ot: is it too controversial to discuss Daytona crash?

[eddief]

car racing definitely sometimes exciting to watch. just once in a while for me. i always wanted Danica to kick ass otherwise never really cared and still don't. all the hand wringing over the latest crash seems sort of misguided. of course i want the injured driver to get well, but what does anyone expect when cars are going 200 miles an hour right next to and on top of each other. i guess the potential for mayhem is all part of sport?

[Ozz]

NASCAR looks boring and easy (going in a oval, only turning left....) but the crashes yesterday show how quickly things go wrong at those speeds. Everything is fine until his rear end is nudged about 6" sideways...

[Mr. Pink]

Who in their right mind decided that alienating over half the country this year was a bright idea? That sport is having its problems over the last decade, and they do that? Stupid marketing.

[Clancy]

Particularly in this case where “pushing” is a legal part of the racing.

I also wish the driver a full and healthy recovery.

But this “sport” seems to be a gloried destruction derby, specifically designed to cause crashes. I’ve never watched a NASCAR race but decided to watch the Daytona 500 yesterday out of curiosity and boredom. It did nothing to alleviate the boredom although I did get a good nap in.

I actually had to Google “pushing” to better understand it. I don’t get it. With that said, I can only imagine the comments NASCAR fans might make after watching a transition stage of the Tour.

Each to their own.

[Blue Jays]

Professional motorcyclists and race car drivers possess athleticism.
Participating and (potentially winning) a race takes remarkable skill.
Wishing speedy and complete healing to the drivers in that crash.

[unterhausen]

IIRC, they have eliminated pushing in some races by making it illegal to put structure in the frames that allows it. I think that might actually be more dangerous at Daytona. I used to watch a lot of NASCAR. I wanted to watch yesterday, but it slipped my mind. It's like any other kind of racing, it's boring if you don't care. The drivers don't like restrictor plate races like Daytona, but I find it fascinating. Actually getting to the front at the end seems impossible. It's like a bunch sprint in cycling only a lot more drivers could win given the right strategy.

I don't think many fans like the crashes, especially "the big one" like always happens at a restrictor plate race. Takes too long to clean up and your favorite driver will probably be affected.

There was one year where the fastest way around the track was to get two well-matched cars to go around together. Now that was boring.

[coreyaugustus]

Who in their right mind decided that alienating over half the country this year was a bright idea? That sport is having its problems over the last decade, and they do that? Stupid marketing.

I watched for the first time this weekend. Rather, I watched until a drizzle happened and they stopped the race, at which point I decided it's a silly, pointless event.

That being said, not sure what you mean that half the country was alienated by anything that happened. Everything seemed par for the course for a NASCAR event: Jesus, the troops, 'Merica, and a giant trailer park riot in the infield. I would imagine anyone who doesn't get down with that was watching much as one watches a train wreck.

I did feel sorry for the guys with beer sponsors. Here you have the drivers who have Coke/Pepsi/Monster embroidered on their fire suits having a nice (mandatory) sip as they're being interviewed. However the Busch/Bud/etc fellas don't have anything to drink. :(

Can't wait for F1 to return.

[buddybikes]

I went to nascar website - and the crashes were the multiple videos shown, so gladiator sport it sure is.

[rnhood]

Daytona needs to get rid of the banking so the restrictor plates can go, then the racing would be much better. They could also host other formula type car races with the flatter track. But they can not escape their legacy, thus they will not take those backs out. The best Nascar races are now on the shorter venues, such as 1.5 mi tracks (restrictor places not required).

In addition, the complicated point system and protocol make it difficult to understand. And with the current commercialization of Nascar racing, where single owners own 5 to 7 cars, it's just not the race it used to be when drivers with their family and friends built their cars in their garages.

[Bruce K]

Not a fan of the Stage system NASCAR implemented

At this point they may want to try to eliminate bump drafting as that seems to be the trigger for the big wrecks.

I can say from first hand experience at Pocono and Watkins Glen in sports/formula cars that bump/push drafting is a definite speed advantage over just sitting in the air pocket. If you watched carefully, some of the biggest breakaways happened when two cars got together and pushed.

The bottom line is that misjudging the closing speed in the draft is easier to do than you would think and as has been said, it only takes s slight touch in the wrong way at almost 200 mph to cause major disaster

I still prefer sports cars, formula cars, and Indy cars over stock cars but I definitely appreciate the skill set

BK

[bigbill]

I started being a NASCAR fan when I was stationed in South Carolina in the early to mid 90s. I was usually heading home from Greenville/Spartanburg after a Sunday morning crit and I got hooked on listening to the radio broadcasts. I like listening better than watching so as long as Chris Collinsworth and Joe Buck stay out of racing, I'm good. Several of the drivers are cyclists and Jimmy Johnson (not football) is a triathlete. I saw Michael Waltrip on his bike once, he's like 6'5", it was a huge bike.

[tv_vt]

I actually watched about 30 laps yesterday, from end of stage 2 to the wreck with 16 laps to go that took out about 15 cars. It is somewhat akin to watching a sprint stage in a bike race. Lots of riders can win and positioning and using other riders/drivers to your advantage is part of the skill. I don't discount the skill/athleticism of the drivers. Talk about nerves of steel. Yikes.

It's really a wonder more drivers aren't killed in these crashes. Safety features have come a long way.

But the big packs are boring - except for the tension around there being a huge wreck. All it takes is one car getting sideways and that's it.

Like bike racing, hard to get a sense of the speed.

All car racing has gotten somewhat boring. F1 is certainly like that now, with the very limited passing that takes place. Seems like the races are won or lost in the pit stops.

[SoCalSteve]

who in their right mind decided that alienating over half the country this year was a bright idea? That sport is having its problems over the last decade, and they do that? Stupid marketing.

potus?

[azrider]

Who in their right mind decided that alienating over half the country this year was a bright idea? That sport is having its problems over the last decade, and they do that? Stupid marketing.

Hahahahahaha..........this is irony at it's best folks.

Guy starts thread talking about how people are "too sensitive" or "triggered" then two days later posts this because sitting President attended a car race.

Hahahhahaah........

