Attn: Rowers/C2 users

[scrooge]

I got a new Concept 2 a couple of weeks ago and think I'm starting to get the hang of it. So--any favorite workouts that cyclists have on their ergs (my goal is more in the endurance area, but want to be generally rounded, if not well-rounded, so i'm open to any good/interesting (?) workout)? Any tips to a new user?

[Z3c]

I have had my C2 for about 3 years; mostly use it during the winter as an alternative to indoor riding. I think it really offers the most workout for a given amount of time. I work in a bike shop and one day there were some athletes that row for KU; I got some tips from them; the most useful was to aim for a cadence around 28-30 strokes and pull very hard; I had been doing a faster cadence and pulling moderately.. I had assumed a faster cadence was better. My time/500m went up and I enjoy it more.. FWIW, I typically do between 3K and 5K meters at around 2:14/5 or so and it leaves me pretty spent.. Again, a great workout in ~20 mins. I really enjoy following that up with some moderate time on the indoor bike..

Have fun with it!

Scott

[kwadams14]

I've had a C2 for about 4 years now and am approaching 5 million meters. You can't beat the workout. I would suggest checking out their website if you haven't already as they have many different workout suggestions to try. Usually in winter, I am working on my base so tend to do longer workouts, say 10,000 meters. However, I think it's important to mix it up and do some different intervals once in a while, too. I guess everyone is different, but I tend to not have a fast pace on longer pieces, but keep it down around 18-20 and concentrate on proper technique and heart rate targets.

They have a fairly active forum on their site and if you check it out, you will find there are other cyclists who have good suggestions for workouts. If you don't find what you're looking for, just ask and you'll get some good help.

Have fun...it is addictive after a while!

Kevin

[rsl]

This is a really helpful post.

I'm not a fan of going to the gym at all, but after the ellipticals started giving me knee issues, and when I started noticing that some of the fittest people in the gym were using the rowing machines, I've started using a C2 myself at the gym. I've only been at it about 3 weeks now, but it does seem to be a good work out.

I don't have any tips to share, but I'd love to hear suggestions about how to use the rowing machine to increase my fitness on the bike.

Thanks!

[Louis]

Hey Scrooge,

I love my erg as a great winter workout tool. If the weather is decent I ride the bike outside, but if not I use the rower. I bought my Model C about five years ago and find that it is much less mind-numbing than the bike indoors (but obviously not as fun as the bike outside).

FWIW (and I'm hardly an expert) my workouts usually consist of three pieces with three minute rests in between. When I start rowing in the late fall I actually do two then after about two weeks move up to three. I start down around 2000m / piece and work my way up to 3333m / piece for a total workout of 10,000m (not counting warm-up and cool-down).

I agree with KW that for non-racing a lower stroke rate is better. I shoot for 20 spm, but at the very end of a piece (say the last 200-500m) if I’m pushing hard I let it go up to whatever seems best at the time, maybe up to 26-8 if it’s the last piece of the workout. Also, for a newbie it’s much better to have a low stroke rate because you are more likely to keep good form. At higher rates stuff can start to fly all over the place and you will pick up all sorts of bad habits. I also row “strapless,” which is another way to keep good form. Try it, it’s easier than you think, especially if you are rowing properly.

If you need some motivation and an idea of what a good pace is for various distances there are tons of sources of info on the C2 site, whether from what folks post on the forum or database and the world records also listed there. I am amazed at how far below a 2:00 pace they can maintain for huge distances. I can do just below 2:00 for short distances (say 1000m) but overall my workouts are closer to 2:07 or 2:08. (But then again, they really work at it, I'm just fooling around because I can't ride the bike.)

You have the more powerful PM on your new unit, so you can do more stuff, like race against yourself, or against a specific programmed boat. I haven’t gotten around to upgrading to a newer PM so for a given workout I choose a given pace that’s a bit better than my previous workout and try to stick to that. There are tons of things on the C2 web site - Wolverine plan and some really hard-core stuff that I stay away from.

