go down the rabbit hole of a new (to me) fork, does anyone have any input or advice? I'm guessing I'm angling for a Reynolds Ouzo Pro, but this ain't my realm of expertise. Just want something that looks right and fits better.

[duff_duffy]

I recently bought a whole bike just to get a fork. It’s a fun rabbit hole to explore!

Measure the steerer tube and remember to add the length of cups and spacers and all that stuff...Ask me how I know;)


Okay, I've had a chance to slap on & flip a 7 degree 110mm stem on the frame and it fits pretty well ... but a flipped 7 degree stem ain't my favorite look and the fit could be better.

I've got the original Serotta/Reynolds F2 IT fork on it right now. 43mm rake and 240mm steerer length, with a 175.8mm head tube. Seems like I'd be happier with something closer to 300mm steerer length, but saw online the Reynolds Ouzo Pro shouldn't have more than 30mm of spacers.

If I go down the rabbit hole of a new (to me) fork, does anyone have any input or advice? I'm guessing I'm angling for a Reynolds Ouzo Pro, but this ain't my realm of expertise. Just want something that looks right and fits better.

[pdmtong]

if 240 is the steerer length stem slammed

Add 40mm for a max spacer stack.

Add 10mm from a bar that rises form the stem to the flats

That gets you within 10mm of your target.

Don't forget to leave 5-10mm above the stem.

So what fork allows 40mm spacer stack? I def would NOT go ouzo pro since those were made md-2000's.

Whisky?
Enve?
Falz?
Ask Mile Lopez to make you a custom fork?

For your fit, you need to pay to play. Is it worth it? Is Ottrott your dream bike? I liked mine, but sold it. Lot's of other choices.

[Monsieur Toast]

I recently bought a whole bike just to get a fork. It’s a fun rabbit hole to explore!

No ... no ... nooooo. Don't help enable a bad thought I've already had.


So what fork allows 40mm spacer stack? I def would NOT go ouzo pro since those were made md-2000's.

Whisky?
Enve?
Falz?
Ask Mile Lopez to make you a custom fork?

For your fit, you need to pay to play. Is it worth it? Is Ottrott your dream bike? I liked mine, but sold it. Lot's of other choices.

The Whisky, Enve & Falz forks are all cool, but the finish isn't right (in my book) for this Ottrott. Regarding a custom fork, that's a route I'm only interested in if it comes with a custom frame.

Not sure that an Ottrott is my dream bike as I haven't gotten to ride it yet, but part of the draw is the look and styling. So let's say I want to keep that mid-00's carbon weave look going, is a Reynolds Ouzo Pro the "gold standard" in this particular case? If max spacer stack for an Ouzo Pro is 30mm – correct? or what's a better/safer figure – then that gets me a lot closer to where I want to be.

Best bet (for now) might be to build up the bike with a flipped stem and see whether or not it rides like a "dream bike." If it does, pursue a 270mm steerer Ouzo Pro unless there's another fork recommendation that similarly matches the frame?

[SoCalSteve]

No ... no ... nooooo. Don't help enable a bad thought I've already had.




The Whisky, Enve & Falz forks are all cool, but the finish isn't right (in my book) for this Ottrott. Regarding a custom fork, that's a route I'm only interested in if it comes with a custom frame.

Not sure that an Ottrott is my dream bike as I haven't gotten to ride it yet, but part of the draw is the look and styling. So let's say I want to keep that mid-00's carbon weave look going, is a Reynolds Ouzo Pro the "gold standard" in this particular case? If max spacer stack for an Ouzo Pro is 30mm – correct? or what's a better/safer figure – then that gets me a lot closer to where I want to be.

Best bet (for now) might be to build up the bike with a flipped stem and see whether or not it rides like a "dream bike." If it does, pursue a 270mm steerer Ouzo Pro unless there's another fork recommendation that similarly matches the frame?

Reach out to Mike Lopez. He may have what you are looking for. Good luck!

[Monsieur Toast]

Reach out to Mike Lopez. He may have what you are looking for. Good luck!

Is there a good way to reach out to Mike Lopez other than the generic contact form on the Action Composites website? Thanks!

[uber]

There is a Moots 110 stem on the Classifieds today!!!

[Monsieur Toast]

Thankfully the finish on the Moots stem doesn't match my frame (is what I keep telling myself).

Going to just bite the bullet and build this thing up as is once I track down some handlebars. See if I can coerce my back into riding a frame with an extra 2" of drop between the saddle and bars.

[happycampyer]

I bought a few F3 forks from the factory before Serotta closed, and have been saving them as spares in case anything happened to the ones I have. I also have an Enve fork in the rare 3K weave with 27mm of steerer. If you can't get ahold of Mike, pm me. Fwiw, the polished Firefly finish is closer to the finish on your Ottrott...

[Ianus]

Ritchey 4-axis WCS

[Latestart]

Lynskey makes a slender Ti stem... and seat post for that matter.

https://lynskeyperformance.com/lynskey-titanium-stem-6-degrees/

Who makes the seat post - it's pretty sweet!

[Monsieur Toast]

Oh, right, "spend my money" he says .... and ends up going with an Easton EA70 stem as generously gifted by charliedid for the mere price of shipping.

