John Eustice on disk brakes

[mcteague]

I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire but found this POV interesting. I do see disks as the future of road bikes, even though I only own rim brake bikes. I expect them to be improved a lot in the coming years but tend to agree with Eustice, not sure I would get them today if I were getting a new bike.


Tim

https://pezcyclingnews.com/features/eds-rant-covid-19-disk-brakes-remco-evenepoel/

We recently spotted a post by former US Professional Road Champion, John Eustice on disc brakes, which we reproduce his with his kind permission:

“The big issue with my new Pinarello, was of course the decision on whether to go to disc brakes or not. I endured a veritable chorus of disc brake fervour from my Central Park riding friends, about how, “you’ll be sorry if you don’t get them” and so forth, yet something held me back. I kept thinking about Team Ineos who, with that massive budget allowing them free rein in equipment choice, combined with their deep research abilities, have stuck to rim brakes.

I also spoke with a team director friend who, surprisingly, told me that his disc brake equipped riders begged him all year to allow them to change over to rim brakes for the Tour de France – it didn’t happen. I ended up with a rim brake machine and am so happy I did, especially after hanging with the mechanics down in Colombia (at the Tour Colombia 2.1) and getting the – emphatically off the record – inside views on the current equipment situation. The one theme I kept hearing was that the bicycle industry is using teams for product development rather than putting them on perfected equipment. The SRAM derailleur failures last year are an example of this practice. Many issues still remain with disc brake systems. Besides the fact that they add 500 grams (one pound) to a bicycle and make wheel changes difficult and slow, the brake rotors are constantly warping, sometimes even after a single hard descent. That “ping-ping-ping” of the rotor hitting the sides of the brake, which seems as thin as credit card swipe, drives racers (and everyone else I’m assuming) mad and is source of drag to boot. Brake pads are fast-wearing and changing them is certainly much more difficult than it is for rim systems.”

I’ve never ridden a bike with discs so I’m not the one to give informed opinion on the subject but on our recent mission to, ‘The Opening Weekend’ in Flanders we chatted to one of our hugely experienced WorldTour mechanic amigos, he gave us similar comments to the ones John heard. As far as the riders go opinion is divided, some love them, some don’t.

But what’s not open to debate is that the Dura Ace discs aren’t up to the rigours of a Belgian Classics campaign. Training and racing at amateur level is never going to approach that level of severity so you may never experience any hassle but when big money, big prestige racing is involved they don’t cut it. The pro mechanics replace the Dura Ace discs with the more rugged Ultegra or even MTB XTR discs but the latter aren’t up to long mountain descents, they’re prone to warping with the heat build-up.

Then there’s rotor size, I read ‘Cyclist’ magazine each month who run all manner of bike tests; the different manufacturers have their own reason for using the rotor size they do. So there’s no standardisation – a nightmare for race service. Then there are the arguments about wheel retention systems – some mechanics advocate power tools for thru bolt fastening and unfastening whilst some don’t. There’s still a long way to go before the beasts are tamed.


...

[fa63]

I feel like there is some misinformation in this opinion piece.

Brake pads are very easy to change; undo the retention pin and screw, pull old pads out, slide new ones in, put screw and pin back in. Takes me no longer than replacing regular brake pads, then as a bonus I don't have to worry about toe-in etc. In fact, it is so easy to do that I periodically remove the pads to lightly sand them with isopropyl; helps keep things quiet.

I have not noticed any warping (I weigh 225 lbs), though I have only done two big mountain descents. The pinging you hear after hard braking goes away after about 3 seconds once everything cools off. I doubt you could even measure the power loss from that little friction.

I am not a pro so I don't have to worry about speed of wheel changes. I can see how that is a problem. But I have to say through axles are pretty great because it positions the wheels exactly the same every time. Makes switching betwen wheels a snap too.

I should also mention that I think disc brakes are totally unnecessary for pros who ride on empty roads and are rarely touching the brakes even on big mountain descents. I wouldn't be happy if I was forced to carry an extra pound up the mountains just to appease the sponsors, but I imagine I would feel OK once I reminded myself that this is how I am getting paid :-)

[rain dogs]

IMHO unless you consider resale when you buy a new bike, if you are buying a road racing bike.... with tighter clearances... say up to 25's/28's AND especially if you're racing in competition, then I personally don't think it's worth it.

But, just like many people who have bought mountain bikes never really ride them offroad, many people who have racing bikes don't/can't race, both of these most likely able to be attributed to the fact that some eons ago there only really existed, en masse, three classes of bikes road, mountain and hybrid (which were generally cheap junk).

Today, we have a bunch of bikes and likely if you're not a competitive racing rider, there is a more fun more versatile "all-road" or "gravel" bike out there for you.... and those certainly should have disk brakes.

[Mikej]

So would a new road bike with rims brakes have 142 TA?

[NHAero]

That's a question I hadn't thought of!

I have two bikes with disc brakes and QR; one with discs and TA, non-boost; and several with rim and QR. It is a drag to not be able to move wheels around as I did in the old days :-)

I now have a spare set of wheels for each wheel type in case of a failure. The one i still need is a non-boost TA set for the MTB with the XD driver, so I keep me eyes peeled for that. Once I find a bike I like for a particular use, I keep it, so I should get the wheelset for the MTB. I have a replacement drivetrain sitting in the drawer (SRAM XX1 11 speed) that I picked up for very little $, since I'm happy with that tech and not expecting to go to 12 speed or electronic on that bike.


So would a new road bike with rims brakes have 142 TA?

[unterhausen]

Who is John Eustice?

[R3awak3n]

bla bla bla... bla bla bla... ride what you want... lets stop with this non sense

[Clancy]

I’ve noticed on my disc brakes I can get them adjusted to be perfect, no noise or rubbing, but after a few rides I’ll get some rubbing again. Readjust, fine, a few rides, rubbing, readjust, fine.....

Overall for me I’ll take disc brakes only because of thru axles and bigger tires. If that wasn’t the case they wouldn’t be worth the extra cost/weight/hassle.

[Tickdoc]

Returning a hydraulic disc braking ultegra giant tcr today after a three day rental. I am happy to report that I am happy to go home to my rim brakes and my own bikes. Like my rental car, the bike was fine, perfectly adequate, and it stuffed into the backseat of my rental car, but it wasn’t like oh my god I’m stopping so much better! The carbon frame, tubeless road tires, aluminum rim, sloping toptube , generic plastic bike was heavier than any of my regular rides at home, and the worst part is, my pinky and thumb did not know what to do ghost shifting the whole way.

[Mikej]

I’ve noticed on my disc brakes I can get them adjusted to be perfect, no noise or rubbing, but after a few rides I’ll get some rubbing again. Readjust, fine, a few rides, rubbing, readjust, fine.....

Overall for me I’ll take disc brakes only because of thru axles and bigger tires. If that wasn’t the case they wouldn’t be worth the extra cost/weight/hassle.

Are they new? Is it cold out? Wheel being remove / tight enough? I would look for a pad alignment shim tool. I know Hayes makes one. But yeah, sometimes I sand down a slight bit of pad material when new to prevent this.

[NHAero]

I have Shimano hydro discs on three bikes, and one has TA and the other two have QR. I don't have this issue with my bikes. So if you have hydros, I'm wondering what is causing your issues? Which brand?

My one remaining set of cable actuated discs are Avid BB7s on the Big Dummy. They're 10 years old, and from time to time I do have to adjust them. I've tended to think that is exacerbated by the really long cable run to the rear brake. It's not worth it to me to switch these to hydros, though I think that would solve that problem.

I’ve noticed on my disc brakes I can get them adjusted to be perfect, no noise or rubbing, but after a few rides I’ll get some rubbing again. Readjust, fine, a few rides, rubbing, readjust, fine.....

Overall for me I’ll take disc brakes only because of thru axles and bigger tires. If that wasn’t the case they wouldn’t be worth the extra cost/weight/hassle.

[OtayBW]

This is the comment from the article that caught my attention:

I endured a veritable chorus of disc brake fervour from my Central Park riding friends, about how, “you’ll be sorry if you don’t get them”

For Central Park.... :confused:

[ltwtsculler91]

IMHO unless you consider resale when you buy a new bike, if you are buying a road racing bike.... with tighter clearances... say up to 25's/28's AND especially if you're racing in competition, then I personally don't think it's worth it.

But, just like many people who have bought mountain bikes never really ride them offroad, many people who have racing bikes don't/can't race, both of these most likely able to be attributed to the fact that some eons ago there only really existed, en masse, three classes of bikes road, mountain and hybrid (which were generally cheap junk).

Today, we have a bunch of bikes and likely if you're not a competitive racing rider, there is a more fun more versatile "all-road" or "gravel" bike out there for you.... and those certainly should have disk brakes.


I think this is a perfect synthesis of the disc v rim debate. For Pros/Racers looking for max performance on 25-30mm (actual size) tires, Rim brakes still make sense given the weight and wheel swap challenges, especially at the pro level with the full mech support they get.

For MOST non-performance oriented riders, discs provide a great option as they allow for a bigger tire for greater comfort and "all-road" ability to explore some new paths.

[biker72]

bla bla bla... bla bla bla... ride what you want... lets stop with this non sense

+1
I own 3 bikes...one rim brake and 2 disc. They all work fine..:)

[colker]

I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire but found this POV interesting. I do see disks as the future of road bikes, even though I only own rim brake bikes. I expect them to be improved a lot in the coming years but tend to agree with Eustice, not sure I would get them today if I were getting a new bike.


Tim

https://pezcyclingnews.com/features/eds-rant-covid-19-disk-brakes-remco-evenepoel/

We recently spotted a post by former US Professional Road Champion, John Eustice on disc brakes, which we reproduce his with his kind permission:

“The big issue with my new Pinarello, was of course the decision on whether to go to disc brakes or not. I endured a veritable chorus of disc brake fervour from my Central Park riding friends, about how, “you’ll be sorry if you don’t get them” and so forth, yet something held me back. I kept thinking about Team Ineos who, with that massive budget allowing them free rein in equipment choice, combined with their deep research abilities, have stuck to rim brakes.

I also spoke with a team director friend who, surprisingly, told me that his disc brake equipped riders begged him all year to allow them to change over to rim brakes for the Tour de France – it didn’t happen. I ended up with a rim brake machine and am so happy I did, especially after hanging with the mechanics down in Colombia (at the Tour Colombia 2.1) and getting the – emphatically off the record – inside views on the current equipment situation. The one theme I kept hearing was that the bicycle industry is using teams for product development rather than putting them on perfected equipment. The SRAM derailleur failures last year are an example of this practice. Many issues still remain with disc brake systems. Besides the fact that they add 500 grams (one pound) to a bicycle and make wheel changes difficult and slow, the brake rotors are constantly warping, sometimes even after a single hard descent. That “ping-ping-ping” of the rotor hitting the sides of the brake, which seems as thin as credit card swipe, drives racers (and everyone else I’m assuming) mad and is source of drag to boot. Brake pads are fast-wearing and changing them is certainly much more difficult than it is for rim systems.”

I’ve never ridden a bike with discs so I’m not the one to give informed opinion on the subject but on our recent mission to, ‘The Opening Weekend’ in Flanders we chatted to one of our hugely experienced WorldTour mechanic amigos, he gave us similar comments to the ones John heard. As far as the riders go opinion is divided, some love them, some don’t.

But what’s not open to debate is that the Dura Ace discs aren’t up to the rigours of a Belgian Classics campaign. Training and racing at amateur level is never going to approach that level of severity so you may never experience any hassle but when big money, big prestige racing is involved they don’t cut it. The pro mechanics replace the Dura Ace discs with the more rugged Ultegra or even MTB XTR discs but the latter aren’t up to long mountain descents, they’re prone to warping with the heat build-up.

Then there’s rotor size, I read ‘Cyclist’ magazine each month who run all manner of bike tests; the different manufacturers have their own reason for using the rotor size they do. So there’s no standardisation – a nightmare for race service. Then there are the arguments about wheel retention systems – some mechanics advocate power tools for thru bolt fastening and unfastening whilst some don’t. There’s still a long way to go before the beasts are tamed.


...

This post seals the deal.. and not only for me. The fanatics can shout as long as they want. I don´t care about disc brakes. Unless i am forced otherwise i chose rim brakes.

[72gmc]

Good brakes are essential to dangerously dodge families and pets while maintaining a World Tour image in Central Park.

[colker]

IMHO unless you consider resale when you buy a new bike, if you are buying a road racing bike.... with tighter clearances... say up to 25's/28's AND especially if you're racing in competition, then I personally don't think it's worth it.

But, just like many people who have bought mountain bikes never really ride them offroad, many people who have racing bikes don't/can't race, both of these most likely able to be attributed to the fact that some eons ago there only really existed, en masse, three classes of bikes road, mountain and hybrid (which were generally cheap junk).

Today, we have a bunch of bikes and likely if you're not a competitive racing rider, there is a more fun more versatile "all-road" or "gravel" bike out there for you.... and those certainly should have disk brakes.

Road racing bikes are the most comfortable bicycles for long distance riding ime. ymmv etc. I much rather ride a fast road racing bike w/ deep hbars to saddle drop when commuting. It´s exhilarating, fun and comfortable.
I don´t ride on country roads so a race bike w/ 700x25 tires on light wheels is all the fun i want. On that machine, rim brakes are perfect.

[colker]

bla bla bla... bla bla bla... ride what you want... lets stop with this non sense

It was quite an informative post. Ride what you want, sure... but after reading the op i chose to stay w/ rim brakes.

[unterhausen]

If anyone should give up in this "debate," it is the road pro teams. It's a rump sport and they get what the sponsors want to give them. I can't imagine there are too many bike companies that haven't given in at this point. Consumer has spoken on this. Probably won't be able to get a rim brake wheel from neutral support in the near future.


The disc brake debate is like the black knight scene in Holy Grail. I have new rim brake projects in progress, but that doesn't mean much. It would be a lot easier to go to discs

[dbnm]

I'm about to order a new bike and disc brakes are the only option because i want an "all-road" bike with two sets of wheels.

Discs will have to do.

[72gmc]

He's invincible!!!!!

They should offer rim brake neutral service on the world tour, but make it an old Volvo wagon or air cooled moto. Show some style.

[Gummee]

studies have shown that in the dry, both rim and disc brakes stop the same. It's when it isn't nice out that discs really come into their own.

Switching between rim and disc brakes in my fleet, I can tell that it takes more pressure to stop the rim brake bikes, but after a bit, they become a bike again.

I suspect discs are the wave of the future. ...but my crystal ball has been cloudy before.

M

[colker]

If anyone should give up in this "debate," it is the road pro teams. It's a rump sport and they get what the sponsors want to give them. I can't imagine there are too many bike companies that haven't given in at this point. Consumer has spoken on this. Probably won't be able to get a rim brake wheel from neutral support in the near future.


The disc brake debate is like the black knight scene in Holy Grail. I have new rim brake projects in progress, but that doesn't mean much. It would be a lot easier to go to discs

My experience w/ this debate is: rim brake afficcionados say they want to keep riding rim brake bikes no matter what others do while disc proponents say everybody should give up and ride discs. :rolleyes:

[unterhausen]

I hope everyone goes and rides what they want. What I see is the ever-shrinking population of rim brake holdouts are trying to get affirmation from wherever they can. But do you have rim manufacturing capability?

