OT: Electric Hummer

[AngryScientist]

What do you guys think about GE re-introducing the hummer as an EV with apparently massive hp and torque?

obviously details are sparse at the moment, including the two all important figures: price and range.... But, pending those details, this could be a really important "turning point" vehicle in the EV class.

First off, they are being made in a US factory, so that's a plus for US workers. Additionally, i think it was smart to leverage the Hummer brand. Tough guys can get behind driving a 1000 HP Hummer, and those who were critical of huge inefficient gas-guzzlers no longer have that touch point.

up to this point, EV's have been mainly passenger vehicles without a whole lot of utility, but the Hummer might change that mold and open up their use to a wider audience. this may pave the way for vehicles moving larger loads over the road, which accounts for a huge portion of road (and fuel) users.

i still dont believe we are there, or close to there for EV's to be practical for the majority of Americans, but we are getting closer.

i firmly believe universal "quick change" battery packs that can be swapped for fresh batts at "fueling" stations is the answer to range anxiety and wider use of EV's.

Of course, the overall grid, and power generation landscape will need additional bolstering, capacity, modernization and flexibility (and reliability!) before mainstream EV use is ready for prime time, but.....baby steps.

anyway, the reality is yet to be seen, but this big boy from GM has the potential to [at least be the predecessor of] a game changer. i hope they dont screw it up, and i wish them success!

https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/FYBThgG5Q6w7pgtJqDBlFl6Gmrw=/1200x675/2020/01/29/fe0e2001-85cc-4d83-9c66-1ddf5480b689/gmc-hummer-ev-ogi.jpg

[tuxbailey]

Like you, I don't know much details, but at least i can say the front end is much more aesthetically pleasing to me than the Tesla truck.

[MattTuck]

I am not an expert, but from the press I've read about EVs it seems like the weak point now is the lithium ion battery chemistry. I am not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this technology when it seems that some other chemistries could be around the corner.

Perhaps they design the vehicles to be chemistry independent, figuring they can just put in a new battery whenever the chemistry goes mainstream.

I have read some other reports that there is the potential for radical improvements in the electric motors as well. Very interesting though.

I am writing a case study right now on GM's retreat from Europe and EV production was one of the things they wanted to invest their proceeds into. If this is partly the fruit of that investment, good for them.

Also, I think you mean GM, not GE :)

[unterhausen]

I wouldn't worry too much about the batteries, as long as the projected lifetime is satisfactory. Toyota warranties the batteries on my Prius Prime for 150000 miles.

[oldpotatoe]

I was yaking with my 8yo grand daughter in the car yesterday..'see that Tesla?', she says... 'have you seen the Tesla CyberTruck(yup, she said this:eek:)'..is it being made?

So..I mention, that when she is her parents age(early 40s)..I say I'll bet most all cars are electric...35 or so years.

Couple of things gotta happen tho.
-Gas has got to get scarce and WAY more expensive.
-'Something' has got to change re-the gas tax..that is going to be diminished A LOT..
-BIG upgrade to electric grid/capacity.
-BIG upgrade in battery tech/range/ease of charging

'Feel good' purchases of EV will continue to be small until an EV is as cheap and 'easy', as a dino-fueled car.

[cmg]

if sales are slow like they were for the Chevy Bolt/Volt they'll cancel the model after a few years. They're not committed to electric. The biggest problem for manufactures is the fewer parts to fail. Designers are working to build in obsolescence and on an electrical with fewer parts that might take time. There's no rubber band timing belt to fail before the last payment. Pretty vehicle though, looks cool. If they sale enough a 3rd part battery supplier will spring up, like car batteries.

[oldpotatoe]

I wouldn't worry too much about the batteries, as long as the projected lifetime is satisfactory. Toyota warranties the batteries on my Prius Prime for 150000 miles.


That's cuz it's a hybrid..all EV much different animal.

[jimcav]

I'm just hoping i can keep working long enough to afford one, and that the gov't spearheads nationwide infrastructure to better support it. I will be in CA for at least 6 more years, and really dislike flying. With relatives in IN and MD, I want to be able to drive there almost as easily as I do now. I saw a Fisker sports car a month ago with a solar roof panel. Maybe that will evolve and be a way to charge while driving. Maybe they will develop a battery standard, like the bike water bottle standard, and you can pull into a place where they pull yours and insert a new. maybe there will be levels of batteries like there are 3 grads of fuel now. once upon a time, the nation, led by the federal gov't, built a network of interstate highways, and all the other support for that sprung up. We just need to do that again, but for EV. I see it as a great opportunity for nicer greener infrastructure and transition into a greener jobs base. I love my truck, but having been a kid in a VW microbus, the upcoming VW temps me more.

[buddybikes]

Sure it still eats a lot of energy, whether electric or gas. So, unless if you have a solar wind farm on your property, electric bill will probably soar.

[tigoat]

My next vehicle purchase will definitely be an EV. My mind is on Tesla's Cybertruck but I don't plan on getting a first gen vehicle, perhaps second or third year after they work out all the bugs. Tesla is leader in battery tech on EV but I hope GM will come up with something. These car big players should have contained Tesla a few years ago but it might not be too late to get into the game.

[Mark McM]

I am not an expert, but from the press I've read about EVs it seems like the weak point now is the lithium ion battery chemistry. I am not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this technology when it seems that some other chemistries could be around the corner.

The "breakthrough in battery technology" to give electric vehicles a similar energy capacity as gasoline cars is just around the corner - and has been for the last 50 years.

The energy density (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) of electrical batteries has increased by nearly a factor of 10 in the last few decades. But energy density of lithium ion batteries is still only about 2% of the energy density of gasoline. Battery energy density have to increase 50 fold to compete with gasoline.


