Bike Store Owner Opposes Bike Lanes Outside His Shop

[XXtwindad]

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2020/02/21/bike-shop-owner-opposes-car-free-valencia/

The owner of one of SF's most popular bike shops opposes bike lanes in a busy corridor next to his shop. Apparently, he doesn't want to inconvenience customers by eliminating parking spots.

[yinzerniner]

As he's of prioritizing his current customers and revenue source without thinking about the better long term forecast of more widespread protected lanes adoption.

Here's the owner's response in full, of which he raises some interesting points:
Most of our new bike customers drive here and return home with their new bike in their car. This is especially true for children’s bikes. Likewise, a lot of bicycles in need of repair are not rideable, and are driven here to be fixed. Parking on the street has gotten prohibitively expensive and harder to find. Many parking spaces are taken by the banks of share-rental bikes and parklets. It seems that our bike lane will soon become a “protected bike lane,” which inevitably results in even more spaces lost. If the city is truly interested in keeping small businesses, especially legacy businesses, alive and well, then there needs to be a balanced use of our public streets.

However the owner kind of can't see the forest for the trees. The summary in the last paragraphs of the article puts it best:
.....anything that makes it safer and more comfortable for cyclists gets more people–especially families–willing to bike.
That translates into more customers for his shop, including parents looking for cargo bikes, which he sees as a growing part of his business.
a car-free Valencia or the installation of well-designed protected bike lanes and intersections will go a long way towards encouraging families to cycle, in addition to reducing crashes and injuries. So even if Olszewski doesn’t prioritize safety over convenient car parking as a worthy goal on its own, he should at least consider that more cyclists means more customers–not to mention that live cyclists spend more money than dead ones.

[unterhausen]

they keep trying to make a short street in State College into a pedestrian plaza. There are 17 parking spaces on this street, none of which are ever empty. There is traffic circling around looking for parking spaces, lots of illegal u turns and high speed traffic threatening the people that actually shop on this street -- pedestrians. Three business owners are suing to keep it open. The crazy thing is, it's less than a 5 minute walk to three parking garages

[Plum Hill]

Walk five minutes?
In America?

[Mark McM]

He's looking for the city to subsidize his business. Cities today devote far too much space to automobiles, particularly space to park them. Some may say that parking is too expensive, but in reality it is a bargain. When you compare it to cost per square foot for city rental properties (housing, commercial, etc.), parking rates don't pay their fare share, and are subsidized by the city. If the LBS owner was asked to pay the true costs of the parking spaces in front of his business, he'd probably be singing a different tune.

[yinzerniner]

He's looking for the city to subsidize his business. Cities today devote far too much space to automobiles, particularly space to park them. Some may say that parking is too expensive, but in reality it is a bargain. When you compare it to cost per square foot for city rental properties (housing, commercial, etc.), parking rates don't pay their fare share, and are subsidized by the city. If the LBS owner was asked to pay the true costs of the parking spaces in front of his business, he'd probably be singing a different tune.

This times 1000x.

I tried explaining it to a friend who complains about the dearth of free parking in busy downtown areas. He couldn't fathom exactly how much of a handout or subsidy free parking really is until I compared it to having a permanent marked spot for people to bbq and set up a tent all day, every day, in the middle of a street. The noxious fumes are roughly the same and the public utility is roughly the same, if not more since at least people get enjoyment out of a BBQ as opposed to two tons of stationary nothing. That definitely got his attention if not changed his perception a bit.

[CNY rider]

This times 1000x.

I tried explaining it to a friend who complains about the dearth of free parking in busy downtown areas. He couldn't fathom exactly how much of a handout or subsidy free parking really is until I compared it to having a permanent marked spot for people to bbq and set up a tent all day, every day, in the middle of a street. The noxious fumes are roughly the same and the public utility is roughly the same, if not more since at least people get enjoyment out of a BBQ as opposed to two tons of stationary nothing. That definitely got his attention if not changed his perception a bit.

I have friends that expect to find street parking spots in Manhattan when they drive into the city.
I tell them next time I come down I want to bring our piano and have the city provide a place for me to store it while we visit.
To me it's simple: Your car, your private object. Why should the city or town provide you with "free" storage for your private possessions?
There are Manhattan studio apartments that are barely bigger than a parking spot and they sure aren't free.

[tomato coupe]

I tried explaining it to a friend who complains about the dearth of free parking in busy downtown areas...

Your car, your private object. Why should the city or town provide you with "free" storage for your private possessions?
He's not asking for free parking; he just wants to keep the metered parking that presently exists in front of his shop.

[jtakeda]

He's not asking for free parking; he just wants to keep the metered parking that presently exists in front of his shop.

A lot of businesses in busy metro areas attract customers by having a parking lot.

The city has other plans with the metered parking in front of the shop. If he wants parking he can build a parking lot.

I wonder what people would think if we implemented Mexico City style restrictions where you can only drive on certain days if your license plate ends in xyz.

Or Japanese restrictions where you have to show proof of parking before you can even buy a vehicle

[jamesdak]

All these comments and strange viewpoints make me so glad I don't live in a city. No parking, pay for parking, no vehicle,.....no thanks!

[Skenry]

The businessman just wants to stay in business. If I need something and it's not convienient for me to get it from him, I can order it online. It'll most likely be cheaper and I can get it tomorrow most of the time and quite often anymore, the same day.
If I have to drive around looking for a spot, most likely my phone will be out already looking for the item on Amazon.

