The Saddle Fore/Aft Puzzle

[Peter P.]

I've long pondered what is the correct fore/aft saddle position for me.

From all I've read and observed, cycling is predominantly a quadriceps exercise. Or to put it another way, the quads are the prime mover in the power phase of the stroke (the downstroke, from 2-4 o'clock).

I liked my saddle position where it was, but didn't feel like the quads were actually engaged as much as what I expected. I could feel my hamstrings more.

To be sure, I'm a better runner than a cyclist, which could account for the above, and one thing I wonder is, could some cyclists be more "hamstring pedalers" vs. "quad pedalers"?

So I'm experimenting with my position. Logic seems to be that moving the saddle forward will engage the quads more, so I began moving my saddle forward.

What I found is, and you can go ahead and call me nuts, but I found that in the space of moving my saddle forward, all of a sudden I move it 1mm forward and BAM! I can now feel my quads doing something. And I'm coming home from 2hr. LSD rides and my quads are feeling somewhat toasted.

But it's also obvious to me that I can no longer feel my hamstrings or glutes contributing, especially riding seated up a grade.

The total fore/aft saddle change for me was 3-5mm max.

So what are your opinions regarding saddle fore/aft? Should the quads dominate? Is there such a thing as a hamstring pedaler? Am I nuts that I feel that change in the space of 1mm? Anything else?

I'm trying to decide whether to leave my position as-is and see if it adapts to the quad-dominant position or to move it back to where I presume there's more sharing of the workload with the hamstrings and glutes.

[Clancy]

Also interested. I’m happy with my current position but like the OP keep pondering.

I’ve always used the method of riding up a moderate grade and adjusting the set-back so I feel minimal weight on my hands. I’ll first get it in the ballpark, then do repeat rides adjusting the saddle forward or back 1-2 mm until I get it right.

This has always seemed to work. Better methods?

[kiwisimon]

OP, are you still predominantly a runner? If yes then a further forward saddle position would probably help. There is a reason why triathletes swing forward and it's not just about getting aero.

[oldpotatoe]

Give TiDesigns a shout..it's what he does..

[eddief]

try a little bit of saddle nose up or down. i moved mine up a couple of mm and took a surprising amount of weight off my hands and found much better weight balance to be really comfortable...for me. on my Roubaix i tried everything to get comfortable and i've gotten comfort on a zillion bikes over the years. the Roubaix had me baffled through at least 8 stem reach and rise combinations. at some point it dawned on me that maybe my hands ached cuz my whole body was being forced down by saddle tilt. the mind blower was the amount of difference in comfort and balance i got by just up a couple of mm.

[Dave]

Since I do a lot of climbing, I keep my saddle back with a 25mm setback post with the saddle rails positioned behind the center of available travel. I think that it helps to recruit the glutes and improves my climbing.

I also follow the Dave Kirk idea of getting my body balanced over the saddle to keep the weight off my hands.

That said, most of the bikes I've owned have STAs of 74-74.5 degrees. Few small frames are made with a 73.

[Black Dog]

Double post.

[Black Dog]

TiDesigns really knows his stuff, just as old spud said. Also David Kirk has posted a really good description of how to find your saddle set back dynamically.

[cuda]

This may be an old fashioned concept so please forgive me for being out of touch.
This is my standard
I set my seat so that when I am centered on the saddle the front of my knee is
is at 90° to the peddle spindle at 9 o'clock. This seems to be a system that has worked flawlessly for me. I do move around on the saddle slightly. Mainly when climbing I sit back a bit.

Ultimately, I believe that there is no set rule for anything regarding bike fit we all have different physiques, histories and flexibility as well as what and where we ride.

[Smitty2k1]

I'm a fairly new cyclist and have struggled with bike fit on all 3 of my bikes (Giant Hybrid, Jamis Aurora touring bike, and now a Black Mountain Road+) and with a variety of saddles (Brooks B17, C15, WTB Volt, Spec Power). Can't find the right combination of saddle tilt, fore/aft, shape, reach, etc. to get a good balance of taking pressure off my hands without my toes and feet going numb.

My current adjustments have me thinking I've been riding with too high/too far back a saddle and with my foot position too far back on the pedals (using too much of my "toes" to pedal). Experimenting with a lower saddle height and also got SPD shoes and putting the cleats towards the back.

[unterhausen]

If you have no idea, and aren't going to go get a fitting, try the method that Peter White describes on his website. I think it works better for people with low core strength https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

[Elefantino]

I've found the same, after much experimenting. I have a dead sacral spinal nerve in my right leg, and very little calf muscle. I tried many things, but moving my saddle forward on a zero setback seatpost gave me access to more power (such as it is) from the quad.

Would also be interested in TiDesigns' take.

[chunkylover53]

This is timely. I generally don’t have many problems, but persistent numbness in my left hand is getting frustrating (especially after, say, a bikepacking trip where numbness can linger for a month or longer). I did recently get a fit, but wasn’t terribly happy with results (noticed uptick in knee pain). A key takeaway was that my saddle was too far back. Perhaps that change, and change in cleat position, were causes of new discomfort. But today I’m going to experiment with fore/aft saddle position. Not much else to do!