I have read some other reports that there is the potential for radical improvements in the electric motors as well. Very interesting though.

Depending on load, electric motors can be up to 90% efficient. While this can probably be improved somewhat, there is no room for motors to provide a "radical improvement" in electric vehicle efficiency.

[Ozz]

...Couple of things gotta happen tho.
-Gas has got to get scarce and WAY more expensive.
-'Something' has got to change re-the gas tax..that is going to be diminished A LOT..
-BIG upgrade to electric grid/capacity.
-BIG upgrade in battery tech/range/ease of charging

....
State if Washington is already trying to put together a "mileage tax" (based miles driven). We don't have an income tax, so a large chunk of state budget is funded by the one of the highest gas taxes in the country.

I am not opposed to a mileage tax in principle, but they want to put a "device" in your car to measure the miles...basically a GPS tracker....No 'effin way!

I figure you should self report the miles, or maybe go to reporting location (like the old emission testing stations).

The electrical grid capacity and standardized batteries or charging stations are big obstacles, but doable.

Re: The 1000 hp e-Hummer.....can't wait for the outrage over electrical hogs!:cool:

[Black Dog]

The "breakthrough in battery technology" to give electric vehicles a similar energy capacity as gasoline cars is just around the corner - and has been for the last 50 years.

The energy density (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) of electrical batteries has increased by nearly a factor of 10 in the last few decades. But energy density of lithium ion batteries is still only about 2% of the energy density of gasoline. Battery energy density have to increase 50 fold to compete with gasoline.




Depending on load, electric motors can be up to 90% efficient. While this can probably be improved somewhat, there is no room for motors to provide a "radical improvement" in electric vehicle efficiency.

I get the the need for EV. However it is not a real solution outside of local use. Hydrogen as a fuel source is the real future where long range and quick refuelling are needed. It can be produced anywhere and by local renewable energy sources (solar/wind). Uses an internal combustion engine (well developed tech) or fuel cell, and has water as it's only product. EV cars that are charged with electricity produced by coal or natural gas is only pushing the pollution farther away.

[Ti Designs]

I wouldn't worry too much about the batteries, as long as the projected lifetime is satisfactory. Toyota warranties the batteries on my Prius Prime for 150000 miles.


Define "warranties". Data on the Prius says that the batteries cycle down, so gas mileage gets worse over time. Toyota has no program to exchange older batteries for new ones under warranty that I know of...


I had an interesting argument with a Prius owner a while back, he claimed his hybrid was better for the environment (because it's a Prius). I drive a Honda CRX which weighs about half what the Prius weighs and gets better gas mileage. He then said that his car puts out lower emissions (because it's a Prius) so we had that tested. It's damn hard to beat a Honda D16 motor in that category. I then brought up the used battery issue - the average lifespan of a Prius is less than 5 years, those in areas where it gets cold tend to be less. What happens with all the used batteries and dead cars?

My next car will probably be an electric version of the Arial Atom. I mostly use my car to get to work and back (I don't work in a bike friendly environment), so my battery needs are minimal. The plan is to have door sill batteries for short trips, making the car light and quick - my car's real job is to get me to work with a smile on my face... For longer trips I'll have a mid mounted battery, but I hate driving for long periods of time.

My solution to powering cars has always been weight. The only reason cars weigh two tons is because everyone else's car weighs two tons. The way I see it, my bike weighs about 20 pounds, a 1900 pound car with a roll cage and 5 way harness is pretty damn safe by my standards. What we're really fighting here is human nature. If you make something more efficient, people won't take the savings and be happy, they'll want more. Take for example LED lighting, efficiency has gone up 10x over the past 15 years. As a nighttime photographer I can tell you that light pollution has also increased that much. Now GM claims the electric Hummer can go from 0-60 in 3 seconds. See the problem there??? It's only when physics steps in and says we can't do things that people actually take notice (and even then they demand the impossible).

[Ralph]

And.....gasoline sales in USA have been dropping about 1.5% each year for quite a while.....and if you follow futures market on gasoline.....no price increase on gasoline itself in sight. Maybe taxes....but not basic product.

And development on Internal combustion engines continues.....with better and better economy....and some incredible performance. Especially hybrid. (I saw a 1000 HP 2.3 turbo 4 on a Ford engineer site recently.....Indy type engine). And NASCAR is considering hybrid power for it's top level.

I'm considering a plug in hybrid for our next vehicle, but am aware all technology is moving forward. Fuel cell, hydrogen, etc. Tech is moving so fast....think maybe leasing makes sense. Incredible depreciation on some of these obsolete vehicles. Especially something that may or may not be around long like electric Hummer.

[Idris Icabod]

I saw a Fisker sports car a month ago with a solar roof panel. Maybe that will evolve and be a way to charge while driving. .

I don't think solar panels on the vehicle can ever power a car. I believe the Tesla uses a 50 kWh motor but a 1 m sq solar panel will only generate 1 kWh at full efficiency (they are not 100% efficient, maybe the best are 20%ish). Prius had a solar panel at one time but it powered a small circulating fan only.

[alancw3]

I cannot actually fathom that GM. would try to resurrect that name. shame on them. money money money!

[benb]

I think this is more of a stunt vehicle than anything.

SUVs are not really utility, they're image/wastefulness.

Making it a Hummer is trying to sell it a very different way.

Most people are just driving around on pavement with no passengers and no heavy cargo most of the time, regular cars are where the utility is.

Building out the companies infrastructure & ability to build EVs is where the benefits are.

Future battery technologies that are better will still produce a voltage difference and a current. It's not going to be rocket science to change a car over to a better battery as they are developed. This has already happened once, new EVs are using Lithium Ion but the initial Hybrids were not using Lithium Ion.

