what's the line between inspiration and swiping? 2.0

[pretty pony]

Here we go....

Beauty, Truth, Goodness, Love, etc........Originality?
The question still stands; how would you define the quality of "original", and is "original" even possible?

Or an even better question would be, why do we care? MIT charged right at the problem by encouraging interdiciplinary research and embracing an open-source philosophy. Could you redefine it as collaborativeiginality? Begging the question; is it still "original" if a group of individuals comes up with it?



I dare you............ :help:

[obtuse]

that guy that gave you the four leaf clover was definatly a copy cat.

sometimes its easier and cheaper to buy a mechanically reproduced rip-off of an original hand-made product.....especially when you start hearing things like leftside titan spoke drive coefficient ha ha.

i'm building plastic frames in my cellar and mrs. browneye's boyfriend with the crack truck who sells us stuff on credit came by the shop today and offered to sell me a used snap-on tig welder for 900 bucks. i'm going to buy it and fix that metal ladder we have upstairs so jose can stack the hoopties up in the rafters without any more osha violations.

sound good?

obtuse

[dauwhe]

Yes... I'm thinking of group improvisation in Jazz... I remember watching Evan Parker, Barry Guy and Paul Lytton in Vancouver... it felt like they were channeling music from the 24th century.

I think most of what we thing of as breakthroughs come from communities of practitioners.

Dave

[Grant McLean]

Originalityishness is about as close to the truthiness as you get.

(with thanks to mr. colbert)


g

[atmo]

Here we go....

Beauty, Truth, Goodness, Love, etc........Originality?
The question still stands; how would you define the quality of "original", and is "original" even possible?



unless i'm mistaking all the big words here, as far as the
recent unpleasantness goes, there is a certain "originalness"
that is a pegoretti, despite the fact that he, too, is the sum
total of his experiences, muses, and inspirations. atmo, a
peg is undeniably a peg because i (read: all of us) know (or
think we know) what some of those experiences, muses, and
inspirations of his are. but at the end of the day, dario pegoretti
is the one creating the assemblage, and 3 decades of doing the
assembling, i believe, allows for him to be considered an original
even though, like others, he once looked around.


and ps that is about the worst constructed stream of
consciousness i can imagine streaming, but it makes
sense to me atmo...

[Too Tall]

De@r d-g nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Listen to Texas Swing you'll live longer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEgb7kj5CFs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHgyc7VrYTA&feature=PlayList&p=2D2EAE8F964C3BA8&index=8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sS5jSbV0Vg&feature=PlayList&p=2D2EAE8F964C3BA8&index=7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0F2_QfvFQs

[Climb01742]

unless i'm mistaking all the big words here, as far as the
recent unpleasantness goes, there is a certain "originalness"
that is a pegoretti, despite the fact that he, too, is the sum
total of his experiences, muses, and inspirations. atmo, a
peg is undeniably a peg because i (read: all of us) know (or
think we know) what some of those experiences, muses, and
inspirations of his are. but at the end of the day, dario pegoretti
is the one creating the assemblage, and 3 decades of doing the
assembling, i believe, allows for him to be considered an original
even though, like others, he once looked around.


and ps that is about the worst constructed stream of
consciousness i can imagine streaming, but it makes
sense to me atmo...

hey, richie, i'm thinking of starting a new cult. are you cult material? do you have robes and secret handshakes and stuff? we could build a nice likeness of you. interested? i have some used cult paraphenalia (sp?) with some strange foreign dude's name on it but i have a bucket of whiteout. i'm a good cult member...ask any number of forum members. i'm game. you?

[atmo]

hey, richie, i'm thinking of starting a new cult. are you cult material? do you have robes and secret handshakes and stuff? we could build a nice likeness of you. interested? i have some used cult paraphenalia (sp?) with some strange foreign dude's name on it but i have a bucket of whiteout. i'm a good cult member...ask any number of forum members. i'm game. you?
get real (http://campyonly.com/images/richardsachs/votive_candle.jpg) atmo -

[Grant McLean]

hey, richie, i'm thinking of starting a new cult. are you cult material?

get in line... :)

g

[Climb01742]

grant, you could open the canadian chapter of our cult. wow, our cult could go global. cool. kool-aid, anyone?