[FlashUNC]

Super speedway stock car racing is the most boring form of automotive racing known to man, when administered by NASCAR.

Between NASCAR's absurd technological approach to the France family being the France family, it's no shock the sport hasn't grown at all in the last decade or so.

[Mr. Pink]

It's actually shrunk, especially after the 08 recession. I guess they're happy with the Yahoo market. But they don't have any money. Reminds me of a thing that happened a long time ago, when the NY Post was trying to sell advertising space to Saks Fifth Avenue, and the comeback in that meeting was, sirs, your readers are my shoplifters.

[el cheapo]

I'm old school and think stock car racing was ruined by Nascar. All the cars are the same except the engines. Who are they trying to kid calling them Camrys or Ford whatever? Look at the races of the 60's and 70's where you could buy the cars they raced at dealerships. As for crashes...isn't that the draw? Most of the highlights televised are the wrecks.

[Mark McM]

I actually had to Google “pushing” to better understand it. I don’t get it. With that said, I can only imagine the comments NASCAR fans might make after watching a transition stage of the Tour.


From what I gather, what we're talking about here is referred to in racing circles as "bumping", not "pushing". "Pushing" is what happens when you draft too close, and the draft causes a loss of down force and traction on the front of your car, reducing your ability to turn; your front wheels are "pushing" in the turns due to the draft.

[FlashUNC]

From what I gather, what we're talking about here is referred to in racing circles as "bumping", not "pushing". "Pushing" is what happens when you draft too close, and the draft causes a loss of down force and traction on the front of your car, reducing your ability to turn; your front wheels are "pushing" in the turns due to the draft.

Not it at all.

Pushing is reducing the downforce at the rear of the front car with the follow car so you're both traveling faster than you would otherwise solo.

Less downforce == more faster, but also squirrelly since you're reducing the downforce on the car.

It's one area where I'll give NASCAR drivers credit, their ability to manage already a pretty small amount of downforce and try to eek out every aero advantage is pretty incredible car handling.

Here's a sample of some two car push testing from a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7yZAE_0Vo

[bthomas515]

Watching a nascar race live with the pit headphones is actually fascinating. A race can be won and lost in a fraction of a second.

[unterhausen]

NASCAR isn't just not growing, they are bleeding fans at a rate that doesn't seem sustainable. I think Daytona has half the seating it did 10 years ago, and I wonder if they filled it. When POTUS took off, I guess fans might have left the stands due to rain, but there were a lot of empty seats

It's back to where you need an extended basic cable subscription to see many of the races.

[Doug Fattic]

I am never interested in anything about NASCAR except Ryan Newman the guy that crashed yesterday is a local boy from South Bend, Indiana. As I understand it he is one of the few drivers that has graduated from college. He got his degree in engineering from Purdue (located in Indiana) known for it engineering department. The crash just added to his troubles because a few days before he and his attractive wife Krissie separated after being married a long time.

[bthornt]

NASCAR isn't the only form of racing with issues. At least there's constant passing and position shuffling in a NASCAR race. Look at Formula (or Boremula) 1, it's almost always Hamilton as the victor nowadays, just like Vettel before him, just like Schumacher before him, and so on. The worst formula 1 race is Monte Carlo, where earning pole position is equivalent to winning the race. And what about sports car/endurance racing? Look at the stands during the Rolex 24 or Sebring, two of the most historic sports car races. Tons of empty seats. And what about Indy car, or whatever it's being called now.

I think the bottom line is that all forms of motorsport are of declining interest to most people in the US.

[mistermo]

NASCAR isn't the only form of racing with issues. At least there's constant passing and position shuffling in a NASCAR race. Look at Formula (or Boremula) 1, it's almost always Hamilton as the victor nowadays, just like Vettel before him, just like Schumacher before him, and so on. The worst formula 1 race is Monte Carlo, where earning poll position is equivalent to winning the race. And what about sports car/endurance racing? Look at the stands during the Rolex 24 or Sebring, two of the most historic sports car races. Tons of empty seats. And what about Indy car, or whatever it's being called now.

I think the bottom line is that all forms of motorsport are of declining interest to most people in the US.

Fully Agreed. I think Formula E is now the only series where true automotive development is still occurring. Last century was the heyday of ICE development in Indycar and F1. No more. Now it's e-vehicles turn.

[Mr. Pink]

NASCAR isn't the only form of racing with issues. At least there's constant passing and position shuffling in a NASCAR race. Look at Formula (or Boremula) 1, it's almost always Hamilton as the victor nowadays, just like Vettel before him, just like Schumacher before him, and so on. The worst formula 1 race is Monte Carlo, where earning poll position is equivalent to winning the race. And what about sports car/endurance racing? Look at the stands during the Rolex 24 or Sebring, two of the most historic sports car races. Tons of empty seats. And what about Indy car, or whatever it's being called now.

I think the bottom line is that all forms of motorsport are of declining interest to most people in the US.

Yeah, used to be a huge fan in the sixties and seventies, almost all forms of the sport. Back then you could walk through the paddock at the Glen and practically steal a wrench, you were so close. Not any more. But, admittably, the sport is much much safer these days.

[gemship]

I never watch Nascar but I did enjoy watching that accident if you could call it that on the morning news. It amazes me that the tech on all levels is good enough to survive that.

Is this too controversial a topic? I don't know depends on this forum's amount of censorship. I do believe the sport is deceptive much like pro football. To me they both have in common a wicked lot of money poured into an elaborate twist on some kinda gladiator like events that take place, read carnage into that. They also contribute if not at least celebrate man's carbon footprint on this earth which indeed maybe the elephant in the room. To that end I believe these pro sports, participation there of can be a test of morality and or good sense even as a paying spectator.

[BdaGhisallo]

Fully Agreed. I think Formula E is now the only series where true automotive development is still occurring. Last century was the heyday of ICE development in Indycar and F1. No more. Now it's e-vehicles turn.

Modern F1 hybrid power units are marvels of engineering, achieving almost unfathomable levels of efficiency for ICEs. It's unbelievable that F1 has never marketed touted this fact.