Same thing with a potential new solar panel technology that becomes useful for EVs. If you're already building EVs that don't have solar panels you're ahead of the companies that are not building EVs.

These vehicles are the future, period. There's a reason Ford & GM stock is in the dumpster and Tesla has a ridiculous valuation. The market is well on the way to accepting EVs as the future even if the public & government still have their heads stuck in the sand.

Regarding electric motors there's still room for improvement. Maybe not a 10x or anything but Tesla introduced a new type of motor in the Model 3 that is now being retrofitted to their older models. They only use it on the AWD models that have two motors. One type of motor is optimized for acceleration and the other is optimized for steady speed. This added a non-trivial amount of extra range, at least 10% IIRC.

They still need to retrofit the improved cooling/battery management from the Model 3 back into the other models as well. And the Porsche Taycan is well ahead of the Tesla in some of it's engineering, the Porsche system runs at a much higher voltage, that is going to flow downstream to the less expensive EVs over time as well. The higher voltage puts less strain on the system, enables faster charging, enables better performance, etc..

It is still early days, and we don't need an order of magnitude improvement on the batteries to end up with an EV that has better range than almost all ICE cars. If we get to 1000 mile range EVs the range anxiety stuff is going to be completely gone since people can't even drive that far in a day most of the time.

[jimcav]

I don't think solar panels on the vehicle can ever power a car. I believe the Tesla uses a 50 kWh motor but a 1 m sq solar panel will only generate 1 kWh at full efficiency (they are not 100% efficient, maybe the best are 20%ish). Prius had a solar panel at one time but it powered a small circulating fan only.

i know multi-junction panels are coming. that is one reason iv'e held off on considering solar (the primary is I'm not sure i want to permanently retire where i am now). that could double or triple current panel efficiency, but if the 1kW per meter sq is current status, that would only be max of 3, maybe good for charging while at work, but not going to extend driving range significantly.

I recently saw the smartflower sun tracking solar station, but it is 27k here in USA and may not generate enough for average american energy use:
https://smartflower.com

[MattTuck]

Depending on load, electric motors can be up to 90% efficient. While this can probably be improved somewhat, there is no room for motors to provide a "radical improvement" in electric vehicle efficiency.

Mark, read this: https://jalopnik.com/a-texas-startup-claims-to-have-made-the-biggest-advance-1837173127


You're in a better position than me to assess whether it is a game changer.


Oh: and PS. The way to drive innovation in this space is through a tax on carbon emissions that internalizes the cost of burning fossil fuels.

[Mark McM]

Future battery technologies that are better will still produce a voltage difference and a current. It's not going to be rocket science to change a car over to a better battery as they are developed. This has already happened once, new EVs are using Lithium Ion but the initial Hybrids were not using Lithium Ion.

....

It is still early days, and we don't need an order of magnitude improvement on the batteries to end up with an EV that has better range than almost all ICE cars. If we get to 1000 mile range EVs the range anxiety stuff is going to be completely gone since people can't even drive that far in a day most of the time.

You're dreaming if you think that battery technology will catch up with combustion engine vehicles. Even after more than hundred years of research and development, batteries still have a fraction of the energy density that the first rudimentary ICE vehicles did. EV cars of today only achieve their ranges by hauling around a huge mass of batteries. For example, a Tesla Model 3 has about the same interior size/load capacity as a Mazda 3. but the Tesla Model 3 weighs 1000 lb. more. That extra 1000 lb is all batteries. And that 1000 lb. of batteries give the Tesla Model 3 only about half the range as the 78 lb. of gasoline in the Mazda 3.

The reasons that batteries will never achieve the energy density of hydrocarbons are due to the basic laws of thermodynamics, plus the basic math of fuel storage. An ICE only has to carry less than 1/3 of the 'fuel' it needs - it gets the extra 2/3 out of the atmosphere (oxygen).

[William]

State if Washington is already trying to put together a "mileage tax" (based miles driven). We don't have an income tax, so a large chunk of state budget is funded by the one of the highest gas taxes in the country.

I am not opposed to a mileage tax in principle, but they want to put a "device" in your car to measure the miles...basically a GPS tracker....No 'effin way!

I figure you should self report the miles, or maybe go to reporting location (like the old emission testing stations).

The electrical grid capacity and standardized batteries or charging stations are big obstacles, but doable.

Re: The 1000 hp e-Hummer.....can't wait for the outrage over electrical hogs!:cool:

Washington State ended emission testing (and the fees that went along with it) this year. Something that was decided years ago and my bet is this is a way to replenish the lost revenue.

Put a tracker in my car? Not going to happen.







W.

[buddybikes]

One more itty bitty problem - driving to a rondo 600miles away - sit at a quick charge for 30 minutes. Perhaps if you are standing in front of a pretty lake at 70 degrees, but 112 or zero you won't be too happy.

Hybrids, and think that they can put better ICE in them, are still the most viable.

[Ozz]

...The reasons that batteries will never achieve the energy density of hydrocarbons are due to the basic laws of thermodynamics, plus the basic math of fuel storage. An ICE only has to carry less than 1/3 of the 'fuel' it needs - it gets the extra 2/3 out of the atmosphere (oxygen).

I think for most trips, you don't need the same energy density. No idea what most people drive, but I have think it is less than 100 miles per day? You just need a battery to last that long, and then be able to charge it overnight.

People seem worried about having a 300 mile range, and being able to"fuel up" on road trips. How many people are doing road trips every week? Maybe a couple times per year? Rent a car with an ICE for those trips. Use the battery car for everyday use.

Like this: http://www.commutercars.com/

Probably will never happen because they look weird.....

