does ithave tp be so complex? (doping)

[swoop]

i think they should start over. every rider should be given a clean slate and history. to be in the uci you need a dna sample. blood should be taken after each race and tested in a uci lab, a neutral lab, and the riders home lab.
the procedures should be clear, simple, and easy to recreate. any failure in procedure invalidates the test and the lab gets penalized.
the punishments should go all the way to the sponsors.

just start over. the sport needs confidence in it's riders but that can't happen with all the procedural crap. doping has been endemic to the sport so in a way, every rider is guilty and also a victim.

just start a new way.. but include everyone. dna from the start. accurate testing with simple clear procedure and a triple blind process

.....
i went to go see my doc last week. we we're laughing at governor arnold because he's looking at a host of health issues from steroid abuse. and my doc was talking about how often guys like me are doped in his practice. just gym dopers.. middle aged dudes trying to look hot. let alone weekend athletes. it's almost an epidemic at my level...

but, i find this procedural legal process and dope test system to be so flawed. can't we start over?

*all rants from me are dyslexic. read them backwards if they don't make sense.

[dauwhe]

This could be the most sensible thing I've read about doping in a long time...

Dave

[atmo]

we we're laughing at governor arnold because he's looking at a host of health issues from steroid abuse.

two words (http://imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) atmo -

[swoop]

two words (http://imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) atmo -
the poor guy has some rough years ahead ofhim. lots of health problems and broken bones to come...

[atmo]

the poor guy has some rough years ahead ofhim. lots of health problems and broken bones to come...
they should start over.
politicians should fork over dna atmo.

[swoop]

they should start over.
politicians should fork over dna atmo.

they don't have dna. they aren't human. i think politicians come from uranus.

[atmo]

they don't have dna. they aren't human. i think politicians come from uranus.
are you hitting on me atmo?

[BdaGhisallo]

Swoop,

The only flaw I can see in your plan is the cost. If you are planning to take a blood sample from every rider after every race, and have it tested in three different labs, you are looking at a HUGE bill. If you were apply this to a handful of randomly chosen riders, as is done now, I think it would be a lot more workable and affordable.

That's the very easy part. The hard part would be getting all the parties in the process - and I mean the enforcement authorities and the governing bodies - to respect the rules, especially those they drafted and approved.

The mention on cyclingnews today that Puerto-implicated riders - not proven and convicted dopers, mind you, just implicated by circumstantial evidence no matter how flimsy - might not be allowed entry into the Tour this year is precisely what I mean.

It makes me sick! It is readily apparent, to me at least, that the cure for the sport's doping problem is increasingly worse than the disease!

[swoop]

are you hitting on me atmo?


bats eye lashes... your bottle does feel the right size in my hands, atmo.

[swoop]

ghisallo.. good points. it just feels like the system isn't set up to actually do anything except create an unprofessional atmosphere and sell newspapers. the point doesn't seem like its about protecting the riders (from themselves), or creating fair play in sport.
as for expense.. it becomes a matter of..can they afford not to. i'd rather see teams of 5 .. and not 8.. a smaller pro peleton and better controls.

it is the perfect sport..it doesn't need to be big.. it just needs to be good. hell, inmy mind the calander can stop at the end of spring!

[shanerpvt]

DNA sample = Gattaca

hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube.

[Serpico]

DNA sample = Gattaca

hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube.
I was just thinking of that film while reading brave new world this afternoon

[swoop]

DNA sample = Gattaca

hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube.

yup. but the world doesn't need pro sports. look.. the stuff i've had to do to be a doctor. notes everyday, incredible ethical obligations. if i don't like them i can choose another field. if you want fair sport you have to accept the reality of cheating. they've got my fingerprints.... all kinds of stuff.

and while yes... your dna seqeunce should be private info.. do you really think it is? you know, diagnosis is private.. so i don't know how it is the drug companies managed to send samples to patients diagnosed with depressive disorders... i'm not talking about fighting privacy.. but i am talkign about being adult about the conversation that deals with the illusion of privacy.
things aren't private these days. the tooth paste left the tube a long long time ago. it's just very un-nerving admitting it. frankly. blame the advertising industry.
disable cookies lately?