[atmo]

.

[RPS]

“Collaborativeiginality” sounds too close to socialism for my taste. It goes against human nature. IMHO it won’t work effectively.

[ergott]

We'd be listening to digeridoos and people banging on logs without sharing ideas.

We are the sum of our experiences.

[pretty pony]

God is dead.

There is no objective reality.

There are no original ideas, everything is derivitive, and everything is for sale.

Happy New Year.







Whisky? Bike ride?

[RPS]

We'd be listening to digeridoos and people banging on logs without sharing ideas.Yes, but when an idea is truly original, it has value and is treated like property. And people don't normally share their valuable property with others. We don’t usually give away our bikes, houses, land, or original ideas.

Sharing common knowledge to the benefit of society is another subject altogether from my perspective.

[swoop]

atmo.

[93legendti]

atmo.
They blew it:

"Will there ever be another ewe?"

much better...

[obtuse]

what happened to the pretty pony?





QUOTE=pretty pony]God is dead.

There is no objective reality.

There are no original ideas, everything is derivitive, and everything is for sale.

Happy New Year.







Whisky? Bike ride?[/QUOTE]

[Grant McLean]

grant, you could open the canadian chapter of our cult. wow, our cult could go global. cool. kool-aid, anyone?

we can paint each other's toe nails red...

g

[atmo]

Yes, but when an idea is truly original, it has value and is treated like property. And people don't normally share their valuable property with others. We don’t usually give away our bikes, houses, land, or original ideas.
<cut>

i'm using RPS's post to dovetail my thoughts on all this, because it is
very sensitive and extemely personal.

okay. here are my 2 cents.

atmo dario is one of the few originals, despite the fact that - as
has been noted - we're all the sum of our experiences. in the bicycle
industry, going back at least to the early 70s, dario is a one-hander;
the number of folks that have made the impact on the trade that dario
has can be counted on one hand. atmo, dario has earned his stripes.

here's a text i emailed dario last year in the midst of the
tubing project we were collaborating on. note: i had met
dario several years prior when he came to visit chester.
whoa. so, there already was some history between us
before the project began. but in the middle of it i pinched
myself because i realized that i was working with an icon.
i wrote this:

hey dario-issimo...
i just wanted to add a note of thanks to all these emails,
and the phone calls too. the thought of us being "pals"
fills me with good feelings.

i first heard your name in the early 90s. i believe it was
either from storino or tim maloney (maloney is an old, old
pal of mine from new jersey). regardless, whoever of the
two mentioned your name informed me that in italy, which
was then still the bastion of all great framebuillding ideas,
this man "dario" was the next in line to all the famous tailors
who made the great bicycles through the eras.

since i consider myself an armchair student of these "great
men", i watched throught the decade and into this century
as you have proven true what my pal (which one, i forget!)
predicted would happen.

i watched all the frames that georgio imported, first as giordanas,
and later as pegorettis, and knew that mister dario truly is the
best of all builders. i often wish i had other skills and more of
a curiousity about what is there in addition to steel. i believe
it takes a craftsman with no self-imposed bounderies to really
know what the limits are. i have stayed safely within the cocoon
of steel, and you have tried and succeeded with so many other
material combinations.

as you know from some of our exchanges and the posts i make
online, i am not too impressed from within our industry; i haven't
had much inspiration comefrom bicycles since the 70s, despite
still trying to forge ahead. but you, dario, are one of the true
geniuses of the craft, and i admire you like you cannot believe.
it is my pleasure to call you a friend, and an honor to be making
some of these decisions with you regarding the future of quality
steel tubing.

i want to thank you for all your dedication, for being the one
at the vanguard, and for being the leader of an industry that
should always have italian roots. the bicycle is a beautiful
object, and often the americans can complicate its beauty.
it's because of geniuses like you that the beauty remains.

as we say here, "you are the man!"
ciao, bro'.
e-RICHIE©™®

i s'pose my only point in posting this is to support any
notions that dario's body of work stands on its own, despite
the jazz, and the clapton, and the basquiet, and all the other
influences some of you see in it. he has taken all of his racing,
and his art, and his life experiences, and created something from
scratch. that should be respected atmo.