[Heisenberg]

All these comments and strange viewpoints make me so glad I don't live in a city. No parking, pay for parking, no vehicle,.....no thanks!

where do you live?

*ps this shop sucks

[pinoymamba]

I dislikeed how my city added bike lanes near my house for the upcoming Bart station and I commute by bicycle :cool:

[fiamme red]

I've been commuting by bike nearly every day for the past 20 years and I also strongly oppose segregated bike lanes. Call me a hypocrite if you like. :rolleyes:

Streetsblog is an anti-car propaganda website. It's not objective journalism.

[colker]

I wonder what people would think if we implemented Mexico City style restrictions where you can only drive on certain days if your license plate ends in xyz.

São Paulo does the same... those two cities have terrible traffic but big garages. Owners end up buying another car so they can drive everyday.

[tomato coupe]

A lot of businesses in busy metro areas attract customers by having a parking lot.

The city has other plans with the metered parking in front of the shop. If he wants parking he can build a parking lot.
Great idea! What are the odds that there is a vacant lot next door?

[Waterlogged]

Regardless of my personal stance on the subject of bike lanes, the store is probably his/her primary source of income. Many people will choose an alternative store if they can’t park nearby. Very few additional people will now go to that store just because of the new bike lane. Do the math.

[sfo1]

Can’t blame a small business owner for looking out for his best interest (drive in customers and this not a high end shop by any means). The fact is that bike commuting numbers are down (thanks Uber and Lyft race-to-the-bottom pricing, private shuttles and company hand-out freebie transit passes and credits) yet the City continues to remove retail corridor street parking (Polk, Divis, etc) for dwindling commuter numbers. This City makes it incredibly difficult on small business owners and we won’t even talk about rent rates.

Wonder why there are so many vacant storefronts in SF? Now the supes want to tax landlords that have vacant storefronts. Off topic.

[jtakeda]

Great idea! What are the odds that there is a vacant lot next door?

All I’m trying to say is if having customers park at your business is paramount to you business staying open then you should have a parking lot.

Why does every other bike shop in sf have no parking lot and still manage to stay open?

Huckleberry? Warm planet? Box dog?

[martl]

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2020/02/21/bike-shop-owner-opposes-car-free-valencia/

The owner of one of SF's most popular bike shops opposes bike lanes in a busy corridor next to his shop. Apparently, he doesn't want to inconvenience customers by eliminating parking spots.

Exact same thing happening in my home town of Munich. The Fraunhofer Straße got some parking removed and bike lanes created, 95% of the people living there love it, the other 5% make noise. One of them is the owner of a bike store in said road.

[XXtwindad]

As he's of prioritizing his current customers and revenue source without thinking about the better long term forecast of more widespread protected lanes adoption.

Here's the owner's response in full, of which he raises some interesting points:


However the owner kind of can't see the forest for the trees. The summary in the last paragraphs of the article puts it best:

Actually, I think my title was poorly thought out. So I changed it. I actually don't think many (most?) bike store owners are concerned with bike activism. They're much more concerned with making a profit, which is understandable. So, perhaps not that hypocritical after all.

[XXtwindad]

He's looking for the city to subsidize his business. Cities today devote far too much space to automobiles, particularly space to park them. Some may say that parking is too expensive, but in reality it is a bargain. When you compare it to cost per square foot for city rental properties (housing, commercial, etc.), parking rates don't pay their fare share, and are subsidized by the city. If the LBS owner was asked to pay the true costs of the parking spaces in front of his business, he'd probably be singing a different tune.

Though provoking response. As per usual.

[jamesdak]

where do you live?



"Paradise" !

The road in this pic is part of my daily bike ride route.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/90804252.jpg


I'll smack a grizzly on the nose and let him eat me before I ever live in a city. :banana:

[colker]

He's looking for the city to subsidize his business. Cities today devote far too much space to automobiles, particularly space to park them. Some may say that parking is too expensive, but in reality it is a bargain. When you compare it to cost per square foot for city rental properties (housing, commercial, etc.), parking rates don't pay their fare share, and are subsidized by the city. If the LBS owner was asked to pay the true costs of the parking spaces in front of his business, he'd probably be singing a different tune.

Excellent use of rational thought. I don´t see why tax money should be used to subsidize the car habit.

[temeyone]

If you live in a major city, are employed in said major city, and have your necessary requisite stores near enough to walk, there should be no reason to own a car. I moved to NYC from Indiana knowing that would be the case, still ended up with a car for a few years, sold it and have never looked back. car-sharing has gotten to a point where it's not only feasible for trips outside the city, but much cheaper and convenient than owning a car. When I see people sitting for hours in their cars waiting for alternate side parking hours to end, I wonder what's wrong with their existence.

[redir]

"Paradise" !

The road in this pic is part of my daily bike ride route.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/90804252.jpg


I'll smack a grizzly on the nose and let him eat me before I ever live in a city. :banana:

I hear ya. After growing up in the NYC MEtro area, ten years in Washington DC, a short stint in Louisville, I'm done with city life :banana:

https://i.imgur.com/u6y9LVgh.jpg

[zap]

I wonder what people would think if we implemented Mexico City style restrictions where you can only drive on certain days if your license plate ends in xyz.

Not a big deal. Purchase another vehicle and pay someone at DMV to get a zyx tag.