[R3awak3n]

It was quite an informative post. Ride what you want, sure... but after reading the op i chose to stay w/ rim brakes.

you do what you want but how many more threads (and you love to get ppl all riled up on this, and tubular and tubeless) do we need about this crap? Just ride what you want, leave others do what they want. Funny how disc ppl are not constantly telling people rim brakes are worst. I have both, love both. Lets move on.

[colker]

I hope everyone goes and rides what they want. What I see is the ever-shrinking population of rim brake holdouts are trying to get affirmation from wherever they can. But do you have rim manufacturing capability?

Do you have numbers that show an ever shrinking number? There are millions of rim brake bikes out there. Someone will be smart enough to sell us rims and brake pads.

[fignon's barber]

Who is John Eustice?


Being from PA, you should know that!
John was a US racer who ventured over to Europe years before Lemond and 7Eleven. He was US pro champ, and raced in the Giro, among other big races. He lived in Philly, and gave a young new-to-the-sport Fignon's Barber a few much needed lessons back in the late 80's (especially at the weekly NE Philly Airport circuit). He does some small domestic race promotion and commentating now, I believe.

[nmrt]

i have both rim brake and disc brake road bikes. living in colorado, i appreciate more the disc brake road bike while flying down on extremely curvy roads 2500 ft in 4 miles.

having said that, rim brakes work on the same roads. but i prefer the feel on the disc brake bike on these roads.

you can ride whatever you want. as i can ride whatever i want. and i do not want to tell anyone what they want to ride. and none should tell me what i want to ride.

it is a bike! just ride! :)

My experience w/ this debate is: rim brake afficcionados say they want to keep riding rim brake bikes no matter what others do while disc proponents say everybody should give up and ride discs. :rolleyes:

[colker]

you do what you want but how many more threads (and you love to get ppl all riled up on this, and tubular and tubeless) do we need about this crap? Just ride what you want, leave others do what they want. Funny how disc ppl are not constantly telling people rim brakes are worst. I have both, love both. Lets move on.

Riled up? Really? Because i say i like this wheel over that wheel and this brake over that brake? LOL!!!!! And you are serious ?.. Unbelievable. There are millions of rim brake bikes being ridden and millions of people like it. Is that really annoying? The fact some people love a bike over another? Calm down.

[Davist]

hard to care too much when he says "I've never ridden a disk brake bike", so just more blather. His opinion's based on talking to the mechanics (?) I guess, whatever.. ride what you like..

[fignon's barber]

Do you have numbers that show an ever shrinking number? There are millions of rim brake bikes out there. Someone will be smart enough to sell us rims and brake pads.

One thing that never gets discussed is that you can design a better wheel when you don't have the constraints of having to include a braking track. You can make the rim more aero, for example. I think in the future, most wheel makers will focus their design on improving disc wheel design, has a bit more "open canvas".

[p nut]

Overall for me I’ll take disc brakes only because of thru axles and bigger tires. If that wasn’t the case they wouldn’t be worth the extra cost/weight/hassle.

My main road bike has Paul Mini V’s. Amazing brakes and plenty of clearance. QR has worked great for me so I stick with them but one could get a TA built easily.

[Tony]

One thing that never gets discussed is that you can design a better wheel when you don't have the constraints of having to include a braking track. You can make the rim more aero, for example. I think in the future, most wheel makers will focus their design on improving disc wheel design, has a bit more "open canvas".

How else would a rim be designed? Look at disk wheels and rim wheels at the highest level, pretty much same design.

[Ken Robb]

It seems all the comments about needing disc brakes to fit tires bigger than 25-28mm assume that rim brakes only come in short reach configuration. I have had a couple of bikes with mid-reach brakes including the Rivendell Rambouillet that I still have. I have run 700x35tires on it and it might accept 37s. The rear spacing is 132.5 so it takes 130 and 135 rear axles.

[XXtwindad]

you do what you want but how many more threads (and you love to get ppl all riled up on this, and tubular and tubeless) do we need about this crap? Just ride what you want, leave others do what they want. Funny how disc ppl are not constantly telling people rim brakes are worst. I have both, love both. Lets move on.

In a sign of how exhausting the "Corona Threads" are, I actually find the tiring, mundane discussion of rim vs disc brakes pleasant. Like the good old days....of last month.

[dbnm]

<<<< ee brakes >>>>

[fa63]

You might want to clean your seals/pistons; it sounds like your pistons may not be retracting fully:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo

I’ve noticed on my disc brakes I can get them adjusted to be perfect, no noise or rubbing, but after a few rides I’ll get some rubbing again. Readjust, fine, a few rides, rubbing, readjust, fine.....

Overall for me I’ll take disc brakes only because of thru axles and bigger tires. If that wasn’t the case they wouldn’t be worth the extra cost/weight/hassle.

[fignon's barber]

How else would a rim be designed? Look at disk wheels and rim wheels at the highest level, pretty much same design.

Actually, a rim designed specifically for disc should be quite different. You can shape it to be more aerodynamic when you don't need the 2cm flat braking surface, you don't need the extra weight on the rim due to thick track material needed for applying rim brake.

[colker]

In a sign of how exhausting the "Corona Threads" are, I actually find the tiring, mundane discussion of rim vs disc brakes pleasant. Like the good old days....of last month.

Yeah.

[colker]

One thing that never gets discussed is that you can design a better wheel when you don't have the constraints of having to include a braking track. You can make the rim more aero, for example. I think in the future, most wheel makers will focus their design on improving disc wheel design, has a bit more "open canvas".

Curiously..Dario Pegoretti used to say he could build a better bicycle w/ rim brakes and discs were something added to solve an economy of scale: carbon rims qc become cheaper if you don´t have the costs of brake tracks. Carbon rims made in China. I am not a conspiracy theorist but i believe this whole thing is about carbon rims made in china.

[Tony]

Actually, a rim designed specifically for disc should be quite different. You can shape it to be more aerodynamic when you don't need the 2cm flat braking surface, you don't need the extra weight on the rim due to thick track material needed for applying rim brake.

My question is how would a disk rim be more aero? You have design restraints due to both rims in need of mounting the tire in the same manor. I agree with weight, but designing a different more aero shape I can not see.

Also, from what I understand rim brakes are more aero than disks

[rain dogs]

Road racing bikes are the most comfortable bicycles for long distance riding ime. ymmv etc. I much rather ride a fast road racing bike w/ deep hbars to saddle drop when commuting. It´s exhilarating, fun and comfortable.
I don´t ride on country roads so a race bike w/ 700x25 tires on light wheels is all the fun i want. On that machine, rim brakes are perfect.

I struggle to understand how this can be true.... "the most." And even if it is true for you in isolation, which I doubt, it likely isn't for the 99%.

If you are riding a road racing bike for competition, you should be setting the bike up for stability, aerodynamics, and power, long before you worry about how comfortable it is for 1500km, as the longest UCI race is 298km, and most non/uci road races/crits rarely eclipse 150km. That's like saying you believe the most comfortable car for a cross country drive to be an F1 car.

I've had as much as 17cm (6 3/4") of drop on my road bike, and was perfectly comfortable with that, but it's certainly not MORE comfortable than a bike with just 10cm of drop - which is the amount I have on my gravel bike.

A bike is a bike. You could set up a gravel bike with 20cm of drop and a 140cm stem and put 25c tires on it and you have the same as if you did that on a road racing bike.

My point is, and what I recommend is, don't overly listen to the hype, don't overly listen to the doubters, filter out the noise and choose the components that make the most sense for how you ride. In most cases that will be disc. But I don't see one of the cases being pro/high-end competitive racing unless you have sponsor obligations or multiple bikes at your disposal.

If you can ONLY be comfortable with a massive drop aero bike and less drop somehow puts your back out, and you can't have disc brakes because of some personal philosophy... perfect. Ride on man. But then you shouldn't be so worried about validating your preferences with other peoples because they aren't the norm.

[colker]

I struggle to understand how this can be true.... "the most." And even if it is true for you in isolation, which I doubt, it likely isn't for the 99%.

If you are riding a road racing bike for competition, you should be setting the bike up for stability, aerodynamics, and power, long before you worry about how comfortable it is for 1500km, as the longest UCI race is 298km, and most non/uci road races/crits rarely eclipse 150km.

I've had as much as 17cm (6 3/4") of drop on my road bike, and was perfectly comfortable with that, but it's certainly not MORE comfortable than a bike with just 10cm of drop - which is the amount I have on my gravel bike.

A bike is a bike. You could set up a gravel bike with 20cm of drop and a 160cm stem if you could find one and put 25c tires on it and you have the same as if you did that on a road racing bike.

My point is, and what I recommend is, don't overly listen to the hype, don't overly listen to the doubters, filter out the noise and choose the components that make the most sense for how you ride. In most cases that will be disc. But I don't see one of the cases being pro/high/end competitive racing unless you have sponsor obligations or multiple bikes at your disposal.

If you can ONLY be comfortable with a massive drop aero bike and less drop somehow puts your back out, and you can't have disc brakes because of some personal philosophy... perfect. Ride on man. But then you shouldn't be so worried about validating your preferences with other peoples because they aren't the norm.

Why does conversation have to be "validation"?

I commute for hours on a bike. I have done it on late 80s MTBs which have similar geo to gravel bikes and similar tire widths. Then i went for a 700 wheeled race bike. I have tried different hbar heights and the lowest is the most comfortable.

[Mark McM]

Actually, a rim designed specifically for disc should be quite different. You can shape it to be more aerodynamic when you don't need the 2cm flat braking surface, you don't need the extra weight on the rim due to thick track material needed for applying rim brake.

Sorry, but this is just plain propaganda. Or at least wild hypothesis at best. I have seen no data showing that disk brake wheels are inherently more aero than rim brake - although there is some showing that they are less aero (due to needing more spokes and require crossed spokes, not to mention that you've got to add the disk rotor).

There are plenty of very aero shaped rim brake wheels. Here's the cross sections of a few, showing that you don't need to design them with parallel brake tracks:

Zipp 101:

https://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Zipp-101.jpg

Aforce AL33:

https://cdn3.volusion.com/zuzmr.cyhxj/v/vspfiles/photos/Al33-MSW-4.png?v-cache=1501153767


The weight argument is laughable. The extra weight on the rim is small, and far less than the extra weight on just the hub to be able accommodate a disc rotor (plus extra weight of the spokes). If you compare the total inertia of otherwise equivalent rim and disc brake wheels, you'll find that the disc brake wheels have more inertia and will therefore accelerate more slowly, than the rim brake wheel. And that's before you add the mass of the rotor, which makes disc brake wheels slower still.

I sometimes wonder about the need to exaggerate claims about new products. Sure, there are a lot of benefits to to disc brake wheels, which may make them better options in many situations. But why is there the need to fabricate non-existant benefits? (The same can be asked about tubeless tires - sure, they can be an advantage in some situations, but why is there the need to fabricate claims that they are lighter and have lower rolling resistance than standard clinchers, when the evidence clearly says there is no meaningful difference?)

[mcteague]

you do what you want but how many more threads (and you love to get ppl all riled up on this, and tubular and tubeless) do we need about this crap? Just ride what you want, leave others do what they want. Funny how disc ppl are not constantly telling people rim brakes are worst. I have both, love both. Lets move on.

Then just don’t read it. I thought it was interesting to hear what some ex-pro, and current mechanics think, when not talking sponsor speak. No one is saying you can’t ride what you want. Forums are for people’s opinions and, sometimes, they conflict with yours. :rolleyes:

Tim

[nmrt]

Just responding to your response highlighted below.
Carbon rims can be made to be lighter than alloy. I am current riding a carbon rim that is 270 g (only 22 mm internal width and 25 mm depth)!
But I do not remember ever seeing an alloy rim this light.

So, I do not know where the weight savings come from in a carbon rim, but it is certainly appreciable.

Yes, I do also see the irony. After all the said and done and you build these superlight disc wheels (1150 g/wheelset), after you add the 220 g for the two rotors, the wheelset is the same weight an a light-ish alloy wheelset.

But, carbon rims can be made really light. There is no doubt here.

Sorry, but this is just plain propaganda. Or at least wild hypothesis at best. I have seen no data showing that disk brake wheels are inherently more aero than rim brake - although there is some showing that they are less aero (due to needing more spokes and require crossed spokes, not to mention that you've got to add the disk rotor).

There are plenty of very aero shaped rim brake wheels. Here's the cross sections of a few, showing that you don't need to design them with parallel brake tracks:

Zipp 101:

https://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Zipp-101.jpg

Aforce AL33:

https://cdn3.volusion.com/zuzmr.cyhxj/v/vspfiles/photos/Al33-MSW-4.png?v-cache=1501153767


The weight argument is laughable. The extra weight on the rim is small, and far less than the extra weight on just the hub to be able accommodate a disc rotor (plus extra weight of the spokes). If you compare the total inertia of otherwise equivalent rim and disc brake wheels, you'll find that the disc brake wheels have more inertia and will therefore accelerate more slowly, than the rim brake wheel. And that's before you add the mass of the rotor, which makes disc brake wheels slower still.

I sometimes wonder about the need to exaggerate claims about new products. Sure, there are a lot of benefits to to disc brake wheels, which may make them better options in many situations. But why is there the need to fabricate non-existant benefits? (The same can be asked about tubeless tires - sure, they can be an advantage in some situations, but why is there the need to fabricate claims that they are lighter and have lower rolling resistance than standard clinchers, when the evidence clearly says there is no meaningful difference?)

[unterhausen]

Curiously..Dario Pegoretti used to say he could build a better bicycle w/ rim brakes
I agree as a steel framebuilder, discs are a pain to deal with. Discs compromise some of the few remaining advantages of steel. Nobody in the industry cares what I think though. And I'm adapting

[tomato coupe]

Discs compromise some of the few remaining advantages of steel.
In what way?

[unterhausen]

It's hard to make a supple steel disc fork, for example. And the rear end is a pain in comparison to a rim brake frame, but I suppose everybody has that issue.

[earlfoss]

Old Man Yells At Cloud

[d_douglas]

In a sign of how exhausting the "Corona Threads" are, I actually find the tiring, mundane discussion of rim vs disc brakes pleasant. Like the good old days....of last month.

Yes, you know it’s bad when this is an interesting discussion.

And yes, I didn’t need to chime in on this.

[benb]

Eh. if you listen to the whisperings and read about the equipment failures I feel like his quote about the Pro peloton being used as beta testers for equipment that is not ready for prime time as opposed to them receiving equipment that has been perfected rings true. Disc Brakes, Carbon wheels, proprietary seat masts, ridiculous new SRAM groupsets, there have been a lot of expensive products that stunk.

Carbon wheels are another great example of stuff getting beta tested by pros who are putting their own skin on the line.

I will never forget Phil Gaimon's story in his book about his team having to ride Zipp Carbon rims. And the rims would crack at the correct tire pressures for a riders weight + bike weight. Zipp was making everyone ride at artificially high pressures to keep the rims from cracking, which was making guys crash. So they were having a battle where the mechanics would set the tire pressures to where Zipp wanted them, because Zipp didn't want to provide them with new wheels when they broke. But the riders would do everything they could to try and sneak off and lower the tire pressures, cause riders don't like to crash. If you're not an athlete we have stuff like OSHA to manage that kind of thing, and my guess is workplace safety is taken even more seriously in Europe!

