One view of bike prices.

[RFC]

https://gearpatrol.com/2020/02/26/bicycle-expense-explained/?utm_source=Gear+Patrol%27s+Email+Newsletter+List&utm_campaign=69531ddbd9-DAILY_DISPATCH_2_8_2019&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e43a1bb65e-69531ddbd9-66504155&mc_cid=69531ddbd9&mc_eid=816816e430

[Black Dog]

https://gearpatrol.com/2020/02/26/bicycle-expense-explained/?utm_source=Gear+Patrol%27s+Email+Newsletter+List&utm_campaign=69531ddbd9-DAILY_DISPATCH_2_8_2019&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e43a1bb65e-69531ddbd9-66504155&mc_cid=69531ddbd9&mc_eid=816816e430

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Lanternrouge]

I didn't read anything there that was at all shocking. A high-end "exotic" bike is more attainable than a similar car and I can get for more enjoyment out of it. An exotic car wouldn't really get me anywhere faster (since I'm a safe driver) than my POS even though the exotic car would be more fun. Even if I add up what I've put into every single bike I have, it would still be less than basically any car I'd truly consider "fast." Granted, my conception of "fast" is pretty warped considering where I ride.

[buddybikes]

Perhaps mountain bike pivots change faster than babies diapers, but road bikes?

[joosttx]

I didn't read anything there that was at all shocking. A high-end "exotic" bike is more attainable than a similar car and I can get for more enjoyment out of it. An exotic car wouldn't really get me anywhere faster (since I'm a safe driver) than my POS even though the exotic car would be more fun. Even if I add up what I've put into every single bike I have, it would still be less than basically any car I'd truly consider "fast." Granted, my conception of "fast" is pretty warped considering where I ride.

I had the "pleasure" of riding in and driving a Porsche GTRS3 that was gaited. It was terrifying.

[Lanternrouge]

I had the "pleasure" of riding in and driving a Porsche GTRS3 that was gaited. It was terrifying.

We can at least take comfort in the fact that we can buy bikes at MSRP, whereas a GT3RS (and I think any GT3 variant) commands a premium over sticker.

[zmudshark]

Some people would call tossing out an article without comment is trolling.

Is there an opinion behind the post, or just a hook in the water?

[oldpotatoe]

Some people would call tossing out an article without comment is trolling.

Is there an opinion behind the post, or just a hook in the water?

Not only that, some of the articles 'claims' just aren't true, IMHO.
Cocalis says that it’s not fair to compare cars and bicycles — or even motorcycles and bicycles — because the bike world innovates on a pace that’s a lot closer to that of iPhones than that of motorized transportation.

Better define 'innovates'..a LOT of the changes are not necessarily changes for the better but a response to a flat market..
Also, car parts aren’t built to anything close to the surgical perfection of many bike components.

That's laughable..Take a look at ANY auto or motorcycle transmission..and compare that with any 'bike' rear hub...or the suspension on a motorcycle that will safely carry somebody at many MPH, even on dirt..with a MTB or road bike traveling at 15-30 MPH..
When Cocalis shows someone one of Pivot’s $10,000 mountain bikes, he’ll hear some people scream, “I could buy a motorcycle for that!” Which, he agrees, is true. “But does any motorcycle with a carbon frame, carbon wheels and suspension components on par with what comes on a high-end mountain bike even exist? Yes, it does. It’s called the Ducati Superleggera V4. It matches up quite well — and it costs about $100,000.”

Talk about apples and kumquats..the point was a $10,000 motorcycle vs a $10,000 bicycle and the 'tech' that goes into each. MANY $10,000 motorcycles(which isn't that expensive)have 'tech' on par with a $10,000 bicycle.
This is a roundabout explanation, too, for a problem that’s relatively unique to bike building, says Cocalis, which is the constant need for customization on a small scale. Bikes, especially higher-end ones made of carbon fiber, just aren’t built in very high volumes, and yet require a ton of labor. “It takes about 1,500 people to make about 15,000 frames per year for high-end brands using the highest-end processes,” Cocalis explains.