[Mark McM]

Mark, read this: https://jalopnik.com/a-texas-startup-claims-to-have-made-the-biggest-advance-1837173127

This article talks about improving motor power/torque output (which means a smaller motor could be used), and there is certainly plenty of room for improvement there. It also talks about increasing usable motor speed range, which perhaps is even more important for electric vehicle usage. But they only say this motor technology may produce up to a 10% increase EV operating range, which I'm not sure would be considered a "radical improvement".

[benb]

You're dreaming if you think that battery technology will catch up with combustion engine vehicles. Even after more than hundred years of research and development, batteries still have a fraction of the energy density that the first rudimentary ICE vehicles did. EV cars of today only achieve their ranges by hauling around a huge mass of batteries. For example, a Tesla Model 3 has about the same interior size/load capacity as a Mazda 3. but the Tesla Model 3 weighs 1000 lb. more. That extra 1000 lb is all batteries. And that 1000 lb. of batteries give the Tesla Model 3 only about half the range as the 78 lb. of gasoline in the Mazda 3.

The reasons that batteries will never achieve the energy density of hydrocarbons are due to the basic laws of thermodynamics, plus the basic math of fuel storage. An ICE only has to carry less than 1/3 of the 'fuel' it needs - it gets the extra 2/3 out of the atmosphere (oxygen).

We have electric cars right now that have range > 300 miles.

Many Many current gasoline cars don't go much further than that.

Making an electric car that hits 600, 800, 1000 miles on a charge does not require battery chemistry that has the same energy density as gasoline because the EVs go 4-5x further on the same energy. If you take the mileage/Kwh for a car like the Model 3 and give it the same energy a car like the Mazda 3 has you'd have an EV with a range in the 1500-2000mi range.

If you want to complain about the weight of batteries in an electric car you could likewise complain that most of the ICE engines have horrible power to weight ratio. EV motors weigh < 100lbs each. A Mazda 3's motor apparently weighs about 300lbs.

[MattTuck]

This article talks about improving motor power/torque output (which means a smaller motor could be used), and there is certainly plenty of room for improvement there. It also talks about increasing usable motor speed range, which perhaps is even more important for electric vehicle usage. But they only say this motor technology may produce up to a 10% increase EV operating range, which I'm not sure would be considered a "radical improvement".

An innovation that improved ICE fuel economy by 10% would probably be hailed as a significant improvement. But point taken, the definition of 'radical' is up for debate. If you can stack 2 or 3 innovations similar to this on top of each other, maybe you get a range increase from 300 to 400 miles for an existing EV.

Still early days, and a lot of investment and human capital is working on this, so I think the chances of big improvements are better than not.

[benb]

Exactly.. just ignoring batteries completely there's still room to improve other areas of EVs. We haven't seen any combine all the best stuff yet.

BMW has the i3 with a Carbon monocoque chassis. But most of their battery/drivetrain isn't that great.

Tesla has good battery/drivetrain but they don't have anything like the i3s chassis.

If you stuck the CF chassis tech on a Tesla how much would that save weight?

My understanding is the electrical architecture of the Porsche wastes less battery energy than anyone else due to heat. Same kind of thing.

ICE cars have improved a lot in the last 50 years without gasoline suddenly storing more energy. EVs can improve even if the battery chemistry continues to stagnate.

One of the Model S variants already does 370 miles. 400 will be here soon.

My ICE car gets 400 miles on a good day. Almost never in the real world. Most of the cars I've owned got 200-300 on a tank of gas in the real world.

[Mark McM]

We have electric cars right now that have range > 300 miles.

Many Many current gasoline cars don't go much further than that.

Making an electric car that hits 600, 800, 1000 miles on a charge does not require battery chemistry that has the same energy density as gasoline.

Sure, it's possible to make an electric car that goes 1000 miles. But the majority of its weight would be batteries, and it would have relatively little payload capacity. And that means that it would have terrible efficiency as well (in terms of payload/energy).

If you were to add an auxiliary fuel tank in the floor of a Mazda 3 (were the Tesla Model 3 has its batteries) that it could hold 100 gallons (600 lb) of fuel, it could drive all the way across the US (and then some) without refueling. But that same weight in batteries would only get the Tesla Model 3 about 150 miles.



If you want to complain about the weight of batteries in an electric car you could likewise complain that most of the ICE engines have horrible power to weight ratio. EV motors weigh < 100lbs each. A Mazda 3's motor apparently weighs about 300lbs.

Yes, ICEs are much heavier than electric motors (for the same power). But the energy storage for ICEs is so much smaller/lighter, that for longer range vehicles, the ICE vehicle is much smaller and lighter. And at some further range, the ICE vehicle also becomes more efficient.

Maybe short-to-mid range will be accepted in automobiles, but not in other forms of transportation. The weight of batteries/hydrocarbons is why you'll never see an battery powered airliner do more than just short hops. You're unlikely to seen them long range trains and ships as well.

[AngryScientist]

the other thing we can't ignore is the maintenance on EV's

no more spark plugs, timing belts, oil/filter changes, rotting exhaust piping/manifolds, etc.

that's worth something, especially in "city cars"

[sitzmark]

Sure, it's possible to make an electric car that goes 1000 miles. But the majority of its weight would be batteries, and it would have relatively little payload capacity. And that means that it would have terrible efficiency as well (in terms of payload/energy).

If you were to add an auxiliary fuel tank in the floor of a Mazda 3 (were the Tesla Model 3 has its batteries) that it could hold 100 gallons (600 lb) of fuel, it could drive all the way across the US (and then some) without refueling. But that same weight in batteries would only get the Tesla Model 3 about 150 miles.


One of the proposals for long-range EV travel is inductive charging roadways powered by solar collectors in or along the road surface. Not economically viable today, but....

[benb]

Sure, it's possible to make an electric car that goes 1000 miles. But the majority of its weight would be batteries, and it would have relatively little payload capacity. And that means that it would have terrible efficiency as well (in terms of payload/energy).