*edit... i have some friends that go through so much sacrifice as pro bikers. can't even plan a vacation without letting the wada know where they are with an itenerary. they don't make millions.. just sort of every day pros.. $30k on a great year. the sacrifice and intrusion into ones life is severe... on top of the training and crap hotels.
but we are talking about the credibility of a sport that the media can only market and sell around doping issues.
these are blacn and white times.

[Climb01742]

Gattaca

great flick. even better soundtrack. but i digress.

[Climb01742]

blame the advertising industry.

hey...

[shanerpvt]

yup. but the world doesn't need pro sports. look.. the stuff i've had to do to be a doctor. notes everyday, incredible ethical obligations. if i don't like them i can choose another field. if you want fair sport you have to accept the reality of cheating. they've got my fingerprints.... all kinds of stuff.

and while yes... your dna seqeunce should be private info.. do you really think it is? you know, diagnosis is private.. so i don't know how it is the drug companies managed to send samples to patients diagnosed with depressive disorders... i'm not talking about fighting privacy.. but i am talkign about being adult about the conversation that deals with the illusion of privacy.
things aren't private these days. the tooth paste left the tube a long long time ago. it's just very un-nerving admitting it. frankly. blame the advertising industry.
disable cookies lately?

That’s the toothpaste I was referring to. I just think it is a slippery slop ethically.

It’s a shame. It is very American to accomplish things we shouldn’t be able to (both individually and collectively). Many examples in history.

[swoop]

hey...
woops. did i say that?

[swoop]

i want to make two global changes this year. 1) everyone on the forum looking the part with small bottles, and 2) keep it simple.

[AgilisMerlin]

?

[BBB]

The answer to the question posed by this thread is no; if the riders who do dope stop, then you have no problem.

[Ginger]

Whoa...I've been kicked off the forum by swoop!

I'm not giving up my large bottles. Nanner nanner.

How will you know? What are you going to do about it? Ban me from riding? Or just ban me from this forum?

But I *need* my large water bottles to be able to ride the distances people expect of me!

(Is simple: no dna test, no race?)

[swoop]

The answer to the question posed by this thread is no; if the riders who do dope stop, then you have no problem.


the riders are the smallest part ofthe problem. a bit like the part of the iceberg you can see. the riders are just dudes trying to make a living....

[swoop]

Whoa...I've been kicked off the forum by swoop!

I'm not giving up my large bottles. Nanner nanner.

How will you know? What are you going to do about it? Ban me from riding? Or just ban me from this forum?

But I *need* my large water bottles to be able to ride the distances people expect of me!

(Is simple: no dna test, no race?)

MA.. you get an exemption until you figure out this distance issue. ride longer with smaller bottles. be sexy and the rest will follow.

[atmo]

be sexy and the rest will follow.
and colorful atmo -

[BBB]

the riders are the smallest part ofthe problem. a bit like the part of the iceberg you can see. the riders are just dudes trying to make a living....

Sure, but if there was no doping, there would be no problem.

[atmo]

Sure, but if there was no doping, there would be no problem.
and mebbe no governors (http://imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) in cali either atmo.

[BBB]

Is it bad acting or doping that qualifies one for that job?

[swoop]

i guess what i am saying is 100% amnesty this year. but dna and encourage a soul cleansing reportage of past deeds.. in order to establish a base.

or something naive like that.

[link]

the riders are the smallest part of the problem.

...a 'bit like penalizing fashion models that fall below a minimum BMI.

Maybe a more effective way to attack the problem in a way that will bring an end to this crazy mess is to first follow the money.

What do I know? This is just a study break for me.

[swoop]

deep throat?

[link]

I have the keys to their HQ office.

We need a plan.

Meet me at the 14th street bridge on the White Hearst Freeway side.


http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/watergate-complex.jpg

[1centaur]

While I share swoop's instinct for the simplicity and resolution of "starting clean," reality intrudes in several specific ways to make that dream impossible.

The three most cursed professions are lawyers, politicians (sports bureaucrats among them) and the media, all of whom come together in a confluence around doping. These forces create confusion and uncertainty out of proportion to a rational reading of the facts. Thus today we have the never helpful "burn the witch" approach to doping regulation with the credulous, non-judgmentally equipped media puffing oxygen at lawyers who sew doubt much better than they illuminate truth and politicians basking in the hypocritical glow. Cycling fans throw up their hands and wonder when or if they will ever get to root for athletes and enjoy the sport they want it to be.