Ah, not the 'precision' or the 'tech', but economy of scale..THAT makes sense.
“In many ways,” he continues, “every high-end bicycle is like an exotic high-end car.” Those 15,000 frames stack up to the rough volume of carbon fiber-bodied exotic sports cars built worldwide in a given year. And, he says, “just like the body panels and frames on these exotic cars, every single carbon mountain bike frame is made by hand in limited quantities with high tooling and engineering costs.”

Nope..again, using carbon fiber doesn't make it expensive, bike makers use it because as a material, it's cheaper than steel, titanium or even aluminum.

There are a LOT of cars that use a LOT of carbon fiber. PLUS there are MANY $2500 bikes with carbon fiber frames.
One bike maker who can’t go on the record out of fear of the ramifications, such as getting shut out of his vendor network, says that some of the costs are the fault of consumers. We’ll call this guy Fred.

“These companies aren’t dumb,” Fred says. “They know that a bike frame that’s 100 grams lighter can sell for more, even if it’s the same frame without paint. They call it ‘raw,’ and the consumer will actually spend more money on a frame that costs less to produce.”

ahh...reality, what a concept.

It really sounds like the people in this article are trying to justify why their bike costs so much..YES, there are factors involved like labor, and economy of scale but to compare a relatively inexpensive bike($10k) to a multi-multi thousand exotic auto..it doesn't wash..IMHO...

BUT, I'll bet the 'tech' in this compares well with the 'tech' in any $10,000 bicycle, even Pivot.

https://www.ducati.com/us/en/bikes/monster/monster-797

[AngryScientist]

bikes and cars are both as expensive as you want them to be, or as cheap.

new bikes are fun and we all have our reasons for buying them, but we've all been on a group ride where someone riding a 500 dollar bike is killing it, and guys on 12k dollar bikes get dropped on the first big climb.

no big deal. i think the bottom line is that folks with disposable income will find ways to spend it. boats, cars, motorcycles, RV's, gambling, cocaine, high end escorts, stamp collections - what have you.

industries respond to that and cater to it.

if 10k dollar bikes are selling well, you can bet there will be 11k dollar bikes for sale next year and 12k the year after that until we find the breaking point.

[bironi]

Well put Angry.

[Clancy]

Some people would call tossing out an article without comment is trolling.

Is there an opinion behind the post, or just a hook in the water?

I’m confused. If the OP had stated “I found this article interesting, thought others would enjoy” would that be trolling?

I’m still hazy on the definition of trolling but as I understand it, it’s when someone is trying to maliciously stir stuff up by throwing out negative or misleading info/comments. I may be wrong. As I said, hazy.

But simply posting a link to an article, don’t see how that’s trolling. Trolling I thought had a negative context.

But how is saying “some people would call” different? Are you saying it? Why don’t you just say “I think this is trolling”

Seems a stretch to read trolling into a simple post of a cycling related article. Perhaps I don’t understand trolling

[unterhausen]

I feel like people are responding more to the inflation in bike prices. Full suspension mountain bikes seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last couple of years. I just can't see spending what a FS mtb with low-end components costs now.

[RKW]

We can at least take comfort in the fact that we can buy bikes at MSRP, whereas a GT3RS (and I think any GT3 variant) commands a premium over sticker.

100% untrue.

Secondary market, yes. Buying new, as the original allocation holder, no.

[Mark McM]

I'll second everything oldpotatoe said. The article does have a few good points, but most of it read more like satire than reality.

[Red Tornado]

I feel like people are responding more to the inflation in bike prices. Full suspension mountain bikes seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last couple of years. I just can't see spending what a FS mtb with low-end components costs now.

Yes to this.

Haven't done the math, so take it for what it is - an estimation, but it "seems" like the cost for the level of bikes (road and MTB) I raced on in the late 90's/early 2000's has increased noticeably more than my income over the past 20'ish years. Some of that, you could say, is controlled by me and I would agree. Still, the number of $2500+ bikes in the shops I frequent, that supposedly aren't considered high-end.... Wow.