What I find most interesting about the rower, compared to riding the bike, is that psychologically I find it much more challenging. When I’m working hard on the rower I have to consciously make the decision on every stroke – I have to force myself to pull hard every time. I think that’s because at 20 spm I have time think about it and the lazy part of me wants me to slack off. I find that continuously making that decision and calibrating my pull is quite a mental challenge. However, on the bike at round 90 or 95 rpm I don’t have time to decide how hard to push on the pedals. It’s more of a “flow” thing and I’m not constantly deciding exactly how hard to pedal. Also, for each stroke the erg tells you exactly what your pace / power output is so it’s much more difficult to slack off. On a bike ride the conditions are always changing (hills, wind, whatever) so speed means nothing, and other than my HRM I can’t measure power output on the bike.

Just some thoughts. Enjoy the rower – it’s a heck of a workout. (Better overall than cycling!)

Louis

[kwadams14]

Just a quick follow-up, Louis makes some excellent points. One thing I'll echo is that it is not only a physical blast, but as Louis mentions it will test you mentally more than any other machine. If you are really getting after it, either a set piece like 2000 meters or some tough intervals, your mind will begin to tell you "quit!", but you have to push through (good training for those monster climbs back on the bike). There are stories of people at indoor competitions blacking out and they do have large "barf buckets" strategically placed around the venue. Some nutty folks out there who love to suffer, but like I said earlier, an unbelievably complete workout. Who knows, you might even want to try it "for real" on the water like I have and believe me, that is 100 times harder than anything else given the combo of power and balance--every stroke matters.

One last comment, I can't stress enough the importance of technique, both to get the most out of your workout and to avoid injury. One thing I did early on was place a large mirror next to the erg and also had my wife video a short rowing sequence--you might be surprised that you're not quite doing it the way the C2 video shows (legs, back, and arms on the drive). I would also recommend buying a DVD or two. C2 has a good one, but perhaps the best are by Olympic champ, Xeno Muller (see gorow.com).

Have fun.

Kevin

[Velociotis]

Make sure you have someone show you proper technique. I haven't seen the concept II video, but the poster they used to have in the gym was not good.

I have been rowing/racing for 25 years and one of the biggest problems is people hurting their back. This comes from rowing at too low a cadence (20 spm, sorry Louis) before their back muscle and technique are ready and poor technique. Many poeple use too much arm/back: it is 75% legs. My suggestion is to go slow to develop the form and then move on. Some flail for power at 36-40spm, not effective either.

Also learn about the vent. Open=more resistance, closed=easier. I see many people overloading on resistance. This design has changed over time, I did my first jr national team test on one with a bike wheel with gears!

A lower controlled candence 24-6 pulling hard enough for you to develop the stroke should be best. Not as fun, but in the long run...Good luck.

[scrooge]

Make sure you have someone show you proper technique. I haven't seen the concept II video, but the poster they used to have in the gym was not good.

I have been rowing/racing for 25 years and one of the biggest problems is people hurting their back. This comes from rowing at too low a cadence (20 spm, sorry Louis) before their back muscle and technique are ready and poor technique. Many poeple use too much arm/back: it is 75% legs. My suggestion is to go slow to develop the form and then move on. Some flail for power at 36-40spm, not effective either.

Also learn about the vent. Open=more resistance, closed=easier. I see many people overloading on resistance. This design has changed over time, I did my first jr national team test on one with a bike wheel with gears!

A lower controlled candence 24-6 pulling hard enough for you to develop the stroke should be best. Not as fun, but in the long run...Good luck.

I thought the C2 video was descent, but what do I know...

As far as cadence--logic would tell me that if I'm taller, I'm allowed a slower cadence? I've been rowing around 20 as well, but am 6'8". I've been trying to watch the monitor readout that shows you the "shape" of your stroke. If I understand the theory right, the big spike shoudl come with the push of your legs, and then the rest you just work of that momentum (leaning back, and then finally finishing with your arms). This means that my stroke line (whatever you want to call it) goes up, peaking at the time when my legs are extending and I start to lean, and then as I lean back/pull it goes gradually down (generally without spiking back up) Am I right about that? I'm also trying to figure out how hard to pull...any pointers? If I've been trying to go harder, I focus more on pushing harder with my legs, not on pulling harder with my arms (although that naturally seems to happen). is this correct?

[Velociotis]

Sounds good so far...those new screens are cool.

When I was coaching, the mantra for kids starting on the erg was:
Hands-body-slide on the recovery
Slide (legs)-body-hands on the drive
Each body part follows the next in fluid motion. Current trend has the body and arms opening up more together with very little, maybe around 10 degrees, of body pivot at the hips. The swing counts for both forward body swing and at the finsh on ths stroke. Anyone younger and more current please feel free to jump in, technique changes over time...