[tomato coupe]

Modern F1 hybrid power units are marvels of engineering, achieving almost unfathomable levels of efficiency for ICEs. It's unbelievable that F1 has never marketed touted this fact.

I think the last thing auto racing wants is to have is a discussion about fuel efficiency.

[BobO]

Hoping that Ryan recovers completely.

NASCAR has an issue that they're going to have to deal with because of this crash. It has exposed a weakness in the safety design of the roll cage. The upper portion of the cage called the halo, and most likely the main bar that is just behind the driver, both deformed with the impact of the car while it was inverted. Along with that the entire chassis appears to have bent in the middle of the drivers compartment. The driver is fixed in position, both body and head by the seat that is attached to the lower portions of the cage and the main hoop. From the pictures available, the roll bar structure may have come in contact with his helmet. I certainly hope I am wrong about this. But that doesn't change the fact that NASCAR dictates chassis specifications to the teams, this design belongs to them and it did fail quite badly. Hopefully this lights a fire under them to make an improvement.

[josephr]

It's actually shrunk, especially after the 08 recession. I guess they're happy with the Yahoo market. But they don't have any money. Reminds me of a thing that happened a long time ago, when the NY Post was trying to sell advertising space to Saks Fifth Avenue, and the comeback in that meeting was, sirs, your readers are my shoplifters.

hahaha:) exactly...NASCAR is certainly getting lost in the market for entertainment and you can only find the big money sports on broadcast TV these days...sports on TV is dying just like shopping malls and movie theaters, theme parks, bowling alleys...I really miss the days when you could randomly kick on the TV and catch NHRA drag racing or down-hill skiiing Howard Cosell and ABC's Wide World of Sports. :banana:

[Bruce K]

Latest news has Newman awake and speaking with medical staff and visitors.

THAT is good news

BK

[Hellgate]

^^^That, is awesome news!

[Red Tornado]

Glad Ryan Newman is awake and communicating. Always pulled for him being both from the state of Indiana and a Purdue grad.

Liked NASCAR in the 80's/early 90's, but I agree the sport has lost its luster. There are many other forms of auto racing to enjoy, my fav being sprint cars. Used to help a co-workers son for a few years before I became very immersed in cycling. It's an excellent spectator sport. Heat races, C-main, B-main and the feature. Some organizations (World of Outlaws) do time trials as well.
Except for a handful of special races, most features are 40 laps or less typically on 1/2 mile or shorter tracks. Heats are usually 8-10 laps. Admission price is a helluva lot cheaper than other forms of racing as well.

Put a 900 horse motor (410 c.i.) in a car with ~90" wheelbase where the complete car with driver weighs around 1400 pounds and cut 'em loose on a dirt track. Pretty fun to watch. Also have classes for racers on a budget, 360 and 305 c.i. sprint cars.

They run sprint cars on pavement too, similar formats to dirt, and on usually 1 mile or shorter. Not quite as crazy as the dirt cars, but still much more entertainment that watching guys play follow-the -leader.

[Plum Hill]

Ryan Newman is one of the guys that made the step up from running open wheel cars on dirt and pavement. I first saw him run in USAC in ‘96.

Accident was most unfortunate, as the car took a direct hit in the driver’s side while upside down. No safety design can consider something like that happening. About the only way to avoid that would be to have the driver in the center of the car, something tough to do with a driveshaft running down the middle, and accessing seat through a door in the roof.

A good number drivers (NASCAR, Indy Car, and sports cars) are also into cycling and triathlons. Carl Edwards used to ride from Columbia, Mo. to the race at Gateway in Madison, Il. (St. Louis metro area).

French driver Bob Wollek always cycled between the track and his hotel accommodations. He was hit from behind and killed at Sebring doing just that.

[cmg]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/os-sp-daytona-500-mike-bianchi-0218-20200218-nlxrefwjhjgqtejk7ob6mqrnxy-story.html

Just google the crash that killed Dale Earhart Sr. for comparison. No neck brace required, adopted after.

[mistermo]

A good number drivers (NASCAR, Indy Car, and sports cars) are also into cycling and triathlons. Carl Edwards used to ride from Columbia, Mo. to the race at Gateway in Madison, Il. (St. Louis metro area).



Indy 500 winner Tony Kanaan is a badass on the bike. Zipp, based here in Indianapolis, has him on their Trek/Zipp master's team. But he's not permitted to ride per his contract, during race season.

https://www.zipp.com/media/images/IMG_4886.width-800.jpg

[azrider]

Jimmie is big time cyclists.........even did promo for their electric bikes

Trek Super Commuter: https://youtu.be/qlPaWg1yHnM

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eur7VK56cK8/maxresdefault.jpg

[BobO]

Accident was most unfortunate, as the car took a direct hit in the driver’s side while upside down. No safety design can consider something like that happening. About the only way to avoid that would be to have the driver in the center of the car, something tough to do with a driveshaft running down the middle, and accessing seat through a door in the roof.

I don't believe that's the case.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pF3--1uWDmk/UgzplLus9LI/AAAAAAAAFXE/uh39BqrOhkA/s1600/Chassis+1.jpg

There isn't much in the way of triangulation (none) of the halo in the orientation that it was hit. When that bar buckles inward it pulls the main bar with it causing it to act out of plane so that it in turn can buckle.

It's going to be fairly simple to provide a good deal more strength for this exact kind of hit. As I understand it, the rationale for the large openings in the cage roof is that the seat can be removed with the driver still in it in the cases of spinal injury. Given that we've seen this incident, I'm not sure that rationale holds up any more.

[tomato coupe]

Indy 500 winner Tony Kanaan is a badass on the bike ... but he's not permitted to ride per his contract, during race season.
Because it's too dangerous?

[rounder]

I watched the whole race this weekend. On Sunday with the rain delays and showing the same laps over and over. I thought it was just a long boring parade and the race was almost over, for as long as it seemed to take. On Monday, with all of the remaining laps it looked more like a typical Daytona 500. Then with a few laps to go there was the inevitable multicar car crash and I thought it at least no one was hurt. Then, on the last lap, with Ryan Newman in the lead, he was bumped into the wall and spinning end over end, when someone hit him dead on at 190. That seemed to me pathetic and unnecessary and I feared for his life. I woke up this morning thinking, if he is dead I am never watching another car race. Thank god he is still alive.

