OT: career advancement question/advice

[azrider]

SORRY in advance to all the OT haters............BUT........previous career type questions have always garnered a lot of intelligent discussions/opinions around here so I'm interested to hear what this garners.

I know this is something more relevant for LinkedIn or FB, but posting this in those arenas would certainly raise suspicion which I don't want to attract.

My two questions:

1. With 20 years of professional experience can I get away with 2 page resume or is 1 still the standard

2. Any professional HR or similar know of any good resume writers??

Thanks in advance.

[JAGI410]

I want to say one of our fellow Paceliners is a resume writer. Hopefully that's true and they'll be able to help.

I still prefer to see 1 page resumes from my potential hires, but if a lengthy career/experience can justify it without fluff, go for it. 2 pages of buzzwords is a red flag in my book.

[joosttx]

with 20 years experience networking is your best career advancement tool. Two-page resume is perfectly fine. Writing is important as just getting your spelling is correct and being terse. But again, Networking is your key.

[mtechnica]

We’ve been hiring lately (I work in automation and robotics integration) and I’ve seen a lot of the resumes that have come through. Based on what I’ve seen 1 or 2 pages is fine, as long as it isn’t a complete disaster nobody really cares what it looks like, and it seems to be that people just scan the resume for specific things they’re looking for then maybe take a closer look at it if it seems promising. That is to say, the content and “key words” seem the be the most important part. In my industry skills and experience are the main thing, so obviously if you’re applying for a graphic design position you don’t want to make a basic no frills resume.

[duff_duffy]

2 pages are fine, just know most resume reviewers will decide to interview before they finish reading the first page of the resume. Keep page 1 to recent, relevant, positive experiences that directly relate to the job you are seeking if possible. If you go onto second page, try to fill most of it. Page 2 of resume may come up if you are selected for an interview. If applying to government positions ignore page limits, put ALL relevant experience and then some.

As someone above mentioned, with 20 years experience the majority of your job search should be spent networking. There is a great free online tool that will scan your resume against job you are seeking and rate it - great for seeing how your resume may rank if screened by computer (although usually this will match personal review as well). I’ll post if I can find the link, been a while since I used it to help someone out.

[eddief]

For twenty years you should have two pages. Anymore and it won't get read to the end and any less will not be enough to show how great you truly are.

The basis of the chronological entries should consider the CAR model. What challenge were you faced with, what actions did you take or skills did you use in that challenge, and what was the measurable result.

If you write a killer resume using the model then those CAR statements become the foundation of what should come out of your mouth during an interview.

And yes, as mentioned, networking is the most effective way to get your next job. Not networking to ask if the person has any jobs available, but gathering information (informational interviewing) so you can make an informed decision about what your next job should be in all facets and to introduce you to the marketplace. If you do this, you will be in the right place before the right time.

And then, of course, doing all the internet stuff every other lazier person is doing cuz they hate networking.

[duff_duffy]

This is not site I referred to in my posting but has received good feedback from someone I know in the field...still looking for free version I used before:
https://www.jobscan.co/#

Like it or not, many large companies have computer do the first scan of resumes, tools like this can roll identify where you stand. I recommend working with those within your network to review and tweak the resume but if that is not an option try this.

If you graduated college you may want to touch base with the career center there for help. Some have purchased resources for alum to take advantage of for free.

[azrider]

Great suggestions so far, thanks everyone.

Yes, agreed on networking. In fact, I haven't really "submitted" a resume to a job posting in over 15 yeas as my last three positions have all come from networking or word of mouth.

But the fact remains, even if you're a referral interviewee you STILL have to submit resume and since i've used the same format for 20 years I'm curious if things have changed.

The other thing is I've only worked for 3 companies within those 20 years, but have held multiple......very distinct positions within each. Sometimes that can be difficult to articulate on paper.

Again, thanks for suggestions/opinions. Truly appreciate it.

[FlashUNC]

In my experience these days a chronological resume is less important than one tailored to addressing the requirements of the job you're applying for, and how your experience correlates. So don't need to necessarily think linearly on the resume.

[C40_guy]

SORRY in advance to all the OT haters............BUT........

1. With 20 years of professional experience can I get away with 2 page resume or is 1 still the standard?



Hey, OT is OT, right?

You might want to take another look at your chronology. While I've been working since before the IBM PC or Campagnolo C-Record was introduced, my LinkedIn and resume timelines start in the late '90s.