If you were to add an auxiliary fuel tank in the floor of a Mazda 3 (were the Tesla Model 3 has its batteries) that it could hold 100 gallons (600 lb) of fuel, it could drive all the way across the US (and then some) without refueling. But that same weight in batteries would only get the Tesla Model 3 about 150 miles.





Yes, ICEs are much heavier than electric motors (for the same power). But the energy storage for ICEs is so much smaller/lighter, that for longer range vehicles, the ICE vehicle is much smaller and lighter. And at some further range, the ICE vehicle also becomes more efficient.

Maybe short-to-mid range will be accepted in automobiles, but not in other forms of transportation. The weight of batteries/hydrocarbons is why you'll never see an battery powered airliner do more than just short hops. You're unlikely to seen them long range trains and ships as well.

I am not sure why you're so fixated on the Mazda 3, maybe just an example, I am using the Model 3 just cause it's relatively new.

You do realize the "base" Model 3 is only about 250-500lbs heavier than a Mazda 3 tops out at right? I would argue you can only really compare that base model because the more expensive Teslas are much higher performance. (Which sells, but it's a red herring I think.)

Sedan vs Sedan:

Model 3 Curb weight = 3500-4000lbs
Mazda 3 curb weight = 3000-3250lbs

The Model 3s max load is listed as: 900-990lbs.
The Mazda 3s max load is as: 897-1008lbs.

Model 3 passenger volume = 97 cu. ft
Mazda 3 passenger volume = 93 cu. ft

Model 3 trunk/frunk/whatever = 15cu. ft
Mazda 3 trunk = 13 cu. ft

The total weights and sizes here are not that far off. One is hauling around battery and one is hauling around a whole bunch of ICE gear, and neither one can carry much more weight.

My main point is just that Model 3 or similar car today burns 25-29kwH/100 miles. That factor can improve independently of batteries.

They don't even optimize the car for a maximum range version. If they did they'd ship a model with 2 less powerful motors (the two motor setup is more efficient) and the largest available battery. They don't do that, they build one with maximum performance + largest battery.

Airplanes and giant ships are a whole different thing. There are other possible solutions to those problems that have nothing to do with the efficiency of airplanes or ships.

[Mark McM]

Not economically viable today, but....

Not today .. or ever.

The cost of installation and maintenance of such a system is tremendous, not to mention that inductive charging itself has efficiency losses. under ideal circumstances, efficiency is usually under 90%, on a moving vehicle traveling over charging coils it is apt to be far less than this.

[buddybikes]

Not today .. or ever.

The cost of installation and maintenance of such a system is tremendous, not to mention that inductive charging itself has efficiency losses. under ideal circumstances, efficiency is usually under 90%, on a moving vehicle traveling over charging coils it is apt to be far less than this.

And what are the human physical risks?

[sitzmark]

Not today .. or ever.

The cost of installation and maintenance of such a system is tremendous, not to mention that inductive charging itself has efficiency losses. under ideal circumstances, efficiency is usually under 90%, on a moving vehicle traveling over charging coils it is apt to be far less than this.

Apparently China has a working section a little longer than 0.5 mile, but I hear ya about a nationwide network. Will have to see how the Jinan experiment plays out.

[Mark McM]

I am not sure why you're so fixated on the Mazda 3, maybe just an example, I am using the Model 3 just cause it's relatively new.

I picked the Tesla Model 3 because it is the most popular EV sold today. The Mazda 3 just because it is a similar in both size and name.

In any case, the claim was that improvements in battery technology will soon make batteries competitive with hydrocarbon fuels. But the physics state that they never will be. Sure, maybe battery powered cars may become "good enough" for what people expect, but they will never get close to the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels.

Mind you, I do believe that electric cars will be the way of the future. But I don't think they will be battery powered.

[Drmojo]

One of the proposals for long-range EV travel is inductive charging roadways powered by solar collectors in or along the road surface. Not economically viable today, but....
in Singapore for E buses my neighbor was involved in the technology
dump yr peak oil stocks folks
join the 21st Century y’all!!!!

[Louis]

There isn't much doubt in my mind that battery-powered cars are nothing but a passing phase. The future's in hydrogen. We'll see if they're internal combustion or fuel cell, but in the long run I bet we'll be driving H cars. (Or they'll be driving us - but that's even farther in the future.)

http://sites.psu.edu/rclbhat/wp-content/uploads/sites/5619/2014/03/Hydrogen-Cars.jpeg

[smontanaro]

I am not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this technology when it seems that some other chemistries could be around the corner.

I see this "around the corner" meme so often, I have to wonder if maybe it's been planted by the fossil fuel industry to slow adoption of electric vehicles.

[oldpotatoe]

I cannot actually fathom that GM. would try to resurrect that name. shame on them. money money money!

???? What do you think GM and all other car companies(or companies in general) are around for? Welcome to capitalism...been around for a 'while'...Expecting any company to be altruistic is a fairy tale.

[Likes2ridefar]

Another people killer for the roads. Hooray.

My next not car was recently a surly midnight special. I ride it to and from work for 80 minutes a day on a beautiful multi use path mostly through parks. On the weekends I ride it for pleasure and to the farmers market for groceries.

My daughter rides on the back of a bike extension from my wife’s bike to school each day and then my wife pedals down a bike path to her school where she teaches. After finishing she rides and picks our daughter up from school and rides through parks to where we live (on the edge of the park)

We purposely planned where we lived after identifying the access it had to food and school and work on traffic isolated multi use paths.

[jamesdak]

The Hummer belongs with the Pontiac Azteck and AMC Pacer as some of the ugliest cars to hit the road.