[XXtwindad]

Bike Lanes: segregated in more than one way?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/amp/One-place-where-white-men-still-reign-supreme-15084274.php

[merlinmurph]

We have a similar situation in my small town of 13000. There is an initiative to do a makeover of the small, downtown area and one of the elements is removing some parking and installing segregated bike lanes. The businesses that are there and various town residents are crying about the lost parking. Realistically, there is enough parking in the area, you may just have to walk a few hundred yards. Horrors. It really is a battle. The redesign was passed by town meeting awhile ago, and a special vote was just held (unprecedented) to vote on it again.

As an aside, the proposed design of the bike lanes is being panned by cycling advocates. Our local advocate, Ed Harrow (some Boston locals know him), has written number of letters explaining why the current design is unsafe. Of course, his views fall on deaf ears. I find it amazing how things such as bike lanes are designed by people that will never use them.

[temeyone]

And even if they are designed properly, expecting any key element integral to their safety to be enforced is a losing battle. Here in NYC, the only increased enforcement we see is for numbingly petty cycling-related offenses. I can go outside right now and take 10 photos in one minute of Ubers, delivery trucks, and delivery scooters parked in the bike lane or using it as part of the road

[Mark McM]

On a related topic, your city might be involved in Parking Day, in which metered parking spots are converted to public open spaces a day, for all the public to enjoy a little more open space in the middle of the city:

https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/see-how-people-take-back-their-streets-international-parking-day/179091/

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/41/01/63/8658139/3/420x0.jpg

[Mark McM]

Another thing to consider is that multiple parking spaces are required for each car, and all that space adds up.


But how many parking spaces do we need?

Parking turns out to be surprisingly important in terms of supply chain energy, and even more so in terms of supply chain greenhouse gas pollution, as I discovered in researching the conference paper two weeks ago. The University of California at Berkeley's Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering found that one can document that there are about 3.4 parking spaces in America for each car, and that many well-cited and informed guesstimates say there may be as many as EIGHT parking spaces per car.

Why so many? Think about it: most people drive to work and need one parking space for each car at work and at home; they also need a space at their shopping center(s), friends' or families' homes, their church or other such facility, the sports stadium or school football field, at their restaurants or coffee shops and cleaners, and at their recreation facilities such as parks, movie theaters, etc.

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/david-b-goldstein/does-every-car-need-8-parking-spaces-ride-sharing-can-save-emissions

[cgolvin]

i'm done with city life :banana:

1697993313

Also, paging Donald Shoup et al (https://www.its.ucla.edu/parking/)

[wernerherzogsid]

Man's propensity for irrational self-destruction is without limit.

[jtakeda]

Not a big deal. Purchase another vehicle and pay someone at DMV to get a zyx tag.

That’s a good point. But try parking 2 cars in SF lol. I never drive to sf cuz I can’t even find parking for 1 car

[tuscanyswe]

All these comments and strange viewpoints make me so glad I don't live in a city. No parking, pay for parking, no vehicle,.....no thanks!

No vehicle is actually fantastic. You just have to adjust your lifestyle to a different norm. A better one if you ask me (i have a car i just dont use it)

[AngryScientist]

i didnt read the whole article, but let's just remember, it's easy for us to talk about this stuff on a bike forum, and opine about best use of city real estate, but this person owns a shop, and his livelihood and shop viability is on the line. if his business truly depends on drive up customers, and the city is making it less convenient for his customers to drive up, it's not a surprise that he would oppose such a change.

i live in North Jersey and my office is in NYC, and i would never consider driving into the city, it's just not something we do here, generally speaking. i guess i never really thought too much about it: how do city dwellers get their broken bikes to the bike shop? carry them by hand on public transportation i suppose?

it's an interesting conversation, and change is on the horizon!

[temeyone]

If my bike is broken badly enough that I can’t limp it to the bike shop, I probably didn’t make it home either. These aren’t broken bikes being driven to the shop - they’re just bikes due for regular maintenance/upgrades that owners don’t feel like riding to the shop. I’m confident in this.
I understand the perspective of the shop owner, but if your clientele isn’t willing to walk a few minutes to your shop, perhaps they aren’t going to be consistent customers regardless

[Mark McM]

If my bike is broken badly enough that I can’t limp it to the bike shop, I probably didn’t make it home either. These aren’t broken bikes being driven to the shop - they’re just bikes due for regular maintenance/upgrades that owners don’t feel like riding to the shop. I’m confident in this.

Remember, there are many bike owners (usually the more casual cyclists) who will bring their bike into the shop for a flat tire.

I understand the perspective of the shop owner, but if your clientele isn’t willing to walk a few minutes to your shop, perhaps they aren’t going to be consistent customers regardless

I wonder about this too - are there that many bike shops in this area, that people can drive to the next shop in less time than it takes to walk from a parking space that's not directly in front of the shop? I can see how available parking can make a big difference in more commodity based shops (say, coffee shops, where the next one is just a block or two away), but bike shops typically serve a more specialty market, and are fewer and further between.

[br995]

I've been commuting by bike nearly every day for the past 20 years and I also strongly oppose segregated bike lanes. Call me a hypocrite if you like. :rolleyes:

It's more like 14 years for me but I somewhat agree. Segregated bike lanes - at least how they're often done here in Boston - take cyclists out of the view of motorists and therefore out of their consideration. Which is a problem at intersections, sidestreets, or whenever the segregated bike lane ends.