[J.Greene]

i'm using RPS's post to dovetail my thoughts on all this, because it is
very sensitive and extemely personal.

okay. here are my 2 cents.
.

In everything written in 3 days, Nothing has had the impact of that. Our pal Richie likes to say he's just Deb's husband, but that was actually one icon to another.

JG

[Grant McLean]

i'm using RPS's post to dovetail my thoughts on all this, because it is
very sensitive and extemely personal.
...

i s'pose my only point in posting this is to support any
notions that dario's body of work stands on its own, despite
the jazz, and the clapton, and the basquiet, and all the other
influences some of you see in it. he has taken all of his racing,
and his art, and his life experiences, and created something from
scratch. that should be respected atmo.

Why do i feel like Jimi Hendrix just played the opening act for my band?

thanks, and good night!

g

[obtuse]

Why do i feel like Jimi Hendrix just played the opening act for my band?

thanks, and good night!

g


i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

obtuse

You wanna take the stage following Hendrix? How do you top that?

'nuff said.

g

[obtuse]

You wanna take the stage following Hendrix? How do you top that?

'nuff said.

g


oh right....yeah. never mind its been a long day. i'm going back to making fun of niko eekhout with spinelli sorry.

obtuse

[David Kirk]

What ATMO said.

Dave

[stevep]

You wanna take the stage following Hendrix? How do you top that?


and heres hendrix playing electric piano!

come on atmo, you made me cry and now my keyboard is ruined..whos gonna pay for that??

[Too Tall]

That put lotion in my basket :) Nice way to start my day young man real nice. Now for a second coffee ahhh.

[Kevan]

I'll say this...

In today's environment, in the world we work, the skills and talents required in a corporate setting, where most of us survive, it's not often that an individual can incorporate their passion, their life experience, their God-given talents to the rock they chip away at everyday. Everything done in a corporate setting typically is a collaberative effort. A widget is designed and scrutinized by colleagues who have different ideas of direction. Politics, I think they call it. Finally, after much hoopla maybe the thing is built and marketed only after cost analysis has determined a coin can be made and a shareholder made happy. There's a lot of red tape to mummify the individual and his spirit.

What a joy it must be to pour one's heart into building an instrument as beautiful and pure as a bicycle. And it's all the better for him or her if the market buys into that heart and wants a slice of that individual's mojo.

[Climb01742]

i'm using RPS's post to dovetail my thoughts on all this, because it is
very sensitive and extemely personal.

okay. here are my 2 cents.

atmo dario is one of the few originals, despite the fact that - as
has been noted - we're all the sum of our experiences. in the bicycle
industry, going back at least to the early 70s, dario is a one-hander;
the number of folks that have made the impact on the trade that dario
has can be counted on one hand. atmo, dario has earned his stripes.

here's a text i emailed dario last year in the midst of the
tubing project we were collaborating on. note: i had met
dario several years prior when he came to visit chester.
whoa. so, there already was some history between us
before the project began. but in the middle of it i pinched
myself because i realized that i was working with an icon.
i wrote this:

hey dario-issimo...
i just wanted to add a note of thanks to all these emails,
and the phone calls too. the thought of us being "pals"
fills me with good feelings.

i first heard your name in the early 90s. i believe it was
either from storino or tim maloney (maloney is an old, old
pal of mine from new jersey). regardless, whoever of the
two mentioned your name informed me that in italy, which
was then still the bastion of all great framebuillding ideas,
this man "dario" was the next in line to all the famous tailors
who made the great bicycles through the eras.

