Bike fit for the masses?

[William]

For the members who have worked, or do work in a bike shop, out of curioustuty I'm going to ask: How do you fit people who don't understand bike fit?

What is most efficiant isn't always the most comfortable or safe feeling to a new potential rider/cyclist. Most people I have encountered who are new or occasional riders generally want to be able to put their feet flat on the ground while they sit in the saddle. Feels safer and more comfortable I'm sure but it certainly isn't the most efficiant set up...esp climbing hills. Trying to get them to consider a more efficient position often illicits a negative reaction..."Doesn't feel safe", "Can't touch the ground" etc...

Do you geanerally try to educate as to proper fit and sell that way?

Or do you generally just let it go as long as they are at their own comfort level?







W.

[HenryA]

Just let them ride and have fun. They may like it and want more. That’s where you come in.

[Skenry]

Kinda depends on the type of shop, the type of customer and the brands you sell.
Most customers that I ever had with those complaints were new cyclists who will maybe only ride a few times a Summer on a rec path. For them, hopefully you have a brand with a flatfoot or foot forward hybrid line. Electra was always the best seller but Giant and many other had it too.
You could sell that bike to anyone.

[Gummee]

For the members who have worked, or do work in a bike shop, out of curioustuty I'm going to ask: How do you fit people who don't understand bike fit?
W.
you don't bother (for the most part)

I may try to talk them out of flat footing bikes like a Harley, but otherwise, I keep my yap shut and let them figure out most of it.

I know I *should* try to talk fit and positioning, but for the most part, they're not in the right headspace for any of that.

Most need to learn how to operate the shifters first!

M

[Ti Designs]

You can always expect two things from people: 1) they are "motor morons", in other words they constantly cause injury. 2) They think they know far more than they do.

I keep asking the same question - why would anyone think they know about _____??? A driver yells some stupid advice at me while I'm out riding - what would make that driver think they know more about riding than the guy on the bike? I'm setting up a number of my clients on fixed gears for winter training, they all have these ideas of how they want the bike to be set up. Why would they think they know anything about riding a fixed gear? I keep returning to the Dunning-Kruger theory, people suck at assessing their own skill or understanding, and the world isn't critical enough to change that.

I fit people for a living, I work with injured people, I understand what causes injury. Having the saddle way too low so your feet can reach the ground is the perfect example of an irrational fear and a lack of understanding causing injury. Having the saddle too low probably means they are outside their range of motion at the top of the pedal stroke. Somewhere around 10:00 the pedal going over the top pushes their hip up. Then the SI joint shifts and the whole spine moves side to side. On a one time basis that doesn't seem so bad, do it 60 times a minute for more than an hour and you have the start of a lower back injury.

I don't really tell people stuff like this, I've learned to remain silent and let people do what they will. Watching a Spin class is painful, but it's not my place to point out that their quest for fitness is going wrong... The only time I get to say anything is when someone is paying me (or the shop) because they have an injury - then I can explain what they've done to themselves.

[William]

I fit people for a living, I work with injured people, I understand what causes injury. Having the saddle way too low so your feet can reach the ground is the perfect example of an irrational fear and a lack of understanding causing injury. Having the saddle too low probably means they are outside their range of motion at the top of the pedal stroke. Somewhere around 10:00 the pedal going over the top pushes their hip up. Then the SI joint shifts and the whole spine moves side to side. On a one time basis that doesn't seem so bad, do it 60 times a minute for more than an hour and you have the start of a lower back injury.

I don't really tell people stuff like this, I've learned to remain silent and let people do what they will. Watching a Spin class is painful, but it's not my place to point out that their quest for fitness is going wrong... The only time I get to say anything is when someone is paying me (or the shop) because they have an injury - then I can explain what they've done to themselves.


This is basically what I was getting at, I can see it's a catch 22. You would think you would want people to ride most efficiently which would make riding less work for a new rider and make it so they would be more likely to continue riding and maybe become repeat customers/avid cyclists.

