Need shimano compatibility assistance

[Dave B]

I have little knowledge on shimano road stuff and plenty on thbeir mtb stuff.

I have a pretty decent Dura Ace 7800 full kit. The shifters bother me in that they are not comfortable in my hands. I have done some googling, but not sure I am getting the info I need.

Are there any shimano shifters that do not have the shape (meaning newer) of the 7800 style that are still compatible with the 7800 bits?

it is 10 speed of course, but will anything newer, with less of a bull horn shape work as well?

thanks

[robt57]

All 10 speeds STi will index. Beware for brake caliper cable pull requirements mixing odd number for the second number with even number for second number models.

Also, the FD-7900 works wonky without an ST-7900 shifter and visa versa generally.

I am not aware of much different STi shapes in 10 speed. You could use ST-7700 shifters, loosing a speed, will index with 7800 DRs, and have a much smaller and different shape. Being smaller they are a good weight weenie choice.

[Dave B]

I don't worry about weight on a bike at all. I just don't like the shape/feel of the 7800 shifters and was hoping to just switch those out.

[robt57]

I don't worry about weight on a bike at all. I just don't like the shape/feel of the 7800 shifters and was hoping to just switch those out.

So I think, hope to be corrected in the thread. 10Speed STi all have 'that' shape.

If you do go to the ST-7700 solution [giving up a speed], you will need a longer stem, the STi size is about 1CM shorter. When I upgraded from 7700 to 7800 I leaned this, and also that my big hands fit the 7800 a lot better than the small 7700 I used for 12 years. ;)

Another choice is 11s Campy Ergos and a J-tek #4 [i think] with your existing 7800. Keeping 10 speed everything else. This also give you the option of finding a RD-6700-GS and using a 32t cassette.

Or an RD-7803-GS, good luck finding one of those though.

EDIT: I looked on J-tec and my memory that the #4 for this task was on target.

http://www.jtekengineering.com/shiftmate/shiftmate-4/

[mktng]

Just get tiagra 4700 stuff.

[Ed-B]

Just get tiagra 4700 stuff.

4700 series has the newer pull ratio - not compatible with the older 10 speed stuff.

[robt57]

4700 series has the newer pull ratio - not compatible with the older 10 speed stuff.

So adding a RD-4700 should fix the back, but how bout the FD-7800 and ST-4700 I wonder?

[hokoman]

Assume you can find 5700 and 6700 series shifters (hidden cable like the 7900, but cheaper) would work with all 7800 parts.

[robt57]

Assume you can find 5700 and 6700 series shifters (hidden cable like the 7900, but cheaper) would work with all 7800 parts.

Brake cable pull issue. How much of an issue one considers it is subjective.

Not to mention; when I was in an LBS wrenching, that era [error some would argue] first gen under tape shifter cable routing left a lot to be desired in terms of keeping shifting like the 7800 butter if it ever got close in the first place.

Make what you will of it, 11s over-ran those and ended 10s quick, and IMO for good reason. So I don't wish 1st get under cable routing on anyone SH wise.

We had more of those brought back in after re-cabling jobs than anything else...

Di2 is the only fix for 6700 shifter IMO.

But the RD-6700-GS is an excellent part, IMO of course.

But ST-6700 rant over [for now]

YMMV ST-#700 wise, but I do doubt it...

[Dave B]

Jesus never mind

[zzy]

Robt is bang on. Mixing 10sp generation bits is a pain, and second gen 10sp shifters are best avoided. Sell the DA and get some 5800 11sp bits. Sounds like you will prefer the ergos.

[zzy]

So adding a RD-4700 should fix the back, but how bout the FD-7800 and ST-4700 I wonder?

would need new derailleurs and brakes, as both are a different pull and ratio.

[bigbill]

I've set up 7900 levers a few times on otherwise 7800 drivetrains and it worked just fine.

[robt57]

I've set up 7900 levers a few times on otherwise 7800 drivetrains and it worked just fine.

Inc front shifting, my experience was otherwise with ST-7800 w/FD-7900.

But perhaps my cable exit from the BB was at the worst angle, and your was at the worst comparatively.

My next least fav shimano (*&#*%#& after gen one ST-5700/6700 [7900 worked well the one time I installed] was 1st gen 11s speed FDs.

Fun Wrigley data: The most perfect shifting triple I ever did was a 6703 complete groupo, subst ST-6600 for the 1st Gen cable under ST-6700. That shifted near as well as a buttery 7800 group with the 39/53. I never got a compact 7850 to shift as well as either.

I keep saying 1st gen under tape, I should really be saying last gen 10s shifter cables under tape.

[GOTHBROOKS]

i had a 7800 rear der on my old crux with the first gen 105 “under the tape” shifters and it worked flawlessly.

[robt57]

i had a 7800 rear der on my old crux with the first gen 105 “under the tape” shifters and it worked flawlessly.

For how long I guess I would rhetorically pose the question. [note no question mark] ;)

Can you even get the cables/housing that were spec-ed for that gen anymore, without paying 1/2 that price of STis which nice stainless cables in normal housings work flawlessly on? ;)

Actually, I think they still use those for the 11s stuff, what I have installed anyway..

[robt57]

"Beware for brake caliper cable pull requirements mixing odd number for the second number with even number for second number models." What does that mean?