since i consider myself an armchair student of these "great
men", i watched throught the decade and into this century
as you have proven true what my pal (which one, i forget!)
predicted would happen.

i watched all the frames that georgio imported, first as giordanas,
and later as pegorettis, and knew that mister dario truly is the
best of all builders. i often wish i had other skills and more of
a curiousity about what is there in addition to steel. i believe
it takes a craftsman with no self-imposed bounderies to really
know what the limits are. i have stayed safely within the cocoon
of steel, and you have tried and succeeded with so many other
material combinations.

as you know from some of our exchanges and the posts i make
online, i am not too impressed from within our industry; i haven't
had much inspiration comefrom bicycles since the 70s, despite
still trying to forge ahead. but you, dario, are one of the true
geniuses of the craft, and i admire you like you cannot believe.
it is my pleasure to call you a friend, and an honor to be making
some of these decisions with you regarding the future of quality
steel tubing.

i want to thank you for all your dedication, for being the one
at the vanguard, and for being the leader of an industry that
should always have italian roots. the bicycle is a beautiful
object, and often the americans can complicate its beauty.
it's because of geniuses like you that the beauty remains.

as we say here, "you are the man!"
ciao, bro'.
e-RICHIE©™®

i s'pose my only point in posting this is to support any
notions that dario's body of work stands on its own, despite
the jazz, and the clapton, and the basquiet, and all the other
influences some of you see in it. he has taken all of his racing,
and his art, and his life experiences, and created something from
scratch. that should be respected atmo.

richie, i love you, man (in a NFL player, awkward male hug sort of way.) to use your phrase, richie gets it. i know it isn't easy for you to step into this discussion but your view, from the inside and from pretty darn high up on that hill too, illuminates. but be careful...folks will say you've drunk the kool aid too. ;)

[ti_boi]

Hmmmmm. interesting. My thought is that "intention" is the key ingredient...if you are creating something and your motive is pure expression, you refine the piece and it is resolved...voila...you are free and clear.

If you intend to steal something and basically copy or emulate anything in an effort to pass it off as your own.....you are a bogus poseur.

[ergott]

Every innovator the like of Dario, and as I can understand more (being in music), Miles, Beethoven, Trane and the like, deserve their place in history. Longs after he stops making bikes, people will continue to seek them and herald them for what they are. They are cutting edge bikes that are like no other.

Look at Mr. John Coltrane. He is known as a musician that turned the scene on it's head and started an entirely new way to look at music. However, if you look at his early works, he was a copy of Ben Webster and Dextor Gordon. There is no way he could have found his voice without the influences before him and the only way he could have evolved was to learn from his masters. Sometimes you have to copy before you can make it your own. Miles copies Dizzy. Beethoven copied Mozart. The only way to begin to truly understand what someone is really doing is to try to replicate it. Then you can take your own thoughts and influences to make it your own.

Time will tell whether the bike in question is simply a reproduction for reproduction's sake or whether this can be the beginning of a new movement that began with Mr. Dario. I for one don't want to find out that Pegoretti's vision for how a bike should be will end with his decision to stop making bikes (whenever that may be). People have to be wiling to accept that great ideas will be copied and if they become the beginning of another evolution, then the idea truely has merit.

[Kevan]

to copy someone is to recognize a talent. Whether that individual then springboards determines whether yet another talent has been born.

[atmo]

let me reiterate what i pm-ed to sspeilman and he pasted in a recent post:

thanks - before 78, mr masi accused derosa of copying him (nervex ref. 32 lugs, fisher fork parts, etc...) and before masi, i guarantee you that someone accused him similarly. the public has to look past, WAY PAST, the part where all of us use a finite supply of similar looking parts and materials in order to make what looks (from 10 paces, at least) like a frame. to me, as a builder, it's like accusing guitar makers of all copying one another since they all use wood. i know you feel me on this!

you wanna know who's copying, or stealing, or
rearranging, or co-opting? well don't look now
and opine. that's shallow imo. wait a generation,
or mebbe 30 years atmo. it kinda sorta takes a
while to distill it all. in the meanwhile, if you're
basing your thoughts on a color scheme, or a lug
window, or a font, that is incredibly superficial atmo.