Just can't justify, in my mind, spending the asking prices for a low/mid range bike. I feel that prices for these bikes have spiraled out of control. JMO.

[peanutgallery]

Given the state of the industry, especially in the US, I would state the opposite. Prices for bikes, parts and accessories are probably too low

[Mark McM]

There are so many different bike brands on the market, and so many different outlets to buy them, it is hard to believe that bikes are overpriced. If there were a cheaper way to make a bike with a particular feature set (and at a particular production volume), surely someone would do it in order to take a larger portion of market volume.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/John_Cartlidge/publication/293633999/figure/fig1/AS:327204224421890@1455022975004/Supply-and-Demand-curves-here-illustrated-as-straight-lines-show-the-quan-tities.png

Well, at least that should be the case for most bikes on the market. But the bikes that are being discussed here are really high-end specialty niche products. The law of supply and demand and its affect on pricings starts to break down in the specialty market. But this basic axiom still holds true: A product is worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. If people are buying these high-end niche products, then they must be priced right.

[oldpotatoe]

There are so many different bike brands on the market, and so many different outlets to buy them, it is hard to believe that bikes are overpriced. If there were a cheaper way to make a bike with a particular feature set (and at a particular production volume), surely someone would do it in order to take a larger portion of market volume.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/John_Cartlidge/publication/293633999/figure/fig1/AS:327204224421890@1455022975004/Supply-and-Demand-curves-here-illustrated-as-straight-lines-show-the-quan-tities.png

Well, at least that should be the case for most bikes on the market. But the bikes that are being discussed here are really high-end specialty niche products. The law of supply and demand and its affect on pricings starts to break down in the specialty market. But this basic axiom still holds true: A product is worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. If people are buying these high-end niche products, then they must be priced right.

Correct. I used to carry Ritchey folding tires..Made in the same factory in Thailand as a lot(like Vittoria)..REALLY good deal but almost 1/2 the retail $ of Vittoria..VERY cheap from Ritchey...COULDN'T sell em..so I added $10 to the price, sold them like mad...:)

[Black Dog]

There are overpriced bikes IMHO. I think that manufacturers need high end bikes and discounting them too much will kill their perceived quality. The halo bikes. In the minds of buyers there has now been established a price range for the best of the best. If a maker offers their best at 40% less than the others then people will think that it is not as good as the more expensive offerings. This is a buyers psychology issue not a supply demand issue. How do you sell the idea that you best bike is as good as the others in every way yet costs so much less? DO you come out and say that you have lowered your 1000% margin to 500%? Buyers have been long convinced that the tech in the high end bikes is so advanced that it has to cost that much. This is my speculation and not a claim of fact.

[Lanternrouge]

100% untrue.

Secondary market, yes. Buying new, as the original allocation holder, no.

Isn't the whole thing with original allocations on special models that you've had to buy a bunch of other really expensive Porsches just to get there. Also, I think what you are referring as secondary market is just someone walking into a dealer and wanting to buy one. I think we may be talking about somewhat different levels of things in terms of walking into a Porsche dealer and getting a crazy car and walking into a bike shop and getting a halo bike.

To get more back on the topic, another thing with the bike industry is that it doesn't seem as economically efficient as autos. The percentage difference between what it costs to build a bike part (or even complete bike) at a factory versus what it sells for at a shop is a lot different than what it costs to make a car at the factory and what it sells for at a shop. I know there are variations in vehicles at different levels in terms of profit margins, but I'm talking on an overall basis.

Another thing with bikes is that since the overall dollar amount is lower than cars, it's mentally easier to just pay more for the "best" (DA over Ultegra) than it is with a car. Granted, you're still paying twice the price for something that works basically the same, but it's easier to do that when the dollar figure is lower and you're buying something that's a passion. The price difference between a base Camry and one with some nicer options covers a pretty nice bike.

