Scandium VS 6069 vanadium-alloyed aluminum

[robt57]

Asked the question in other thread kinda OT.

So asking the masses.

Is 6069 vanadium-alloyed aluminum the new Scandium?

I've had a few Scandium frames, only one seemed special [welded down under Teschner] feel wise. Don't think the Scandium had a lot to do with that.

Having said that, some hydro formed Alloys have been under my legs these past few years, and the process seems to allow some dialing in the ride tuning dept. more-so than pre hydro forming.

Then there is DSW, not ridden one of those.

So, are we seeing Alloy coming back around, Serotta seems to have a 3995.00 Alloy full bike offering up coming. FWIW [6069 vanadium-alloyed aluminum]

I have a Alloy Crockett, and it replaced an alloy Redline CX [too big].

I use bigger tires on these than my road bikes, but not by that much. But 32-5mm tires not feeling what the frame is reporting from the pave/surface so much anyway.

[Mark McM]

I'm not sure this poll makes any sense. As I mentioned in another thread, 6069 isn't a revolutionary material, its more of an evolution to the previously common 6061. While it is newer than 6061, it isn't brand new - its been around for more than 20 years. And its already been used in bikes for a while now. For example, Cannondale started using it in their CAAD frames about 10 years ago. And yes, it's already been used in hydroformed frames for some years as well.

[robt57]

The poll was and after though actually, perhaps it doesn't. But the question I guess I am curious about. Will llook for your posts re:6069, had not seen that. Thanks

Similarly, this is what scandium was, just alloying in a different direction/matrix in 6000 AL.. But then again, the 3.25 and 6/4 alloying of Ti surely can be considered permanent VS Scandium alloying etc. Is Scandium alloyed AL used anymore for bikes even?

I did not know that about Cannondale's frames. Is Cannondale still doing 6069 alloying? I assume they still do Alloy [not a brand I stay up on]

I'm not sure this poll makes any sense. As I mentioned in another thread, 6069 isn't a revolutionary material, its more of an evolution to the previously common 6061. While it is newer than 6061, it isn't brand new - its been around for more than 20 years. And its already been used in bikes for a while now. For example, Cannondale started using it in their CAAD frames about 10 years ago. And yes, it's already been used in hydroformed frames for some years as well.

[robt57]

Mark, not sure how I missed that post [https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2659018&postcount=182] being that is the thread that caused my curiosity.

;)

[Mark McM]

Similarly, this is what scandium was, just alloying in a different direction/matrix in 6000 AL.. But then again, the 3.25 and 6/4 alloying of Ti surely can be considered permanent VS Scandium alloying etc. Is Scandium alloyed AL used anymore for bikes even?

I did not know that about Cannondale's frames. Is Cannondale still doing 6069 alloying? I assume they still do Alloy [not a brand I stay up on]

Scandium is an expensive alloying element. I suppose that the reason that the name "Scandium" was played up so much in the marketing literature was to justify the higher cost of these bikes (kind of like how titanium bikes with 6/4 tubing were priced higher than bikes with 3/2.5 tubing). Once the novelty wore off, and it became apparent that Scandium aluminum added no particular value to frames, Scandium alloy faded away (just like 6/4 titanium tubing for frames).

According Cannondale's literature, 6069 is currently being used in their 'Smartform C1 Premium' bikes, including the CAAD12 and the Slate. GT and others are also using 6069 aluminum in their frames.

[sonicCows]

Some manufacturers are using 7046 and Mg alloys now. I wonder how those compare to 6061.
My Sc frame in Easton Ultralite from 2000 is still holding up nicely. With tubeless 28c tires I have no complaints.

[rustychisel]

Scandium is an expensive alloying element. I suppose that the reason that the name "Scandium" was played up so much in the marketing literature was to justify the higher cost of these bikes (kind of like how titanium bikes with 6/4 tubing were priced higher than bikes with 3/2.5 tubing). Once the novelty wore off, and it became apparent that Scandium aluminum added no particular value to frames, Scandium alloy faded away (just like 6/4 titanium tubing for frames).

This isn't entirely accurate.

Once carbon bikes were established in the market, were being commonly manufactured in Taiwan, thence China, the demand for aluminium bikes dipped and many manufacturers ended their production.

Carbon frames became more common, and the race to make a lighter carbon bike was on. A Scandium frame was able to weld up into a sub 1200g frameset, very light, but durable. You may recall that other lightweight tubesets (eg Starship) suffered very badly from breakage, but in that battle, once a good carbon frameset was available as a reliable lightweight the jig was up.

Easton stopped making Scandium tubing (used by Merckx and Teschner, among many, but I name them because they worked with Easton to design the best tubesets).

[robertbb]

Interesting topic (to me) - I'm a huge fan of alumin(i)um bikes for many reasons.

I think there's a lot of confusion out there about the various alloys, caused by a need/desire by manufacturers to differentiate.

No different really to the plethora of "codenames" companies dream up for various, pretty standard, modulus/grades of carbon fibre: OCLV 100, 200, etc. FACT 9, 10, 11, etc. HI-MOD, blah blah.

Anyway.

6061 aluminium is your most common and frankly, it's excellent. Typically it's heat-treated to a "T6" temper which artificially "ages" the metal (making it stiffer/stronger). It's been around a long time, can now be formed into all kinds of shapes using fluid and mechanical forming as well as single, double, triple butting. It's like T-700 carbon... perfectly adequate and only ever as good as the design and production that goes into frames built using it.

Giant adds a little extra copper into it's 6011 "SL" stuff. My gravel bike (a cross city from 2012 with v-brakes) is made of this stuff and it's an absolute joy to ride.

Merida (on par with Giant really, just not as well marketed) makes a souped-up 6066 aluminium. Interestingly, Merida owns a 49% sake in Specialized which explains it's lack of presence in the USA... it's by design. Merida undoubtedly make the alumin(i)um Specialized Allez DSW which gets rave reviews everywhere. They also make for other brands I'm sure.

Personally, I wouldn't buy into the claims that a tiny bit of added scandium, copper, "unobtanium" makes a huge difference. Look at the tube shapes, consider the butting used, inspect the welds... that's where the differences are. :)

[oldpotatoe]

Calling an aluminum frame with some scandium dirt' in it, 'Scandium' is like calling a steel frame with vanadium in it 'a 'Vanadium' frameset..or a 3Al/2.5V TI frameset with Al and V in it, an 'aluminum' frameset..I still see lots of aluminum 'stuff' with Sc in it called 'scandium'...marketing:)

[colker]

Calling an aluminum frame with some scandium dirt' in it, 'Scandium' is like calling a steel frame with vanadium in it 'a 'Vanadium' frameset..or a 3Al/2.5V TI frameset with Al and V in it, an 'aluminum' frameset..I still see lots of aluminum 'stuff' with Sc in it called 'scandium'...marketing:)

I have once witnessed a shop employee selling a cheap steel titec stem as titanium because it had a greyish color. He didn´t alter the price, just called it titanium. He probably didn´t even know the difference. It was a nice stem.