[Fat Robert]

I don't have a dog in this fight -- i have a bike in my room. however, i can't keep my fingers still so i'm typing out this crap. some random thoughts:

* there is an aesthetic argument going on here that is entirely valid. dario was the first guy to put togther four elemets -- round tubes, TIG, big stays, and the wright dropout -- on a steel road frame. he is, without a doubt, a "one-hander." he didn't invent any one of those. now, kirk comes along and uses the same design elements. this is where his bikes will start -- given his years of making and designing bikes (when did he first start with Bontrager?), and his previous work at Litespeed, it is unlikely that he will not develop Dario's original vision in his own direction. what i get into below may give some food for thought...certainly, kirk has some different ideas about geo, with hs bb drop and stay lengths.

part of identifying talent is looking at the previous track record and forecasting growth. kirk has proved himself to be a creative thinker and a design talent. my bike was where he started -- it will certainly not be where he finishes.

* there is another thing going on among the industry guys on this board that i don't have a clue about. guys who knew -- before the frame pics were posted -- who made it and who painted it ask "gee..who made that?" why? that's for the one-man, one-shop builders and the boutique design houses that outsource to know. We're not in that loop. some folks may be miffed that kirk, a tube importer, is now using that relationship to source tubes for his own frames. It may be because his connections enabled him to set up a production arrangement that is competitive with anyone in the industry, from the get-go. given his past at bontrager and match, i think its safe to assume kirk could weld his own bikes if he wanted to. its been stated that, unless the one-man, one-shop mystique is what you're marketing, the best day in your frame buisness is when someone else starts doing the torch. whatever. i'm a consumer.

* just some data for you to draw your own conclusions from:

there were three designs that kirk sent for me to sign off on. the first one was 55x57, for a +6 stem and shallow drop bars. if "proportions" were the issue, we wouldn't have had two threads now.... I didn't sign off on it because I got the willies that I might not have the core strength and flexibility I do now when I'm 45. So we talked about other routes to the fit points. a sloper was even discussed. in the end *I* signed off on the 57x57. My gunnar had a 57tt. 57x57 and deep drop bars seemed the most conservative option, with long-term adjustablity "up" for my bars. the designer crafted three different options to achieve the same fit points. I picked the one I wanted.

* so...I asked one participant in the discussion "if I had signed off on the sloper, or the 55x57 ale-jet version, would we be talking about 'copying'." the answer was no. my question at this juncture is, if the designer knows full well how to manipulate design elements, and isn't cynically turning out clones, and everyone on this board who is either a builder, a designer, or knows kirk's history knows this, why are we having this conversation?

[weisan]

This is the B-E-S-T bicycling-related forum in the entire planet.

[Ray]

my question at this juncture is, if the designer knows full well how to manipulate design elements, and isn't cynically turning out clones, and everyone on this board who is either a builder, a designer, or knows kirk's history knows this, why are we having this conversation?
Onnacounta it's what passes for the middle of winter in most places and we got nothing else to do.

Threads like this rarely, if ever, come up in summer. And die quickly if they do. Because we're all out riding. This is what passes for navel gazing on a bike forum. Lots of lint in there this time of year. From wearing all that wool to keep warm and whatnot. Less lint in summer from plastic jerseys.

BTW, nice freakin' bike!