But you can't always lead a horse to water.

So you don't say anything and they may percieve it as being too hard (bad fit) and/or ultimately develop injury and quit...or just remain that occasional rider.









W.

[mtechnica]

A lot of people resist doing things the right way, like the guys that won’t wear “spandex”z

[C40_guy]

This is basically what I was getting at, I can see it's a catch 22. You would think you would want people to ride most efficiently which would make riding less work for a new rider and make it so they would be more likely to continue riding and maybe become repeat customers/avid cyclists.

I'm in a related field (coaching sales people to sell complex IT services) and I've found that the big bang approach just doesn't work. It scares customers...they can't assimilate all the change at once. So I tell customers that their project will involve multiple steps, and that we are only going to focus on the initial phase -- getting the customer on the bike, comfortable, and wanting to ride. (Later we'll improve their *real* comfort and economy.)

For a new-to-biking customer, take baby steps. Get them comfortable on a bike, so that they won't be afraid to take it out and ride it... Suggest that they come back in two or four weeks for a fit checkup.

When (if) they come back, *start* to gently explain the approach to better fit. Raise their seat a couple of CM. Ask them to try it for a couple of weeks. Rinse and repeat.

You will become their LBE (local bike expert) and they will refer all their friends to you. (hence making the extra time worth the investment...)

[Ti Designs]

For a new-to-biking customer, take baby steps. Get them comfortable on a bike, so that they won't be afraid to take it out and ride it... Suggest that they come back in two or four weeks for a fit checkup.


This.

What we do at the bike shop is like putting a kid who just got their drivers license and sticking them in some exotic sports car with paddle shifters, and duct taping their feet to the pedals. It's all way too much. Bikes are much lighter and quicker, the brakes are sensitive to the touch, the shifting is totally different and confusing and then there are the pedals. The reason people are afraid of being clipped in is because people get on bikes with lots of distractions (brakes, shifters, traffic...) and they forget they're clipped in, so when they come to a stop it's panic time. In many cases this is done in steps. When I do a fitting there are some people who take to being clipped into pedals like they've been doing it for years. Others are still struggling at the end of the fitting. For those people I put the plastic flat pedals back on the bike and tell them to go learn the rest of the bike first. It's a week or two, and it saves at least one fall.

That applies to the people who get a fitting. Most people think cycling is as easy as riding a bike, which is to say that the "bike expert" is just some guy who lacks the talents to work elsewhere. As of late I've questioned if the staff at my shop (myself included) have real value, or are we the fraud that so many suspect we are? The easy test for this is simply to ride the bike with customers. The so-called experts should be some of the best riders out there. Maybe not in terms of fitness (that requires hours of training), but bike handling skills, bike fit, even which clothing they wear - they should be the experts on all that stuff, because that's the advice they're giving. They should look like they live on a bike...

[slowpoke]

What is most efficiant isn't always the most comfortable or safe feeling to a new potential rider/cyclist.

Depends on what the customer's goals are, right? Someone riding on a beach cruiser or commuter bike probably doesn't care about maximum power output, whereas your carbon racebike purchaser is more likely to.

If folks aren't comfortable on their bike, they ultimately won't ride it.

[Mark McM]

This is basically what I was getting at, I can see it's a catch 22. You would think you would want people to ride most efficiently which would make riding less work for a new rider and make it so they would be more likely to continue riding and maybe become repeat customers/avid cyclists.

I don't think that most efficient way to ride is necessarily the right starting point for most cyclists (or a lot of other things, either). You want to start from a point of comfort and enjoyment. And then we they become more experienced (and dare I say, "sophisticated"), they can be moved in the direction of efficiency.

For example, in cross-country skiing, the V2 skating technique (double poling with each skate push with the leg) is widely considered the most efficient technique. But it's also one of the most technically demanding. When people learn cross-country skiing, the V2 technique is not where they start.