When the second series number is odd #, [odd is the right word]. 5800 11s is so much better than any second number =odd series, 7900 the least worst. I wouldn't touch 5700/6700/7900 shifters. 5600/6600, OK

7700 is the exception to the second series #=odd/avoid. But we hardly tale 10 speed anymore, no less 9 speed.

But it is all the route they chose which is poor coming outta the shifters.

So on top of the shift cable route, they changed the brake cable pull each series going forward. So mixing series shifters and calipers has issues as well.

Easy just to skip over without any doubt IMO. Folks can do what they want and argue what they have may work all they want. I just state what I have experienced. Don't care if my advise is ignored.

Until it gets ignored and then I get asked to fix it after the fact. ;)

[GOTHBROOKS]

For how long I guess I would rhetorically pose the question. [note no question mark] ;)

Can you even get the cables/housing that were spec-ed for that gen anymore, without paying 1/2 that price of STis which nice stainless cables in normal housings work flawlessly on? ;)

Actually, I think they still use those for the 11s stuff, what I have installed anyway..

idk i just used regular old bulk jagwire housing and cables. those 105 shifters were used and this is the first ive ever heard of them requiring proprietary cables and housing.
i rode that bike setup with the 105 shifters and dura ace rear der for over 2 years before i upgraded it to full 6700 and then sold it.

[dddd]

Different frame's cable routing puts different demands on cabling performance, having to do with the bend radius which could cause ostensibly straight sections of the inner wire to bow off-tangent and induce elasticity.
Then it is the mathematical combination of friction multiplied by elasticity that defines the degree of motion error between the lever and the derailer.

For problem frames, I always reach for the coated 1.1mm cable wires, sold under various "generic" brandings. This has made the difference that got bikes out the door shifting acceptably for a decent service interval.

Chain choice makes all the difference on Shimano 10s setups. Always use Shimano 10s chain for best results is my advice on any Shimano 10s bike.

The 11-28t 10s cassette was the largest made to be used with the 7800 gruppo, and was the size that required the B-tension screw to be most tightened down. This tended to pull the guide pulley further from the "concave" area of the casset about four cogs in from the dropout.
The acid test for these 10s bikes was the shifting performance on this part of the cassette with the chain on the big chainring. If it was crisp in both directions then things were looking good.

One "cheat" fix that I often applied to these 10s bikes using the 11-28t cassette was to reverse the top and bottom pulleys, thus eliminating the "float" freeplay at the top pulley. This, the 1.1mm cable and the switch to Shimano 10s chain were the best quick fixes during those years.

Lastly, and pertaining to the newer style of levers having hidden gear cables, one should always as a last/final adjustment make sure that the lo-limit screw on the rear derailer does not impede free movement to the largest-cog position. Any, literally any added resistance here will lead to frequent cable fraying/breakage and reduced service intervals for adjustment. This adjustment will need to be revisited any time that a cassette or wheel change results in any cable adjustment changes, though routine re-tensioning of the cable due to ordinary slackening should not require that the limit screw be readjusted.

Shimano 10s is actually pretty good in my experience once I accumulated the above knowledge base the more-or-less hard way, as long as the cabling is not overly neglected. I recommend premium pre-lubricated cable housing and/or using SRAM or Shimano silicon-teflon (thus optimal/compatible) cable grease exclusively on the inner wire (Shimano's pre-lubed SP41 housing uses a silicone-teflon formulation).

[robt57]

I'll pile on a little to dddd in that bends in the runs can make matter untenable for a less that well engineered group like these last gen 10s.

I'd add that DR hanger length has helped more than anything else with 28t and even 30t use with 7800 many times for me.

I did the B screw reversal once, and was not happy with that particular attempt.

I also will say that dddd has wrenched more bikes in a much wider timeline of engineering that myself in magnitudes.

[oldpotatoe]

I have little knowledge on shimano road stuff and plenty on thbeir mtb stuff.

I have a pretty decent Dura Ace 7800 full kit. The shifters bother me in that they are not comfortable in my hands. I have done some googling, but not sure I am getting the info I need.

Are there any shimano shifters that do not have the shape (meaning newer) of the 7800 style that are still compatible with the 7800 bits?

it is 10 speed of course, but will anything newer, with less of a bull horn shape work as well?

thanks

Yikes..How about y'all try to answer the gents question??:eek: I'm sure info about cabling, inner wire diameter, inside/outside, etc, etc is groovy but...

7800 and the like(ultegra and 105), had the cable housing outside the lever(as you know), 7900 era, the cables went inside, under the housing and the 'shift guts' went from kinda outside the lever, at the top of the brake lever, to inside the shift lever more so the shape changed a little bit but retained the 'bulbous' end style. 11s pretty much the same.

10s Campag ERGO are much less 'bulbous'...11s Campag ERGO shaped a little less bulbous but 'gumby' shaped..VERY comfy in MY hands, YMMV and all that.

Maybe go to a bike shop and ride some bikes altho 'most' are in the disc brake world these days and that shape is different again.

[Dave B]

it's fine, I am not going to mess around with this crap. I am hoping to have something go my way then I will be ditching shimano stuff for Campy. I also have some sram 10 speed stuff lying around I can use. Both have nicer feelings in my hands.