[glepore]

Latest news has Newman awake and speaking with medical staff and visitors.

THAT is good news

BK

Yes it is. But keep in mind that Robert Wickens was talking on the scene but still isn't walking. In addition to almost losing Dad, his kids are dealing with mom and dad blowing up, announced days before. The ultimate irony is that Newman has been the safety voice in the drivers meetings for years.

I'm a huge car guy... and I've seen too much of this, from Ronnie dying on Mario's best day, to Greg Moore, to Ayrton.

The form of racing going on Sunday/monday needs to stop. Pushing each other at 200 mph in non downforce cars leads to disaster. Either make it competitive again ie no spec cars or make them race on rovals.

I'm done with crashcar until they fix it. I love the Glen, but won't watch if they wanna kill these guys the rest of the year.

[steelbikerider]

Long time racing fan of all types. The best way to see a race is in person. A race can be a sensory overload with the sights, sounds, smells and more. TV does a lot to take away the sensation of a car's speed just like it does in a bike race. Think of the superspeedway races as a big and fast crit, different leaders all the time, action throughout with crashes, breakaways and pit strategies and a wild sprint to the finish.

As a teenager before races were concerned about spectator safety, I would stand less than 10 feet away from the fence at Texas World Speedway so I could feel the indy cars go by at 200+. I would see the car in the corner almost 1/2 mile away. Next thing would a explosion of sound and air as the car went by - awesome to experience.

[BdaGhisallo]

I think the last thing auto racing wants is to have is a discussion about fuel efficiency.

I don't disagree but in an age when you have green activists shouting that auto racing is something that is unnecessary and should be shut down, having a series that is pushing the envelope and developing the power unit to previously unseen levels of utility, is a nice counter.

I would think that marketing this aspect would be geared more to Govts and regulators than those watching the races to allow the sport some breathing room. Maybe it goes on behind closed doors at levels us mere mortals don't see, but some public effort would be nice too.

[zap]

having a series that is pushing the envelope and developing the power unit to previously unseen levels of utility, is a nice counter.

Mercedes F1 power unit has pushed past 50% thermal efficiency. But the costs are such that I don't think any road vehicle other than hyper cars will use this sort of power unit in it's entirety. Plus manufacturers are spending billions on electric vehicles, etc.

Last F1 race I attended was the Montreal GP during the early 80's turbo era. We were right there for the standing start..........sensory overload. Later we walked around the circuit and security back in the day was.....non existent. We stood with photographers at turns with nothing to protect us but a short guardrail.

[FlashUNC]

Because it's too dangerous?

Pro contracts can have all sorts of riders and prohibitions. I remember when Monta Ellis broke his ankle playing for the Warriors in an offseason scooter accident, there was quite a bit of discussion from Ellis' camp and the team about whether it was a moped or not as they were considering whether to void Ellis' contract. Mopeds were not barred under his contract, but scooters were.

Turned out it was a scooter.

[bicycletricycle]

I have no problem with people voluntarily doing dangerous things and I think that we like to see people on the edge of human possibility.

Like that Alex Honnold kid. It is exciting because of the risk and if he falls and dies I will not feel bad for him or guilty for enjoying his pursuit of excellence.

NASCAR in general is a little boring for me but my preferred motorsport (F1) can be pretty boring as well. Especially to the non super fan. I suspect that NASCAR is more interesting when you know all the inside baseball.

I hope that driver recovers and comes back and finds success.

[eddief]

and having your husband/dad doing that for a living. glorious when you are alive, not so when you are dead or maimed. the choices we make.

[redir]

Never was a NASCAR fan or any motor sport racing really but those drivers have baws of steel to be doing 200+ miles per hour in a mad dash to finish. I can't believe anyone could survive a crash like that and it was amazing how the guy who hit him from behind held it together.

[mistermo]

Because it's too dangerous?

Yes. Opportunities for crash on bike, broken bones, what have you, could scuttle his Indycar season. Sponsors and commitments would not be happy.

[jamesdak]

Well I'll be "that guy". The best thing about watching NASCAR is the wrecks ! Yeah I said it. I honestly don't want to see anyone hurt but the wrecks are totally cool to see! Drivers know and accept the risks just like I did all the times I ran autocross (so not dangerous) or even the time spent running at Summit Point. Off the track at turn 10 a few times from going in too aggressive.

I also loved watching the NFL when it was real football and players could actually hit each other. But then I grew up playing tackle football without any gear to include travelling all over in my H.S. years for pickup games. Loved the contact, and the pain. Always went into it know that things could go wrong and sometimes they did.

Oh and I also used to ride in the back of a pickup as a kid...... :banana::banana:

[unterhausen]

All I have ever really liked was the short track races, and then they managed to ruin Bristol. So now only Martinsville is left. I still think I want to go there for a race. Closer than Bristol anyway. I have heard the local NASCAR races in the lower categories are a lot of fun.

We drove past Pocono this year. I was at a fan's house and he said he stopped going to Pocono when it took 5 hours to get to the interstate. The track is just a few miles off the interstate, so it's hard to understand how that could be. Sorta killed any desire I had of going there. Plus, the cup races almost always end up being fuel economy races, which I find boring

[jamesdak]

All I have ever really liked was the short track races, and then they managed to ruin Bristol. So now only Martinsville is left. I still think I want to go there for a race. Closer than Bristol anyway. I have heard the local NASCAR races in the lower categories are a lot of fun.



When I lived up the road from Gettysburg I'd go watch the dirt track racing at Trail-Way Speedway. Very informal and quite entertaining.

[BobO]

"The veteran driver is fully alert and walking around Halifax Medical Center. True to his jovial nature, he has also been joking with staff, friends and family while spending time playing with his two daughters," the statement said.

https://www.wesh.com/article/ryan-newman-condition-great-improvement-daytona-500-crash/30999018#

Phew!

[azrider]

https://www.wesh.com/article/ryan-newman-condition-great-improvement-daytona-500-crash/30999018#

Phew!