On a personal level I also hate being locked into a bike lane and losing the ability to pass & maneuver around obstacles/other road users.

That being said, I'd never say I strongly oppose segregated bike lanes. They are a net-benefit for cities where most people aren't dedicated cyclists like those of us in this forum; are great for tourists and making visitors feel more comfortable; and advance the goal of reducing car use in cities which we should all get behind.

[BobbyJones]

Great points for argument, but an oversimplification. Think about the slippery slope of "what your taxes pay for" vs. "what resources you use" discussions

He's looking for the city to subsidize his business. Cities today devote far too much space to automobiles, particularly space to park them. Some may say that parking is too expensive, but in reality it is a bargain. When you compare it to cost per square foot for city rental properties (housing, commercial, etc.), parking rates don't pay their fare share, and are subsidized by the city. If the LBS owner was asked to pay the true costs of the parking spaces in front of his business, he'd probably be singing a different tune.

[Robot870]

i didnt read the whole article, but let's just remember, it's easy for us to talk about this stuff on a bike forum, and opine about best use of city real estate, but this person owns a shop, and his livelihood and shop viability is on the line. if his business truly depends on drive up customers, and the city is making it less convenient for his customers to drive up, it's not a surprise that he would oppose such a change.

i live in North Jersey and my office is in NYC, and i would never consider driving into the city, it's just not something we do here, generally speaking. i guess i never really thought too much about it: how do city dwellers get their broken bikes to the bike shop? carry them by hand on public transportation i suppose?

it's an interesting conversation, and change is on the horizon!

For me i have 3 bike stores within 2 blocks and one on my corner - Very easy living.....

[Heisenberg]

"Paradise" !

The road in this pic is part of my daily bike ride route.

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/90804252.jpg


I'll smack a grizzly on the nose and let him eat me before I ever live in a city. :banana:

ah, the ogden valley in june is one of my favorite places to ride. if VC dude wants his customers to drive to his shop, maybe he should open up in eden.

anyway, back to op - valencia cyclery sells bikes directly to the people who benefit most from protected lanes and improved infrastructure. their stance re: bike lanes gives a lot of ammo to those opposed to more mobility in cities. ultimately, even outside of the backlash, this kind of behavior will hurt his bottom line. also, pretty sure they own both buildings they occupy. this city is too damned compact for extensive private vehicle usage (also DRIVING HERE IS SO SLOW). there is not enough room, period, compounded by the influx of rideshare cars from outside the city. we need to figure out alternatives to what we have now. making other mobility options more palatable to the general public through things like protected lanes is a step in the right direction and a net benefit overall.

i'm interested to see the data around lyft/uber bikeshare usage and how it affects personal bike usage (does it turn more people on to riding bikes? i've had a few friends get a bike of their own because they liked the bikeshares, but anecdotal data is useless).

tbh i don't own a townie bike in SF because of the rampant theft issues. if bike theft were actually prosecuted/policed i'd be more inclined to put together a cheaper bike to cruise around town on.

[rwsaunders]

how do city dwellers get their broken bikes to the bike shop? carry them by hand on public transportation i suppose?

One of our kids lived near the University of Washington campus for two years and her bike needed some repairs, beyond what I could do. During a business trip in town, I called an Uber XL, popped the bike in the rear of the van and hauled it to the shop...easy peasy. I could have rented a Zipcar for an hour too.

[jtakeda]

tbh i don't own a townie bike in SF because of the rampant theft issues. if bike theft were actually prosecuted/policed i'd be more inclined to put together a cheaper bike to cruise around town on.

The theft problem is bad, but not so bad that you can’t ride a bike around town. Lock your saddle and seatpost with a small chain, locking skewers and a u-lock. Don’t leave your bike overnight and try not leave it for hours on end.

I’ve been riding a landshark around sf for the last 8 years 5 days a week and I’ve had PLENTY of water bottles stolen but *knock on wood* the bike is still with me

[Heisenberg]

The theft problem is bad, but not so bad that you can’t ride a bike around town. Lock your saddle and seatpost with a small chain, locking skewers and a u-lock. Don’t leave your bike overnight and try not leave it for hours on end.

I’ve been riding a landshark around sf for the last 8 years 5 days a week and I’ve had PLENTY of water bottles stolen but *knock on wood* the bike is still with me

my paranoia is amplified by the four chop shops in spitting distance of where i'm sitting. sigh.

also, this demands pics of said landshark.

[robt57]

Another thing to consider is that multiple parking spaces are required for each car, and all that space adds up.


But how many parking spaces do we need?


Seems the question here is how many customers does he need to pay for just the lights and phone, rent etc.

My first thought was the guy may have had experience in a dead month here and there from road work/blockages and well knows what kind cost this will be for his business.

Not so much that he is a hypocrite in the context.

Not the jerk with the bike rack on his car that near hits me with his mirror.....