-Ray

[Fat Robert]

This is the B-E-S-T bicycling-related forum in the entire planet.


absolutely, weisan.

i know perfectly well why this has gone on so long.

the board is full of talented, experienced, intelligent people who like to express their ideas, and except for obtuse when he's plastered, have ideas worthy of serious consideration.

cheers bros

:beer:


(that's a mineral water for me. 2 kilos to lose before stepping up to get plastered by the fast kids)

[obtuse]

absolutely, weisan.

i know perfectly well why this has gone on so long.

the board is full of talented, experienced, intelligent people who like to express their ideas, and except for obtuse when he's plastered, have ideas worthy of serious consideration.

cheers bros

:beer:


(that's a mineral water for me. 2 kilos to lose before stepping up to get plastered by the fast kids)


some of my finest moments have come when i'm plastered.

obtuse

[atmo]

thread drift

its been stated that, unless the one-man, one-shop mystique is what you're marketing, the best day in your frame buisness is when someone else starts doing the torch.
interesting.
is this because it allows for the builder to leave the playground
and start the long climb to interbikeville? no ulterior motive in
asking. just asking atmo.

[obtuse]

thread drift

interesting.
is this because it allows for the builder to leave the playground
and start the long climb to interbikeville? no ulterior motive in
asking. just asking atmo.


maybe. i've joked before that the happiest in ernesto colnago's life was the day he had made enough money to hire some one else to do the shi'ite work. now the old man sits in his office and counts his money.

we've talked before about the myth of the small one man italian frame shop and realties of modern frame production here, there and in asia. i really think of the smaller frame shops being outside the industry as a whole although as many have suggested it does get tricky.

atmo-you talk about the next wave of american framebuilders and i wonder how many of them see what they're doing as a stepping stone to interbike and a place in the whole ibd supply chain. my guess is few if any. some if not most of these guys like kirk, curt, dave and a few others have already been in the production setting; cut their teeth doing it and have moved out of the chain into their own digs....selling direct; interacting with clients on a personal level and being unbeholden to the trends and fluctuations of the larger bike market.

anyway i think this is a cool conversation.

obtuse

[Fat Robert]

thread drift

interesting.
is this because it allows for the builder to leave the playground
and start the long climb to interbikeville? no ulterior motive in
asking. just asking atmo.

actually, I was thinking of comments that you've made about that whole issue -- that on one hand, you've chosen to go one-man, one-shop, because its the choice that was right and fulfilling for you, but that you didn't think any less of the italian masters -- like colnago or pinarello -- who decided on the other route. I hope I'm not remembering and re-stating way out of context....

we've been here before, but heck, let's go there again...better to be a design house that outsources, or to be the artist-craftsman flying solo? we have both on the board...hampsten and pacenti in one camp, sachs and kirk in another...discuss....

[old_school]

I'm thinking Master P should do a whole production run of his latest creation. He could call it "The Jerk by Kirk." They would sell out in one day on the forum. :)

[atmo]

actually, I was thinking of comments that you've made about that whole issue -- that on one hand, you've chosen to go one-man, one-shop, because its the choice that was right and fulfilling for you, but that you didn't think any less of the italian masters -- like colnago or pinarello -- who decided on the other route. I hope I'm not remembering and re-stating way out of context....

we've been here before, but heck, let's go there again...better to be a design house that outsources, or to be the artist-craftsman flying solo? we have both on the board...hampsten and pacenti in one camp, sachs and kirk in another...discuss....
discuss?
that's too civil.
hey only kidding.

as far as all this goes, i'm solo because i don't want
the shackles that come with the alternative. as far as
framebuilding goes, it depends on the definition of the
term. ever since the mtb era, bicycles in general have been
such a well manufactured consumer good. the mtb makers
and market really upped the bar wrt what comes on a decent,
price-point type bicycle. heck, the stepchild to all this is that
the role that builders once filled is/was replaced by the so-called
factory bike with ultegra, or somesuch creature. don't laugh;
it was once unthinkable that you could race on a store-bought
bicycle. and man has that changed. framebuilders didn't/don't
exist for the hard-to-fit crowd (although they are served, too),
they were/are laboratories where the timeclock is not the issue,
nor is the price. most of the builders i know and admire are the
ones that simply want to keep the bar high, rather than the
price low, or the volume growing. blah blah i gotta go ride soon.

so to concise-a-lize all this, in the 21st century a builder that
wants to forge ahead either has to have a good base to trade on,
or else better glom on to the entrepeneurial train asap atmo. it'd
be real tough to make it as a loner if you're starting now.