Now I'll get back to the work that affords me the ability to have some nice bikes.

[wernerherzogsid]

These banal justifications and half-witted rationales from crass capitalists justifying their excessive luxury purchases reminds me of hyenas on the savannah. Gathered as the scavengers they are, tearing at the carcass of a dead antelope brought down by some nobler beast, eating that which they have not earned while laughing all the while.

[peanutgallery]

The economics and psychology of purchasing niche bike stuff is one thing to consider, the reality in the trenches is another

The originator of the bike product is doing ok and the buyer of the product is getting a fair deal. The guy selling it to you is getting squeezed, the value to the consumer comes out of their end. The halo and niche stuff margins are particularly bad. Interesting times

[peanutgallery]

Dura ace stomach on a 105 budget:)

These banal justifications and half-witted rationales from crass capitalists justifying their excessive luxury purchases reminds me of hyenas on the savannah. Gathered as the scavengers they are, tearing at the carcass of a dead antelope brought down by some nobler beast, eating that which they have not earned while laughing all the while.

[BobO]

Pivot doesn't sell direct to customer;

https://www.pivotcycles.com/en/dealers

What percentage of the sale price of a $10K bike is the bike itself?

[RKW]

Disclaimer: I played the Porsche and Ferrari flip game for a few years - eventually it got to be a pretty big headache, but below is a high-level overview of how it works.

Isn't the whole thing with original allocations on special models that you've had to buy a bunch of other really expensive Porsches just to get there.

More than anything you just have to know how to play the game. I got into the allocation game by happenstance, but not exactly. You get onto the allocation list by starting small and establishing a good relationship with the dealer. Mine started before I was buying cars, when my dad bought a 993 GT2, and continually bought the new-fancy one as they offered him an allocation. He got older, and when the 997.2 GT3 allocation came, he was going to pass, and so I bought the allocation from him. I work with a different sales guy than he did, but the story works the same. Something special comes out, and I either take the allocation if I want the car, or I have the dealer go to the next name on the list.

Best way to stay on the list is to not take every allocation, which drives more business for the dealer.

To get into the allocation game, it just takes knowing people more than an established history. I got my roommate in college into the Porsche game after he graduated Law School. He started with a GT4 at MSRP, and went from there.

Also, I think what you are referring as secondary market is just someone walking into a dealer and wanting to buy one.

Kinda. If you buy the car New (as in...the first name on the title history) and you pay more than MSRP, PMNA will be especially unamused. The secondary market is when you buy the car "New" (as in...not the first name on the title history), and you pay whatever the market dictates.

A Porsche dealer can lose their franchise for selling a new car for more than MSRP. Lots of people (myself included) have received an allocation for a new "halo" (read GT/Speedster etc), and never taken physical delivery. Just titled it and immediately sold it back to the dealer for our cash cost + some return. At this point it's "Pre-Owned," and can be sold for whatever the market dictates.

Ferrari works the same way. Go into a Ferrari dealer and try to buy a new one - most won't sell you one, because there's more margin in them selling to an existing customer to drive it for a year (and 1500 miles or so), and then sell it back to the dealer, who can turnaround and sell it for over sticker.

If you want a new Ferrari, you buy a used one, and then buy the next model (or the one after that, depending on your dealer) new.

If you're willing to take the "risk" you can sell on your own, but often, dealers will stop putting you at the top of their allocation list if you don't throw them a bone when you sell the car. That's why/how I got out of the Ferrari game, I simply wasn't invited back when I sold my Scud with delivery miles on it. (And yes, I regret not driving it, but I didn't buy it as a car, I bought it as a rolling bank account)

I think we may be talking about somewhat different levels of things in terms of walking into a Porsche dealer and getting a crazy car and walking into a bike shop and getting a halo bike.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, in general, absolutely, specialist stuff, not so much. Go into your local Specialized dealer and try to get a new Shiv TT...they made 250 for the global non-team market for 2020. The only way you're getting one is if you have an existing relationship with the shop AND the rep.

