Italian team manager orders his riders to race without power meters

[fiamme red]

This news is over three weeks old, but I just read it now, and I don't think it has been posted here yet.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/scinto-orders-vini-zabu-ktm-to-race-without-power-heart-rate-meters/

"The riders are obsessed with watts. They allow themselves to be influenced too much by it. During training it's good to use a power meter but not in a race. I want my riders to think freely again," Scinto said.

"I don't want to lead robots, but riders who listen to their bodies and can control themselves. I know that there will be some dissatisfaction in the beginning, and there has already been one. But our leader [Giovanni] Visconti immediately agreed with me. We are heading this way with conviction."

[FlashUNC]

He should be fired as a manager if he's going to engage in lunacy like this.

Whether you agree with his stance or not, to unilaterally place his team at a disadvantage that literally every other team is using is the height of stupidity.

[dbnm]

He should remove two way radios as well. (seriously)

[bikinchris]

I have seen riders tell themselves they can't do something in the race because their heartrate monitor and now their power meter tells them they are going over their limit.
In a race situation, you either do it or die. Push yourself WAY beyond your limits.

[prototoast]

I doubt this will be an effective strategy, but I don't think the premise is necessarily flawed. Power meters are a tool, and if you believe your team is using that tool incorrectly, it may be better in the short term to take that tool away. In the long term, it would be better to learn to use it effectively, but that can take, and maybe the biggest race of the year (Giro) isn't the time for the team to learn.

[zmalwo]

Information is the key to victory. The more you know the more advantage you have over your opponents. It's always like that. There can never be too much info only not enough.

[colker]

Information is the key to victory. The more you know the more advantage you have over your opponents. It's always like that. There can never be too much info only not enough.

Untill attitude matters more.

[uber]

Data is worthless without accurate interpretation. It sounds like the management is convinced that it's use is not optimizing their tram's performance and it is in fact hurting it. A very bold move that will be applauded if successful and ridiculed if it fails.

[Peter P.]

Untill attitude matters more.

Excellent response.

[Tandem Rider]

I agree with the coach's thinking. The same thing can happen with any data collecting device. Back in the '80s the team I rode for would have a group ride once a week, it always turned into a slugfest. One of the gals on the team would usually go top 15 at Nationals, so she was strong, could rotate through until it got serious, always rolled out the back when it hit 30mph. She says to me "when you guys go, please make it a clean break, don't ramp it up". I reached over, unsnapped her computer and put it in my jersey pocket, told her I would put it back on after the ride was over. She stuck. It's too easy to let the numbers tell you "too hard".:)

[ultraman6970]

I agree with the coach. Attitude in a race can be shut because of the numbers.

[bthomas515]

I read an article years ago [during the early Cavendish era] about riders crossing over disciplines. It mentioned how track riders typically cross over quicker because they're [hypothetically] more attuned with their bodies and rely upon feel more than data.

[weisan]

https://i1.wp.com/krazytech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Humanoid-Robot-seminar-topic.jpg?fit=1024%2C492&ssl=1&resize=1280%2C720.

[laupsi]

Outside of doing a TT or long climb I would think these riders wouldn’t be paying too much attention to power readings. Most data is analyzed afterwards, no? Something must be radically wrong w/how these riders are performing to institute such a policy. Unless of course the director is attempting to make a specific point.

[Black Dog]

From a fan's perspective, and this should matter 100% since fans are the target audience, race radios (beyond safety updates) and power meters should not be allowed during races. These things have turned racing into outdoor zwift.

[FlashUNC]

From a fan's perspective, and this should matter 100% since fans are the target audience, race radios (beyond safety updates) and power meters should not be allowed during races. These things have turned racing into outdoor zwift.

Nonsense. Was Van Der Poel's win at Amstel Gold outdoor Zwift?


And if the team isn't using power meters properly, then that's also on the manager. No two ways about it, this jabroni should be looking for a job.

[weiwentg]

From the perspective of a coach, I'd think you would want your athletes' PM data from their races. Unless, of course, this team isn't bothering with a coach at all.

[Johnnysmooth]

Outside of doing a TT or long climb I would think these riders wouldn’t be paying too much attention to power readings. Most data is analyzed afterwards, no?

Ever see Fromme race - he is wedded to his "Precious"

This may be a brilliant move by coach. He's not against meters for training but in heat of race. Having raced with and without meters, I can attest to it - numbers mean little. The desire to win wins races.

[laupsi]

Ever see Fromme race - he is wedded to his "Precious"

This may be a brilliant move by coach. He's not against meters for training but in heat of race. Having raced with and without meters, I can attest to it - numbers mean little. The desire to win wins races.

I’m not at all convinced that Froome is looking specifically at power numbers simply due to his head angle. I’ve always thought it’s just his juxtaposition when he’s super focused. I do something similar while knocking out intervals on my trainer. My PM readings are there, but I’m not focused on them.