Phew is right......glad he's able to take this picture

[tomato coupe]

Yes. Opportunities for crash on bike, broken bones, what have you, could scuttle his Indycar season. Sponsors and commitments would not be happy.
Kind of ironic, considering the high risk of his profession.

[Bruce K]

And he has been released from the hospital.

NASCAR has come a long way with safety

BK

[unterhausen]

people say the car of tomorrow ruined cup racing, and they may be right. But the whole reason is the previous cars weren't very safe. Go watch the Waltrip crash at Brisol. People joke about it because he lived, but look at the car and try to figure out how that is possible
https://youtu.be/uzxcuV5rmA4

His brother ran out of the announcing booth and down to the car because he thought he was dead. And there were fairly regular deaths after that, not so much any more. It's hard to draw a comparison, but the cars hold up in a crash.

[Red Tornado]

When I lived up the road from Gettysburg I'd go watch the dirt track racing at Trail-Way Speedway. Very informal and quite entertaining.

I've heard that dirt track racing overall, but especially the sprint cars, are beginning to increase in popularity. I can believe it. For me, much more entertaining than NASCAR and a lot more affordable.

[Matthew]

I enjoy watching the races. Now, I may not sit down for 4 hours to do so but I do tune in when I can. I also enjoy Indy, Outlaws, NHRA, etc. Seen the Outlaws live as well as the U.S. Nationals in Indy. Pretty darn cool, especially live. Glad to see he is out already. Amazing considering the violence of that crash. And less than a couple days later. Wonder how soon he'll get back in the car?

[redir]

people say the car of tomorrow ruined cup racing, and they may be right. But the whole reason is the previous cars weren't very safe. Go watch the Waltrip crash at Brisol. People joke about it because he lived, but look at the car and try to figure out how that is possible
https://youtu.be/uzxcuV5rmA4

His brother ran out of the announcing booth and down to the car because he thought he was dead. And there were fairly regular deaths after that, not so much any more. It's hard to draw a comparison, but the cars hold up in a crash.

Cripes that was unbelievable. Considering that Dale was essentially killed that way, a head on collision, it's amazing that guy was in such good shape. He found the weakest part of that wall system and Bang, what luck. I hope they improved the walls after that because that's pretty ridiculous. IF it was straight through concrete wall that would have been nothing but a bump and a slide.

[Bruce K]

If I was a betting man, I would say he won’t drive Las Vegas (next race), but maybe the one after a f the doctors clear him.

These guys are race car drivers. It’s in their blood, it’s what they do.

BK

[buddybikes]

He had a bad week, wife announced separation few days earlier: https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/nascars-ryan-newman-wife-announced-202438213.html


Phew is right......glad he's able to take this picture

[oldpotatoe]

and having your husband/dad doing that for a living. glorious when you are alive, not so when you are dead or maimed. the choices we make.

Indeed but you can ‘what if’ your way out of anything, even doing those things that you love.
“Pay yer money, take yer chances”...you can get maimed or killed driving to work, even on a bike.:eek:

[BobO]

people say the car of tomorrow ruined cup racing, and they may be right. But the whole reason is the previous cars weren't very safe. Go watch the Waltrip crash at Brisol. People joke about it because he lived, but look at the car and try to figure out how that is possible
https://youtu.be/uzxcuV5rmA4

There are a couple of things I'd like to note before we say that the prior cars weren't very safe. The first is that Michael's Bristol crash was in 1990, there were massive safety innovations that took place between then and 2007 when the COT was introduced. Also, that car went from 100+MPH to zero in "right effing now" due to a flawed track design that has since been corrected. The deceleration and structural loads in the chassis had to be absolutely astounding. In actuality, it's likely that the car coming apart as it did saved his life by dissipating energy. That and a lot of luck. There were many horrific crashes between 1900 and 2007 that the driver's simply walked away from. Teams began to use some very talented engineers and the growing technologies of digital prototyping and FEA. So, the COT didn't magically take NASCAR from bad cars to the miracle life saver, there was an evolution.

The next thing, and somebody noted Dale Earnhardt, is that the vast majority of the serious injuries / fatalities in NASCAR weren't really the failures of the chassis. In DE's case there were multiple failings stemming mostly from his own trust in substandard personal safety gear. i.e. open face helmet, archaic seat with little head restraint, a personal and un-approved means of mounting the safety harnesses, and the lack of a HANS device. That last item is a big one in the entire racing world. After DE's death nearly everybody recognized that basal skull fractures had become the primary cause of deaths in racecars.

All of that being said, is the COT generation safer,... probably. There are a myriad of factors that come into play but the evolution of the car due to further input didn't stop. Moving the driver more inboard and raising the height of the greenhouse are certainly good moves for driver safety. I know that they've altered small areas of gusseting in the last 13 years due to safety concerns. I hope, and given their track record, I expect that NASCAR will mandate some added bracing to the halo area because of this incident. Most racers are good at learning from failures.

[Bruce K]

I believe NASCAR is moving towards a monocoque driver protection cell as part of a new design chassis coming in the near future

BK

[BobO]

I believe NASCAR is moving towards a monocoque driver protection cell as part of a new design chassis coming in the near future

BK

The seat itself has more or less become that. That item is probably the largest innovation of the last 10 years. I remember when there was a rash of broken femurs and I think it was Randy LaJoie who came up with the seat extension that solved the issue. The seats used to end mid-thigh.

[Hellgate]

I believe NASCAR is moving towards a monocoque driver protection cell as part of a new design chassis coming in the near future



BKThe entire frame of the car is one big roll cage. As mentioned, the seat, Hans Device, etc add the the overall safety. It's night and day from the '70's and '80's stock cars. While the racing is like watching paint dry, the tech is pretty cool.

[oldpotatoe]

The entire frame of the car is one big roll cage. As mentioned, the seat, Hans Device, etc add the the overall safety. It's night and day from the '70's and '80's stock cars. While the racing is like watching paint dry, the tech is pretty cool.