[Mikej]

bikes and cars are both as expensive as you want them to be, or as cheap.

new bikes are fun and we all have our reasons for buying them, but we've all been on a group ride where someone riding a 500 dollar bike is killing it, and guys on 12k dollar bikes get dropped on the first big climb.

no big deal. i think the bottom line is that folks with disposable income will find ways to spend it. boats, cars, motorcycles, RV's, gambling, cocaine, high end escorts, stamp collections - what have you.

industries respond to that and cater to it.

if 10k dollar bikes are selling well, you can bet there will be 11k dollar bikes for sale next year and 12k the year after that until we find the breaking point.

OR, they get super cheap, like flat screen tv's - smiley face

[cash05458]

the whole sleight of hand thing via ten grand bikes vs the 100 thousand buck Ducatti thing is flat out silly...I mean, be serious... and I have no idea via the new mountain bike/gravel stuff and whatever that involves....but via road stuff...when tiagra loaded bikes go for 2 grand or so new, you know that there is a big problem with these things...

[Red Tornado]

the whole sleight of hand thing via ten grand bikes vs the 100 thousand buck Ducatti thing is flat out silly...I mean, be serious... and I have no idea via the new mountain bike/gravel stuff and whatever that involves....but via road stuff...when tiagra loaded bikes go for 2 grand or so new, you know that there is a big problem with these things...

Agreed

[sonicCows]

Riding bikes generally requires leisure time, and jobs that grant leisure time tend to be at the higher end of the pay scale. These high paying jobs have increased in pay in the past 10 years while most other lower-paying jobs remain stagnant. Bike companies are designing bikes for what their customers can afford. With increased revenues they can also now pay their staff more. Trickle down at work!

[Lanternrouge]

Disclaimer: I played the Porsche and Ferrari flip game for a few years - eventually it got to be a pretty big headache, but below is a high-level overview of how it works.



More than anything you just have to know how to play the game. I got into the allocation game by happenstance, but not exactly. You get onto the allocation list by starting small and establishing a good relationship with the dealer. Mine started before I was buying cars, when my dad bought a 993 GT2, and continually bought the new-fancy one as they offered him an allocation. He got older, and when the 997.2 GT3 allocation came, he was going to pass, and so I bought the allocation from him. I work with a different sales guy than he did, but the story works the same. Something special comes out, and I either take the allocation if I want the car, or I have the dealer go to the next name on the list.

Best way to stay on the list is to not take every allocation, which drives more business for the dealer.

To get into the allocation game, it just takes knowing people more than an established history. I got my roommate in college into the Porsche game after he graduated Law School. He started with a GT4 at MSRP, and went from there.



Kinda. If you buy the car New (as in...the first name on the title history) and you pay more than MSRP, PMNA will be especially unamused. The secondary market is when you buy the car "New" (as in...not the first name on the title history), and you pay whatever the market dictates.

A Porsche dealer can lose their franchise for selling a new car for more than MSRP. Lots of people (myself included) have received an allocation for a new "halo" (read GT/Speedster etc), and never taken physical delivery. Just titled it and immediately sold it back to the dealer for our cash cost + some return. At this point it's "Pre-Owned," and can be sold for whatever the market dictates.

Ferrari works the same way. Go into a Ferrari dealer and try to buy a new one - most won't sell you one, because there's more margin in them selling to an existing customer to drive it for a year (and 1500 miles or so), and then sell it back to the dealer, who can turnaround and sell it for over sticker.

If you want a new Ferrari, you buy a used one, and then buy the next model (or the one after that, depending on your dealer) new.

If you're willing to take the "risk" you can sell on your own, but often, dealers will stop putting you at the top of their allocation list if you don't throw them a bone when you sell the car. That's why/how I got out of the Ferrari game, I simply wasn't invited back when I sold my Scud with delivery miles on it. (And yes, I regret not driving it, but I didn't buy it as a car, I bought it as a rolling bank account)



I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, in general, absolutely, specialist stuff, not so much. Go into your local Specialized dealer and try to get a new Shiv TT...they made 250 for the global non-team market for 2020. The only way you're getting one is if you have an existing relationship with the shop AND the rep.