[ojingoh]

disagree, respectfully. He's mentioned before he gets fixated on his power output during races.

I got into power meters cuz partially because I was terribad at climbing, and power meters really really helped me out here.

I can only assume he relies on Power data to snap gauge his effort and when to attaquer due to his FTP.

[FriarQuade]

I've spent a lot of time looking through the team car window at a rider who can't stop staring at their power meter. The manager is spot on. Yeah, data is powerful but most people don't know how to use it in mass start racing. The moment it becomes a limitation it's doing more harm than good and it should be abandoned.

[Ti Designs]

Information is the key to victory. The more you know the more advantage you have over your opponents. It's always like that. There can never be too much info only not enough.

Understanding information and knowing how to use it is the key to intelligent training which can get you to victory. Information by itself yields clueless athletes who make poor decisions.

[Heisenberg]

I've spent a lot of time looking through the team car window at a rider who can't stop staring at their power meter. The manager is spot on. Yeah, data is powerful but most people don't know how to use it in mass start racing. The moment it becomes a limitation it's doing more harm than good and it should be abandoned.

this...

recording the data out of sight? rad.

constantly visible? usually bad.

i've set some of my best power #s in races when i had my wattage taped over. it's a mind**** sometimes. you look down and think "good god i can't do this!"

mental motivation and the punches of a bike race are really hard to distill into instantly-available (and objective) information on a screen that can be turned into immediate action. there are so many inputs and outputs going on that are outside of the control out of a standard training/interval session, and to try to calculate those while you're on the limit, trying to strategize, and drive your bike? eh, have you met most bike riders? it's so much easier to just look at the 3s/60s average and go "OH GOD I DON'T KNOW". which is really the end.

powermeters are very effective training tools, and very effective race analysis tools - after the fact.
...

as one who usually rails against old-school-euro BS in racing, this tack has significant validity.

[Wakatel_Luum]

Untill attitude matters more.

Agree...

Stephen Roche knew he was in a bad way already prior to chasing down Delgado on La Plange in the 87 TDF...he used his intelligence in a difficult situation rather than relying solely on data...

[Lionel]

I am in the camp of no power meter and no radio.

[laupsi]

disagree, respectfully. He's mentioned before he gets fixated on his power output during races.

I can only assume he relies on Power data to snap gauge his effort and when to attaquer due to his FTP.

I just don't understand, not that I don't believe this, just baffles my mind. I've spent quite a few years training and racing w/a PM; I'm no pro. from my experience I pretty much know what zone I'm in w/out having to look at numbers. when I am pressing hard, for longer durations, I simply cannot focus if my thoughts are on something other than the effort, even if that "something" are the power numbers. this is especially true during a race; either you're with or ahead or you're out the back. (as I've stated earlier in this thread, unless TTing or going off on a climb. perhaps a long solo effort would constitute such behavior as well)

[marciero]

Aside from getting a picture of a rider's power signature for analysis or comparison with other race or training data, I'm not convinced power meters do in fact confer an advantage during a race. Just because it sounds plausible that they do-more information is better, right?-does not mean they do. One can imagine scenarios where they might be a detriment, as others have pointed out. On the other hand, since training can never simulate an actual race, knowing how race data may or may not differ from training data for a given rider would be very useful. But to get an unbiased picture you would have to have that information hidden from the rider during the race. That's what this guy should be doing with his team-masking off or hiding the displays. He could still have the benefit of that data via live feed, to use however, as well as post-race.

[redir]

I know from my personal experience as an amateur I only started actually winning races once I got rid of all the electronic gadgets. I can see a PM being useful in a TT so you don't blow up too soon but even then you might rely on it too much and only perform up to it's level rather then your level. I suppose the could mount the meter's on the frame or something so that they can still collect data but the riders wont be syborged.

[oldpotatoe]

Nonsense. Was Van Der Poel's win at Amstel Gold outdoor Zwift?


And if the team isn't using power meters properly, then that's also on the manager. No two ways about it, this jabroni should be looking for a job.

Yee gads....Indurain had a wired Avocet computer on his bike..WITHOUT A WIRE..lots are sportin' one of these for sponsorship $..in the heat of the battle, I wonder how many actually use them, look at them..anyway.

BUT, w/o starting a thread drift to race radios..yup, like to see those go away..make these a jamokes think for themselves a little bit. Would make for better 'entertainment', cuz bike racers ARE, in the entertainment biz...:rolleyes:

[colker]

..cuz bike racers ARE, in the entertainment biz...:rolleyes:

Yes. And italians play the entertainment button w/ bravado, sillynness and whatever gets the ball rolling.

[jr59]

I have no real idea on how good or bad this idea is, or isn’t. What I do know is racing is results oriented. They start having good results and in short order, most teams will follow. If they don’t, this person will be looking for new employment, or change his stance quickly

[seanile]

back in the day when i was rowing, during indoor practices my coach would push our erg's screen down and out of sight. then he'd put us through timed full-pace efforts with only his vocal cues. me and my boatmates often PRed at these practices.
i think it's a wise decision, particularly that he's only removing access to the data during the race, and allowing the usual access during training.