[Fat Robert]

so to concise-a-lize all this, in the 21st century a builder that
wants to forge ahead either has to have a good base to trade on,
or else better glom on to the entrepeneurial train asap atmo. it'd
be real tough to make it as a loner if you're starting now.

true dat, redman

one thing -- if, say, one of serotta's designers left the company, started doing bikes that were made en masse in Taiwan, that would be a whole other problem. i'm a consumer, and i don't "get" business -- but with that qualifier out of the way, one virtue i see in the route that hampsten, pacenti, rivendell have taken is that they pick high-quality, small volume builders to do the work. that's good for all involved. designers can develop their ideas. small builders don't have to work at mcdonalds. better products from a variety of makers get out into the marketplace, and the consciousness is raised.

am i full of it?

[Ginger]

I'm thinking Master P should do a whole production run of his latest creation. He could call it "The Jerk by Kirk." They would sell out in one day on the forum. :)
Yes, this has been a pretty good marketing tool to deconstruct the frame and establish street cred without spending much else but time. Serotta should harness it a bit better for their own benefit.

[swoop]

if im going to tig up a steel frameset... i'm going to look directly in the eye of the guy that does it right and take from him the skeleton upon which i'l grow my own skin.

this bike wouldn't be possible without peg having done the same thing and ended.. having a source from which to construct his own dna. straight big steel tubes come from dario. end of story.

i see this frame as a begining of a conversation. if you speak frame it's obvious that the words used to express the thought are borrowed. in time the thoughts will become his own.


it's also easy to see that this is not a copy... there is a decision process not to blindly imitate at work.

i know i would make the same decisions and then give me a few of these things to build before i put down the map and get lost in my own vocabulary.

there's an old saying in my business, "never criticize a mother while she's giving birth'.
it looks like a solid frame .. i don't see that anything is hidden in terms of the choices... and i have no doubt that his dna will permeate the thing. but in a way.. to build a modern steel tig frame... you can't avoid dario.
atmo.

[pretty pony]

[QUOTE=swoop straight big steel tubes come from dario. end of story.[/QUOTE]

Chris Chance and the Yo Eddy anyone? or a Yeti F.R.O. Badass!

[davids]

you wanna know who's copying, or stealing, or rearranging, or co-opting? well don't look now and opine. that's shallow imo. wait a generation, or mebbe 30 years atmo. it kinda sorta takes a while to distill it all. in the meanwhile, if you're basing your thoughts on a color scheme, or a lug window, or a font, that is incredibly superficial atmo.That whole effen thread was based on a couple of photographs, for cripe's sake.

...most of the builders i know and admire are the ones that simply want to keep the bar high, rather than the price low, or the volume growing.This could be my next sig, atmo.

[Ginger]

.

[RPS]

If this “line” issue was about technology instead of art, we’d already have an answer -- IMO.

[ti_boi]

some of my finest moments have come when i'm plastered.

obtuse


I think everyone knows the 'truth' when they are 'plastered'....the difficult part is remembering it.

[catulle]

Keith Richards learned music by listening to Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Chuck Berry and others on the radio. He first tried to learn their songs, then to reproduce their sounds on a cheap guitar his mom had bought him, and then created his own songs from what he had learned. Of all, Chuck Berry was his favorite. Richards never had a single music lesson.

On May of '64, right before traveling to the US for the first time as the Rolling Stones, Keith got to meet Chuck Berry in London. Keith, never the touchy-feely type, went to greet his idol with wide eyes and a flushed heart. Berry's response, was: Fuc* Off. To make a long story short, eventually they became good friends, played music together, and today they are both renown musicians on their own merits. The Rolling Stones could have made it without Jagger, or Wyman, or Watts or any of the others, but not without Richards.