Then you've of course got carbon wheels cutting tires and the finger-pointing blame game there...

[Jeff N.]

Disc brakes. Battery-powered groups. Fat tires on road bikes. Just say no.:banana:

[tomato coupe]

It's hard to make a supple steel disc fork, for example. And the rear end is a pain in comparison to a rim brake frame, but I suppose everybody has that issue.
Interesting. Thanks.

[giordana93]

this is the most relevant section of the original quote:

I’ve never ridden a bike with discs so I’m not the one to give informed opinion on the subject

[pbarry]

Useless was his nickname—U.S pro champion one or two years back in the day when there were only two or three pros in the states and Jock Boyer was stuck on the continent. Even in those races, he finished behind top amateurs but got the “championship” since he had the “pro” license..

I wouldn’t take his thoughts on disc brakes too seriously.

[Black Dog]

Sorry, but this is just plain propaganda. Or at least wild hypothesis at best. I have seen no data showing that disk brake wheels are inherently more aero than rim brake - although there is some showing that they are less aero (due to needing more spokes and require crossed spokes, not to mention that you've got to add the disk rotor).

There are plenty of very aero shaped rim brake wheels. Here's the cross sections of a few, showing that you don't need to design them with parallel brake tracks:

Zipp 101:

https://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Zipp-101.jpg

Aforce AL33:

https://cdn3.volusion.com/zuzmr.cyhxj/v/vspfiles/photos/Al33-MSW-4.png?v-cache=1501153767


The weight argument is laughable. The extra weight on the rim is small, and far less than the extra weight on just the hub to be able accommodate a disc rotor (plus extra weight of the spokes). If you compare the total inertia of otherwise equivalent rim and disc brake wheels, you'll find that the disc brake wheels have more inertia and will therefore accelerate more slowly, than the rim brake wheel. And that's before you add the mass of the rotor, which makes disc brake wheels slower still.

I sometimes wonder about the need to exaggerate claims about new products. Sure, there are a lot of benefits to to disc brake wheels, which may make them better options in many situations. But why is there the need to fabricate non-existant benefits? (The same can be asked about tubeless tires - sure, they can be an advantage in some situations, but why is there the need to fabricate claims that they are lighter and have lower rolling resistance than standard clinchers, when the evidence clearly says there is no meaningful difference?)

Ohh, I would be very careful about these words Mark. You are now being tracked by the BMMM. Bicycle manufacturing marketing mafia. True statements that disrupt the marketing propaganda will result in missing valve stems and water in your latex tubes to add to rotational mass. Your wheels will never spin up fast again or hold speed!!! They will reduce the vertical compliance of your frame and you will have every bump transmitted to your ass and hands. They reduce the lateral stiffness of your frames and you will not longer fly up climbs.

These guys don't mess around. They have proven abilities; finding amazing solutions to problems that never existed and then convincing everyone that the problems actually exist! Welcome to the matrix.

[Robot870]

Disc brakes. Battery-powered groups. Fat tires on road bikes. Just say no.:banana:

This^^

[tomato coupe]

Disc brakes. Battery-powered groups. Fat tires on road bikes. Just say no.:banana:
Indoor plumbing. Electricity. Horseless carriage. Just say no.

[giordana93]

let's add indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifter controls. they only add weight and complexity. while we're at it, who needs derailleurs? I only ever use one gear at a time.

[colker]

Rim brake users halt the progress of civilization.:eek:

[EliteVelo]

Being from PA, you should know that!
John was a US racer who ventured over to Europe years before Lemond and 7Eleven. He was US pro champ, and raced in the Giro, among other big races. He lived in Philly, and gave a young new-to-the-sport Fignon's Barber a few much needed lessons back in the late 80's (especially at the weekly NE Philly Airport circuit). He does some small domestic race promotion and commentating now, I believe.

Did the same for me. While conversations where antiquated at times, he helped me tremendously.

I re-connected with him when I went to arguably the best shop in town at the time in Willow Grove, where he worked part time. I walked out buying his original Cinelli Laser. Fully stock. I kick myself in the @ss every day that that bike is no longer with me.

[Mark McM]

let's add indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifter controls. they only add weight and complexity. while we're at it, who needs derailleurs? I only ever use one gear at a time.

There have been a lot of cycling component/frame innovations in the last 40 years or so that I have been cycling. Rarely are any of them win-win situations: In addition to advantages, each has had disadvantages. But for many riders, the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.

There is no doubt that integrated brake/shifters added weight and cost, and even had an affect on bike handling (the added mass at the ends of the handlebars affect handlebar swing weight and make steering a tad slower). But for most people (including me), the advantage of being able to shift without removing the hands from the handlebars (which means, for example, that you can shift while standing or sprinting) far outweighs the disadvantages.

Other examples include dual pivot brakes replacing single pivot brake, and linear pull brakes replacing cantilever brakes. Each had their own sets of disadvantages, but overall, their advantages outweighed their disadvantages. In all these cases, nobody really denies that these new products included some negatives, but most agree that they can live with their negatives to get their positives.

As for disc brake, these two have their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Many riders like their advantages, and prefer to use them, which is all well and good. But why do some choose to claim that that they have no disadvantages (such that any one who chooses not to use them are foolish), or even claim advantages that they have not been demonstrated to have?

[herb5998]

Thanks OP, Decent point of view, though much of it heavily focused on racing, which is a narrow part of the market really, even if that is the "proving ground" for some technologies. I've got two rim brake bikes, happy with them both, I'm not small by any means, and I haven't had any issues with rim brake performance, even when dong long, steep descents.

I will say that potentially, in the future, a single disc brake bike, that allows me to use it for road/gravel, and I can just swap wheel sets is certainly appealing, though for now, I'm more than happy with what I have, and my bikes will certainly last quite a while.

[estilley]

Guessing not too many mountain bike riders on here...

I didn't really "get" discs until I got an enduro MTB bike and realized that they are absolutely necessary for that sort of riding.

As far as road goes I would like the modulation of hydros but I have some 6800 rim brake stuff that is going to be on my "nice day" bike.

Will probably go disc on the next commuter but that's just because you'll get rain on at least one way of your commute here from October-July.

[Mark McM]

Just responding to your response highlighted below.
Carbon rims can be made to be lighter than alloy. I am current riding a carbon rim that is 270 g (only 22 mm internal width and 25 mm depth)!
But I do not remember ever seeing an alloy rim this light.

So, I do not know where the weight savings come from in a carbon rim, but it is certainly appreciable.

Yes, I do also see the irony. After all the said and done and you build these superlight disc wheels (1150 g/wheelset), after you add the 220 g for the two rotors, the wheelset is the same weight an a light-ish alloy wheelset.

But, carbon rims can be made really light. There is no doubt here.

No doubt your 270 gram carbon rims are tubular. There have been alloy tubular rims this light and even lighter (I've got some Weyless tubular rims that are about 220 grams, and some Super Champion Performance rims at about 260 grams). But it must be admitted that these superlight alloy rims are not very robust at all, need more spokes for adequate support, and can't tolerate the high dishing of today's wheels. So yes, practical aluminum tubular rims are heavier than carbon tubular rims.

When it comes to clincher rims (which are far more popular than tubulars), the weight difference between carbon and aluminum rims is much narrower. Carbon clincher rims are significantly heavier than carbon tubular rims. While carbon clincher rims are typically a little lighter than aluminum clincher rims, There are some reasonably robust aluminum clincher rims that are lighter than some common carbon clincher rims.

[benb]

No doubt your 270 gram carbon rims are tubular. There have been alloy tubular rims this light and even lighter (I've got some Weyless tubular rims that are about 220 grams, and some Super Champion Performance rims at about 260 grams). But it must be admitted that these superlight alloy rims are not very robust at all, need more spokes for adequate support, and can't tolerate the high dishing of today's wheels. So yes, practical aluminum tubular rims are heavier than carbon tubular rims.

When it comes to clincher rims (which are far more popular than tubulars), the weight difference between carbon and aluminum rims is much narrower. Carbon clincher rims are significantly heavier than carbon tubular rims. While carbon clincher rims are typically a little lighter than aluminum clincher rims, There are some reasonably robust aluminum clincher rims that are lighter than some common carbon clincher rims.

Of course the carbon clincher wheelset that's light might not work very well with rim brakes...

And then you go to discs to make up for the poor rim brake + carbon performance...

And all of a sudden you spent $3k extra and the cheaper rim brake + alloy setup still weighs less.

Lots of plusses and minuses here.

Road bikes are most sensitive to weight and get the least benefit out of the extra brake performance discs have. Not at all hard to understand why this stuff isn't instantly embraced by 100% of the pro peloton.

[giordana93]

There have been a lot of cycling component/frame innovations in the last 40 years or so that I have been cycling. Rarely are any of them win-win situations: In addition to advantages, each has had disadvantages. But for many riders, the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.

There is no doubt that integrated brake/shifters added weight and cost, and even had an affect on bike handling (the added mass at the ends of the handlebars affect handlebar swing weight and make steering a tad slower). But for most people (including me), the advantage of being able to shift without removing the hands from the handlebars (which means, for example, that you can shift while standing or sprinting) far outweighs the disadvantages.

Other examples include dual pivot brakes replacing single pivot brake, and linear pull brakes replacing cantilever brakes. Each had their own sets of disadvantages, but overall, their advantages outweighed their disadvantages. In all these cases, nobody really denies that these new products included some negatives, but most agree that they can live with their negatives to get their positives.

As for disc brake, these two have their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Many riders like their advantages, and prefer to use them, which is all well and good. But why do some choose to claim that that they have no disadvantages (such that any one who chooses not to use them are foolish), or even claim advantages that they have not been demonstrated to have?

I hope my sarcasm was obvious. On the other hand, as I noted above, to cite a "former pro" who plainly states that he has never ridden a disc brake bike, only to then "reference" a whole bunch of "off the record one guy says this" claims (including--actually especially--pro mechanics who are as resistant to change as anyone in the industry) is just ridiculous. And falls right into the "click bait" / confirmation bias internet level of superficial discussion these threads often originate in and degenerate into (that's an awkward phrasing, but still). I refused to click on the link. And yes, I have a disc brake bike with tubeless tires. Is it better than my Italian steel with down tube shifters and tubulars from back in the day? no, and yes. it's just different. But I'd choose the modern bike for my Thursday night worlds and most other training/racing. Pluses far outweigh minuses, but it's evolutinary, not revolutionary. I'd be just as happy on a modern rim brake bike, but the aero frames that are possible by taking out the brake bridge bring some advantages as well--and I sure as **** will tell you that I'd take a disc brake bike over one that puts the rear brake under the chain stays or uses some other crappy proprietary design that I guarantee will have inferior braking (Not talking about direct mount brakes--they're great). anyway. carry on, I'm sure we'll resolve this one before the quarentine (sic) ends

[redir]

My only experience with disk is on my MTB outside a few test rides on road bikes with disk. I'd never go back to rim brakes on my MTB that's for sure. But I do buy the argument that pros have in that switching wheels is more troublesome. It definitely takes me longer to switch my MTB wheel out then a road bike one. And even in amateur races you get wheel changes where seconds make a different as to weather or not you can latch back on. And on top of that rim brakes stop my road bike just fine. A bit more slow in the rain but then I don't ride in the rain either.

[colker]

Of course the carbon clincher wheelset that's light might not work very well with rim brakes...

And then you go to discs to make up for the poor rim brake + carbon performance...

And all of a sudden you spent $3k extra and the cheaper rim brake + alloy setup still weighs less.

Lots of plusses and minuses here.

Road bikes are most sensitive to weight and get the least benefit out of the extra brake performance discs have. Not at all hard to understand why this stuff isn't instantly embraced by 100% of the pro peloton.

There is too much fact and logic in your thinking. I don´t even know this is allowed nowadays.

[Clancy]

Are they new? Is it cold out? Wheel being remove / tight enough? I would look for a pad alignment shim tool. I know Hayes makes one. But yeah, sometimes I sand down a slight bit of pad material when new to prevent this.

It’s just that tiny little ping-ping-ping. I adjust brakes with just regular feeler blades, as in Barnett’s, use on one side or double-up as needed. Pretty slick way to do it. I need to ease a few drops of fluid out to open it up a little, keep hoping the pad would wear-in that little bit.

[nmrt]

They are clincher carbon rims!!:banana:


No doubt your 270 gram carbon rims are tubular. There have been alloy tubular rims this light and even lighter (I've got some Weyless tubular rims that are about 220 grams, and some Super Champion Performance rims at about 260 grams). But it must be admitted that these superlight alloy rims are not very robust at all, need more spokes for adequate support, and can't tolerate the high dishing of today's wheels. So yes, practical aluminum tubular rims are heavier than carbon tubular rims.

When it comes to clincher rims (which are far more popular than tubulars), the weight difference between carbon and aluminum rims is much narrower. Carbon clincher rims are significantly heavier than carbon tubular rims. While carbon clincher rims are typically a little lighter than aluminum clincher rims, There are some reasonably robust aluminum clincher rims that are lighter than some common carbon clincher rims.

[Clancy]

It's hard to make a supple steel disc fork, for example. And the rear end is a pain in comparison to a rim brake frame, but I suppose everybody has that issue.

Are there still advantages of making a steel disc fork over using a carbon, besides the visual?

[Old School]

actually, a rim designed specifically for disc should be quite different. You can shape it to be more aerodynamic when you don't need the 2cm flat braking surface, you don't need the extra weight on the rim due to thick track material needed for applying rim brake.

exactly

[Old School]

It’s just that tiny little ping-ping-ping. I adjust brakes with just regular feeler blades, as in Barnett’s, use on one side or double-up as needed. Pretty slick way to do it. I need to ease a few drops of fluid out to open it up a little, keep hoping the pad would wear-in that little bit.


Birzman Disc Tool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COZ6d2yUplg

[colker]

Are there still advantages of making a steel disc fork over using a carbon, besides the visual?
It rides different. Feels different. Absorbs impact different.

[Hellgate]

Guessing not too many mountain bike riders on here...



I didn't really "get" discs until I got an enduro MTB bike and realized that they are absolutely necessary for that sort of riding.



As far as road goes I would like the modulation of hydros but I have some 6800 rim brake stuff that is going to be on my "nice day" bike.



Will probably go disc on the next commuter but that's just because you'll get rain on at least one way of your commute here from October-July.I raced CX way back in 2004 in a Cannondale with early discs, Avids, I think. The pads lasted 1 and a half, kind of muddy laps in it's first race. Nothing like entering a single track corner, and feeling the levers pull back to the drops. It felt like the bike accelerated! Over the course of the season it ate $50 pads at the rate of one per race weekend. 12 weekends in a season was half the cost of the bike. I loved the fame but the brakes were a deal breaker. I sold the bike and had a custom Guru CX bike with Paul's built up.

I'm sure disc brakes are much better today, however, that experience killed disc brakes for me.

Besides, Campy Boras with AC3 and red pads are outstanding.

[Mark McM]

They are clincher carbon rims!!:banana:

The advertised weight of 270 grams is for the Extralight version of 650b size. The advertised weight for the 29'er (700c) Extralight version is 285 grams. As a comparison to alloy clincher rims, 285 grams is still 5 grams more than the 280 gram advertised weight of American Classic alloy Mag 300 rim (700c).