The car game sounds too complicated and I may have just had the simplified version relayed to me by people who've played it. There were some cars that seemed new at the local dealer that had something like "market adjustment" to the price. This was in contrast to the cars upstairs that were sold as pre-owned, such as the GT2RS at 150% of what sticker was when it was new.

My concept of a halo bike when I wrote that was just the highest end stuff versus something super limited production from one of the big boys priced at a premium over the standard version of basically the same thing. There are always people willing to pay a premium for exclusivity of pretty much anything and sometimes they need help rationalizing.

[kingpin75s]

The car game sounds too complicated and I may have just had the simplified version relayed to me by people who've played it. There were some cars that seemed new at the local dealer that had something like "market adjustment" to the price. This was in contrast to the cars upstairs that were sold as pre-owned, such as the GT2RS at 150% of what sticker was when it was new.

My concept of a halo bike when I wrote that was just the highest end stuff versus something super limited production from one of the big boys priced at a premium over the standard version of basically the same thing. There are always people willing to pay a premium for exclusivity of pretty much anything and sometimes they need help rationalizing.

Car game sounds like the watch game. There are plenty of models immediately worth more than MSRP so you generally cannot just walk into a dealer and expect to pick out that kind of prize. It takes building a relationship and playing the game.

[benb]

I mostly think the bike guys are blowing a lot of smoke when they try and compare themselves to car and motorcycle engineering and advancement.

I don’t even think bikes have innovated/improved as much as as cars and motorcycles in the 20 years I’ve been cycling.

2 more gears in the back and a maybe 10% average weight reduction don’t come close.

Cars are way safer, way more electronics, self driving features, more efficient, much faster, etc...

You can only make the comparison with motorcycles if you restrict the motorcycles to certain cruiser models. Sport focused motorcycles have advanced more than bicycles.

And everything on cars and motos has to meet regulations, last far longer, not break when exposed to bad weather, not require as frequent maintenance, etc..

The oil change interval on a car or motorcycle is practically “replace entire drivetrain” on a bicycle if subjected to similar weather.

[RKW]

Car game sounds like the watch game. There are plenty of models immediately worth more than MSRP so you generally cannot just walk into a dealer and expect to pick out that kind of prize. It takes building a relationship and playing the game.

Like actually getting a Daytona, lol.

[Mark McM]

I mostly think the bike guys are blowing a lot of smoke when they try and compare themselves to car and motorcycle engineering and advancement.

Pretty much this. And the car and motorcycle folks are blowing a lot of smoke too, when most of their "new" innovations actually came from the aviation industry.

[earlfoss]

They can write a great article attempting to justify the price on today's nice bikes but none of it will convince me that they aren't just making up MSRPs as a sick joke on the buyer.

My perception of things is that the bigger companies are making more money then they ever have. The days of legit pro deals, free product for sponsored teams, etc are long gone even though today it would represent a rounding error on their books.

[monarchguy]

After reading the article, I was all ready to write a scathing response, but olepotatoe (#8) and benb (#32) pretty much covered it. Bike research and tolerance -- try building an IC engine that runs well.

Dan

[earlfoss]

After reading the article, I was all ready to write a scathing response, but olepotatoe (#8) and benb (#32) pretty much covered it. Bike research and tolerance -- try building an IC engine that runs well.

Dan

I agree here, but I can't help but think that the whole "halo bike" thing has been the biggest factor in driving up MSRP over the past few years.

[Kirk007]

I agree here, but I can't help but think that the whole "halo bike" thing has been the biggest factor in driving up MSRP over the past few years.

And it all started, as I recall, with the Meivici tagging on about $2k over every other road bike on the market.