KP made a frame that might or might not look like a Pegoretti, but the fact that it rides excellently bodes well for KP, atmo.

[ti_boi]

...ah....one of my favorite examples of co-opting original ideas.

OK, so the black artists originated rhythm and blues....it had a wide, but not affluent audience....when the white guys covered those songs it was rock and roll....and the money rolled in. Same music. Different audience. The new audience didn't know or care where the sound came from they just knew it made them dance. And so it goes.

[atmo]

i'd like to co-opt a really good dancer.
black. latin. swing. ab.
i don't care what i steal.
where do i start atmo?

[old_school]

i'd like to co-opt a really good dancer.
black. latin. swing. ab.
i don't care what i steal.
where do i start atmo?

Sorry, Atmo, didn't you know ...

[catulle]

i'd like to co-opt a really good dancer.
black. latin. swing. ab.
i don't care what i steal.
where do i start atmo?


Would he do...?

[atmo]

Would she do...?
yes atmo.

[zap]

snipped

this bike wouldn't be possible without peg having done the same thing and ended.. having a source from which to construct his own dna. straight big steel tubes come from dario. end of story.




?????

[Big Dan]

Fat???

[atmo]

i have a feeling this is gonna turn into a roots
thread based on when you came of age in the
bike game atmo. just sayin'. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=15583#post15583)

[fiamme red]

but in a way.. to build a modern steel tig frame... you can't avoid dario.
atmo.You might as well say: "but in a way.. to paint a modern steel tig frame... you can't avoid dario."

What nonsense!

[swoop]

snipped




?????


hey, it was early in the morning.

[swoop]

To paraphrase that: "but in a way.. to paint a modern steel tig frame... you can't avoid dario."

What nonsense!

does the phrase 'guilding the lilly' mean anything? dudes... dudettes, we're just talking bikes, exchanging ideas, talking about design, method and influences and signature styles, process, and choices... and we're doing it on a bike forum.



all talk is good. there's nothing to get worried about. it's a bike.
it's not a bullet.
if you can't explore ideas witout getting bunched panties... what's the fun? it's the thinking out loud that keep it interesting. but for the record.. i'm not talking paint.. i'm talking tube selection. i woulda chose the same ones...

there's a lot of layers here. especially in today's industry.

[atmo]

i was standing in for punky brewster when all of you was nothin atmo...

[Len J]

In my work .....when You want to know the truth......you go to someone who knows the truth. Reading these 2 threads, it's pretty clear who knows the truth.

The other thing that strikes me on reading these 2 threads.....is that too many of us look at this topic as an either or.......either the design was stolen or it wasn't.......as opposed to the real world where there is a continuem between pure creativity on one end and pure copying on the other.....with all of our actions moving somewhere back and forth on different points between the 2.....the difference between us is where we populate on the continuen most frequently and how wide the band is that we can operate in.....Guys like Dario clearly are over on the creative end with a pretty wide band of operation.......but we all use attributes of both in different proportions for different tasks.

Taint black & white and it taint bad.

Len

[shinomaster]

Not that anyone care what I think, but in illustration or graphic design a work has to be at least 4 or 5 times different from the original or else it can be concidered plagiarism, and even then it is tricky to figure out.
It is really difficult to be in love with, or inspired by, or awe struck by work and not have it influence your own creations. If Mr. Pegoretti is as forward thinking and revolutionary a bike builder as some here say, then he is in fact an icon in his craft, and therefore sets himself up for reverance and emulation. When an artist/craftsperson displays their work they are putting it out there for the whole world to see and critique, and copy. How could a new frame builder not be influenced by a person like him? I can't think of any new or young frame builder or artist who doesn't pay some sort of homage to a past master or tradition. There is a difference to me in being ispired by a thought or idea, or aesthetic, and blatently ripping something off. A bad rip off would be a bike made in China that said Pegorrettii and looked just like one of Dario's works, paint all all.