[XXtwindad]

ah, the ogden valley in june is one of my favorite places to ride. if VC dude wants his customers to drive to his shop, maybe he should open up in eden.

anyway, back to op - valencia cyclery sells bikes directly to the people who benefit most from protected lanes and improved infrastructure. their stance re: bike lanes gives a lot of ammo to those opposed to more mobility in cities. ultimately, even outside of the backlash, this kind of behavior will hurt his bottom line. also, pretty sure they own both buildings they occupy. this city is too damned compact for extensive private vehicle usage (also DRIVING HERE IS SO SLOW). there is not enough room, period, compounded by the influx of rideshare cars from outside the city. we need to figure out alternatives to what we have now. making other mobility options more palatable to the general public through things like protected lanes is a step in the right direction and a net benefit overall.

i'm interested to see the data around lyft/uber bikeshare usage and how it affects personal bike usage (does it turn more people on to riding bikes? i've had a few friends get a bike of their own because they liked the bikeshares, but anecdotal data is useless).

tbh i don't own a townie bike in SF because of the rampant theft issues. if bike theft were actually prosecuted/policed i'd be more inclined to put together a cheaper bike to cruise around town on.

Context is important here. For those not familiar with the SF, Valencia Street is a major corridor that has been targeted by the City to convert over to "car free" status. It's not as if it's in the "Outer Lands."

I do think the article I cited previously has merit. Are bike lanes making it easier for the "haves" to be more mobile at the expense of the "have-nots?"

[ibis]

I’ve been riding a landshark around sf for the last 8 years 5 days a week and I’ve had PLENTY of water bottles stolen but *knock on wood* the bike is still with me

Did you/do you occasionally lock it up on Polk (Polk and Market) in front of the building with the Starbucks and Anderson bakery? If so I've seen it. A lot.

[fiamme red]

It's more like 14 years for me but I somewhat agree. Segregated bike lanes - at least how they're often done here in Boston - take cyclists out of the view of motorists and therefore out of their consideration. Which is a problem at intersections, sidestreets, or whenever the segregated bike lane ends.

On a personal level I also hate being locked into a bike lane and losing the ability to pass & maneuver around obstacles/other road users.

That being said, I'd never say I strongly oppose segregated bike lanes. They are a net-benefit for cities where most people aren't dedicated cyclists like those of us in this forum; are great for tourists and making visitors feel more comfortable; and advance the goal of reducing car use in cities which we should all get behind.Normally I ride down 2nd Ave in Manhattan in the bus lane, but I was riding one Sunday a few weeks ago with a novice cyclist, so I took the segregated bike lane instead. Every two blocks we had a conflict with a vehicle turning left across the bike lane. No wonder, because the drivers couldn't see us until they were already in the middle of the intersection, their view being blocked by the row of parked cars "protecting" us. I don't have conflicts with turning vehicles when I'm in the bus lane on the right side of the avenue.

Advocates of cyclist segregation who are honest would have to admit that segregated lanes don't make cycling safer, they just make novice cyclists (who are mainly afraid of getting hit from behind) less fearful. This, they would argue, increases the number of cyclists, which makes everyone safer, due to the "safety in numbers" effect. However, I'd argue that "safety in numbers" is for the most part a myth, although cycling advocates treat it as unshakable dogma.

[jtakeda]

Did you/do you occasionally lock it up on Polk (Polk and Market) in front of the building with the Starbucks and Anderson bakery? If so I've seen it. A lot.

1390 market.
I go to the post office a lot. Also the city attorneys office is there and I go fairly often

[jtakeda]

my paranoia is amplified by the four chop shops in spitting distance of where i'm sitting. sigh.

also, this demands pics of said landshark.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1910/44424101284_fd0a6b9445_c.jpg

[slowpoke]

Advocates of cyclist segregation who are honest would have to admit that segregated lanes don't make cyclists safer, they just make novice cyclists (who are mainly afraid of getting hit from behind) less fearful. This, they would argue, increases the number of cyclists, which makes everyone safer, due to "safety in numbers." However, the "safety in numbers" effect is for the most part a myth that is not based on any sound data.

Yeah, it seems to be the goal of bike coalitions around the US to get people in cities to be riding--which is good, because hopefully it converts to less drivers commuting.

However, a lot of segregated lanes are poorly laid out. In San Francisco, the one on 7th Street between Howard and Mission is fraught with the danger of cars try to creep across smaller side streets and poor visibility.

My other issue with segregated lanes is that drivers (and probably police) will get offended when bikers leave the bike lane. I've been yelled at twice by angry drivers to "stay in the bike lane!"

[jtakeda]

Yeah, it seems to be the goal of bike coalitions around the US to get people in cities to be riding--which is good, because hopefully it converts to less drivers commuting.

However, a lot of segregated lanes are poorly laid out. In San Francisco, the one on 7th Street between Howard and Mission is fraught with the danger of cars try to creep across smaller side streets and poor visibility.

My other issue with segregated lanes is that drivers (and probably police) will get offended when bikers leave the bike lane. I've been yelled at twice by angry drivers to "stay in the bike lane!"

This is the biggest issue in my opinion. The segregated lanes make a place for “us” and a place for “them” and there’s friction when someone infringes on the others territory.

The flip side is I get yelled at to “get in the bike lane” on streets with no bike lane and when I mention that the driver says “get the **** out of the road then”

So at this point the segregated bike lane is better than the lunatic with a 2000 lb vehicle that won’t be ticketed or charged.

I’ve just learned to take that bike lane on 7th st either very slowly—think commuter on a townie bike slow. Or if I’m in a hurry just split lanes down real traffic and haul ass


But back to VC. I’d have to agree that if your customers are coming out of sheer convenience, you’re probably not positioned to last as long as a bike shop like box dog that has a lot of community engagement and backing

[Mark McM]

Advocates of cyclist segregation who are honest would have to admit that segregated lanes don't make cycling safer, they just make novice cyclists (who are mainly afraid of getting hit from behind) less fearful. This, they would argue, increases the number of cyclists, which makes everyone safer, due to the "safety in numbers" effect. However, I'd argue that "safety in numbers" is for the most part a myth, although cycling advocates treat it as unshakable dogma.