All of these are advertised weights - have any of these weights actually been confirmed? There's a lot fudging of advertised component weights, afterall.

[nmrt]

I have weighed them. They were true to advertised with a +/-10 g.
The AM classic Mags were not sturdy at all. Heck, even the alloy Stan's alpha 340 with 340 g rim weight were not the best ones out there.

My point being: I can ride 270 g carbon rims with nary a concern. But I cannot say the same for AC Magnesiums.

Also, there are some lighter carbon rims at 265 g that I want to try out. I think they should be fine as well. Will let you know if I ever end up with a wheelset.

Due the the low rims weights of carbon, we are seeing really low weight carbon clincher wheelsets that were not possible (to ride reliably at least for me and my 145 lb weight) with alloy wheelsets. Here are two wheelsets that I ordered for my gravel bike. Check out the weights! And these rims were not even the lightest at 320 g. As I said, these weights were unheard of in the alloy era especially with heavier disc hubs!

The advertised weight of 270 grams is for the Extralight version of 650b size. The advertised weight for the 29'er (700c) Extralight version is 285 grams. As a comparison to alloy clincher rims, 285 grams is still 5 grams more than the 280 gram advertised weight of American Classic alloy Mag 300 rim (700c).

All of these are advertised weights - have any of these weights actually been confirmed? There's a lot fudging of advertised component weights, afterall.

[Gummee]

Disc brakes. Battery-powered groups. Fat tires on road bikes. Just say no.:banana:

funny enough I have all 3 and like em. I still like my 23c road tires and like em.

I really like my 32c road tires for the craptastic 'roads' I ride on. Can you say 'horrible patch jobs?!'

I rode my disc brake and Di2-equipped bike for 3hrs just now. I could probably run 28s to 30s on it, but have 25s on there now.

Fun times.

M

[Tony]

The advertised weight of 270 grams is for the Extralight version of 650b size. The advertised weight for the 29'er (700c) Extralight version is 285 grams. As a comparison to alloy clincher rims, 285 grams is still 5 grams more than the 280 gram advertised weight of American Classic alloy Mag 300 rim (700c).

All of these are advertised weights - have any of these weights actually been confirmed? There's a lot fudging of advertised component weights, afterall.

More like chicanery with many companies.

[estilley]

I raced CX way back in 2004 in a Cannondale with early discs, Avids, I think. The pads lasted 1 and a half, kind of muddy laps in it's first race. Nothing like entering a single track corner, and feeling the levers pull back to the drops. It felt like the bike accelerated! Over the course of the season it ate $50 pads at the rate of one per race weekend. 12 weekends in a season was half the cost of the bike. I loved the fame but the brakes were a deal breaker. I sold the bike and had a custom Guru CX bike with Paul's built up.

I'm sure disc brakes are much better today, however, that experience killed disc brakes for me.

Besides, Campy Boras with AC3 and red pads are outstanding.

That sounds like a wild ride

[Spoker]

Mathieu vd Poel chose disc brakes (as did vdHaar) way before other cross racers did, and not because they liked that the bike was > 1 pound heavier.
Just build a mixed surface bike myself. Still have air in the line of the front brake, and the rear is mechanical / hydro. Braking hard is so much better than rim brakes.
Will miss the ease of throwing the bike around in the back of the truck though.

[BdaGhisallo]

Mathieu vd Poel chose disc brakes (as did vdHaar) way before other cross racers did, and not because they liked that the bike was > 1 pound heavier.
Just build a mixed surface bike myself. Still have air in the line of the front brake, and the rear is mechanical / hydro. Braking hard is so much better than rim brakes.
Will miss the ease of throwing the bike around in the back of the truck though.

LVDH and MVDP, along with Marianne Vos, were the poster boys/girl for Shimano’s advertising push for discs back in 2015/16. I have no doubt that there was a nudge or two from Shimano to use their new road disc brakes on their CX machines. The choice was likely not entirely the doing of the riders.

[Mark McM]

Mathieu vd Poel chose disc brakes (as did vdHaar) way before other cross racers did, and not because they liked that the bike was > 1 pound heavier.
Just build a mixed surface bike myself. Still have air in the line of the front brake, and the rear is mechanical / hydro. Braking hard is so much better than rim brakes.
Will miss the ease of throwing the bike around in the back of the truck though.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Professional bike racers are essentially an arm of the sponsor's marketing departments, and their number one job is to put their sponsor's products in a good light. In many cases, pros are required to use and display specific sponsor products. This is the case with Shimano - Shimano has required their sponsored racers to use disc brakes. Maybe the racers prefer them, maybe they don't - in either case, the public will probably never know their true feelings. Sponsored racers must abide by their contracts, which generally include non-disparagement clause, which will put them in violation of the contract if they ever say anything negative about the sponsor or their products. (In many cases, the contracts will specifically not allow the racer's to even divulge what is in the contract, such as what a racer is specifically is required to say or not say about a sponsored product).

[glepore]

Useless was his nickname—U.S pro champion one or two years back in the day when there were only two or three pros in the states and Jock Boyer was stuck on the continent. Even in those races, he finished behind top amateurs but got the “championship” since he had the “pro” license..

I wouldn’t take his thoughts on disc brakes too seriously.

He was an ok race promoter, at least he didn't leave cities hanging. Ran Univest successfully for years, and still does the Bucks Co. races.

I don't get the disc hate. Its a choice. They're not evil if you want a swiss army knife bike with wide wheels and tires. Can't do a reasonable rim brake. Not my cuppa, but I'm not going to bow down before every negative comment and shout out "told ya!"

[Spdntrxi]

He was an ok race promoter, at least he didn't leave cities hanging. Ran Univest successfully for years, and still does the Bucks Co. races.

I don't get the disc hate. Its a choice. They're not evil if you want a swiss army knife bike with wide wheels and tires. Can't do a reasonable rim brake. Not my cuppa, but I'm not going to bow down before every negative comment and shout out "told ya!"

The hate comes from top on the line bikes no longer being made for rim brake by and ever increasing number of manufacturers. At least that's what I think.

I have both

[colker]

The hate comes from top on the line bikes no longer being made for rim brake by and ever increasing number of manufacturers. At least that's what I think.

I have both


Since when choosing something based on rationale became hate?

[Mark McM]

I don't get the disc hate. Its a choice. They're not evil if you want a swiss army knife bike with wide wheels and tires. Can't do a reasonable rim brake. Not my cuppa, but I'm not going to bow down before every negative comment and shout out "told ya!"

I don't see any disc brake hate here. Let's not bring this down the level of the polarization that's gripping America these days. Not preferring disc brakes is in no way hating them.

[Gummee]

I don't see any disc brake hate here. Let's not bring this down the level of the polarization that's gripping America these days. Not preferring disc brakes is in no way hating them.

Is too!

My choice of [insert widget here] is THE BEST and anyone who disagrees is a racist/bigot/hater/whatever

At least that seems to be the norm in 'discussions' around the ole innerwebs

I have all 3: cantis, discs, and dual pivot brakes so I'm pretty well agnostic. I actually really liked V-brakes till it got muddy. I managed to wear thru a pair of rims on my first mtn bike! Split that Araya in half top to bottom!

M

[colker]

I don't see any disc brake hate here. Let's not bring this down the level of the polarization that's gripping America these days. Not preferring disc brakes is in no way hating them.

It´s the internet lingo: devolution of language.

[Caballero]

I haven’t read all of this thread, but commenting to the first post regarding pros and team mechanics views on discs, their performance, reliability and desirability in the pro peloton is 120% accurate.

Nobody wants them, they’re forced upon them and as mentioned they bring some issues that weren’t issues before and solve very few if any issues previously related to rim brakes. (Other than overheating carbon clinchers)

I’m not averse to discs, I’d only use them on a mtb as they make sense in muddy off-road conditions, but for the foreseeable future I’ll holdout on discs and keep rim brakes alive !

[Schredder]

I have weighed them. They were true to advertised with a +/-10 g.
The AM classic Mags were not sturdy at all. Heck, even the alloy Stan's alpha 340 with 340 g rim weight were not the best ones out there.

My point being: I can ride 270 g carbon rims with nary a concern. But I cannot say the same for AC Magnesiums.

Also, there are some lighter carbon rims at 265 g that I want to try out. I think they should be fine as well. Will let you know if I ever end up with a wheelset.

Due the the low rims weights of carbon, we are seeing really low weight carbon clincher wheelsets that were not possible (to ride reliably at least for me and my 145 lb weight) with alloy wheelsets. Here are two wheelsets that I ordered for my gravel bike. Check out the weights! And these rims were not even the lightest at 320 g. As I said, these weights were unheard of in the alloy era especially with heavier disc hubs!

Maybe I missed it, but what brand/model are these wheels?

[Spdntrxi]

Since when choosing something based on rationale became hate?

someone said it's a choice.. it's not when it's not offered. That's the hate..less choices. Lets face it , there is large enough section of cyclist that want the latest and greatest from fill in the blank mfg.

[Old School]

Maybe I missed it, but what brand/model are these wheels?

Xiamen BTLOS beyond the limits of self

[tomato coupe]

I haven’t read all of this thread, but commenting to the first post regarding pros and team mechanics views on discs, their performance, reliability and desirability in the pro peloton is 120% accurate.

Nobody wants them...
That's not what it says:

As far as the riders go opinion is divided, some love them, some don’t.

[colker]

Xiamen BTLOS beyond the limits of self

Wow... did someone drop acid to come up w/ that name?

[Caballero]

That's not what it says:

I’d say the ones that love them are the newer pros, just signed and have no right to express what they like or don’t or for fear of upsetting the bandwagon for fear of losing a contract, or the ones at the top with a lot of pressure from the big sponsors.

They love them !

[tomato coupe]

I’d say the ones that love them are the newer pros, just signed and have no right to express what they like or don’t for fear of upsetting the bandwagon.
Sure ... whatever you say.

[Spoker]

And then the moment pro riders objected the disk brakes were braking so much quicker ,that it was causing crashes for the riders on rim brakes.
Not saying "better" but the performance is there.

[colker]

Sure ... whatever you say.

C´mon; where do you need more braking in pro road racing?
No one hates discs. They are great on mountain bikes.
Fine.. some want it on road bikes. There are many top of the line specimens w/ discs. Happy? No; if you don´t need discs on a road racing bike you are a hater.
That may fly somewhere else not here.

[tomato coupe]

C´mon; where do you need more braking in pro road racing?
No one hates discs. They are great on mountain bikes.
Fine.. some want it on road bikes. There are many top of the line specimens w/ discs. Happy? No; if you don´t need discs on a road racing bike you are a hater.
That may fly somewhere else not here.
What does any of this have to do with my comment?

[Peter P.]

It seems all the comments about needing disc brakes to fit tires bigger than 25-28mm assume that rim brakes only come in short reach configuration. I have had a couple of bikes with mid-reach brakes including the Rivendell Rambouillet that I still have.....

My custom steel frame and steel fork were built with short reach brakes set to maximum reach. As a result, I can fit 28's with ease.

The advent of carbon forks really limited the ease with which you could fit a larger tire. In the rear there are some limitations although it's not as restrictive. Had the market gone back to a mid-reach (47-57mm) caliper brake as standard with carbon frames, there would be fewer issues with tire limitations.

Disc brakes seem to make sense with carbon rims, especially in the wet, where carbon rims and reduced braking power are real issues, let alone the reduced braking power of carbon rims when dry (hence all the fancy carbon rim brake pad formulations).

As long as carbon frames and carbon rims dominate the racing market, disc brakes will dominate as well. People want their bikes to "look pro" even if they're not running carbon rims. I'm inclined to agree with all of John Eustice's observations; eliminate rotor warping/brake rub and speed up wheel changes. Bikes are so light now that any disc brake weight penalty should be considered a non-issue.

[rain dogs]

I don't see any disc brake hate here. Let's not bring this down the level of the polarization that's gripping America these days. Not preferring disc brakes is in no way hating them.

At the same time, preferring disc brakes doesn't make you a simpleton slave to marketers either, which is often the sound of the 'other side' of the argument's numerous threads on why this new technology/product offering is not preferred (not to polarize).

After all, this thread was started with the underlying assumption that "so and so pro doesn't want disc brakes, therefore..."

Sure, rim brakes have been around for decades, I use them and enjoy them, but disc brakes provide advantages that rim brakes both struggle with (very wide tires) or simply cannot realistically do (700c to 650b swap).

However, we're still here polarizing the argument - ie. #savetherimbrake etc. and the long line of logic used in threads like these.

[oldpotatoe]

I’d say the ones that love them are the newer pros, just signed and have no right to express what they like or don’t or for fear of upsetting the bandwagon for fear of losing a contract, or the ones at the top with a lot of pressure from the big sponsors.

They love them !

I'd say the below speaks volumes. I am pretty sure if Froome, Thomas or Bernal wanted disc brakes, they would have them..
I kept thinking about Team Ineos who, with that massive budget allowing them free rein in equipment choice, combined with their deep research abilities, have stuck to rim brakes.

[Caballero]

I'd say the below speaks volumes. I am pretty sure if Froome, Thomas or Bernal wanted disc brakes, they would have them..

Exactly, the top pros have the option of what to ride, and they choose rim brakes. The pros who don’t bring the same clout ride what they’re told. Wether they like them or not they’ll sing the praises and tow the line.

I’ll stand by my comment above that pros, mechanics do not want discs. This is not my opinion.

Discs are great, just not needed for road. All road, gravel, cx, mtb etc... sure they’re great.

[oldpotatoe]

Exactly, the top pros have the option of what to ride, and they choose rim brakes. The pros who don’t bring the same clout ride what they’re told. Wether they like them or not they’ll sing the praises and tow the line.

I’ll stand by my comment above that pros, mechanics do not want discs. This is not my opinion.

Discs are great, just not needed for road. All road, gravel, cx, mtb etc... sure they’re great.

Pro teams get frames and boxes of components. The wrenches then build the bikes, LOTS of bikes. When a rider complains about their disc brakes, the wrench needs to fix them. Maintaining disc brakes, in the professional pelOton is MUCH more time consuming than rim brakes. Particularly when disc brake lines are run internally, like most of them are now.

Wheel changes are slower, even rotors on the same brand of wheels/hubs sometimes need to be tweaked so you don't get that, 'snick, snick, snick' of rubbing. Disc brake pads are MUCH closer to the rotor than pads to the rim on rim brakes.

Remember why disc brakes came to be in MTB..sloppy, muddy conditions? still have brakes. Wack a wheel? Still have brakes..these don't apply to road riding..

But, they are here, most big boy manufacturers don't even offer 2020 road bikes with rim brakes(Giant??)...I wouldn't want to be the guys and gals in the MAVIC neutral support car...:eek:

Geez, brakes slow you down, rim brakes work great, are cheaper, more simple, lighter. Disc brakes are market driven, in road bikes. For a gent off the front, in most any pro race, how often does he even USE his brakes??

[Davist]

I'd say the below speaks volumes. I am pretty sure if Froome, Thomas or Bernal wanted disc brakes, they would have them..

eh, those Pinarellos were pretty portly, unlike the Specialized/Cannondale/Canyon whatevers, so it could just as easily be a decision based on tonnage to keep to UCI minimum weights.. we know how fiddly those guys are about weight, remember the lightweight brand wheels?