[cmg]

my goal was to take weigh off my hands. leveled saddle, moved it back, weight of hands but feet went numb or had hot spots, moved cleats back towards middle of shoe relieved the issue. all connections points will have to be looked at.

[slowpoke]

If you have no idea, and aren't going to go get a fitting, try the method that Peter White describes on his website. I think it works better for people with low core strength https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

Steve Hogg also mentions this: seat set back for road bikes (https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/)

Along with Dave Kirk - https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=239036

I agree that if you have decent core strength, it's not the most clear indicator.

[Toeclips]

+1 for the knee over the axle of the pedal when the pedal is at the three o clock position

Also, I used to have my foot position pointing forward, that would put stress on my knees.
So I read somewhere to sit on the edge of your bed where your feet can dangle and you will notice the natural angle of your feet.
I adjusted my cleats so my feet point slightly outward "toe them out" just ever so slightly and that seems to have helped

[dddd]

Usually (depending on the saddle rails angle) the saddle needs to be raised with any movement forward, this to maintain the same leg extension.

Saddle and handlebar positioning should both move forward together, assuming the distance is starting out correct. Handlebars also need to be lowered with any forward movement since the rider's entire body is rotating forward about the bottom bracket.

I go faster with a more forward saddle if I can stay comfortable, with torso relaxed, with neck still comfortable and with no excess of pushing force through my hands. I can be more aero without having to tighten the angle between my torso and legs.

A forward saddle also reduces the effort/time required to transition to the standing position, which spares the momentary loss of speed that occurs when having to rise off the saddle on steeper climbs.

Moving the rider's body forward typically helps improve steering stability at all but very slow speeds.
The down side is that the steering may feel heavier when having to change direction. I really did notice this on my Colnago CX-Zero when I increased stem length from 100 to 110mm, this bike's previous cornering agility was noticeably reduced, though it must be said that I did not move the saddle forward quite the full 10mm that I increased the stem's length.

Beware also that different brands of stems apparently have different definitions of a stem's length, some are 4-5mm off from other brands or from what is correct. I have attached a row of stems to a single steerer and could see quite clearly that some of the ostensibly same-sized stems had different lengths.

[tv_vt]

First I think you need to set a point of reference. Do you know what your setback is, starting out? Drop a plumb line from tip of saddle down below the chainstay and measure the distance from BB back to the plumb line. There's your starting point. Mine happens to be around 9.5cm (I'm 6-2).

I'd frankly be surprised if a 1mm change was noticeable, but that's what you say.

To me, the farther back your saddle/greater your setback, the more you use your quads. It's all pushing down. Moving saddle forward (to me) starts to balance things out a bit, bringing your backside into play more.

The other factor is seat height. That works in tandem with setback. Less setback and higher saddle height really gets more of your whole body/legs/glutes/core into the game IMO. But too little setback hurts your climbing, which does put your quads to work more.

FWIW, some of my thoughts, after years of playing around with this (my setback has ranged from 13cm down to maybe 9cm or so). Happy with the setup now on the shorter side of things.

Lots of setback also makes you feel like you're falling off the back of your bike on seated climbs.

[Peter P.]

OP, are you still predominantly a runner?...


Not any more, but with a long history of running, hiking, and walking, I just feel perhaps my body is used to recruiting the hamstrings and glutes vs. the quads. However, all my other observations make me think cycling is a quad-dominant activity and setting up the fore/aft to recruit my quads is what I should be doing.

try a little bit of saddle nose up or down. i moved mine up a couple of mm and took a surprising amount of weight off my hands...

Weight on my hands isn't the issue; leg muscle use is.

Since I do a lot of climbing, I keep my saddle back ...That said, most of the bikes I've owned have STAs of 74-74.5 degrees. Few small frames are made with a 73.

I agree that moving my saddle back feels like the proper thing to do, and "back" for me is centered on the rails. When climbing I can feel the hamstrings and glutes doing their business and the pedal stroke is more like LeMond's description of scraping mud off the shoe. But in that fore/aft position, once I reach the flats, it feels like my quads are underutilized and like my hamstrings an glutes are still dominant.

... I set my seat so that when I am centered on the saddle the front of my knee is
is at 90° to the peddle spindle at 9 o'clock. ...
Ultimately, I believe that there is no set rule for anything regarding bike fit we all have different physiques, histories and flexibility as well as what and where we ride.

I've done the "knee over the pedal spindle" thing and could easily ride that way for the rest of my days. It does feel like I couldn't ask for anything more as it is a very comfortable position for me. But something says to me that I'm not utilizing my quads as much as I should. Why? Are some people (and perhaps some successful racers) hamstring/glute dominant cyclists? Should I just leave well enough alone?

Remember; I have found the difference between a glute/hamstring pedal stroke and where the quads feel like they've come to the fore, is 1-3mm tops, in adjustment. But when the quad effect kicks in, it feels like the glutes and hamstrings shut off. And after yesterday's ride which was hardly difficult, my quads were toasted enough that I slept like a log.

[floxy1]

I’ve had success with the Hogg method of riding up a slight incline, lean forward and take hands off bars to find balance point. After over analyzing this over the years I’ve found that, for me, my overall knee bend (height + setback) is more important. In addition, focusing on hip flexibility has been a game changer much more than small tweaks to fore / aft