As I understand it, in places like the Netherlands, segregated paths really do make cycling safer. But there, they've set aside the space and designed their infrastructure so the paths truly are segregated, intersecting with roadways very little. In the US, the public ways aren't really set up to be able to completely segregate cycling paths, and there isn't the public/political will to completely redesign the infrastructure to be able to do so. So we're left with this compromise solution, where the cycling paths are only partially segregated, perhaps creating a situation that is the worst of both worlds.

I agree with segregated paths in general, but I'm not happy with the mono-buttocked solutions we often end up with in the US.

[ibis]

1390 market.
I go to the post office a lot. Also the city attorneys office is there and I go fairly often

Ha. I always looked for the owner when I was out getting coffee (I used to work a block away). I might have hovered over it once or twice. One of the nicest city bikes I've ever seen.

[livesadventure]

I pass VC almost daily, but not a single person I ride with goes that as far I as I know.

While I understand their concern for their business, this outcry leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me unlikely to set foot in there or recommend it. How can you support a bike shop that only goes so far as merely selling the bicycles, instead of working to ensure their customer’s experience on bikes.

They are fighting a lost cause, infrastructure is changing. They’d be better if strategizing ways to support this sort of measure as a means to bring in new business. A celebration of a new safe4 passage on Valencia St could bring new people in through their doors. A salesman that walks your bike to your car parked a few blocks away and helps you safely load it. I know a few shops are playing around with pickup and delivery of bikes that need service via ebike...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fiamme red]

Maybe one day the segregated lane on Valencia St will be as much a cyclist's paradise as those in Valencia, Spain. :rolleyes:

https://vimeo.com/34508274

[jtakeda]

Maybe one day the segregated lane on Valencia St will be as much a cyclist's paradise as those in Valencia, Spain. :rolleyes:

https://vimeo.com/34508274

What do you mean one day? It’s like that now

[zetroc]

Box Dog is better in many ways, and has been since they opened.

[FlashUNC]

my paranoia is amplified by the four chop shops in spitting distance of where i'm sitting. sigh.

also, this demands pics of said landshark.

You should see his other bikes. He does not kid around.

[jtakeda]

Ha. I always looked for the owner when I was out getting coffee (I used to work a block away). I might have hovered over it once or twice. One of the nicest city bikes I've ever seen.

It was kind of an accident. It didn’t have the original fork so I rode it as kind of a beater and then I cracked the headtube so I got it repaired and it was definitely a beater and then I found a matching fork and it’s kind of nice now but it’s always been identified as a beater.

I don’t like riding a crappy bike if I’m gonna be on 40 hours a week

But this is all off topic.

The negative publicity VC is getting over this statement from the owner might be worse than losing the parking spots.

[gemship]

I have friends that expect to find street parking spots in Manhattan when they drive into the city.
I tell them next time I come down I want to bring our piano and have the city provide a place for me to store it while we visit.
To me it's simple: Your car, your private object. Why should the city or town provide you with "free" storage for your private possessions?
There are Manhattan studio apartments that are barely bigger than a parking spot and they sure aren't free.

I don't know but what's so free about car ownership when one has to pay excise tax yet our nation's infrastructure is still crumbling. Surely this tax lends a bit of slack when it comes to parking on a street's shoulder to do some business downtown?

OTOH who needs a stupid LBS anyways when bicycles are as simple as the wagon wheel and one can order their bikes, repair tools and parts online. LBS BE DAMMED YEEHAA!

[gemship]

All I’m trying to say is if having customers park at your business is paramount to you business staying open then you should have a parking lot.

Why does every other bike shop in sf have no parking lot and still manage to stay open?

Huckleberry? Warm planet? Box dog?

Customers are primarily city folk who probably don't drive or think driving a couple city blocks for no parking a nuisance. So that sounds sensible for me.

Note to myself, most of the folks on here are probably living in some heavily congested city where main st. is the main event and real estate is heavily valued in terms that there really isn't any to spare. That dump known as NYC comes to mind.

[gemship]

We have a similar situation in my small town of 13000. There is an initiative to do a makeover of the small, downtown area and one of the elements is removing some parking and installing segregated bike lanes. The businesses that are there and various town residents are crying about the lost parking. Realistically, there is enough parking in the area, you may just have to walk a few hundred yards. Horrors. It really is a battle. The redesign was passed by town meeting awhile ago, and a special vote was just held (unprecedented) to vote on it again.

As an aside, the proposed design of the bike lanes is being panned by cycling advocates. Our local advocate, Ed Harrow (some Boston locals know him), has written number of letters explaining why the current design is unsafe. Of course, his views fall on deaf ears. I find it amazing how things such as bike lanes are designed by people that will never use them.

This has been talked about as you probably know right on this forum. I live in Gloucester, Ma. and we have a few bike lanes beside shoulders of road with parking spaces. So those bike lanes pushed like a decade or so ago by the cycling advocates around here kinda got what they wanted but no way was the city gonna lose those long standing parking spaces. I can recall many a times I would ride by parked cars with a fear being "doored". To that effect I think bike lanes are great but only if the parking spaces to the right disappear. Otherwise bike lanes are just a feel good thing waiting to invite an accidental dooring or some other horror story.