Wow, I wish I was 6'-8" sometimes- I'm just a skinny little lightwieght. I just suggest caution without know your fitness level and cross training. I know many ex-rowers with bad backs, but I think the less body swing that people do now if better, we used to really swing...

Locking in the back and not letting it collapse in the stroke when one gets tired is something that one has to stay alert to regardless of size. Maybe better than ratings, would be to have a nice ratio of drive 1 versus recovery 2 to 3 count. Lets you focus on technique.

[Archibald]

I have a 2 also. I don't go for any particular workout, what I most commonly do is row at an effort that gives me a 750-calorie per hour workload at around 30 strokes per minute for a half an hour to 45-minutes. I'm working my way up to an hour. I love the damn thing and the with the ipod rocking the top 25, time goes by in a hurry.

Since I live right next to a lake, I've been considering borrowing a friend's hull and trying the real thing come spring.

[kwadams14]

Scrooge--

You have the right idea with your "stroke line" (it's actually called a force curve). You want it as smooth as possible (no jagged bumps or multiple peaks) and try to think in terms of a left-leaning haystack (no politics here!). Think of pushing the erg (or boat) away from you with your legs. Then you engage the lats and finish with your arms/hands into your mid section. Stay focused on good posture throughout the stroke and you should get a great core workout. With your height, someone will be signing you up for crew before long!

Kevin

[Too Tall]

We got a model D two months ago. Great stuff. I have a coaching program avil. that is a build up to prep. me for Crash-B racing feb 4. I've limited the workouts to no more than 60 mins. and only 3 x / week. Scrooge, glad to share if you want.

[Sheldon4209]

I have a Waterrower which is similar to the Concept. When my back gets tired I am slouching and I need to sit up straighter. When I first started rowing I found that easier and longer was better than rowing hard for a short time.

Rowing is great for the cold months and will build core, shoulders and arms along with the legs. It maintains my aerobics through the winter. I would rather row that ride in doors.

Sheldon

[Louis]

I think we're in the same general area, as far as cadence goes. The info below is from the C2 site here: Getting Started (http://www.concept2.com/us/training/start/)

They generally recommend 20-24 spm. I try for the lower end, others may shoot for the higher end.

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First Workouts

The Very First Row.
Resist the temptation to row for 30 minutes the first time on the machine. We recommend starting with no more than 3-5 minutes at a time. Then take a break to stretch and walk around. If you feel good - do up to 4 of these short intervals of rowing.

The Second Row.
Begin experimenting with stroke rate and power. Stroke rate is your cadence in strokes per minute. It is displayed in the upper right corner of the Performance Monitor. Power is how hard you are pulling. It is displayed in a choice of units in the central display area : watts, calories, or pace. Try some 3 minute intervals of rowing, varying stroke rate and pace, as described below.
Workout

3 min at 20 spm, comfortable effort; 1 min rest
3 min at 22 spm, harder effort; 1 min rest
3 min at 24 spm comfortable; 1 min rest
3 min at 24 spm, harder, 3 min rest.
End with 10 minutes of steady state rowing at whatever spm and power are comfortable.
Be sure to note the power and spm you settle on - you will use it next workout.

The Third Row.
Introduce longer rowing with stroke rate variation.
Workout
Do four 5 minutes pieces, varying the stroke rate as follows
20 spm for first 2 minutes
22 spm for next 2 minutes
24 spm for last minute. Then rest by rowing very easily for 2 minutes, before starting the next 5 minute piece.
Your work pace should be faster than your 10 minute pace from last workout.

The Fourth Row.
Longer steady rowing.
Workout
Two 10 minute pieces with 3 minutes rest in between.
Try to go a little faster than you did for the 10 minute piece in workout 2. Stroke rate 20-24 spm.

The Fifth Row.
Short intervals for variety and for a chance to see how fast a pace you can achieve.
Workout
Row 1 minute hard, 1 minute easy for a total of 20 minutes.
Watch the central display for your pace. Stroke rate 20-24.
Record your paces after the workout using the recall/memory function on the Performance Monitor.

Benchmark Piece.
30 minutes, non-stop.
Definitely record your total meters rowed for this piece. You should repeat this workout periodically, every few weeks, to see how you are progressing. You can also enter it in the