While Nairo may NOT be at the same level of "discretion" he climbed pretty well at Paris Nice on presumably minimum weight disc Canyon

[nickl]

eh, those Pinarellos were pretty portly, unlike the Specialized/Cannondale/Canyon whatevers, so it could just as easily be a decision based on tonnage to keep to UCI minimum weights.. we know how fiddly those guys are about weight, remember the lightweight brand wheels?

While Nairo may NOT be at the same level of "discretion" he climbed pretty well at Paris Nice on presumably minimum weight disc Canyon

Pinarello, Bianchi, Colnago, Lapierre and other pro team suppliers have the capability to build disc brake bikes that will make weight. See OP’s earlier post for the real rationale for teams still using discs.

[tylercheung]

I'm actually wondering - maybe it's better to use mountain bike calipers vs. the road ones to eliminate the warping and pinging...

[Gummee]

I'm actually wondering - maybe it's better to use mountain bike calipers vs. the road ones to eliminate the warping and pinging...

Rotors? Maybe.

Calipers are effectively the same across the lines

M

[alancw3]

Disc Brakes are a God sent for all of us quality high end used bike buyers. Can't believe the deals out there on high end rim brake bikes! I love disc brakes! :-)

[Robot870]

disc brakes are a god sent for all of us quality high end used bike buyers. Can't believe the deals out there on high end rim brake bikes! I love disc brakes! :-)

lmfbo!

[Clancy]

Pro teams get frames and boxes of components. The wrenches then build the bikes, LOTS of bikes. When a rider complains about their disc brakes, the wrench needs to fix them. Maintaining disc brakes, in the professional pelOton is MUCH more time consuming than rim brakes. Particularly when disc brake lines are run internally, like most of them are now.

Wheel changes are slower, even rotors on the same brand of wheels/hubs sometimes need to be tweaked so you don't get that, 'snick, snick, snick' of rubbing. Disc brake pads are MUCH closer to the rotor than pads to the rim on rim brakes.

Remember why disc brakes came to be in MTB..sloppy, muddy conditions? still have brakes. Wack a wheel? Still have brakes..these don't apply to road riding..

But, they are here, most big boy manufacturers don't even offer 2020 road bikes with rim brakes(Giant??)...I wouldn't want to be the guys and gals in the MAVIC neutral support car...:eek:

Geez, brakes slow you down, rim brakes work great, are cheaper, more simple, lighter. Disc brakes are market driven, in road bikes. For a gent off the front, in most any pro race, how often does he even USE his brakes??

Voice of wisdom. This thread can stop now ;)

[Mikej]

Discs are awesome, road and mtb. They are just not that difficult to deal with and they work so good.

[NHAero]

And on rim brake, QR wheels!

Disc Brakes are a God sent for all of us quality high end used bike buyers. Can't believe the deals out there on high end rim brake bikes! I love disc brakes! :-)

[shamsixnine]

Disc Brakes are fugly. My only reason to stick with rim brakes:p

[cdimattio]

Useless was his nickname—U.S pro champion one or two years back in the day when there were only two or three pros in the states and Jock Boyer was stuck on the continent. Even in those races, he finished behind top amateurs but got the “championship” since he had the “pro” license..

I wouldn’t take his thoughts on disc brakes too seriously.

I am really put off by the sanctimonious disdain expressed here. John is a legend in informed cycling circles and has a lifetime passion for cycling and the sport of cycling. For years he was the face of America’s Tour de France coverage. Like it or not he has deep roots in cycling has an insider perspective and access in the racing world that most here could never appreciate. There is no doubt that he converses with pro team staff. He was a pioneering European pro, a notable television cycling commentator, a fixture in local amateur racing as a significant race promoter for decades and has been a lifetime cycling advocate.

In my youth, John was very generous with his time coaching and mentoring young cyclists (and there were no coaching fees involved). He will forever have my respect and personal gratitude.

With regard to brakes and racing cyclists, I am dating myself but can recall instruction from 'Eddie B' Borysewicz that you are racing and you should not be touching your brakes. Skilled riders use positioning and draft management to adjust speed and avoid ever touching a brake lever. All of us may aspire to ride professional cycling equipment but Elite and Professional Racers have different needs than most of us.

[e-RICHIE]

I am really put off by the sanctimonious disdain expressed here. John is a legend in informed cycling circles and has a lifetime passion for cycling and the sport of cycling. For years he was the face of America’s Tour de France coverage. Like it or not he has deep roots in cycling has an insider perspective and access in the racing world that most here could never appreciate. There is no doubt that he converses with pro team staff. He was a pioneering European pro, a notable television cycling commentator, a fixture in local amateur racing as a significant race promoter for decades and has been a lifetime cycling advocate.

In my youth, John was very generous with his time coaching and mentoring young cyclists (and there were no coaching fees involved). He will forever have my respect and personal gratitude.

With regard to brakes and racing cyclists, I am dating myself but can recall instruction from 'Eddie B' Borysewicz that you are racing and you should not be touching your brakes. Skilled riders use positioning and draft management to adjust speed and avoid ever touching a brake lever. All of us may aspire to ride professional cycling equipment but Elite and Professional Racers have different needs than most of us.
Agreed.

[Burnette]

I am really put off by the sanctimonious disdain expressed here. John is a legend in informed cycling circles and has a lifetime passion for cycling and the sport of cycling. For years he was the face of America’s Tour de France coverage. Like it or not he has deep roots in cycling has an insider perspective and access in the racing world that most here could never appreciate. There is no doubt that he converses with pro team staff. He was a pioneering European pro, a notable television cycling commentator, a fixture in local amateur racing as a significant race promoter for decades and has been a lifetime cycling advocate.

In my youth, John was very generous with his time coaching and mentoring young cyclists (and there were no coaching fees involved). He will forever have my respect and personal gratitude.

With regard to brakes and racing cyclists, I am dating myself but can recall instruction from 'Eddie B' Borysewicz that you are racing and you should not be touching your brakes. Skilled riders use positioning and draft management to adjust speed and avoid ever touching a brake lever. All of us may aspire to ride professional cycling equipment but Elite and Professional Racers have different needs than most of us.

Pro cycling is and had always been a marketing tool and the fact that cheating/doping is it's real legacy makes it a moot metric to validate or negate componentry based upon it.

Most people don't even know or care who John is and buy based on their own individual wants and needs, be it rim or disc.

It's like arguing about the past at this point. Both are available and people are choosing what is right for them, regardless of whatever "authority" figure is foisted into the mix, people don't care. Like everyone else, we spend our own dollars on what we want. And seriously, everyone should be OK with that.

It's bicycle components that work, to make it anything other than that won't change the outcomes of what others choose to do.

[colker]

Pro cycling is and had always been a marketing tool and the fact that cheating/doping is it's real legacy makes it a moot metric to validate or negate componentry based upon it.

Most people don't even know or care who John is and buy based on their own individual wants and needs, be it rim or disc.

It's like arguing about the past at this point. Both are available and people are choosing what is right for them, regardless of whatever "authority" figure is foisted into the mix, people don't care. Like everyone else, we spend our own dollars on what we want. And seriously, everyone should be OK with that.

It's bicycle components that work, to make it anything other than that won't change the outcomes of what others choose to do.

Right.. but i have a hard time believing all the talk of independent thinking when we are on a cycling forum to be influenced by others bikes and opinons. Otoh pro road cycling legacy is more than doping. Actually paceline and serotta are part of pro road cycling tradition. If he said disc brakes is bliss on earth would you sing the same tune?

[Mikej]

Go ask a 22 year old what is cooler, yeah, that’s the future- not us old curmudgeons bitching about sloping top tubes and silver component groups-let that sink in, it’s not about what this forum says.

[Burnette]

Right.. but i have a hard time believing all the talk of independent thinking when we are on a cycling forum to be influenced by others bikes and opinons. Otoh pro road cycling legacy is more than doping. Actually paceline and serotta are part of pro road cycling tradition. If he said disc brakes is bliss on earth would you sing the same tune?



It would make no difference. None.

[Alaska Mike]

I have yet to ride a disc brake bike that I liked as much as my "antiquated" Moots Compact(s), RSL, or Merlin Agilis.

Don't get me wrong, I have wasted a lot of money trying. I've gone through a lot of bikes with disc brakes, hydraulic and mechanical. None of them lasted more than a few months. To be honest, it wasn't the braking (which I really liked on the hydraulics), but the geometry and or design that the addition of disc brakes necessitated. I wish I could quantify it, but they all just felt "off". Early on, it was probably because manufacturers stuck discs on more endurance and off-pavement models, which has never been my preferred geometry. However, I did have a couple race-oriented road bikes with discs than just didn't float my boat either, from manufacturers I used to gravitate towards. As the designs have matured, I keep hoping I'll find one I like. So far, no luck. Plus, newer designs keep getting saddled with internal cable routing and press-fit bottom brackets, which makes me like them even less.

As long as I can support them with brake pads, I'll probably own at least a couple rim brake bikes.

[rain dogs]

...

[Alaska Mike]

I don't ride disc brakes because Trek put them on their pro bikes. I ride them because I don't race road bikes. I ride a more "road geometry" gravel bike, and disc brakes allow my to do things on my gravel bike that were always a pain in the butt on previous bikes - 1. fitting larger than 25c tires, 2. Using fenders on long bikepacking trips 3. Swapping wheels (700c to 650b) which previously wasn't even on my radar. 4.Riding through Mud and water and still having brakes. etc. I'm slow by racing standards no matter what bike I'm on, so racing "standards" do not apply to me. I'm basically the same "medium speed" on this gravel bike as my previous road "racing" style bike.... but with more advantages/versatility.

It's different worlds.

All valid reasons for having discs. I really liked having discs on my CX bike. They made sense in the application. I liked having discs when I used to pull my daughter in her trainer or on a tag-a-long bike. I liked discs on a rainy descent (although contact patch usually had more to do with stopping than brake type).

A lot of us feel like the abandonment of rim brakes by the industry is more about planned obsolescence than for any real pragmatic reason. Rim brakes have gotten pretty darn good for the road application. They're simple and light.

Ride what works for you.

[Davist]

If he said disc brakes is bliss on earth would you sing the same tune?

If he actually RODE a disc brake bike, who knows what he might say? that's the whole thing here.. "I spoke to mechanics" etc..

[colker]

If he actually RODE a disc brake bike, who knows what he might say? that's the whole thing here.. "I spoke to mechanics" etc..

I never rode a disc brake road bike and i still don´t need better braking. I won´t even try to explain it or i will be called this and that..
On a road bike, braking is not that big of a deal to me. A supple steel fork otoh is a big deal and it is not possible w/a disc brake. I made my choice.

[mcteague]

I have yet to ride a disc brake bike that I liked as much as my "antiquated" Moots Compact(s), RSL, or Merlin Agilis.

Don't get me wrong, I have wasted a lot of money trying. I've gone through a lot of bikes with disc brakes, hydraulic and mechanical. None of them lasted more than a few months. To be honest, it wasn't the braking (which I really liked on the hydraulics), but the geometry and or design that the addition of disc brakes necessitated. I wish I could quantify it, but they all just felt "off". Early on, it was probably because manufacturers stuck discs on more endurance and off-pavement models, which has never been my preferred geometry. However, I did have a couple race-oriented road bikes with discs than just didn't float my boat either, from manufacturers I used to gravitate towards. As the designs have matured, I keep hoping I'll find one I like. So far, no luck. Plus, newer designs keep getting saddled with internal cable routing and press-fit bottom brackets, which makes me like them even less.

As long as I can support them with brake pads, I'll probably own at least a couple rim brake bikes.

My understanding is that the fork and chainstays need to be beefed up to handle the added stress of disk brakes. Often, much of the ride quality we treasure is lost. Smart builders can adjust to this but, I suppose, many really don't put a lot of thought into it and just stiffen things up to handle the load.

Tim

[merckx]

One of god's gifts to humankind was the creation of a lightweight, springy steel bicycle frame. Fasten a pair of lightweight tubs to it, and you will have the opportunity to get a glimpse beyond the pearly gates. This goes for a C40 as well. Line up your Cinelli 65s in the cross-hairs of a stone road that Napoleon's army laid down, and give it full gas.

Then we began to dabble in over-sized this, and over-sized that. We began creating bricks that weighed nothing. Disc brakes are fabulous momentum stoppers. They also required the addition of using a few more bricks to reinforce the frame against torsional forces and stress. The solution to mitigate the feeling of sitting on a brick while rolling over stones was to increase tire volume. This is a reasonable solution. It really makes a difference. Some claim that it is even faster. I can't disagree.

Our choice becomes a visceral one. The two examples that I gave feel very different on the road. One is not better than the other. We are lucky we still have a choice.

[fa63]

One of god's gifts to humankind was the creation of a lightweight, springy steel bicycle frame...

...Our choice becomes a visceral one. The two examples that I gave feel very different on the road. One is not better than the other. We are lucky we still have a choice.
My last two road bikes were Quiring XCR stainless steel (rim brake) and Felt FR Disc. I had the same fit on both, and with the same tires at the same pressure (Vittoria Corsa G+), the Felt rode better. This is with the Quiring on Campy Zondas, and the Felt on Reynolds carbon clinchers (which generally have a reputation for being radially stiffer and thus harsher riding).

My current one and only bike, an Argon 18 Dark Matter, rides harsher on pavement than either of those two but it rides great off-road on 42c gravel tires.

But it is nice to have choices indeed :-)

[Burnette]

I never rode a disc brake road bike and i still don´t need better braking. I won´t even try to explain it or i will be called this and that..
On a road bike, braking is not that big of a deal to me. A supple steel fork otoh is a big deal and it is not possible w/a disc brake. I made my choice.

At the end of the day that's all it is, preference. Personal preference.

It's folly and actually a hurtful thing to say people chose one or the other because they're sheep or that one or the other type are unnecessary or doesn't work. It may be right or wrong for you but you can only speak for yourself and the like minded.

These threads change nothing, nothing at all and serve as a salve for some, I get it, but where it's wrong is to disparage another for their choice or use irrelevant subject matter as some kind if "proof" of anything. It is not.

People in this online community and outside of it chose a different path than you and they aren't "wrong" for their choice, neither are you for yours. We should be tolerant of something as mundane and simple as bicycles and their componentry. It baffles me why anyone would draw the line here. Recent events should highlight how empty this fight is.

The world moves on whether you like it or not, but see the person who chose a different path on something as simple as a bicycle as a brother or sister, a friend or acquaintance or at base level, another human being.

There's angst and worry over the subject by some and I get no satisfaction from that. To the contrary, I have sympathy for the feelings of loss. All I can say is that if you have the means you can acquire whatever you wish and that will be the case for a long time.

No thread, no article, no one or group of people will get you to change and that's OK in my book. No thread, no article, no one or group of people will change anything here or outside, people buy what they want with their own money. And again, we should all be OK with that.

[R3awak3n]

Its why you have to take peoples opinions with a grain of salt... a lot of people saying discs are not needed, not good, ect but never have tried them. It is the same for a lot of things in this forum where people have a strong opinion and hate on stuff. Tubulars, rapha, sram, ect... "but I have heard that"... "I am fine with what I have"... "all pros hate this" its all generalizations and are even less valid imo when they come from people that have 0 experience with the product and with what they are talking about.