There's nothing relevant from the early days...they're just too far away. And as someone who *looks* 10-15 years younger than I am, I want to make sure that my resume doesn't yell out "senior citizen."

Seriously.

I've lost jobs because I looked too young (a long time ago) and I know I missed out on one job because I literally had too much experience for the exact role (out of a small handful of people in the world) and the company wanted to groom someone (younger/less experienced/less opinionated/cheaper) to grow into the role.

So I start my timeline mid-career, so to speak. Two pages is fine...just be careful of trying to tell the whole story versus the relevant bits.

[AngryScientist]

what field are you in OP?

[bthornt]

what field are you in OP?

I believe that a resume is usually one page. This is in contrast to a curriculum vitae (CV), which is used in academics, medicine, and science. These can be extremely long, as anyone who has ever served on a search committee for any position in these areas can attest.

[eddief]

fill it up with great stuff and let the reader decide how much they want to read. standard for mature workers is 2 pages.

I believe that a resume is usually one page. This is in contrast to a curriculum vitae (CV), which is used in academics, medicine, and science. These can be extremely long, as anyone who has ever served on a search committee for any position in these areas can attest.

[dsimon]

2 pages thats it my resume is 9 pages.....

[joosttx]

I believe that a resume is usually one page. This is in contrast to a curriculum vitae (CV), which is used in academics, medicine, and science. These can be extremely long, as anyone who has ever served on a search committee for any position in these areas can attest.

Jesus Christ, you are not kidding. I reviewed some scientists who would put every lunchtime seminars they attended in their grad school on their CV. Mind-numbing.

[azrider]

what field are you in OP?

Technology/ Software sales

[C40_guy]

Technology/ Software sales

Be specific with regard to metrics -- quota attained, new logos landed, whatever the key metrics are for your business.

Sales managers don't want to read your life story. They want to see that you have been successful in the past and that you will hit the ground running.

You have one job as a sales person -- to make your manager look good. Much of that involves making your numbers, but there's more... :)

[azrider]

You have one job as a sales person -- to make your manager look good. Much of that involves making your numbers, but there's more... :)

Where were you 15 years ago ;););)

Lots of truth in that statement

[josephr]

1 page resume should be sufficient for most jobs....a second page is if you wanna go chronological and like to fluff it up a bit, but no one is really gonna read the second page. Just like resumes, HR folks toil for hours to write a decent job description and job seekers scan thru it in 20 seconds, maybe will read for a full 60 seconds if it seems like it might be a fit.

Keep it short, simple...put education at the top, go thru work history and each job give 2-3 snippets about what you did there.....half the agency recruiters out there will delete any objective statements and skills sections anyway.

Remember nobody really cares that you introduced barcode scanning to your warehouse in 1994. Employers are looking for folks who get straight to the point without a lot of bureaucratic obstinance.

Networking is your best bet tho...HR is for suckas.

[Clean39T]

You have one job as [literally any position short of CEO] -- to make your [superior] look good in public and to their superiors, and tell them in private how they could look/perform better. Much of that involves being good at what you do - [but you also have to be good at how you do it and be someone who can be trusted to work for the good of the order.]

Generalized it a bit.



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[marciero]

Jesus Christ, you are not kidding. I reviewed some scientists who would put every lunchtime seminars they attended in their grad school on their CV. Mind-numbing.

Anyone can pad their CV-not just academics or scientists- and its usually obvious. But those stand in stark contrast to the ones with forty plus pubs. The "vitae" part of CV is about giving a portrait of ones professional life.

[rwsaunders]

Make sure that your resume is in synch with your LinkedIn profile.

[verbs4us]

Jesus Christ, you are not kidding. I reviewed some scientists who would put every lunchtime seminars they attended in their grad school on their CV. Mind-numbing.

My dad was an editor at The Journal of Irreproducible Results and rather than list papers he authored, he listed papers he read. They accepted his CV.

[NYCfixie]

I have 25+ years in the technology industry and I am "changing careers" to a different specialty within the same industry. Over those 25 years I have had many jobs because I am a "fixer" and move on after 3-5 years when things are working smoothly so my chronological style resume is 3 pages now. I have spoken with headhunters, hiring managers, and friends in the industry and they all say 3 pages is fine for someone with more than 20 years experience and knowing that people do not stay in jobs as long as they did many years ago.