[Clean39T]

I agree here, but I can't help but think that the whole "halo bike" thing has been the biggest factor in driving up MSRP over the past few years.

I love halo bikes.........especially when they show up properly-packed and fully intact..

:banana:

Seriously tho, two thumbs up to BicycleBlueBook.com - great price - great packing - quick shipping.



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/7a82437f9188840ae1d3ba20be7c1c01.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Riding bikes generally requires leisure time, and jobs that grant leisure time tend to be at the higher end of the pay scale. These high paying jobs have increased in pay in the past 10 years while most other lower-paying jobs remain stagnant. Bike companies are designing bikes for what their customers can afford. With increased revenues they can also now pay their staff more. Trickle down at work!

Except that's not what is 'working'..That 'increased revenue' go into equipment or to stock holders or to owners pocket..very little goes into 'increased wages and/or benefits'.
I agree here, but I can't help but think that the whole "halo bike" thing has been the biggest factor in driving up MSRP over the past few years.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

Of course it has..certainly not because of bike tech 'precision' and the cost of creating and producing that. That's silly..BUT, many buy that pablum.

[Mikej]

I love halo bikes.........especially when they show up properly-packed and fully intact..

:banana:

Seriously tho, two thumbs up to BicycleBlueBook.com - great price - great packing - quick shipping.



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/7a82437f9188840ae1d3ba20be7c1c01.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Thread drifting, but what rack device set up do you have there?

[Davist]

Bikes are Veblen goods.. for many it's the conspicuous consumption aspect. Most (me included) don't need even an AL frame 105 bike to be perfectly "competitive" on the Starbucks ride.. and yet I ride with folks on Parlee's, etc. Definition here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp

[Clean39T]

Thread drifting, but what rack device set up do you have there?It's a Topeak freestanding rack. Came with four bike mounts and I have two removed to snug it up closer to the wall.. Paid $50 for it off CL iirc.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[JStonebarger]

This whole thread reminds me of why I haven't bought a new bike in 20 years.

[Black Dog]

Bikes are Veblen goods.. for many it's the conspicuous consumption aspect. Most (me included) don't need even an AL frame 105 bike to be perfectly "competitive" on the Starbucks ride.. and yet I ride with folks on Parlee's, etc. Definition here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp

This is certainly now the case. The shift started with the wave of 99'ers; when cycling became the new golf. But to be fair, this is typical human behaviour, just amplified above background levels in road cycling.

[benb]

It's a Topeak freestanding rack. Came with four bike mounts and I have two removed to snug it up closer to the wall.. Paid $50 for it off CL iirc.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Be careful with that! I have two in my garage. I drilled them and cabled them to the rafters after the telescoping mechanism didn’t work and the stand fell over. Seems to be related to weather changes.

When it fell the handlebar on my MTB dented the hood of my car.

[mhespenheide]

A counterpoint (although it's not a new observation, and it's one many people here already subscribe to):

Bikes that are good enough are proportionally cheaper than ever. Significantly so, if you're playing in the used market.

5800 performs at least as well at 7700 did. Possibly as good as 7800 did. Honestly, modern Tiagra 4700 probably performs as well as 7700 did. Dura-Ace (and Red and Super Record) have gotten so good, they're really not needed for any rider buying their own bike. (Which, of course, is not to say that you shouldn't buy it if you can afford it and want to.)

A 2019 CAAD12 with 105 on it cost ~$1600. My first good bike, a 1987 Bianchi Campione d'Italia, cost ~$800. Accounting for inflation, those $800 1987-dollars are worth about ~$1800. Is there anyone who would debate that the 2019 CAAD12 isn't a better bike?

If you want to go play on the bleeding edge, you're absolutely going to pay for it. It's astonishing to me that there's enough market demand for manufacturers to keep pushing below 800g for a frame, or even below 700g. Or that one-piece aero stem-handlebars are now a thing. Or that people are obsessing over eliminating 6-8" of brake and shift cables in the name of aerodynamics and trying to route them inside the stem.