Agree. I get a kick out of the 'fans' goin' nutz and devolving into shouting and pushing and punching matches---'chevy! vs ford! vs mopar! and even vs toyota!!(huh?)..pushing matches in the infield as the race goes straight/turn left/go straight/turn left. The ONLY thing chevyfordmopartoyota is the emblem on the hood and the place the sponsorhip $ comes from. :)

[cfox]

Agree. I get a kick out of the 'fans' goin' nutz and devolving into shouting and pushing and punching matches---'chevy! vs ford! vs mopar! and even vs toyota!!(huh?)..pushing matches in the infield as the race goes straight/turn left/go straight/turn left. The ONLY thing chevyfordmopartoyota is the emblem on the hood and the place the sponsorhip $ comes from. :)

Only thing? How about the engine? Chevy, Ford, and Toyota provide their own engine blocks, heads, and intake manifolds to the various NASCAR engine builders. It's not just hood ornaments that differentiate the cars. There are big performance differences between the engines; Toyota won 19 races last year, Chevy won 7. Chevrolet teams have known for 3 seasons now that they are underpowered. Looks like the have made up some ground for 2020.

[jamesdak]

Only thing? How about the engine? Chevy, Ford, and Toyota provide their own engine blocks, heads, and intake manifolds to the various NASCAR engine builders. It's not just hood ornaments that differentiate the cars. There are big performance differences between the engines; Toyota won 19 races last year, Chevy won 7. Chevrolet teams have known for 3 seasons now that they are underpowered. Looks like the have made up some ground for 2020.

Yeah, but it's still a big joke. Toyota is now racing the "Supra" The real Supra is powered by BMW's last remaining Inline 6 cylinder engine. What's the Nascar Supra running?? :rolleyes:

I won't even go into the fact the real Supra is really just a BMW Z4 with the engine detuned a bit....

Nothing Toyota there at all, LOL!

[zap]

edit

What's the Nascar Supra running?? :rolleyes:

Nothing Toyota there at all, LOL!

Toyota is using a V8 based on their PU truck engine.

Like every racing series there are rules and regulations to follow. Indy car uses one standard chassis...Formula E as well. These are meant to keep costs in check......many times money does buy speed.....Formula 1 for example.

[PacNW2Ford]

edit



Toyota is using a V8 based on their PU truck engine.

Like every racing series there are rules and regulations to follow. Indy car uses one standard chassis...Formula E as well. These are meant to keep costs in check......many times money does buy speed.....Formula 1 for example.

The NASCAR V-8s are not even close to any production engine, especially Toyota’s as Toyota has never built an OHV pushrod V-8 for a road vehicle. But there’s nothing wrong with this. The NASCAR V-8 is a unique purpose-built racing engine that can rev to 10,000 RPM and last for 500 miles. Not at the same time, the restrictor plate motors don’t rev as high. Their blocks are cast in the same foundries as Formula 1 blocks and the metallurgy in their valve springs is cutting edge. F1 engines used air springs and likely still do. People like to mock throttle body fuel injection and such, but they are still highly engineered motors. It will be interesting to see what the new engine regulations bring as far as architecture and power. I would like to see how Daytona would drive with say 18 degrees of banking and unrestricted say, 550 hp engines.

[RKW]

Moderately relavant anecdote.

I used to work as an engineer for a LMP2 manufacturer.

For ****s and giggles at a Daytona test, we had the engine manufacturer's rep load the non-Homologated high-boost tune, which is what lots of the rich-guys that buy LMP2 cars run when they show up to a track day.

We ripped the tire off the bead with the lateral g going through Nascar 4. With banking. And a cubic ****load of downforce.

Call NASCAR what you will, but don't belittle the engineering. If the same incident happened in any other form of motorsports, we would be commenting about watching someone die on live TV. FIA Sportscars (FIA GT3, GTE, what have you) are not homologated for a secondary impact, much less one like what we witnessed on Monday.

[Hellgate]

The only NASCAR races I enjoy are the road courses. I find it highly entertaining watching those big pig cars, and turn left racers try to make it through a proper chicane.

[Bruce K]

A lot of those NASCAR boys are highly underrated as drivers due to the “they only turn left” mentality. Those that have tried endurance racing and Indy car have proven to be quite proficient behind the wheel of any race car.

I believe the road circuit cup cars (they are very different from speedway and short track versions) match lap times with other “touring cars” like Trans-Am so not exactly”big pigs”.

I forget which cup driver spent the off season racing in Australia and Asia but he did quite well.

BK

[BobO]

A lot of those NASCAR boys are highly underrated as drivers due to the “they only turn left” mentality. Those that have tried endurance racing and Indy car have proven to be quite proficient behind the wheel of any race car.

I believe the road circuit cup cars (they are very different from speedway and short track versions) match lap times with other “touring cars” like Trans-Am so not exactly”big pigs”.

I forget which cup driver spent the off season racing in Australia and Asia but he did quite well.

BK

All of the circle track cup drivers started doing serious road course training many years ago. Every year there were a number guys at Bondurant brushing up on their skills. Grip is grip, it's teaching the nuances of road course that they need help with. Driving near the limit while conserving equipment is a nearly universal skill that all top level drivers have to only slightly varying degrees. Anyway, most of those cup guys are actually very fast on road courses.

It used to be that a cup car was substantially slower than an A-Sedan around a place like Sears Point. The TA cars would hand them their ass every time, hell American Iron cars would often be more than a match. There used to be tales of Griggs' Old Blue Fox Body whipping the lap times of those big budget teams. The issue was the weight, with the cup car around 3600# if memory serves. The TA cars were going to be 1000# lighter. That's a pretty big deal on a road course where transient handling is at a premium and whoa-ing that extra weight down adds a lot of distance to the braking zones. No amount of big-budget engine programs can make up for that.

I honestly don't know if that's the case anymore. I'm pretty sure they're running watts links in the rear now, and the brakes are substantially better than they used to be. I think they're still running truck arms even on the road courses, which is a major disadvantage in the braking zones due to their propensity to wheel hop. Though I imagine they've managed to mitigate it some with their advanced level shock valving.

Was it Boris who went to Australia?

[Bruce K]

It was one of the current guys just this past season. They made a big deal about it on the ore-race but I forget who.