I've got about 150 miles in the saddle so far and will definitely need to change the stem & handlebars at some point. Maybe the fork too. I'd really like a professional fit to help get this dialed in, but Death Virus is making that less than feasible ...

Anywho, cool story. Here's a photo of the ride as it stands now. Fscking love this bike!

http://zerominuszero.net/000/bici/Ottrott_1stRide.jpg

[Latestart]

That looks the business...

Is that seatpost something that is 'findable' or do the hoarders have all the copies in their boxes of unobtainium...

John

[akelman]

An Ottrott remains one of the two or three best riding bikes I've ever owned, and yours looks stunning. I hope it carries you for many happy miles.

[Monsieur Toast]

That looks the business...

Is that seatpost something that is 'findable' or do the hoarders have all the copies in their boxes of unobtainium...

John

Thanks for the compliment. The frame came with an original Serotta seatpost that kept slipping, so I jumped on eBay and was lucky to find that older, essentially unused Synchros post for relatively cheap. I don't think they're super desirable.


An Ottrott remains one of the two or three best riding bikes I've ever owned, and yours looks stunning. I hope it carries you for many happy miles.

Honestly, I bought into the Ottrott hype because of the forum but didn't expect miracles as I've already got a custom Della Santa (and a nice CSi as well). Pretty much figured I was near the pinnacle for best riding bikes. I love my Della Santa, but .... the Ottrott has really shocked me with the ride quality. Out of curiosity, what else is at the top of your list?

[akelman]

Honestly, I bought into the Ottrott hype because of the forum but didn't expect miracles as I've already got a custom Della Santa (and a nice CSi as well). Pretty much figured I was near the pinnacle for best riding bikes. I love my Della Santa, but .... the Ottrott has really shocked me with the ride quality. Out of curiosity, what else is at the top of your list?

Believe the hype! I had a Vanilla cross bike that was absolutely aces at everything it did. I had a Kirk JKS Special that was also stellar across the board, though it didn't fit me perfectly. And I had a Speedvagen road machine that made even me seem like a decent rider. None of the above came close to descending like the Ottrott. I also could ride the Ottrott for hours and hours comfortably. A truly fantastic bike.

[54ny77]

After a long time, I think I am finally starting to recognize the feel of the ST pivot points on my Ottrott, esp having recently spent a lot of time in saddle the past few weekends (3-5 hour rides). It's very subtle.

Get a lot of compliments on the road too, it's a pretty darned awesome frame/bike.

Believe the hype! I had a Vanilla cross bike that was absolutely aces at everything it did. I had a Kirk JKS Special that was also stellar across the board, though it didn't fit me perfectly. And I had a Speedvagen road machine that made even me seem like a decent rider. None of the above came close to descending like the Ottrott. I also could ride the Ottrott for hours and hours comfortably. A truly fantastic bike.

[Latestart]

https://www.cyclingabout.com/seatposts-overlooked-yet-critical-for-cycling-comfort/

A good seatpost is the key to achieving a comfortable ride. That’s because along with your tyres, seatposts actually make up the bulk of your bike’s comfort – in fact, according to the data available, a well-designed carbon seatpost flexes at a rate 100x greater than a steel frame.

The Ergon CF3 carbon seatpost requires 69N of force to flex one vertical millimetre (0.04″). In comparison, a typical bike frame may require more than 7000N of force to flex one vertical millimetre, demonstrating how much a seatpost (and how little a frame) plays in the comfort equation.

In short, flex seatposts are a great way to achieve a super comfortable ride as they:
(a) Reduce high-frequency road vibrations, and;
(b) Take care of the bigger impacts (think rough dirt roads) thanks to their 20mm+ (0.89″) of vertical flex.

In this article, we will discuss the different seatpost types and materials, before looking at the difference between vibration damping and seatpost deflection. We’ll then check out some of the lab testing that’s been completed and will finish up with my seatpost recommendations.

Note: This article was originally published July 2015, but has been updated in May 2019.

Carbon Seatpost Options

Cannondale SAVE – My overall pick, a great performer for both vibration damping and absorbing big hits – $199 on Amazon
Canyon S13 VCLS – 2nd best deflection results, good at max insertion, great for lighter riders – US $170
Canyon VCLS 2.0 – Best deflection/damping results, great at max insertion, well-suited to lighter riders – US $299
Ergon CF3 – The same post as the VCLS 2.0 as it’s a shared product between companies – US $299
FSA K-Force – The Velo Magazine best-tested seatpost for vibration damping, great for road riding – $199 on Amazon
Ritchey WCS Carbon Flexlogic – Decent deflection results, great at damping vibrations, lightweight – $199 on Amazon
Specialized CG-R – The Specialized CG-R may be the go for heavier riders with its heavy spring rate – US $199
Syntace P6 Carbon Hi-Flex – 3rd best deflection results, but doesn’t perform well at max insertion – $198 on Amazon


And this one, related:

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/five-soft-riding-road-seatposts-tested-in-the-lab-and-on-the-road/

[huck*this]

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/101014097_988466411570355_1719113350882787328_o.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQmDHf704rP9b7B5ljJe-6zujoHA4ausgxpJv1uyi0Asu_-TZ8XbFDReQwnP6-oKj34&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=934525ae012f79d59bb26b12fbc6454d&oe=5EF54ADA

Nuff said. Best looking stem and group on the market.