Team Sky's idea of "marginal gains" has gone way too far into the general market. Buy what you want, but we're so far into the realm of diminishing returns (in the engineering sense) that the costs have skyrocketed as a result.

[robertbb]

For some reason:

1) Very few car drivers believe they need to be behind the wheel of an F1, as driven by Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel, to achieve their goal of driving from point A to point B (be that for business, errands, pleasure, whatever).

2) Apparently, many cyclists believe they need to be on a superbike, the likes of which is ridden by Peter Sagan or Chris Froome, for their local Sunday chain-gang.

Maybe this comes down to the latter being far more attainable (and of course street legal) than the former. But conceptually this makes absolutely NO sense.

Now at age 38, I finally realised that a good metal frame with round tubes, custom built wheels around aluminium rims, and a crisp mechanical groupset is all I will ever need to enjoy riding a bicycle.

Next stop for me I guess is to wear Birkenstocks with socks, a merino wool cardigan and a beard.

[sonicCows]

Except that's not what is 'working'..That 'increased revenue' go into equipment or to stock holders or to owners pocket..very little goes into 'increased wages and/or benefits'.

;)

On the other hand trickle down works really well for Dura Ace>>Ultegra>>105 etc.

In general I think bikes are too expensive to get people into the sport, and used bikes are all over the place and some knowledge to set up helps greatly. We can all probably be better ambassadors.

[Black Dog]

;)

On the other hand trickle down works really well for Dura Ace>>Ultegra>>105 etc.

In general I think bikes are too expensive to get people into the sport, and used bikes are all over the place and some knowledge to set up helps greatly. We can all probably be better ambassadors.

Good entry level bikes are very affordable and preform very well. Under $1000 and you can still get a great bike (new and not used).

Example: ~$1000 USD Retail.

https://mec.imgix.net/medias/sys_master/high-res/high-res/9079060135966/6005991-SGY04.jpg?w=1200&h=1200&auto=format&q=60&fit=fill&bg=FFF

[sonicCows]

Good entry level bikes are very affordable and preform very well. Under $1000 and you can still get a great bike (new and not used).

Example: ~$1000 USD Retail.

Agreed, recently my friend picked up a new Topstone with Sora for $850 or so on closeout, I rode it the other day and if I wasn't going uphill I'd hardly notice the extra weight. Braking wasn't as good as my SRAM hydros but definitely not bad.

That said, oversaturation of $2000+ bikes is sticker shock and discouraging to newcomers who enter a bike shop. There are definitely plenty of good used bikes at the $400-800 range, but beginners may need help with sizing and the necessary setup.

[9tubes]

I mostly think the bike guys are blowing a lot of smoke when they try and compare themselves to car and motorcycle engineering and advancement.

I don’t even think bikes have innovated/improved as much as as cars and motorcycles in the 20 years I’ve been cycling.


Pretty much this. And the car and motorcycle folks are blowing a lot of smoke too, when most of their "new" innovations actually came from the aviation industry.

My €0.02:

Most of the new innovations in motorcycles came from Formula 1 and MotoGP. The big changes in motorcycles in the last 15 years have been in the areas of electronics and aerodynamics: sophisticated traction control (I'm not talking about the stuff that comes on a Toyota), yaw control, wheelie control, active electronic suspension, computerized fueling systems for 16,000 rpm optimization that will blow your mind, active data logging, etc.

The author of the article and some of the people he quotes are simply not well informed. The guy who heads the mountain bike company can pat himself on the back all he wants but any objective observer of both industries can compare the number of finely-machined parts on a mountain bike vs even a garden-variety sportbike. Then let's add the electronics sophistication.

I've been close to the bike industry for a long time and I'd guess that a proper economic analysis would show that the pricing is a function of economies of scale, a seasonal business, very inefficient distribution channel, and mfg getting to overcharge for a halo bike (e.g. Specialized offering the $20,000 McLaren, or whatever Colnago and Pinarello are charging for the latest Super Record bike).