I want to hear the opinion of people that actually tried it, and not for a 10 mile ride, people that have had the stuff for many miles and look, I believe that some people will NOT like discs, its totally fine but use it and then form an opinion. I have both and they are both great. I actually been ridding my rim brake bike more lately, its great, I love it and do not want to be without a rim brake bike but discs are also great. I also don't care if its marketing, marketing brings money to the bike industry and makes a stronger industry with more events, more support which will equal in more people on bikes. Same with the hate for gravel... its a fad, its stupid, yada yada but so many new people on bikes, whats not to like?

[merckx]

My last two road bikes were Quiring XCR stainless steel (rim brake) and Felt FR Disc. I had the same fit on both, and with the same tires at the same pressure (Vittoria Corsa G+), the Felt rode better. This is with the Quiring on Campy Zondas, and the Felt on Reynolds carbon clinchers (which generally have a reputation for being radially stiffer and thus harsher riding).

My current one and only bike, an Argon 18 Dark Matter, rides harsher on pavement than either of those two but it rides great off-road on 42c gravel tires.

But it is nice to have choices indeed :-)

This is good stuff. Let's see a pic of your Quiring.

[colker]

Its why you have to take peoples opinions with a grain of salt... a lot of people saying discs are not needed, not good, ect but never have tried them. It is the same for a lot of things in this forum where people have a strong opinion and hate on stuff. Tubulars, rapha, sram, ect... "but I have heard that"... "I am fine with what I have"... "all pros hate this" its all generalizations and are even less valid imo when they come from people that have 0 experience with the product and with what they are talking about.

I want to hear the opinion of people that actually tried it, and not for a 10 mile ride, people that have had the stuff for many miles and look, I believe that some people will NOT like discs, its totally fine but use it and then form an opinion. I have both and they are both great. I actually been ridding my rim brake bike more lately, its great, I love it and do not want to be without a rim brake bike but discs are also great. I also don't care if its marketing, marketing brings money to the bike industry and makes a stronger industry with more events, more support which will equal in more people on bikes. Same with the hate for gravel... its a fad, its stupid, yada yada but so many new people on bikes, whats not to like?



The use of "hate" to describe criticsm and opinion. Please stop.. it´s banalizing hatred.

So you don´t want to hear opinions of those who never tried... What if we apply the same logic to drugs: "Squares" are against it because they never tried.

It´s about consequences. There are mods needed on how a frame and fork are built. It´s a rational decision based on logic not on like, hate, age, cool, sell, buy. Based on ride quality of the frames, ease of wheel change and other details.

Most of all it´s about where you ride the bike.. if you don´t brake much or ride in the wet why have a heavier, stiffer bike?

you don´t want to hear opinons, fine. Cancel, block, ignore.

[unterhausen]

Smart builders can adjust to this but, I suppose, many really don't put a lot of thought into it and just stiffen things up to handle the load.

I'm an engineer and a framebuilder. I don't see any smart builders out there that are doing anything that is particularly interesting to me. I have seen enough failed forks that I'm not particularly interested in doing something other than beefy fork blades. There is not much you can do in the rear triangle either, but there is very little compliance to be had back there anyway.

[Black Dog]

Here is my view of a big picture. It is all good to argue and debate the nuances of bikes to death, that is one of our reasons for existing here on the paceline. It's all a theological debate of sorts. I certainly have my preferences and dare I say; biases. I really don't judge others, or certainly admonish myself when I start to do so. I will say this. If all the bikes in my garage disappeared and someone then said to me you can only ride (insert bike/parts that are polar opposite to your preferences) or no bike at all. I am going to put on my kit and get ready to ride. I love to ride and I love bikes, in that order. I suspect that most everyone here shares a similar sentiment. It's ok to get passionate and squabble over the details long past the absurd. It's what we love. However, lets not forget that and offer to buy each other the 1st beer after the debate. I will share a ride with anyone here, no matte what bike you ride (even a Pinarello Dogma with discs ;) ).

:)

[robt57]

I will interject yet a little more opinion.

Just some factors/considerations. Aggressive riding=more brake needs and confidence for me.

I am at lower weight than I have been in last 20 years:

>40 lb heavier I had much more challenging performance factors stopping.
>The best brakes are especially important when you and the bike net out at 260+ lb.
>A lot more of us have this type of challenge than the pros we are citing.

>Still think a 28" disc is just fine. have lots of both.
>How clean do you keep your braking surfaces and pads?
>Brake pads materials are a lot better now that ever before.

>Always despised carbon rims with rim brakes. Any lesser performance issue definite wrong direction for me.

>Now at 198 lb. and Swiss Stop Black prince pads I have no problem with brake performance on my one carbon wheeled rim brake bike. In fact use them front and cork dejour on the rears.

>When heavier I had a 180mm disc front of my disc all road varieties. On dirt 160s fine. Back to 160s on all.

Like a weaker rear brake, so single rear or smaller rear disc suites.

The comment "How Often do Pros use brake" [para phrase] with all due respect to me is plain silly.

I MotoCXed for a decade and braked as least often as possible [practicable] always. In aggressive riding and certainly bike racing the short windows of brake use performance is paramount IMO. Try braking late into a chicane on a motorcycle on the track with less than stellar brakes for example.

Not riding in groups anymore, my braking needs are less critical than once were. Not to mention @ 62 I'd sure rather come off @ 30-35 than 45-50, so I actually do brake in a lot more places than I one did.

Pro arguments/analogy to us mortals seems superfluous, what do we loose if we brake really? ;)

[R3awak3n]

The use of "hate" to describe criticsm and opinion. Please stop.. it´s banalizing hatred.

So you don´t want to hear opinions of those who never tried... What if we apply the same logic to drugs: "Squares" are against it because they never tried.

It´s about consequences. There are mods needed on how a frame and fork are built. It´s a rational decision based on logic not on like, hate, age, cool, sell, buy. Based on ride quality of the frames, ease of wheel change and other details.

Most of all it´s about where you ride the bike.. if you don´t brake much or ride in the wet why have a heavier, stiffer bike?

you don´t want to hear opinons, fine. Cancel, block, ignore.


I want to hear opinions of people that have experience on the subject. You mention drugs, why would I want to hear the opinion of someone who has never smoked weed on the effects of weed? And as far as harder drugs go, I never tried heroin and have no interest in it but its a drug that is very addictive and could kill you... disc brakes not gonna do that. give them a try.

You talking about a stiffer bike and discs but you never tried a bike with discs. So I take you also don't think carbon forks are not for a road bike? What about modern shifters as they add useless weight?

I am fine having discussions and I am not going to block anyone and trust me, I ignore a lot of stuff.



And for real. What do you ride? I feel like you never talk about what you ride, or the kind of rides you do.

[Burnette]

The use of "hate" to describe criticsm and opinion. Please stop.. it´s banalizing hatred.

So you don´t want to hear opinions of those who never tried... What if we apply the same logic to drugs: "Squares" are against it because they never tried.

It´s about consequences. There are mods needed on how a frame and fork are built. It´s a rational decision based on logic not on like, hate, age, cool, sell, buy. Based on ride quality of the frames, ease of wheel change and other details.

Most of all it´s about where you ride the bike.. if you don´t brake much or ride in the wet why have a heavier, stiffer bike?

you don´t want to hear opinons, fine. Cancel, block, ignore.

It's the same tired narrative that a frame that's disc compatible is less than. It isn't and it's and argument to bolster a personal feeling, it's not a fact.

The bulk of the industry and the trade market side show of Pro cycling moved on from everything you love about a bicycles decades ago.

Disc brakes are just the latest affront and it gets a lot of heat from you and others but it's been over for a long time.

The bright side is that you can still find and buy exactly what you want in quantity and quality.

[hobbanero]

It is nice to have this religious war to distract us these days.

I am on rim brakes at the moment but have had disc brake road bikes, and I really enjoyed the light lever feel and excellent modulation of the discs, even in the dry. I did not like the inconsistent bite point at the lever, or the too frequently "ping ping ping" of a slightly out of true disc. Also, the pads howling in the wet discouraged me from braking in the conditions where discs should shine.

As a halfway measure, I bought HED Jet Black wheels for my winter road bike. Great stopping in the wet, but the simplicity and adjustability of rim brakes.

I keep hoping that each new generation of brakes will address the issues, but that doesn't seem to happen. But my next road bike will have discs, because I want to ride on 28-30mm tires, and for those to be aero, you need very wide rims (eg Enve AR style). And I must be aero, because.....uhm I don't remember why at the moment, but it is very important.

At the end of the day, rim brakes are actually discs....two pads clamping on a rotating braking surface. So maybe we can all get along.

Oh...and Ineos ride rim brakes because their bikes are pigs as it is.

[basilic]

I want to hear opinions of people that have experience on the subject.

For many people, here's the rub: the cost of entry. I'm not spending 5k on a new bike just to try something I'm not convinced about. I did a half day on a borrowed disc bike, and thought it was fine, nothing earth-shattering, but I didn't test it fully, and obviously didn't deal with maintenance. I don't feel that bad braking (on rim brakes) causes me any problems. So all I have to go on to form an opinion are arguments - braking, weight, stiffness, maintenance...

[R3awak3n]

For many people, here's the rub: the cost of entry. I'm not spending 5k on a new bike just to try something I'm not convinced about. I did a half day on a borrowed disc bike, and thought it was fine, nothing earth-shattering, but I didn't test it fully, and obviously didn't deal with maintenance. I don't feel that bad braking (on rim brakes) causes me any problems. So all I have to go on to form an opinion are arguments - braking, weight, stiffness, maintenance...

well at least you tried it so to me, you have a valid opinion

[Burnette]

Here is my view of a big picture. It is all good to argue and debate the nuances of bikes to death, that is one of our reasons for existing here on the paceline. It's all a theological debate of sorts. I certainly have my preferences and dare I say; biases. I really don't judge others, or certainly admonish myself when I start to do so. I will say this. If all the bikes in my garage disappeared and someone then said to me you can only ride (insert bike/parts that are polar opposite to your preferences) or no bike at all. I am going to put on my kit and get ready to ride. I love to ride and I love bikes, in that order. I suspect that most everyone here shares a similar sentiment. It's ok to get passionate and squabble over the details long past the absurd. It's what we love. However, lets not forget that and offer to buy each other the 1st beer after the debate. I will share a ride with anyone here, no matte what bike you ride (even a Pinarello Dogma with discs ;) ).

:)

Agree, people first, then stuff.

[Alaska Mike]

Agree, people first, then stuff.

... are you lumping bikes in with stuff? If so, I strongly disagree. 😉

[pbarry]

well at least you tried it so to me, you have a valid opinion

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! :)

[tomato coupe]

This thread started with quotes from a 60-year-old former pro racer, who doesn't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes. Fair enough. But, as a counterpoint, here are some quotes from a 65-year-old former pro racer:

"It’s the most secure braking system, whether it rains or not. Whether you have carbon or aluminium rims, it doesn’t change anything."

"If I was a pro, I’d have disc brakes. It works."

"Technically it has a lot of advantages. When you descend a col, with disc brakes you can brake 10 metres later than the others so you gain an enormous amount of time. And you start out again quicker than the others out of every corner. If you have an advantage of 5 metres, and you do this 200 times a day, it adds up."

-- Bernard Hinault

[Mark McM]

well at least you tried it so to me, you have a valid opinion

This a logical fallacy, of the type that is widely repeated on this forum. Have you ever jumped off a bridge, or tried to surf a tsunami (people have done both)? Do you have a valid opinion whether those are good ideas or not? You don't have to have personal experience with something to form a perfectly valid opinion. I think most agree with this famous quote:


“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”

― Otto von Bismarck

Which gets back us back to the John Eustice article. In this article, Eustice relates that he wants a new bike, and wants to know if he should get one with disc brakes. He asks those who have experience with them, whose opinion he respects (team mechanics). After gathering their opinions, he decides not to go with disc brakes. And that's it. He doesn't go into a diatribe against disc brakes, he is just trying to learn from experience of others.

[R3awak3n]

This a logical fallacy, of the type that is widely repeated on this forum. Have you ever jumped off a bridge, or tried to surf a tsunami (people have done both)? Do you have a valid opinion whether those are good ideas or not? You don't have to have personal experience with something to form a perfectly valid opinion. I think most agree with this famous quote:


“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”

― Otto von Bismarck

Which gets back us back to the John Eustice article. In this article, Eustice relates that he wants a new bike, and wants to know if he should get one with disc brakes. He asks those who have experience with them, whose opinion he respects (team mechanics). After gathering their opinions, he decides not to go with disc brakes. And that's it. He doesn't go into a diatribe against disc brakes, he is just trying to learn from experience of others.

I would not give you my opinion on jumping of a bridge or surfing a tsunami because I have never done either. Are they good ideas? They are not because they could result in death. Trying a disc bike is not going to result **** anything but maybe you might want to buy one or you might not like it but you can now form a proper opinion on it.

That quote from Bismark is great but does not apply to this topic. We are talking about bikes here, not life changing situations. Do you agree though, that someone that has jumped of a bridge and survived has a better opinion on that than someone who has not?

[Burnette]

This a logical fallacy, of the type that is widely repeated on this forum. Have you ever jumped off a bridge, or tried to surf a tsunami (people have done both)? Do you have a valid opinion whether those are good ideas or not? You don't have to have personal experience with something to form a perfectly valid opinion. I think most agree with this famous quote:


“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”

― Otto von Bismarck

Which gets back us back to the John Eustice article. In this article, Eustice relates that he wants a new bike, and wants to know if he should get one with disc brakes. He asks those who have experience with them, whose opinion he respects (team mechanics). After gathering their opinions, he decides not to go with disc brakes. And that's it. He doesn't go into a diatribe against disc brakes, he is just trying to learn from experience of others.

But this thread and others such as it is never stay that simple and devolve into the same routine

Personal preference and the choices we make as individuals, your's, mine John's, everyone aren't inherently wrong.

[Mark McM]

I would not give you my opinion on jumping of a bridge or surfing a tsunami because I have never done either. Are they good ideas? They are not because they could result in death.

Your first and last sentences are in contradiction. First you say would not give your opinion, and then you do. And yes, your last statement is opinion, not merely a statement of fact. It would be factual to state that people have died crossing the street, but it would be opinion to say that crossing the street is not a good idea.

Do you agree though, that someone that has jumped of a bridge and survived has a better opinion on that than someone who has not?

No, the person who was jumped off a bridge does not necessarily have a better opinion than someone who has not. One instance is merely anecdote. A better opinion would come from someone who has never jumped off a bridge, but instead has studied many cases of bridge jumping and analyzed the outcomes. (In the same vain, John Eustices talked with multiple team mechanics.)

[R3awak3n]

Your first and last sentences are in contradiction. First you say would not give your opinion, and then you do. And yes, your last statement is opinion, not merely a statement of fact. It would be factual to state that people have died crossing the street, but it would be opinion to say that crossing the street is not a good idea.



No, the person who was jumped off a bridge does not necessarily have a better opinion than someone who has not. One instance is merely anecdote. A better opinion would come from someone who has never jumped off a bridge, but instead has studied many cases of bridge jumping and analyzed the outcomes. (In the same vain, John Eustices talked with multiple team mechanics.)

I am sure it is going to be a pain in the ass for team mechanics, I actually will agree with John on that. I also was never a team mechanic so I cannot speak on that. My answer was a general statement on disc brakes and not on the og article. Those mechanics that he talked with have serviced disc bikes so they KNOW what its like so they actually have a very educated opinion on discs. Seems like John does too.