- Update your LinkedIn bio, jobs, certifications, and skills. The bio should be a narrative including highlights of accomplishments.
- The resume should include milestone projects, metrics for sales is that is your thing, metrics for savings on budget or projects completed early if that is your thing, and how many direct reports if appropriate. More items for recent jobs and fewer for much older jobs (i.e. nobody cares that I oversaw an 11 floor 1000 node Ethernet wiring project when I was a Network Manager in 1995).
- Use keywords on your resume and LinkedIn bio but do not go overboard. You need to find the right balance between enough that an automated resume scanner (or bot) will pick up your resume but not too many that it is unreadable (or unbelievable) if a human reads it.
- Tailor cover letters for each job, explain which of your specific skills meets their requirements, and why else you would be a good fit for them (skills and culture).

I too have found most of my jobs over the years through networking rather than sending in a resume "cold" to a company. I have noticed lately that jobs I am interested in on LinkedIn often have more than 300 applicants within 2 days so you need to make yourself standout and find a connection who can help. Unfortunately technology has made the job hunt worse as anyone can apply for a job with 2 clicks of a mouse even if they have no relevant experience or hope of actually getting the job. This has made it more difficult for headhunters and hiring mangers to wade rough the fluff and find the gems (and diamonds in the rough).

Good luck with the search.

[jm714]

How about a cover letter? Is there a way to sync it with the resume so that you get things covered without being redundant and is it needed at all?

[NYCfixie]

How about a cover letter? Is there a way to sync it with the resume so that you get things covered without being redundant and is it needed at all?

I think one needs to tailor each cover letter to the individual job listing.

I have found that many companies use the cover letter for two purposes:
- Did you individualize the cover letter for their job listing because you are actually interested or are you just sending out hundreds of generic resumes and cover letters hoping something will stick no matter what job it is. This helps weed out many applicants.
- Since many people use resume writers and/or tailor their resumes for automated resume scanners, it is not the best way to determine if an applicant is a good writer. Basically, if you cannot even write a simple and coherent cover letter, most HR and hiring mangers will not even bother looking at your resume no matter how good your skills may be. Again, another good way to weed out applicants when companies often get 300+ resumes (and cover letters) for each job listing they post.

[madsciencenow]

I’ve reviewed and hired a number of people and my personal preference is two pages or less for length. I have to confess that I don’t read in detail the entire resume unless I can’t find the specific experience I’m looking for by scanning through the resume. The initial objective the resume accomplishes for me is to help me screen who I want to have a phone interview with and who I’m uninterested in. I typically don’t spend much time on the resume again until an on-site interview occurs. At this point I will dig into specifics that I feel are important to the role I’m hiring for to get a sense of the candidates actual experience and fit.

Beyond qualifications and experience is fit on the team the person is being hired to be on. This ultimately determines who is hired and who isn’t and candidates with a greater emotional intelligence may end up out competing a more qualified candidate, imo.


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[madsciencenow]

I think one needs to tailor each cover letter to the individual job listing.

I have found that many companies use the cover letter for two purposes:
- Did you individualize the cover letter for their job listing because you are actually interested or are you just sending out hundreds of generic resumes and cover letters hoping something will stick no matter what job it is. This helps weed out many applicants.
- Since many people use resume writers and/or tailor their resumes for automated resume scanners, it is not the best way to determine if an applicant is a good writer. Basically, if you cannot even write a simple and coherent cover letter, most HR and hiring mangers will not even bother looking at your resume no matter how good your skills may be. Again, another good way to weed out applicants when companies often get 300+ resumes (and cover letters) for each job listing they post.



I agree that a cover letter that’s not tailored to the position is an instant introduction to my recycle bin. In addition, if you have a summary or objective statement at the top of your resume that’s not applicable to the job you are applying for you also get recycled.


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[azrider]

Just wanted to wrap this up and send genuine thanks to everyone who responded. Lots of great info from you folks (not surprised) and I got a bunch of good takeaways.

Hope y'all have a great 2020:hello:

[OldCrank]

I've got (well) over 20 years in, but headhunters and HR types all say to only include the last 15 years. To avoid age discrimination I guess. But sometimes earlier experience nails some job requirements. So first I tried writing a few resumes, tailored to specific areas. Made me crazy and expanded to more than a few of course.
Then I created a bullet list of those earlier strong items.
Helped a lot, and kept it to two pages.
Yeah, and cover letters and networks.
Nothing stronger than a resume hand-delivered to the hiring manager!