Likewise, when a new cyclists (particularly adults) are being taught how to ride a bike, a common method is to remove the pedals and lower the saddle so the rider can easily reach the ground with their feet, and then have them scoot around by pushing off with their feet. When the rider becomes more comfortable and adapt at basic balancing/steering, then you can put the pedals back on. And when they become able to ride for some distance in varying circumstances without putting their foot down, you can consider raising the saddle for more efficiency.

Although mounting, starting, stopping and dismounting a bike with a high saddle may be second nature to all of us, it may be a whole new experience for the new cyclist. Its better for them to practice basic skills in a comfortable environment at first, and then introduce them to efficiency later. Some more casual cyclists might even prefer to not to have to learn how to ride a bike with a high saddle.

[Gummee]

One of the things I DO always make sure to tell people is that almost all their braking happens in the front so use it

I really hate that old adage about never touching the front brake

M

[Burning Pines]

When I was in college I volunteered with the co op to help get middle school kids on bikes. At one of the schools we were at one of the other volunteers kept yelling at the 6th graders that their seats were too low. Don’t be that guy.

[William]

when i was in college i volunteered with the co op to help get middle school kids on bikes. At one of the schools we were at one of the other volunteers kept yelling at the 6th graders that their seats were too low. Don’t be that guy.

but they were too low dang it!!! :);)






w.

[Ti Designs]

If folks aren't comfortable on their bike, they ultimately won't ride it.

Most people assume a bike is uncomfortable and they accept that. I watch what bike commuters do to themselves on a daily basis, it's really horrible. That's the common view of riding a bike. That's why there are charity rides, it's based on guilt. People pledge money for a cause because someone is going to ride some long distance. You don't see people doing things they know are comfortable to raise money...


I don't think that most efficient way to ride is necessarily the right starting point for most cyclists (or a lot of other things, either). You want to start from a point of comfort and enjoyment. And then we they become more experienced (and dare I say, "sophisticated"), they can be moved in the direction of efficiency.

I disagree. People have learned how to walk, so you see them putting all of their body weight on their feet. You don't see them supporting themselves on garbage cans or mail boxes as they walk down the street. Then they get on a bike, which should be the same dynamic, but as soon as the pedals start to move they find somewhere else to put much of their body weight - the handlebars. These are not people who can do a plank for 2 hours, but they do that to themselves on the bike. Any time I work with someone on fit, my first goal is to get body weight on their feet.

[unterhausen]

I rode the full length of the Penn Creek rail trail and saw how people set their saddles. Some of them must have been lower than what is required to be flat footed on the ground while sitting on the saddle. There was one group that was struggling to keep up with an 8 y.o. that had her saddle set right. I thought that was pretty funny.

I got hoarse telling people I was passing, should have put a bell on the bike.

[Bentley]

You can always expect two things from people: 1) they are "motor morons", in other words they constantly cause injury. 2) They think they know far more than they do.



I fit people for a living, I work with injured people, I understand what causes injury. Having the saddle way too low so your feet can reach the ground is the perfect example of an irrational fear and a lack of understanding causing injury. Having the saddle too low probably means they are outside their range of motion at the top of the pedal stroke. Somewhere around 10:00 the pedal going over the top pushes their hip up. Then the SI joint shifts and the whole spine moves side to side. On a one time basis that doesn't seem so bad, do it 60 times a minute for more than an hour and you have the start of a lower back injury.

I don't really tell people stuff like this, I've learned to remain silent and let people do what they will. Watching a Spin class is painful, but it's not my place to point out that their quest for fitness is going wrong... The only time I get to say anything is when someone is paying me (or the shop) because they have an injury - then I can explain what they've done to themselves.

In general I agree with this. With respect to a bike, I was on the "wrong" bike for a long time... Suffered as a result. My sense is that in general, trying to "fit" during the sale is likely the wrong time. I think it would be best to get the bike fit in the "right general area" during the sale, suggest the rider comes back after a month/6 weeks for an assessment. I think that the folks that return would be interested in a proper fit, maybe not a Retul or something similar but a fine tuning based on some actual use.