[fiamme red]

One of the comments here (https://missionlocal.org/2020/02/10-speeds-11-opinions-valencia-street-bike-lane-advocates-foes-meet-in-the-mission/):

"Actually I bike down Valencia often and don’t feel the need for protected bike lanes. The timing of the lights means that bikes and cars go about the same pace. So if you are a patient and defensive rider, there aren’t that many conflicts with cars, even those turning right in front of you. I think the loss of parking will make it even harder for businesses to survive, and they are what make Valencia feel thriving."

[jtakeda]

One of the comments here (https://missionlocal.org/2020/02/10-speeds-11-opinions-valencia-street-bike-lane-advocates-foes-meet-in-the-mission/):

"Actually I bike down Valencia often and don’t feel the need for protected bike lanes. The timing of the lights means that bikes and cars go about the same pace. So if you are a patient and defensive rider, there aren’t that many conflicts with cars, even those turning right in front of you. I think the loss of parking will make it even harder for businesses to survive, and they are what make Valencia feel thriving."

It’s a different story during rush hour or the weekend when Valencia is a long parking lot for Uber and Lyft.

[gemship]

No vehicle is actually fantastic. You just have to adjust your lifestyle to a different norm. A better one if you ask me (i have a car i just dont use it)

True at that. Nothing quite like having two legs and walking. they even make these two wheeled carts to put things in you need to pull stuff. Relatively simple vehicles that even make a bicycle seemingly complex. The truth is they aren't but the cycling industry has a way of sticking to you with broken spokes, flat tires and rust and corrosion issues. Even bicycles need some kinda attention and you gotta keep em somewhere safe cause god forbid they get stolen.

Oh well, cars don't take well to sitting either so there's that.

[gemship]

It’s a different story during rush hour or the weekend when Valencia is a long parking lot for Uber and Lyft.

I don't doubt it. That's the issue with this conversation. Depending on where one of us lives there perceptions of the issue vary. An example, Uber and Lyft are not even viable businesses where I live. It's not exactly rural but there is great distance between homes, cities, and work places. Most folks own cars and bicycles are largely used as enjoyable sports equipment. To that effect what is the point of this thread where most of the forum members seem to ride out of sport and basically know a thing or two about what it takes to stay on a bicycle?

[jtakeda]

I don't doubt it. That's the issue with this conversation. Depending on where one of us lives there perceptions of the issue vary. An example, Uber and Lyft are not even viable businesses where I live. It's not exactly rural but there is great distance between homes, cities, and work places. Most folks own cars and bicycles are largely used as enjoyable sports equipment. To that effect what is the point of this thread where most of the forum members seem to ride out of sport and basically know a thing or two about what it takes to stay on a bicycle?

Yup. When I see those lanes I try to imagine what types of people it benefits. Look at the researcher at UCSF who was killed on Howard st in a bike lane because someone opened their door, she swerved, and got run over.

This type of reform is designed to benefit that type of rider. Not people like most of us who are jamming down flats at 20mph no problem and bunny hopping obstacles

[jamesdak]

I hear ya. After growing up in the NYC MEtro area, ten years in Washington DC, a short stint in Louisville, I'm done with city life :banana:

https://i.imgur.com/u6y9LVgh.jpg

You are so very, very wise! ;)

[colker]

Normally I ride down 2nd Ave in Manhattan in the bus lane, but I was riding one Sunday a few weeks ago with a novice cyclist, so I took the segregated bike lane instead. Every two blocks we had a conflict with a vehicle turning left across the bike lane. No wonder, because the drivers couldn't see us until they were already in the middle of the intersection, their view being blocked by the row of parked cars "protecting" us. I don't have conflicts with turning vehicles when I'm in the bus lane on the right side of the avenue.

Advocates of cyclist segregation who are honest would have to admit that segregated lanes don't make cycling safer, they just make novice cyclists (who are mainly afraid of getting hit from behind) less fearful. This, they would argue, increases the number of cyclists, which makes everyone safer, due to the "safety in numbers" effect. However, I'd argue that "safety in numbers" is for the most part a myth, although cycling advocates treat it as unshakable dogma.

I feel safer in traffic than on bike lanes. You have people doing all kinds of silly things on bike lanes. On traffic everyone is somehow paying attention and if it´s not too fast i can move along fine w/ cars and buses.

[Seramount]

a popular cycling route near me has just had segregated, siamesed bike lanes installed.

really dislike the change for a variety of reasons.

riding facing on-coming traffic (even with concrete turtle bumps and vertical stakes) is unnerving. have already seen drivers looking at phones contact these separator devices.

motorists backing out of driveways are NOT looking for cyclists coming from a direction that they previously weren't.

and it makes cyclists a 'sub-species.' formerly, we were part of the traffic, now we're just some odd annoyance that interferes with the 'flow' at the most inconvenient times.

[Gummee]

and it makes cyclists a 'sub-species.' formerly, we were part of the traffic, now we're just some odd annoyance that interferes with the 'flow' at the most inconvenient times.

This is primarily what makes me seriously opposed to most bike lanes/MUTs that only go on one side of the roadway.

M

[Blue Jays]

In my experience, bicycle lanes are typically potholed afterthoughts filled with gravel, broken glass, and debris.
In terms of this LBS concern, perhaps many of their clients transport their bicycles via car for repair?