The linchpin to clearing the smoke and making EVERYBODY happy is a fairly conceived, fairly administered, transparently checkable, innocent FOR REAL until proven guilty, swift system of justice. This is swoop's hope. Standing in its path - the same people mucking it up now.

Two factors are needed to break the logjam: money, and character. Money to pay for enough tests and enough redudancy and enough testing controls that nobody can legitimately dispute the data. And character enough to hold back the burn the witch tide and personally see to it that every i is dotted and every t is crossed, with intellect and passion to spare.

The money has to come from sponsors, one way or another, a la T-Mobile and CSC's theoretical determination to go above and beyond. This means the era of cement companies and sausage makers sponsoring pro teams must end. Is cycling a big enough sport to justify big sponsors. It's marginal, and ironically if it is we can thank Lance for notching it up in the big money US.

The character - that's the biggest nut to crack, because I see nothing but cretins in the leadership roles.

Finally, all protestations aside, OP has yet to really play out at the sports federation level - it has just been delayed. We can't start clean and then have all the top stars incriminated in 6 months. The sport senses this will happen, thus the mouth foaming about Ulrich and Basso. They may be right, but they don't have the class to sit back and let the wheels of justice turn slowly, so they shoot themselves in the foot by damning the sport whille they wait.

It will be a long time, I think, before we can do other than equiovocate and watch with half our hearts.

[stevep]

on swoops large bottle controversy.

pro riders hate and would never use a large bottle.
one race i was feeding a pro on my team and he was in a large group with 5 other of my riders.
he was sitting last in the group meaning i had to hand out 5 bottles very quickly before he got his.
all good, i got the 5 bottles at 25 mph ...
paully came by and the last bottle i had mixed was a large one.
gave it to him... he rode about 20 meters and threw it away.
this, from a guy who was thirsty.
i could not quite grasp this until the stage was over...
hes yelling at me for making him look like a f'ing tourist.
state of mind swoop. state of mind.
next day- no bottles from me- screw 'im. he wasnt riding that great anyway.
last word.
" sorry paully, i ran out of bottles..."

[atmo]

p mac atmo?

[stevep]

p mac atmo?

natch,
we still laugh about it.
s
come to the dinner.

[atmo]

natch,
we still laugh about it.
s
come to the dinner.
gotta pass. yuck.
i'm heavy into driving miss debbie mode atmo...

[Ginger]

on swoops large bottle controversy.


hes yelling at me for making him look like a f'ing tourist.



But I AM a f'ing tourist.

Well...maybe if I work on the sexy the f'ing part will come around...

but I AM a tourist.

(did nobody catch the original parody...or did they just ignore it...*sigh*)

[CNY rider]

on swoops large bottle controversy.

pro riders hate and would never use a large bottle.
one race i was feeding a pro on my team and he was in a large group with 5 other of my riders.
he was sitting last in the group meaning i had to hand out 5 bottles very quickly before he got his.
all good, i got the 5 bottles at 25 mph ...
paully came by and the last bottle i had mixed was a large one.
gave it to him... he rode about 20 meters and threw it away.
this, from a guy who was thirsty.
i could not quite grasp this until the stage was over...
hes yelling at me for making him look like a f'ing tourist.
state of mind swoop. state of mind.
next day- no bottles from me- screw 'im. he wasnt riding that great anyway.
last word.
" sorry paully, i ran out of bottles..."


I really enjoy this board because most of the people here are mature enough to not give a rat's a** that a pro cyclist finds a tall water bottle embarassing.............

[atmo]

But I AM a f'ing tourist.

Well...maybe if I work on the sexy the f'ing part will come around...

but I AM a tourist.

(did nobody catch the original parody...or did they just ignore it...*sigh*)
catch it?
i tested positive for it atmo.

[manet]

But I AM a f'ing tourist.

Well...maybe if I work on the sexy the f'ing part will come around...

but I AM a tourist.

(did nobody catch the original parody...or did they just ignore it...*sigh*)

my blackberry alarm just buzzed

[davids]

http://www.specialized.com/media/equip/04WaterbottleBigMouth_d.jpg > http://www.specialized.com/media/equip/06bottles_LBM_wst_d.jpg

QED, atmo.