Spin classes... I do this a lot on travel, getting "the fit right" is something that is "taught" at good spin studios, very simple. That said, most folks have the seat too low, the bars too high. The seat position is the biggest problem since I see the person bouncing on the seat for an hour....

I think a shop that offers at least a basic fit... will see a return over the long haul. I think the professional fit is something more for the enthusiast....

[oldpotatoe]

I rode the full length of the Penn Creek rail trail and saw how people set their saddles. Some of them must have been lower than what is required to be flat footed on the ground while sitting on the saddle. There was one group that was struggling to keep up with an 8 y.o. that had her saddle set right. I thought that was pretty funny.

I got hoarse telling people I was passing, should have put a bell on the bike.

Yup...:eek:

[sparky33]

I disagree. People have learned how to walk, so you see them putting all of their body weight on their feet. You don't see them supporting themselves on garbage cans or mail boxes as they walk down the street. Then they get on a bike, which should be the same dynamic, but as soon as the pedals start to move they find somewhere else to put much of their body weight - the handlebars. These are not people who can do a plank for 2 hours, but they do that to themselves on the bike. Any time I work with someone on fit, my first goal is to get body weight on their feet.

For sure, it is good to get someone to an optimal position as quickly as possible. Though how do you approach the mental component of riding progression?...where what feels safe may lag behind what is efficient. Can you get their weight on their feet with this constraint?

[Mark McM]

I disagree. People have learned how to walk, so you see them putting all of their body weight on their feet. You don't see them supporting themselves on garbage cans or mail boxes as they walk down the street. Then they get on a bike, which should be the same dynamic, but as soon as the pedals start to move they find somewhere else to put much of their body weight - the handlebars. These are not people who can do a plank for 2 hours, but they do that to themselves on the bike. Any time I work with someone on fit, my first goal is to get body weight on their feet.

Learning to ride a bike isn't about riders being able to support themselves on their feet - its about learning to balance and control the bike. Perhaps we've been riding so long we forget that new riders haven't learned basic skills that we've come to take for granted. Children are used to just trying something until they figure it out without thinking much about the consequences of doing it wrong, but I know several adults who are so terribly afraid of falling over that they won't try riding a bike at all.

[Ti Designs]

Learning to ride a bike isn't about riders being able to support themselves on their feet - its about learning to balance and control the bike.

But having 1/3rd of your body weight on the handlebars makes it really hard to balance and control the bike...

You would think that learning how to get your body weight on the pedals would be one more thing to remember in an already complex task, but it's not. It's not a new skill set, it's retasking a skill they already have - sitting. Once they get that, teaching them how to ride is pretty simple.

On the other hand there is a local school that teaches adults how to ride a bike, which doesn't go over posture on the bike or where the weight is supported. I would gladly put my student's progress up against theirs.

[Mark McM]

But having 1/3rd of your body weight on the handlebars makes it really hard to balance and control the bike...

You would think that learning how to get your body weight on the pedals would be one more thing to remember in an already complex task, but it's not. It's not a new skill set, it's retasking a skill they already have - sitting. Once they get that, teaching them how to ride is pretty simple.

On the other hand there is a local school that teaches adults how to ride a bike, which doesn't go over posture on the bike or where the weight is supported. I would gladly put my student's progress up against theirs.

But when people get up out their chair, they typically use both legs at the same time, so they don't have to work on lateral balance. And even if they did get up out of their chair alternating their weight between their legs, they don't have to deal with the floor (pedal) descending under them as the shift their weight onto a leg. So no, learning how to apply their weight to the pedals while staying in balance is not the same as sitting in a chair.

Shifting body weight back and forth between the pedals requires new coordination and balance. And then throw in that upper body movement can result in steering actions that also affect balance, and you have a whole new set of skills to master. True enough, most of us can learn this skill with enough time, but it can be a lot all at once for someone who has never ridden a bike (or other single track vehicle) before.