[bward1028]

In terms of this LBS concern, perhaps many of their clients transport their bicycles via car for repair?

https://i0.wp.com/sf.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/02/WalktoValenciaCyclery.png?w=716&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C596px

[Heisenberg]

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1910/44424101284_fd0a6b9445_c.jpg

messlifebestlife!

[torquer]

Exact same thing happening in my home town of Munich. The Fraunhofer Straße got some parking removed and bike lanes created, 95% of the people living there love it, the other 5% make noise. One of them is the owner of a bike store in said road.
In my village, the same merchants who complain the loudest about the dearth of parking will themselves park as close to their businesses as possible. This includes the mechanic at the LBS (except he doesn't complain, and commutes from Jersey, and is a great wrench, so no offense, Bob;))

[Tony Edwards]

It’s a different story during rush hour or the weekend when Valencia is a long parking lot for Uber and Lyft.

Interesting. I lived on 19th and Valencia for about 4 years in the mid-90s and always found it fine to ride down, but the city has changed so much that I imagine my recollection of it is totally different than today's reality. (Not to mention that in those days we paid $1,100/mo for a large (about 1,300 sq ft), lovely apartment with 3 bedrooms and 2 fireplaces. I shudder to think what that would cost now.) I used to go to Valencia Cyclery occasionally for small parts and they were always friendly. In those days it was a very modest neighborhood, so the bikes were generally low- to mid-end. No idea what it's like now.

[jtakeda]

Interesting. I lived on 19th and Valencia for about 4 years in the mid-90s and always found it fine to ride down, but the city has changed so much that I imagine my recollection of it is totally different than today's reality. (Not to mention that in those days we paid $1,100/mo for a large (about 1,300 sq ft), lovely apartment with 3 bedrooms and 2 fireplaces. I shudder to think what that would cost now.) I used to go to Valencia Cyclery occasionally for small parts and they were always friendly. In those days it was a very modest neighborhood, so the bikes were generally low- to mid-end. No idea what it's like now.

Put it this way.. .A 1 bedroom can range from $2500-4200/ mo and there’s a lemonade stand on Valencia and 20th that’s $8 a cup

So things are pretty much the same

[XXtwindad]

Put it this way.. .A 1 bedroom can range from $2500-4200/ mo and there’s a lemonade stand on Valencia and 20th that’s $8 a cup

So things are pretty much the same

Ice is extra.

[Tony Edwards]

Put it this way.. .A 1 bedroom can range from $2500-4200/ mo and there’s a lemonade stand on Valencia and 20th that’s $8 a cup

So things are pretty much the same

Ha! Well at least there are dispensaries now.

[9tubes]

[QUOTE=temeyone
I understand the perspective of the shop owner, but if your clientele isn’t willing to walk a few minutes to your shop, perhaps they aren’t going to be consistent customers regardless.[/QUOTE]


C'mon, you know the typical American. The business revenues of a health club would likely get cut in half if the clientele had to walk two blocks to get to it. We can ridicule the typical American, we can hope the typical American changes attitude, but a business owner has to deal with reality as it is.

[fiamme red]

Bike shop owner supports cyclist segregation after all (or at least pretends to): https://www.valenciacyclery.com/valencia-cyclery-is-in-favor-of-protected-bike-lanes.

To whom it may concern:

My words have been taken out of context in the media.

Valencia Cyclery is for greater safety for cyclists and pedestrians and to suggest otherwise is simply absurd. We are not against a protected bicycle lane down Valencia Street.

We and other businesses of Valencia Street are disappointed not to be included in the selection process. We feel that we have a right to be able to discuss the different options. We will continue to partner with members of the Bike Coalition and the SFMTA to make cycling safer down Valencia Street.

I have reached out to Kimberly Leung of the SFMTA and a few of our neighbors. Three different plans were made for the protected bike lane on the street. The rejected plan for moving the bikes to the center lane seems like a workable compromise for everyone. Delivery trucks, cars turning right, driveways or rideshare vehicles will not jeopardize cyclists. The businesses will have easier and safer access for deliveries. More customer parking will be preserved. We feel that we can convince the other businesses to accept it as the best option.

This is a sincere attempt to have a protected bike lane everyone can support. Please help us make that a reality.

In any case, Valencia Cyclery will welcome any bike lane improvements made on Valencia Street.

Thank you.

Paul Olszewski

Owner

[XXtwindad]

Bike shop owner supports cyclist segregation after all (or at least pretends to): https://www.valenciacyclery.com/valencia-cyclery-is-in-favor-of-protected-bike-lanes.

I wonder what prompted his change of heart ? :)

[fiamme red]

I wonder what prompted his change of heart ? :)I suppose that it's the venom poured forth on social media by angry, self-righteous "cycling advocates" (most of whom have never even entered the shop), who are calling for a boycott.

[XXtwindad]

I suppose that it's the venom poured forth on social media by angry, self-righteous "cycling advocates" (most of whom have never even entered the shop), who are calling for a boycott.

You might have a point. The "Social Media Mob Mentality" is scary.

[FlashUNC]

He wrote a stupid letter and said many, many dumb things. It wasn't taken out of context by the media. This wasn't a pull-quote devoid of context. And instead of just an apology for, at best, a sloppily worded letter that poorly explained his point, he decides to point the finger at the press. That dog don't hunt.

Good luck with the business, but the public stances have only been confusing on top of confusing.