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=big+gulp&word2=regular

[Ginger]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=drugs&word2=dna

I understand the drive for competition, but I don't understand doping in the non-professional world. That's just sad that people turn to drugs rather than compete on their own merits.

And the middle aged guys trying to look hot...don't they understand they look a lot like they're doping? (hard to explain, but you can pick them out at the bars...and in the gym)

.
...and my doc was talking about how often guys like me are doped in his practice. just gym dopers.. middle aged dudes trying to look hot. let alone weekend athletes. it's almost an epidemic at my level...

[atmo]

either way, ya' win (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ginger&word2=mary+ann) atmo.

[swoop]

.

[Ginger]

Well...I was going to ask what the difference between guys doping to succeed in sports and women my age (and younger) getting breast augmentation and other cosmetic surgeries just to...um...compete with the younger crowd and why some people think one is wrong and the other is perfectly acceptable...or if the acceptance of the one lead to the acceptance of the other...

But I guess I won't

[swoop]

Well...I was going to ask what the difference between guys doping to succeed in sports and women my age (and younger) getting breast augmentation and other cosmetic surgeries just to...um...compete with the younger crowd and why some people think one is wrong and the other is perfectly acceptable...or if the acceptance of the one lead to the acceptance of the other...

But I guess I won't

2 breasts per person is plenty. 3 is absolutely cheating.

did i mention that i went on two dates with the three breasted mutant woman (lycia) from that film total recall... so when i say three is too many... i speak from experience. 2 or less is titular!

[Ginger]

So that whole man breast thing is ok as long as they only have two?

[swoop]

stevep... you wanna handle this one? i think our ginger is ready to watch the director's cut of fight club.

[stevep]

$10 gets you the definitive answer.
cc# here.

quickly..i might forget.

[soulspinner]

But I AM a f'ing tourist.

Well...maybe if I work on the sexy the f'ing part will come around...

but I AM a tourist.

(did nobody catch the original parody...or did they just ignore it...*sigh*)


You have the right attitude-the right attitude IS sexy...the most beautiful woman I ever dated bored me to breakup-ride on.

[onekgguy]

speaking of blood doping...

roll the video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eeAQu9I0wfM)

Kevin

[Too Tall]

Swoop why give them a pass at all? And more to the point establishment of a singluarity ("The System") for testing will stifle innovation and advancement in testing methods for all the obvious reasons. Better to wag the dog I'd say!

Try this on for size....teams must bond for 1 million long green. At risk is the entire kit n' kaboodle that will go to...you guessed it...funding for testing and enforcement. End of the season the team is off the hook 100% COB of the FY with NO "look back" clause. A level playing field.

[Samster]

catch it?
i tested positive for it atmo.
right here (http://www.trojangames.com/video_highlights.shtml) .

[harlond]

Swoop why give them a pass at all? And more to the point establishment of a singluarity ("The System") for testing will stifle innovation and advancement in testing methods for all the obvious reasons. Better to wag the dog I'd say!

Try this on for size....teams must bond for 1 million long green. At risk is the entire kit n' kaboodle that will go to...you guessed it...funding for testing and enforcement. End of the season the team is off the hook 100% COB of the FY with NO "look back" clause. A level playing field.Probably won't keep the lawyers and courts out of it. And with people like McQuaid and Pound in the show, and that much money at stake, well, that's an invitation for disaster.

One of the more significant problems with anti-doping efforts is the insistence on stiff and ever-increasing penalties. It seems logical--and it plays well in the press--that more severe punishment will reduce the incidence of offense, but it never or almost never does. When every doping offense, even your first, entails what amounts to a career-ending penalty, you're bound to get both intense efforts to conceal the infraction and expensive efforts to defeat the penalty. The system would be vastly improved (certainly as a public relations effort, which when you get down to it is the primary purpose that antidoping systems really serve) if it included a set of graduated penalties that were fairly light for a first offense.

[stevep]

trivia note.
**** pound was ben jonsons attorney in his olympic dope case.
couldnt get him off at the time.

the canadian mafia ( grant macclean is reportedly a member*)

* cant talk about it though