I will agree with your logic that you wrote above when it comes to servicing of disc brakes by mechanics. I do not agree with it about using discs are the brake choice though.

Furthermore, discs will be the future. Mechanics can like it or not. There will be some humps along the way which will only be solved by trying the stuff and figuring out its kinks? I wonder what it was like when clipless pedals came out, or carbon frames.

[pbarry]

Ask F1 mechanics if they’d rather work on old cars with NA engines or new hybrid cars? I have no idea where they’d stand but the point is moot now.

Hydraulic drum brakes invented in 1918, (by Lockheed), and adopted over the next 2 1/2 decades. Disk brakes used by European manufacturers starting in the 50’s with the U.S. starting adoption by the late 60’s. What’s all the fuss about disk brakes on bikes? ;)

[davidlee]

Well I don't like disc brakes on my old motorcycles( properly set up drums with modern lining compounds work great, and just look RIGHT ) so you can only imagine what brakes I prefer on push bikes !
:)

[mcteague]

This thread started with quotes from a 60-year-old former pro racer, who doesn't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes. Fair enough. But, as a counterpoint, here are some quotes from a 65-year-old former pro racer:

"It’s the most secure braking system, whether it rains or not. Whether you have carbon or aluminium rims, it doesn’t change anything."

"If I was a pro, I’d have disc brakes. It works."

"Technically it has a lot of advantages. When you descend a col, with disc brakes you can brake 10 metres later than the others so you gain an enormous amount of time. And you start out again quicker than the others out of every corner. If you have an advantage of 5 metres, and you do this 200 times a day, it adds up."

-- Bernard Hinault
Well, he is sort of hawking a new e-bike with disk brakes so.....:rolleyes:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernard-hinault-endorses-new-look-e-765-optimum-e-road-bike/

Tim

[tomato coupe]

Well, he is sort of hawking a new e-bike with disk brakes so.....
So, this is another case of "the opinions of cyclists who dislike disc brakes are honest opinions, but the opinions of cyclists who like disc brakes are tainted."

[colker]

I want to hear opinions of people that have experience on the subject. You mention drugs, why would I want to hear the opinion of someone who has never smoked weed on the effects of weed? And as far as harder drugs go, I never tried heroin and have no interest in it but its a drug that is very addictive and could kill you... disc brakes not gonna do that. give them a try.

You talking about a stiffer bike and discs but you never tried a bike with discs. So I take you also don't think carbon forks are not for a road bike? What about modern shifters as they add useless weight?

I am fine having discussions and I am not going to block anyone and trust me, I ignore a lot of stuff.



And for real. What do you ride? I feel like you never talk about what you ride, or the kind of rides you do.

Me? I ride a late 90s italian steel racing bike which i have shown too many times here. Right now it has clinchers. I ride 4x week at least mostly commuting in traffic, sometimes just riding the distance for exercise. I have ridden woods like trails on mounatin bikes in a distant past.

[colker]

Very few if any road cyclist dislike a disc brake. Mostly is about not needing it. It´s a huge difference.

[Burnette]

Very few if any road cyclist dislike a disc brake. Mostly is about not needing it. It´s a huge difference.

It's an assumption to say very few or many like or dislike either type, the only real data you can go by is sales.

And who determines "need" is the consumer. It's a huge difference than saying how many do or don't like either based on assumption.

[Mark McM]

So, this is another case of "the opinions of cyclists who dislike disc brakes are honest opinions, but the opinions of cyclists who like disc brakes are tainted."

It is more likely a case of "social media influencer not disclosing their financial interest in promoting a product, so that people may take that into account when considering the veracity of their opinions".

Here in the US, the FTC even has rules that social media influencers have to disclose their connection to product providers:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2017/04/ftc-staff-reminds-influencers-brands-clearly-disclose

The FTC’s Endorsement Guides provide that if there is a “material connection” between an endorser and an advertiser – in other words, a connection that might affect the weight or credibility that consumers give the endorsement – that connection should be clearly and conspicuously disclosed, unless it is already clear from the context of the communication. A material connection could be a business or family relationship, monetary payment, or the gift of a free product. Importantly, the Endorsement Guides apply to both marketers and endorsers.



Sadly, too many consumers haven't learned critical thinking skills when it comes to targetted advertising. I don't know if Bernard Hinault has a financial connect to the maker of this e-bike (with disc brakes), but that's a question one should ask before listening to his opinion; and one that should be answered before we consider his statements further.

[davidlee]

Very few if any road cyclist dislike a disc brake. Mostly is about not needing it. It´s a huge difference.

Not always the case mate.

[Burnette]

It is more likely a case of "social media influencer not disclosing their financial interest in promoting a product, so that people may take that into account when considering the veracity of their opinions".

Here in the US, the FTC even has rules that social media influencers have to disclose their connection to product providers:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2017/04/ftc-staff-reminds-influencers-brands-clearly-disclose




Sadly, too many consumers haven't learned critical thinking skills when it comes to targetted advertising. I don't know if Bernard Hinault has a financial connect to the maker of this e-bike (with disc brakes), but that's a question one should ask before listening to his opinion; and one that should be answered before we consider his statements further.

You're making the same argument, that people who chose a different path are unable to discern what is best for themselves while somehow everyone on the other path are somehow immune to this condition, lol.

People in this community have tried and bought what they determined best their needs on both sides. It's a disservice to both to insinuate that one side or the other is more gullible.

[colker]

It's an assumption to say very few or many like or dislike either type, the only real data you can go by is sales.

And who determines "need" is the consumer. It's a huge difference than saying how many do or don't like either based on assumption.
I am only talking about what´s been said here in the forum about it.

[Burnette]

I am only talking about what´s been said here in the forum about it.

It's one side of what has been posted.

[tylercheung]

Rotors? Maybe.

Calipers are effectively the same across the lines

M

Hm, that's probably an easier path to play around. Would it be a huge disadvantage to widen the width of the calipers say 1-2 mms or so, though?

I was thinking of playing around w/ the Hope calipers but tbh, I should just live with the pinging. That's really my only gripe w/ my disc bike.

[rain dogs]

This thread is actually making smart people dumb.

If you're going to validate yourself with other people's opinions, at least make sure those other people are even remotely similar to you in the use case scenario..... that goes for John Eustice as well, who is no longer anything remotely close to a pro cyclist riding in a peloton.

[9tubes]

This thread started with quotes from a 60-year-old former pro racer, who doesn't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes. Fair enough. But, as a counterpoint, here are some quotes from a 65-year-old former pro racer:

"It’s the most secure braking system, whether it rains or not. Whether you have carbon or aluminium rims, it doesn’t change anything."

"If I was a pro, I’d have disc brakes. It works."

"Technically it has a lot of advantages. When you descend a col, with disc brakes you can brake 10 metres later than the others so you gain an enormous amount of time. And you start out again quicker than the others out of every corner. If you have an advantage of 5 metres, and you do this 200 times a day, it adds up."

-- Bernard Hinault

Hinault is a champion because of his strength in time trials and going up mountains. He did not win by late-braking into corners. He needs to talk to a few MotoGP racers.

Both rim brakes and disc brakes can stop hard enough to lift the rear wheel off the ground. (Exception: rain). The limit of braking on a two-wheeled vehicle is flipping it over. The deceleration is identical between discs and rim brakes (we're assuming pro race level brakes). The difference is merely that it takes less hand effort to go to maximum with discs. This may cause some riders to think disc brakes decelerate more. They don't. Besides, bicycle racers like Hinault were not braking that hard (and are not today).

I've heard people argue that disc brakes have a bit better modulation at the limit and thus are faster down mountains. Sure, in many cases they have better modulation. However, unless you are lifting the back tire off the ground going into the corners, that modulation isn't translating into the the late braking advantage that Hinault is talking about.

There are good reasons to like disc brakes. The industry should stay away from mythology. The marketers will only lower their already-low reputations.


.

[saab2000]

This thread started with quotes from a 60-year-old former pro racer, who doesn't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes. Fair enough. But, as a counterpoint, here are some quotes from a 65-year-old former pro racer:

"It’s the most secure braking system, whether it rains or not. Whether you have carbon or aluminium rims, it doesn’t change anything."

"If I was a pro, I’d have disc brakes. It works."

"Technically it has a lot of advantages. When you descend a col, with disc brakes you can brake 10 metres later than the others so you gain an enormous amount of time. And you start out again quicker than the others out of every corner. If you have an advantage of 5 metres, and you do this 200 times a day, it adds up."

-- Bernard Hinault

What makes him so special? What does he know? :rolleyes:

[Burnette]

What makes him so special? What does he know? :rolleyes:

Agree, Bernard, some guy named Eustice and Wile E. Coyote, pick your validator as if it mattered to anyone.

[tomato coupe]

Hinault is a champion because of his strength in time trials and going up mountains. He did not win by late-braking into corners. He needs to talk to a few MotoGP racers.
Sure thing. Bernard Hinault needs to consult some motorcyclists about bicycle technology.

[tomato coupe]

It is more likely a case of "social media influencer not disclosing their financial interest in promoting a product, so that people may take that into account when considering the veracity of their opinions".
I don't see how his involvement in the development an e-bike invalidates or discounts his opinion on brakes used in the pro peloton.

[saab2000]

Bernard Hinault was never one to shy away from technical advances in cycling. He embraced aero very early even though the science of it wasn't as well known. He embraced Look carbon fiber and Look pedals. Of course it was sponsorship but he was in a position to also deny these technologies if he thought they weren't beneficial.

Hinault has won enough on all terrains to be worthy of attention when speaking.

Here's a picture of him riding successfully with discs. :D

https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/hinault-bernard/1985-giro-22-luccca-hinault.jpg

[R3awak3n]

this is the thing.

If a pro says they don't like discs... ah you see, pros think rim brakes are fine and they prefer them.

If a pro says they like discs... they are paid to do so, no way they like discs, I guarantee you they prefer rim brakes.

[Mark McM]

this is the thing.

If a pro says they don't like discs... ah you see, pros think rim brakes are fine and they prefer them.

If a pro says they like discs... they are paid to do so, no way they like discs, I guarantee you they prefer rim brakes.

This greatly oversimplified. The reality is far more nuanced than this.

The fact is, everybody can be prone to biased viewpoints. Everybody. Sometimes the bias is overt (as in the case of paid endorsements), and in other cases it can be sub-concious. Frequently, those with biased viewpoints don't even know it.

That's why it can be helpful to look beyond simple surface readings of an opinion, and look at the person stating the opinion and their background, to understand if there could be built-in bias in the opinion.

In the case of sponsored riders, they are clearly paid endorsers, and they are explicitly paid to cast a good light on the sponsors products. So it is only natural that they publicly profess a very positive opinion of the product (whether that's what they truly believe or not). But even here, the bias might be sub-conscious. If someone is being paid by a company, they are likely to sub-conciously develop a better viewpoint of that companies products, then of the products from companies that are not paying them.

There is a famous quote about this effect:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

- Upton Sinclair

[colker]

It goes down to this: how much your riding is affected by your brakes performance? Modern road calipers on aluminium rims gives very good braking but if you descend big mountains on twisty roads then you want all the brakes you can find. If you brake eventually and don´t descend at high speed for mileas and miles calipers may be enough.

[R3awak3n]

This greatly oversimplified. The reality is far more nuanced than this.

The fact is, everybody can be prone to biased viewpoints. Everybody. Sometimes the bias is overt (as in the case of paid endorsements), and in other cases it can be sub-concious. Frequently, those with biased viewpoints don't even know it.

That's why it can be helpful to look beyond simple surface readings of an opinion, and look at the person stating the opinion and their background, to understand if there could be built-in bias in the opinion.

In the case of sponsored riders, they are clearly paid endorsers, and they are explicitly paid to cast a good light on the sponsors products. So it is only natural that they publicly profess a very positive opinion of the product (whether that's what they truly believe or not). But even here, the bias might be sub-conscious. If someone is being paid by a company, they are likely to sub-conciously develop a better viewpoint of that companies products, then of the products from companies that are not paying them.

There is a famous quote about this effect:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

- Upton Sinclair

Do you have to write a quote everytime to reply to my posts. You are obviously a smart guy and well spoken but give me a little break here.

It is true that people that are paid and sponsored are contractually obliged to use the product and probably works in their favor to “like” the product. However, it would be a big assumption that everyone will do that. Is it not possible that a pro actually likes discs? Seriously, there are a lot of pros, all have different opinions. What about younger riders? It really seems like on paceline, the older you are the more adversity you have to discs or any new thing.

[pbarry]

I wonder if here might be shorting disc brake stocks? ;) :banana:

[Mark McM]

Hm, that's probably an easier path to play around. Would it be a huge disadvantage to widen the width of the calipers say 1-2 mms or so, though?

Unfortunately, the rotor clearance can't be increased. If you were to increase the space between the rotors and pads by 1-2 millimeters, then you'd have to squeeze the lever about 2-3 times further to actuate the brake - and most of us don't finger that long.

Disc brake rotors are only about 1/4 the size of rims. Therefore, for the same braking torque, the caliper clamping/friction force has to be much higher than for rim brakes. To achieve this, the leverage ratio of disc brake calipers has to be much higher. But caliper travel is inverse of leverage ratio - if you quadruple the leverage ratio, the pads will only move a quarter as far. In order to ensure that the lever travel is sufficient to move the pads far enough to squeeze the rotor, there is only about 1mm of clearance between rotor and pads - any more than this, and you might not be able to squeeze the lever far enough.

One of characteristics of disc brakes is that you need to position the rotor with much more position than you need to center a rim for rim brakes. That's the main reason that thru axles have replaced QR axles for disc brake wheels - thru axles will position the wheel/rotor with greater precision that QRs can.

[colker]

Do you have to write a quote everytime to reply to my posts. You are obviously a smart guy and well spoken but give me a little break here.

It is true that people that are paid and sponsored are contractually obliged to use the product and probably works in their favor to “like” the product. However, it would be a big assumption that everyone will do that. Is it not possible that a pro actually likes discs? Seriously, there are a lot of pros, all have different opinions. What about younger riders? It really seems like on paceline, the older you are the more adversity you have to discs or any new thing.
C´mon. I am sure you can do better than calling me too old to get it. We are not talking rock bands. Btw... who needs to prove this or that bike is better for everybody? we are talkin sh/t. that´s all.

[Mark McM]

Do you have to write a quote everytime to reply to my posts.

Others have expressed these ideas before, and much better than I.

It is true that people that are paid and sponsored are contractually obliged to use the product and probably works in their favor to “like” the product. However, it would be a big assumption that everyone will do that. Is it not possible that a pro actually likes discs? Seriously, there are a lot of pros, all have different opinions. What about younger riders? It really seems like on paceline, the older you are the more adversity you have to discs or any new thing.

Yes, it would be an assumption that everyone may "embellish" their opinions, or even be straight out be dishonest. But some will. I'm not saying that you can't ever believe what pros say; but the problem is, you can't be sure that you can believe it, either. So currently sponsored pros might not be the best source for the straight scoop on the quality of their sponsors products, because you just can't know how much bias is at play.

Sure, younger riders may be more likely to adopt disc brakes. But then too, they may not have the same amount of practical experience as older rider. Plus, it is pretty well known that younger people are more impressionable, and advertisers take advantage of that.