[fiamme red]

Yee gads....Indurain had a wired Avocet computer on his bike..WITHOUT A WIRE..lots are sportin' one of these for sponsorship $..in the heat of the battle, I wonder how many actually use them, look at them..anyway.https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/01/world-tour-2020-pro-riders-power-meters.html

As shown in review after review, the Shimano power meter is simply not accurate. There’s no two ways around it. It’s just not. It’s still not, and it won’t be, due to the way Shimano casts their right-side crank arms in the 8000 & 9100 series. That’s a reality. And yet, the majority of pro peloton are on it for sponsorships.

Heck, we could actually take this a step further and note that the ROTOR 2INpower is also not the most accurate duck either, something teams in the past have noted to me. And then we have the non-active temperature compensation SRM units out there, which by SRM’s own admission desperately need temperate compensation to handle any sort of temp swings (it’ll handle it if you stop and zero offset, which of course no pro rider will do mid-climb)...

[ltwtsculler91]

back in the day when i was rowing, during indoor practices my coach would push our erg's screen down and out of sight. then he'd put us through timed full-pace efforts with only his vocal cues. me and my boatmates often PRed at these practices.
i think it's a wise decision, particularly that he's only removing access to the data during the race, and allowing the usual access during training.

Thanks for stealing my thunder :banana::bike:
-The guy who would PR on all those practices.

But this is really common in other endurance sports to cut out seeing your data when racing and trusting your training to deliver results on race day. If you've been training properly then as an athlete you should be able to understand your limits and can definitely surprise yourself with your performances.

Watching numbers just leads to paint by numbers racing where you look down and see "oh I'm pushing 300w that's my max, I can't possibly make this break" where in actuality without being mentally chained to that number you could push 320w in that same situation.

In college rowing we'd actively take all the data away from our coxswain while racing, and leave it to him and me to drive the pace of the boat based on our racing situation.

I'm surprised another coach hasn't done this before, but as Heisenberg pointed out above, I'm sure plenty of pros are already doing this "manually" by editing or covering their computer screens.

[echappist]

I know from my personal experience as an amateur I only started actually winning races once I got rid of all the electronic gadgets. I can see a PM being useful in a TT so you don't blow up too soon but even then you might rely on it too much and only perform up to it's level rather then your level. I suppose the could mount the meter's on the frame or something so that they can still collect data but the riders wont be syborged.

few issues with that statement:

first is that the same critique could be leveled at pacing based off of any metric, be it RPE, power, HR, or a combination thereof. One could just do a TT based off of whim, but then one may also spectacularly blow up. There's a reason why most will peg efforts based off of something.

second is that I doubt most TTers would actually agree with the statement. The reason why efforts in the initial portions of a TT have to be relatively throttled is because lactate generation build-up isn't linear with effort. 105% may be 10.5% greater than 95%, but the lactate generated is going to be greater than 10.5%. This is why doing a TT with 105% out and 95% back is always going to be much more difficult than doing a TT 95% out and 105% back, because one ends up with more lactate in the former. PM/HR helps to serve that purpose.

third is that when one plans to do 95% on the way out and 105% on the way back (with 100% being what one could reasonably do for the estimated duration), it is descriptive, not prescriptive. That's the first order approximation that may be adjusted up or down depending on how one feels. If one isn't feeling labored, that 95% can always be dialed upward. Similarly, if one is feeling labored, it should be knocked back a few watts. There is nothing inherent in pacing with PM that precludes one from setting a PB on race day.

Lastly, "up to [one's] level" is only going to be 2-3% more than expected. There was a study a few years back where athletes were "tricked" by being told that they were going at a speed ~2-3% lower than what they were capable of sustaining (when in effect they were going at the previous best). The "tricked" athletes were able to squeeze out another 2-3% over the previous best; however, that was the most that was squeezed out, any under-reporting by a larger number did not result in larger improvements. We are all largely governed by physiology, though mental efforts and adrenaline could help a slight bit. But it is slight.

And since we are dealing with personal anecdotes, one of my best TTs was one where I targeted 290-295W out and 310W back, for an overall power of ~300W. I felt really good on the way out, and after three minutes, I upped it to 300W on the way out. At the turnaround, I noticed that my HR and RPE were on par with what I expected from a 290-295W out leg, so on the back leg, I decided to go for 315W and ended up doing 320W for the back leg. Overall power was just about 3% higher than expected. Racing by PM certainly didn't prevent me from setting a PB on that day.

Also, a PM is also quite useful for off-the-front efforts. Though granted, within the pack, I didn't look at it much, and it was an issue of I do whatever is needed to stay in the group, regardless of what the PM reads.