Boris Said used to coach the cup guys for road racing. He and a few other Trans-Am guys would occasionally do guest drives at the road courses until the regulars figured out how to go fast on road circuits.

BK

[chuckroast]

I believe Kyle Larson did some midget racing down under in the off season, are you thinking of that?

[oldpotatoe]

Only thing? How about the engine? Chevy, Ford, and Toyota provide their own engine blocks, heads, and intake manifolds to the various NASCAR engine builders. It's not just hood ornaments that differentiate the cars. There are big performance differences between the engines; Toyota won 19 races last year, Chevy won 7. Chevrolet teams have known for 3 seasons now that they are underpowered. Looks like the have made up some ground for 2020.

MY point is that these engines are hand made to NASCAR specs(how many push rod V8s does Toyota put in their cars/SUVs/Trucks?)..They 'might start with a block and stuff from the 'manufacturer but any similarity between these engines and what's in yer Silverado, doesn't exist.
Engine displacement is much the same. The only difference between a Ford and a Chevy at the top levels in NASCAR is the engine and the 'skin' on the car. The current Chevrolet engine in NASCAR shares no parts with a production Chevrolet engine. ... Most fans don't realize how much the same all the cars are.
The Toyota V8 is an overhead cam (OHC) engine, like practically all other engines today

NASCAR-National Association of STOCK CAR Racing..uh, really?..Hasn't been for a while.

[glepore]

I don't question the drivers ability, the tech in the car, or the teams engineering.
The problem is that the cars are too equal, so you end up with two cars as a single aero unit being more efficient than one on the speedways. It is a guarantee of a major wreck, given that a slight off center push does what we see happen annually at Daytona Taladega and Charlotte.
The powers that be need to find a solution to this. Introduce a chicane or use the infield road course. No one thinks the infield at Daytona is particularly challenging during the 24, but it keeps most of the cars on the terra firma.

[unterhausen]

They did manage to turn it into IROC, for the most part.

[Mr. Pink]

Hard to judge now, in this day and age when drivers are locked in to mostly one form of racing by contract, but, in olden times, when drivers were drivers (heh), I can't think of any Nascar, or stock car driver who was successful in any other type of racing they attempted, but Indy and sports car drivers used to drop into Daytona or some other fast track and walk away with the prize. It's why I respect Andretti more than most, he's the only driver to win Daytona, Indy 500, and F1 championship. Pretty remarkable, and he killed it in Sprint cars, and, if it wasn't for a stupid mistake at Lemans while he was leading, he'd have that trophy, too.

[unterhausen]

There was a show on amazon about someone moving up to F1. They were showing him on a bicycle, riding at 400 watts.

Not sure he ended up doing that well as a driver, but his cycling was pretty impressive

[GregL]

It's why I respect Andretti more than most, he's the only driver to win Daytona, Indy 500, and F1 championship. Pretty remarkable, and he killed it in Sprint cars, and, if it wasn't for a stupid mistake at Lemans while he was leading, he'd have that trophy, too.
I grew up admiring Andretti, Foyt, Gurney, and Donohue. Racers who could win on nearly any kind of track or car. I love this interview with Foyt and Gurney talking about their 1967 LeMans win: https://youtu.be/-TYDoqZVtOs

Greg

[Mr. Pink]

Always loved how Foyt called LeMans "nuthin' but a little old country road" The French weren't happy.

[William]

Always loved how Foyt called LeMans "nuthin' but a little old country road" The French weren't happy.

Seeing as most early NASCAR drivers cut their teeth running shine on "little old country roads" it probably was "nuthin" to them.:)







W.

[Ralph]

The 2021 Cup cars will be a lot more modern, closer to what they sell today. IRS, and different ways to make down force....so air can go under cars again....giving some cooling to cars behind.

Then in 2022....rumor is no more push rod engines. Current push rod engines have evolved so far....they hardly ever blow up anymore...with HP levels between maybe 450 and 900....depending on intake size. Rumor is overhead cam V6's and maybe some hybrid tech like the coming Indy engines. Problem is making that tech last 500-600 miles at max RPM on some of these tracks. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda all make V6 3.5 L 4 valve engines. Rumor is Honda may join. Even Chrysler could build a race engine off their 3.6 V6.

The current push rod engines can run 8000-9000 (or slightly more) RPM's all afternoon long and survive. You can watch them bump off the rev limiter around 9600 on TV. An amazing engineering feat for a big engine....even for old tech.

NASCAR has some amazing new tech based on 1960's tech. Watts link solid rears, with camber and toe adjustment on rear...how do you do that on a solid axle car? They do it.

[unterhausen]

they had to do something. Sounds like some interesting changes. Turning Charlotte into a semi-road course wasn't it, IMHO.



It occurs to me that a supermajority of NASCAR fans probably get to races in pickup trucks. They aren't driving cars any more.

[BobO]

The 2021 Cup cars will be a lot more modern, closer to what they sell today. IRS, and different ways to make down force....so air can go under cars again....giving some cooling to cars behind.

Then in 2022....rumor is no more push rod engines. Current push rod engines have evolved so far....they hardly ever blow up anymore...with HP levels between maybe 450 and 900....depending on intake size. Rumor is overhead cam V6's and maybe some hybrid tech like the coming Indy engines. Problem is making that tech last 500-600 miles at max RPM on some of these tracks. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda all make V6 3.5 L 4 valve engines. Rumor is Honda may join. Even Chrysler could build a race engine off their 3.6 V6.

The current push rod engines can run 8000-9000 (or slightly more) RPM's all afternoon long and survive. You can watch them bump off the rev limiter around 9600 on TV. An amazing engineering feat for a big engine....even for old tech.

For the last twenty or so years I've thought that NASCAR should open up their engine rules. It would be fun to see people running V10s, V12s, V6s, in all kinds of different configurations. The team that figures out how to make their combination go fast enough on a smaller engine to eliminate a few pit stops will be a real wild-card. They might even win some fans back and maybe garner some new ones.

They lost a lot of long time fans, myself included, by turning into little more than a spec racer series. Not only that, but they also prioritized "close finishes" over good strategic racing. It's their sandbox and they can do whatever they like, but to me, modern NASCAR is a big meh. I'll go to my local Saturday night track.