Sure, older riders may be more averse to disc brakes. But they are more prone to be set in their ways, and not want to change (regardless of the facts). In fact, its been suggested that in general, people don't change the ideas they've grown attached to when new ideas come along - the new ideas only replace the old ideas when the people with the old ideas die off.

In any case, the point is that everybody has a bias. Before you accept their opinions as correct, you have to also consider their potential biases. And in the case of paid endorsers, there is a very clear bias to consider.

[Tony]

Others have expressed these ideas before, and much better than I.



Yes, it would be an assumption that everyone may "embellish" their opinions, or even be straight out be dishonest. But some will. I'm not saying that you can't ever believe what pros say; but the problem is, you can't be sure that you can believe it, either. So currently sponsored pros might not be the best source for the straight scoop on the quality of their sponsors products, because you just can't know how much bias is at play.

Sure, younger riders may be more likely to adopt disc brakes. But then too, they may not have the same amount of practical experience as older rider. Plus, it is pretty well known that younger people are more impressionable, and advertisers take advantage of that.

Sure, older riders may be more averse to disc brakes. But they are more prone to be set in their ways, and not want to change (regardless of the facts). In fact, its been suggested that in general, people don't change the ideas they've grown attached to when new ideas come along - the new ideas only replace the old ideas when the people with the old ideas die off.

In any case, the point is that everybody has a bias. Before you accept their opinions as correct, you have to also consider their potential biases. And in the case of paid endorsers, there is a very clear bias to consider.

These folks are a kinetic advertising dream for the company.
This is done in many sports. I know several in the kayaking community that are sponsored, its part of their sponsorship to speak favorably of the product they paddle.

[R3awak3n]

Others have expressed these ideas before, and much better than I.



Yes, it would be an assumption that everyone may "embellish" their opinions, or even be straight out be dishonest. But some will. I'm not saying that you can't ever believe what pros say; but the problem is, you can't be sure that you can believe it, either. So currently sponsored pros might not be the best source for the straight scoop on the quality of their sponsors products, because you just can't know how much bias is at play.

Sure, younger riders may be more likely to adopt disc brakes. But then too, they may not have the same amount of practical experience as older rider. Plus, it is pretty well known that younger people are more impressionable, and advertisers take advantage of that.

Sure, older riders may be more averse to disc brakes. But they are more prone to be set in their ways, and not want to change (regardless of the facts). In fact, its been suggested that in general, people don't change the ideas they've grown attached to when new ideas come along - the new ideas only replace the old ideas when the people with the old ideas die off.

In any case, the point is that everybody has a bias. Before you accept their opinions as correct, you have to also consider their potential biases. And in the case of paid endorsers, there is a very clear bias to consider.

Thats fair Mark and I agree with a lot that you have said.

[Gummee]

its part of their sponsorship to speak favorably of the product they paddle.
I get what you did there. Clever.

Discs are good.
Rim brakes are good.

Run whatcha want but don't disparage someone who thinks differently.

M

[Alaska Mike]

Discs are good.
Rim brakes are good.

Run whatcha want but don't disparage someone who thinks differently.


That's pretty much it.

I do a lot of slow climbing and fast descents. I ride in the rain. I fully recognize where disc brakes shine. That said, having discs would not make my rides any more enjoyable. They're brakes. As long as they work reasonably well, I'm happy, and being happy is why I'm out there.

Forget global pandemics- in my honest opinion there's nothing scarier than a low-level crit with a strong rider on a disc brake bike that doesn't know how to corner. Surge-brake. Surge, brake. Been there, scared the hell out of me.

[tomato coupe]

Forget global pandemics- in my honest opinion there's nothing scarier than a low-level crit with a strong rider on a disc brake bike that doesn't know how to corner. Surge-brake. Surge, brake. Been there, scared the hell out of me.
The problem is the rider, not the brakes.

[Alaska Mike]

The problem is the rider, not the brakes.

I would agree. However, they do seem to increase the potential for carnage in those situations. The speed changes are more abrupt- which is why I never complained about Cat 5s with rim brake carbon rims. They couldn’t slow so quickly. Plus, you got a clear squeal as an alarm.

[Burnette]

Argument is a bit stale so let's mix it up a little.

If we're working off the pretense that everything after metal frames and aluminum rims is hype (lol) then surely Campy 12 speed was hype, surely 11 speeds were sufficient? Was there a real need?

And Assos and Rapha must surely be in the business of selling liquid refreshment, selling different flavors of Kiol Aid?

And shoes? Oh, cyclist and shoes, some threads read a like a Sex In The City episode.

And custom frames? The vast majority of people can be easily supplied with a proper fitting bike right off the rack and in some cases very cheaply. Needs for few, wants for many? And is there plenty of hype in that arena?

Needs and wants, what works and what one thinks works better for them. Oh, and hype. There's the mix.

Who gets to decide what is a true need, a want and what is hype? Some current pro cyclist who are/were paid and/or bring their own bias to the decision? Some forumites who like a thing or don't like a thing?

Or is it individual standing at the counter or on the internet with money or card in hand?

[oldpotatoe]

these folks are a kinetic advertising dream for the company.
this is done in many sports. i know several in the kayaking community that are sponsored, its part of their sponsorship to speak favorably of the product they paddle.

yup

[pfr]

Surely it's already been mentioned, but I'll add ...

Disc brakes shine in wet weather and when descending, particularly long, winding descents like he have here in Malibu and in the San Gabriel Mtns.

For me, and I have bikes with disc brakes and rim brakes, I always take my disc brake road bike when I'm in the mountains.

[Spoker]

I hope I never face the ride after which I say : "I'm so glad I took my disk brake bike today, or I would have been...".

[pfr]

I hope I never face the ride after which I say : "I'm so glad I took my disk brake bike today, or I would have been...".

If the ellipses are followed by 'toast', then I've definitely said that. I've had experiences with disc brakes where I could not have stopped as suddenly if I was using rim brakes.

If the ellipses is followed by 'less confident in my ability to modulate or stop quickly' then I have this feeling anytime it's wet and most times when I'm in the mountains (and it's dry).

Of course, everyone has their own take on disc vs rim brakes.

I sold my Campy Bora Ultra wheels because they were terrible when wet and didn't stop that well when it was dry. I replaced them with Campy Shamal Mille wheels, which, still rim brakes, are so much better.

I'd choose by Zipp disc wheels any day when conditions are bad or I'm climbing. FWIW, I did ~750K ft of climbing in '19, giving me time to try different things.

I also have rim brakes on my TT bike and really like the rim brakes on the HED Jet Blacks.

[pfr]

To add ...

There are excellent rim brakes, like Shimano BR 105/Ultegra/DuraAce, and bad rim brakes IMHO, like the Tektro rim brakes that came on my son's CAAD12.

There are also good/bad rim brake wheels. It used to be that many rim brake/carbon wheel combos were suspect (and I wouldn't go back there), but the pros and some of my friends do it, so things must be okay there with the latest if you're riding the good stuff. I'd be fearful of delamination with poor quality carbon layups.

My hunch is that many (most?) pros would choose disc brakes on mountain stages given a choice (and if everyone used them ... there are potential issues if braking varies in a group). I can't remember what the pros were using for Paris-Nice this year.

So far, I've tried SRAM and Shimano hydro disc brakes. Both are excellent, but I prefer Shimano. Mechanical disc brakes are not as capable.

Gravel bikes are disc, although there may be exceptions.

[rustychisel]

Argument is a bit stale so let's mix it up a little.

If we're working off the pretense that everything after metal frames and aluminum rims is hype (lol) then surely Campy 12 speed was hype, surely 11 speeds were sufficient? Was there a real need?

And Assos and Rapha must surely be in the business of selling liquid refreshment, selling different flavors of Kiol Aid?

And shoes? Oh, cyclist and shoes, some threads read a like a Sex In The City episode.

And custom frames? The vast majority of people can be easily supplied with a proper fitting bike right off the rack and in some cases very cheaply. Needs for few, wants for many? And is there plenty of hype in that arena?

Needs and wants, what works and what one thinks works better for them. Oh, and hype. There's the mix.

Who gets to decide what is a true need, a want and what is hype? Some current pro cyclist who are/were paid and/or bring their own bias to the decision? Some forumites who like a thing or don't like a thing?

Or is it individual standing at the counter or on the internet with money or card in hand?


You're a bad influence/reality check.
Pick one/or the other.

In truth, I tried that. 40th birthday, stood in the biggest bike retailer in the city with a credit card literally oozing $$$$$ and trying to get attention from someone so I could ask about Look/Colnago/whatevercomesthird and walked out of the shop after 20 minutes. Never ever been back. They need to work much harder to convince me what they have to sell is what I need.

Edit: and the original point of this thread? I don't think Eustice strengthens his argument by never having ridden a bike with disk brakes. If I rode offroad or trail I want one. But I don't.
For road bikes they're largely irrelevant, except in those extreme situations where they aren't. I can think of only one descent around here where such is the case. I love my rim brake bikes and they stop fast enough so that if I were a poorer rider I'd flip over the bars.

[rain dogs]

Me? I ride a late 90s italian steel racing bike which i have shown too many times here.


Very few if any road cyclist dislike a disc brake. Mostly is about not needing it. It´s a huge difference.

These posts to me perfectly sum up the folly of these conversations. This is what so many of us do here. We attempt to equate our reality with a different reality that the product in debate is targeted at. This is what Eustice is doing as well.... he's not a pro, but he's talking to pro mechanics about his daily rider...


Ask Tom Boonen about tubes and he'll say you're crazy to use tubes! (yeah... at Roubaix!) - Doesn't mean we should all value FMB tubulars in the same way he did.
Ask a pro Track rider about gears, and they'll say "there's no need for derailleurs"
Ask an Eroica rider about shifters and they'll say "there's no need for STI's or Ergo levers."
Ask a commuter about pedals and they'll say "there is no need for clipless"

But that's a pretty poor way to make component decisions if you're not Tom Boonen, a track rider, going to Eroica or a commuter. But all of those components can provide distinct advantages to most of our riding even if they aren't "needed". As do discs.

Ask a professional mechanic about disc brakes, and you're going to get the perspective of a pro mechanic whose viewpoint deals with pro racing.... which none of us are, pro racers or pro mechanics.

Many of the former pros I see, (as in recently retired) are using disc brakes and I would expect fully them to use disc brakes! Tell them it's not needed, they are free to choose any bike and any components they want and aren't just mindless slaves to marketing. It's because they aren't racing road, and are doing more everyday, varied riding.

[colker]

These posts to me perfectly sum up the folly of these conversations. This is what so many of us do here. We attempt to equate our reality with a different reality that the product in debate is targeted at. This is what Eustice is doing as well.... he's not a pro, but he's talking to pro mechanics about his daily rider...


Ask Tom Boonen about tubes and he'll say you're crazy to use tubes! (yeah... at Roubaix!) - Doesn't mean we should all value FMB tubulars in the same way he did.
Ask a pro Track rider about gears, and they'll say "there's no need for derailleurs"
Ask an Eroica rider about shifters and they'll say "there's no need for STI's or Ergo levers."
Ask a commuter about pedals and they'll say "there is no need for clipless"

But that's a pretty poor way to make component decisions if you're not Tom Boonen, a track rider, going to Eroica or a commuter. But all of those components can provide distinct advantages to most of our riding even if they aren't "needed". As do discs.

Ask a professional mechanic about disc brakes, and you're going to get the perspective of a pro mechanic whose viewpoint deals with pro racing.... which none of us are, pro racers or pro mechanics.

Many of the former pros I see, (as in recently retired) are using disc brakes and I would expect fully them to use disc brakes! Tell them it's not needed, they are free to choose any bike and any components they want and aren't just mindless slaves to marketing. It's because they aren't racing road, and are doing more everyday, varied riding.

It became a crusade. You cannot chose between this and that product for your application. you chose sides. That´s stupid. It´s not my war not yours.. It´s a manufacturer problem. If he does not offer a rim brake i buy from someone else so he wants me to drop the product.
I saw it before in forums w/ 26 x 29in debate. Rim x disc brakes. Some trails are better on smaller wheels while others on big ones.. but suddenly there were big wheel evangelists whose reason to live it seemed was to fight the wrong wheel. Yes... it was that stupid.
NOw this guy Eustice.. he choses rim brakes. Some even come up offending him personally. Others demand he at least try disc brakes. Why? It´s not broccoli that my mom insists i should try when i am six. Eustice is used to mechanics dealing w/ his bike maintenance so he asks theses guys what is the deal. They tell him it svcks. Eustice has a conservative approach and goes w/ what he is used to. That´s a manufacturer problem but taken as personal offence on forums. Or even worse.. it´s like he refused a vaccine or stalled the progress of mankind.
Disc brakes requires stiffening steel forks. You can´t upgrade a bike or wheel you like to discs. It is visually unpleasant to some when a bicycle is also about looking good. Most of all.. road cycling is conservative. It´s not mountain biking. It´s a sport where riders shave legs for no rational reason other than tradition... and you expect everyone to embrace disc brakes next week? Lol.

[oldpotatoe]

My hunch is that many (most?) pros would choose disc brakes on mountain stages given a choice

As has been mentioned, you don't think Froomie has a YUGE input on bike equipment? Yet, IENOS remans rim brake bikes thruout.
AND many(most?) pros, when give the choice, even on mountain stages, choose the rim brake bike, still....A lot don't have a choice, and ride the disc brake bike.

[saab2000]

I'd guess that a pro's choice has more to do with wheel change speed and whatnot than anything else.

This is a clear case of what's good for pro racing isn't necessarily what's good or desirable for consumers.

If a rider in the TdF needs a wheel change on a mountain stage it's a big deal and changing a disc brake wheel is slower than changing a rim brake wheel.

I can't comment on anything else.

Given that Team Sky/Ineos have won pretty much all the Tours for the past number of years and they are known to be aware of everything that may or may not play a role I'd say that their choice to stick with rim brakes is quite conscious. I'd also guess braking performance isn't part of their calculation as it's "good enough".

[rain dogs]

This post seals the deal.. and not only for me. The fanatics can shout as long as they want. I don´t care about disc brakes. Unless i am forced otherwise i chose rim brakes.

That's your post from the first page. I can't even understand what you're banging on about mate. You've been the most vocal person in this thread (with more than double the 2nd most active in the thread) about why discs are unnecessary and you keep replying to me specifically when I comment on this thread stating the same - that discs aren't needed and are just a big marketers' game.

I couldn't care what people use. The argument I'm making is we'd benefit from not making our decisions based on pros (and pro mechanics) who are riding bikes nothing remotely like we are - whether that is using discs or not using discs.

[Elefantino]

The Campy vs. Shimano debate is more fun.

[colker]

That's your post from the first page. I can't even understand what you're banging on about mate.

Ok. I will ignore your posts and you ignore mine. How about that? Win win.

[tv_vt]

I was wondering how this thread got to XX pages long. Then a quick browse-through showed certain Forum members posting multiple times. Sorry, but when I start seeing those names multiple times, I know the thread has gone off the deep end. Seen it too many times.

Mods, I'm really wondering when you're going to shut this one down.

[AngryScientist]

Mods, I'm really wondering when you're going to shut this one down.

right now.

14 pages of this is probably enough.

my my; i think cabin fever is getting to some of you guys.

let's keep this Paceline space reasonably calm, cool headed and respectful please.

i know we can!