[pasadena]

Exactly.. just ignoring batteries completely there's still room to improve other areas of EVs. We haven't seen any combine all the best stuff yet.

BMW has the i3 with a Carbon monocoque chassis. But most of their battery/drivetrain isn't that great.

Tesla has good battery/drivetrain but they don't have anything like the i3s chassis.

If you stuck the CF chassis tech on a Tesla how much would that save weight?

My understanding is the electrical architecture of the Porsche wastes less battery energy than anyone else due to heat. Same kind of thing.

ICE cars have improved a lot in the last 50 years without gasoline suddenly storing more energy. EVs can improve even if the battery chemistry continues to stagnate.

One of the Model S variants already does 370 miles. 400 will be here soon.

My ICE car gets 400 miles on a good day. Almost never in the real world. Most of the cars I've owned got 200-300 on a tank of gas in the real world.

Overall the Porsche 800v system is less efficient than Tesla's. It can fast charge initially faster, but Tesla's system is much more efficient.
Porsche focused on performance, rather than efficiency with the Taycan.

The VAG car that is really important is the VW ID series. That promises to be a highly efficient EV with new battery technology.
Will see I guess.

I agree, once the major players ramp up into EV's, it's game over for players like Tesla but that may not happen for decades.
Toyota can, for example, make full ev's now but they consider the market so small, it's not worth it. The TNGA is ready for it though, if they decide to do it.

300mile range seems to be the magic goal. It's not practical as a mainstream car yet, but for how most use a car, in the city it works.

I could see a future where everyone uses an ev and just rents a ice for long trips, or as a secondary vehicle (instead of the other way around now).

Currently the infrastructure is not there for true mainstream ev use. That's the big bottleneck.

Tesla is the Chevron of the future. They have the network.

Imagine if Toyota goes all in on a EV- it will be twice as nice, at half the price.

[Ralph]

Another people killer for the roads. Hooray.

My next not car was recently a surly midnight special. I ride it to and from work for 80 minutes a day on a beautiful multi use path mostly through parks. On the weekends I ride it for pleasure and to the farmers market for groceries.

My daughter rides on the back of a bike extension from my wife’s bike to school each day and then my wife pedals down a bike path to her school where she teaches. After finishing she rides and picks our daughter up from school and rides through parks to where we live (on the edge of the park)

We purposely planned where we lived after identifying the access it had to food and school and work on traffic isolated multi use paths.

Smart....Good planning. it's good you can do it safely.

[AngryScientist]

Another people killer for the roads. Hooray.



a little dramatic, dont you think?

[NHAero]

I'm curious about how those advocating hydrogen here see it being generated, transported to fueling stations, and transferred and stored in vehicle "tanks". Are we envisioning multi-thousand psi storage tanks? Some type of liquified storage? Another type of chemical carrier?

[unterhausen]

I saw that hydrogen was being adopted on a large scale for vehicle propulsion somewhere, maybe in Norway?

Not that long ago, there was a lot of work in our department on fuel cells. All that work just went away overnight and those researchers switched to working on batteries. I guess it might come back. Too late for GM though

[jtbadge]

Cyclists and pedestrians should probably afraid of the electric Hummer. At least before when people where barreling down the road in their gigantic, tall, heavy, insulated tanks to soccer practice while playing on their phone and drowning out the sound of children, you could hear the engine coming.

[pasadena]

Cyclists and pedestrians should probably afraid of the electric Hummer. At least before when people where barreling down the road in their gigantic, tall, heavy, insulated tanks to soccer practice while playing on their phone and drowning out the sound of children, you could hear the engine coming.

GM is just using their brand recognition. It will not be some monster suv.
They rushed the ad out to compete with the F150 EV media blitz.

Hummer will probably be their EV brand for trucks/suv's. It's a clever marketing scheme, to go from the worst to the best emissions scheme.

Ford did the same by using the Mustang brand for their EV.

[adub]

Great to see demand for vehicles like this to put a damper on countries like Canada/USA producing ethical oil, ramping up demand for cobalt to keep the kids employed in the Congo.

I'm all for the development of EV's, but gluttony is gluttony. When you have an EV that likely uses 3x the resources to build and operate compared to something more modest it kinda trumps the reason to own one, IMO...

[William]

As an aside, the original Hummer and the variants were actually very good off-road vehicles...which they were intended to be. Then they became a weird status symbol by people who blinged them up and never took them off-road. The original look, most people either loved it or hated it...not much inbetween. Gas guzzlers? Not great but the Toyota Landcruisers and other 4x4's weren't any better.







W.

[AngryScientist]

I'm all for the development of EV's, but gluttony is gluttony. When you have an EV that likely uses 3x the resources to build and operate compared to something more modest it kinda trumps the reason to own one, IMO...

you have to think outside of your own circumstances. sure econo-boxes serve many people the best, but surely you can accept that there are needs beyond which a nissan leaf can provide right?

what about someone who owns a landscaping business, routinely hauls heavy equipment etc to make a living? is it gluttony that this person needs a truck, and maybe now can choose an EV over an F250?

[gomango]

what about someone who owns a landscaping business, routinely hauls heavy equipment etc to make a living? is it gluttony that this person needs a truck, and maybe now can choose an EV over an F250?

Not in my experience.

Our family owns a hardscaping company and I doubt they would take a reach on a first gen electric truck.

A RAM 2500/3500 or a F-250 would be the best choices, especially on a reliability basis.

I've never seen a Hummer operated by a local company. Hardly a reliable vehicle, they were an electrician's nightmare. Tranny issues as well.

I just don't trust Hummer to put a reliable vehicle out the door on the first shot.

[AngryScientist]

Not in my experience.

Our family owns a hardscaping company and I doubt they would take a reach on a first gen electric truck.