NASCAR has some amazing new tech based on 1960's tech. Watts link solid rears, with camber and toe adjustment on rear...how do you do that on a solid axle car? They do it.

The last I saw, they were using de-cambered rear ends with the tubes coming off the pumpkin at a slight angle. These would be welded in place as a fixed assembly, but, in top level series they can swap and entire rear end in about 15 minutes. These have been around for decades for road race sedans with solid axles, I think they're even being used in LeMons racing now. :p

[glepore]

Semi-spec racing works well in Indycar, where dampers are really all that's left. But they're open wheel so you actually have to pass, can't lean on folks.
When Nascar became spec we started to see the bump drafting and trains.

[GregL]

Semi-spec racing works well in Indycar, where dampers are really all that's left. But they're open wheel so you actually have to pass, can't lean on folks.
When Nascar became spec we started to see the bump drafting and trains.
And that's when I lost all interest in NASCAR. It reminds me too much of the old IMSA Renault Cup series. Bump drafting (or as we called it back then, "French kissing...") was humorous at 70 MPH in a LeCar (Renault 5). It's ridiculous at 200 MPH at Daytona. I'd say bring back the old rivalries of the '70s and '80s, but we don't build enough sedans in this country anymore.

Greg

[BobO]

And that's when I lost all interest in NASCAR. It reminds me too much of the old IMSA Renault Cup series. Bump drafting (or as we called it back then, "French kissing...") was humorous at 70 MPH in a LeCar (Renault 5). It's ridiculous at 200 MPH at Daytona. I'd say bring back the old rivalries of the '70s and '80s, but we don't build enough sedans in this country anymore.

Greg

They could just lose the pretense and start racing modifieds.

[William]

And that's when I lost all interest in NASCAR. It reminds me too much of the old IMSA Renault Cup series. Bump drafting (or as we called it back then, "French kissing...") was humorous at 70 MPH in a LeCar (Renault 5). It's ridiculous at 200 MPH at Daytona. I'd say bring back the old rivalries of the '70s and '80s, but we don't build enough sedans in this country anymore.

Greg


It should reflect what they sell, SUV's turning left at speed. :rolleyes: ;);):)





W.

[Bruce K]

We were bump drafting Formula Vees at Pocono in the late 70s.

Not sure when it started in NASCAR but pretty sure it is nothing new.

LeCars were a hoot. I co-drove one at Lime Rick in a Little LeMans event. All was good until the right rear wheel passed me going through West Bend. Lucky to get it stopped in pretty much one piece.

Then there was the Mark Saviet multiple rolls and flips at the bottom of the downhill entering the front straight. I believe someone counted over 20 revolutions if one type or another.

3 bolt wheels and front wheel drive short wheelbase were not a good combination for road racing.

BK

[GregL]

Then there was the Mark Saviet multiple rolls and flips at the bottom of the downhill entering the front straight. I believe someone counted over 20 revolutions if one type or another.
Yeah, once the square corners were rounded off, they rolled over even easier. Older Honda Civics and VW Rabbits/Golfs had the same affliction. As one of my friends said (as we were pulling him out of an overturned Civic, with no injuries...), "This would be fun if it wasn't so expensive!"

Greg

[BobO]

LeCars were a hoot. I co-drove one at Lime Rick in a Little LeMans event. All was good until the right rear wheel passed me going through West Bend. Lucky to get it stopped in pretty much one piece.

What year was that? I remember as a youngster watching those up there. Late 70s I think.

[Bruce K]

That would be the right time frame.

Somewhere around 79-82 I am thinking.

BK

[BobO]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/racer.com/2020/02/23/newman-recovering-from-head-injury-eager-for-return-says-rfr-boss-steve-newmark/amp/

It appears that Newman suffered a concussion. No indication if there was helmet contact or not, but, at the G loads we're talking about that wouldn't be necessary.

[9tubes]

Then in 2022....rumor is no more push rod engines. .


Yep, soon NASCAR will achieve the technical sophistication of a 1926 Alfa Romeo.

[Plum Hill]

Extraction video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hNTCe5HPju0 .
I give praise to the tow truck driver and the people that rigged the car to turn it over. Extremely smooth.
Rescue tool of choice now appears to be battery powered sawzalls. The hydraulic tools were taken out but never used.
Newman is a big guy. It looked like it was difficult to pull him out. Then again, the way the seats are built there’s not a lot of extra room.

[Mr. Pink]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/racer.com/2020/02/23/newman-recovering-from-head-injury-eager-for-return-says-rfr-boss-steve-newmark/amp/

It appears that Newman suffered a concussion. No indication if there was helmet contact or not, but, at the G loads we're talking about that wouldn't be necessary.

Even though most skiers wear helmets these days, a lot of recent deaths involve head injuries. They arent cure alls.

[Hawker]

I'm an older member here. I didn't read every post in this thread but I've always been a race fan. I grew up listening to the Indy 500 every year on the radio with my dad and just followed racing in general. I've also raced go-karts and drag raced...I just like racing. However I started losing interest in all racing when all the cars were standardized. I used to love and pull for my favorite brand when Indy racing included Fords, Chevys, Turbines, Offenhousers, etc. And when NASCAR were actual Fords, Chevys, Mercurys, Plymouths, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs. In that way you could pull for your favorite driver OR your favorite brand.

Today everyone is driving the same car and while it may be keeping the racing "closer"...I'm not sure it's better? Yes, I know it helps keep costs down but why then...is popularity waning? My .02.

Today I mostly watch motorcycle road racing and I'm just starting to watch bicycle racing again since "The Big Disappointment".

[BobO]

Even though most skiers wear helmets these days, a lot of recent deaths involve head injuries. They arent cure alls.

Even with the best helmets, the brain itself can have an acceleration and deceleration against the inside of the skull. WAG here, but I think that may be what we're looking at. I had heard that several manufacturers were looking into sacrificial helmet liners that could reduce those loads somewhat. Similar to the concept of Bontrager's WaveCel.

As always with engineering, as you improve one aspect of a design you sometimes expose or create another issue to be resolved.