A RAM 2500/3500 or a F-250 would be the best choices, especially on a reliability basis.

I've never seen a Hummer operated by a local company. Hardly a reliable vehicle, they were an electrician's nightmare. Tranny issues as well.

I just don't trust Hummer to put a reliable vehicle out the door on the first shot.

oh i agree with you. i was just illustrating that not everyone is best served by econo-box EV's.

[schwa86]

I’ll just opine that this is what I like so much about this forum — I Have instinctively had many of the thoughts expressed, but in reading have learned a lot about things I hadn’t really considered, folks have brought a range of expertise to bear, and the conversation has had good give and take.

[gomango]

oh i agree with you. i was just illustrating that not everyone is best served by econo-box EV's.

Right on!

I think everyone has to take a hard look at prices to acquire vs price to maintain.

A RAM 2500 is a great truck with a decent warranty.

If a company owner bought five of these to use for their crews, there would be zero second thoughts.

Initial warranty is just fine and they are as tough as nails.

Not too bad to hitch up a Lund fishing rig to as well. :)

imho Hummer has to prove themselves. I won't jump on a bandwagon based on a press release.

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=gomango;2654722



I've never seen a Hummer operated by a local company. Hardly a reliable vehicle, they were an electrician's nightmare. Tranny issues as well.

I just don't trust Hummer to put a reliable vehicle out the door on the first shot.[/QUOTE]

I kinda doubt if the new EV Hummer will resemble the old one in any way....under the skin anyway. With probably no parts the same. Just the name. And there is no way to judge the initial reliability.

At any rate.....can't see how any tradesman would choose one. However...do see a market from suburbanites whose idea of rough terrain is a dirt driveway. Or who just want to portray a tough appearance.

[buddybikes]

Wasn't the hummer a civilian version of military transport vehicle?

[adub]

you have to think outside of your own circumstances. sure econo-boxes serve many people the best, but surely you can accept that there are needs beyond which a nissan leaf can provide right?

what about someone who owns a landscaping business, routinely hauls heavy equipment etc to make a living? is it gluttony that this person needs a truck, and maybe now can choose an EV over an F250?

I agree, but the Hummer brand is not about being a utilitarian work/service vehicle.

Talking about doing the right things for climate change and actually doing something are two very different things. An EV with up to 4 electric motors in it, 0-60 in 3 seconds, a battery 4x the size of one in a "regular" EV, is not a move in the right direction- IMO

No different than a well to do family with a 5000s/f house as a primary home, a condo in Maui they fly to, and a ski condo in Aspen they spend a few weeks in the winter at. But hey, they are doing the right thing for climate change because they drive a tesla, compost, recycle and don't use plastic straws.

[Likes2ridefar]

a little dramatic, dont you think?

No....I don’t think so. It’s a huge, wide and heavy vehicle that will be generally driven by rich jerks that can’t handle a few second delay a pedestrian or cyclist will cause them.

[MattTuck]

I'm all for the development of EV's, but gluttony is gluttony. When you have an EV that likely uses 3x the resources to build and operate compared to something more modest it kinda trumps the reason to own one, IMO...

That comes off as a bit paternalistic.

[dancinkozmo]

That comes off as a bit paternalistic.

maybe...but he's right.
no matter how you slice it hummers are stupid

[Mark McM]

I'm curious about how those advocating hydrogen here see it being generated, transported to fueling stations, and transferred and stored in vehicle "tanks". Are we envisioning multi-thousand psi storage tanks? Some type of liquified storage? Another type of chemical carrier?

There are a number of options, and the final infrastructure solution(s) would depend on a number of practical matters. As you allude, hydrogen isn't easy to store (long term) or to transport. However, hydrogen can be generated from any number of sources, so it could be generated at locaizedl distribution points - maybe right at the filling station. This would mean only limited amounts would have to stored and only for a short period of time. The temporary storage would probably not have to be at excessive pressure, either, as it could be compressed just before it was pumped into the vehicle*. There is also work being done on using materials that readily absorb and release hydrogen, so that hydrogen gas did not have to stored at high pressure. I'm not sure this a practical solution for large density storage, but could be an option where high pressure storage is not practical.

*This is currently how 'fuel' is delivered to natural gas vehicles. Natural gas is delivered to the fueling station at low pressure the same as it is delivered to homes for heating and cooking, then it is compressed to a high pressure in a local temporary holding tank to be ready to be transferred to the vehicle.

[Llewellyn]

maybe...but he's right.
no matter how you slice it hummers are stupid

And about as attractive as a feral bush pig.

[oldpotatoe]

300mile range seems to be the magic goal. It's not practical as a mainstream car yet, but for how most use a car, in the city it works.

It's interesting that this seems to be the 'goal' but it never mentions if a charging station is available at the end of that trip...Sure, an EV could get me to my Rx at the USAF Academy but, what then...??? And that 'magic' number is when it's not too warm or cold, the conditions are perfect for the EV..kinda like 'mileage' posted on the cars 'sticker'...

[oldpotatoe]

There are a number of options, and the final infrastructure solution(s) would depend on a number of practical matters. As you allude, hydrogen isn't easy to store (long term) or to transport. However, hydrogen can be generated from any number of sources, so it could be generated at locaizedl distribution points - maybe right at the filling station. This would mean only limited amounts would have to stored and only for a short period of time. The temporary storage would probably not have to be at excessive pressure, either, as it could be compressed just before it was pumped into the vehicle*. There is also work being done on using materials that readily absorb and release hydrogen, so that hydrogen gas did not have to stored at high pressure. I'm not sure this a practical solution for large density storage, but could be an option where high pressure storage is not practical.

*This is currently how 'fuel' is delivered to natural gas vehicles. Natural gas is delivered to the fueling station at low pressure the same as it is delivered to homes for heating and cooking, then it is compressed to a high pressure in a local temporary holding tank to be ready to be transferred to the vehicle.

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

[alancw3]

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

Peter I think you are missing something here. first hydrogen is a zero emission fuel and what about the energy, fossil, coal or whatever that is needed to produce electricity for storage batteries?

[alancw3]

you guys need to watch this documentary movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

It addresses how big oil seriously curtailed the treat of hydrogen cars. again. money money money. I don't know if hydrogen is better or worse than electric cars but i don't think it was given a fair chance as a viable alternation to gas. I think that it is unconsciously that big oil was allowed to control and affect our lives that way. whatever, I will never buy another ICE powered vehicle. just saying.

[smontanaro]

Just started listening to the Drilled podcast (https://play.google.com/music/listen#/ps/I35tyxb55ysetxugu5vaugol2da). Seems worth a listen...

[Mark McM]

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

This depends on what method is used to generate the hydrogen. For electrolysis (using electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen) the hydrogen becomes a temporary energy storage medium for electricity, which must itself be generated some other way. Obviously, with electrolysis you don't get more energy out of the hydrogen than you put in (that would be perpetual motion), and due to inefficiencies/entropy, there is actually an energy loss. Electrolysis is about 80% efficient (as compared to charging Li-Ion batteries, which is about 90% efficient).

However, a less expensive source of hydrogen is from natural gas by using a process called steam reforming, in which hydrogen is extracted from methane (chemical formula CH4, the main component of natural gas). In this method you get far more energy out than you put in. Unfortunately, the traditional process of natural gas steam reformation has CO2 as the byproduct, but work is being done on new processes which don't produce CO2.

[josephr]

I am not an expert, but from the press I've read about EVs it seems like the weak point now is the lithium ion battery chemistry. I am not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this technology when it seems that some other chemistries could be around the corner.

Perhaps they design the vehicles to be chemistry independent, figuring they can just put in a new battery whenever the chemistry goes mainstream.

I have read some other reports that there is the potential for radical improvements in the electric motors as well. Very interesting though.

I am writing a case study right now on GM's retreat from Europe and EV production was one of the things they wanted to invest their proceeds into. If this is partly the fruit of that investment, good for them.

Also, I think you mean GM, not GE :)

GM owners of the Bolt are reporting less than 5% total capacity losses over the past 3 years and GM just came out with a new Bolt. Tesla owners are reporting maintaining about 90% on their Model S since it came out. Personally, I'm ready to go electric, but a new car just isn't in the budget for a couple of years. The new Leaf and Bolt are both neat little hatchbacks-perfect daily runabouts and put the bike in the back! :cool:

[josephr]

It's interesting that this seems to be the 'goal' but it never mentions if a charging station is available at the end of that trip...Sure, an EV could get me to my Rx at the USAF Academy but, what then...??? And that 'magic' number is when it's not too warm or cold, the conditions are perfect for the EV..kinda like 'mileage' posted on the cars 'sticker'...

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet...maybe not the superfast charging you read about, but for most homeowners, the superfast charging station thing is really not neccessary. As far as long-distance driving, it takes 30 minutes to charge up to 80% capacity...considering thats about 20 minutes longer than to put gas in a car, I think its just going to be a matter of time before Wendy's, Chipotle, McDonald's, etc, start putting up charging stations at their locations.

[Macadamia]

hehe I knew Hummer wasn't dead, let's get this thing out in time for the next recession!

[gemship]

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet...maybe not the superfast charging you read about, but for most homeowners, the superfast charging station thing is really not neccessary. As far as long-distance driving, it takes 30 minutes to charge up to 80% capacity...considering thats about 20 minutes longer than to put gas in a car, I think its just going to be a matter of time before Wendy's, Chipotle, McDonald's, etc, start putting up charging stations at their locations.

And maybe when that day comes they will figure out a more green way to make all that electricity because the grid will need to grow for sure. Well it is a Humvee so maybe the auto designers can incorporate some solar panels and maybe a windmill on the roof:p

[oldpotatoe]

Peter I think you are missing something here. first hydrogen is a zero emission fuel and what about the energy, fossil, coal or whatever that is needed to produce electricity for storage batteries?

I get that but asking about the energy required to make hydrogen vs using that energy(electricity) to power the vehicle. Kinda like eating the cow that ate the veggies or eat the veggies first..type thing.

BTW-Mark answered it really well, as I knew he would...

BTW-NOTHING is 'zero emission'..whether it be the energy to produce the wind turbine, the energy needed to make the solar panel, the car battery, the hydrogen or fuel cell...NOTHING. Laying in the sun to get warm is zero emission, not much else. I get a kick out of Leaf's, 'Zero Emissions' or subaru, 'PZEV' on their back lid..what a crock..
300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet

My point, I guess..travel to the USAF Academy..NO charging stations but TONS of gas stations. My point is, what is going to be the impetus to swap from gas stations to charging stations? It won't be done if it doesn't make somebody $..I'm guessing some sort of calamity, because people are lemmimgs, they won't 'change' unless they are forced to, it's either a matter of convenience or $..but 'feel good' decisions about EVs are teeny, tiny, tiny, small....

[saab2000]

Charging stations are popping up all over the place.

I’ve got a sudden interest in EVs and have done a bit of research and watched a lot of videos from actual owners. The technology is improving rapidly, as is the infrastructure for EVs.

Most EVs require near zero maintenance beyond tires and some basic service.

I may never purchase another ICE vehicle after seeing many of the positive things about EV ownership. Seems like most Tesla owners are pretty satisfied and there are other brands too.

And a 300 mile range is no longer the stuff of science fiction. It’s real and Tesla’s charging network is based on being able to road trip using their stations. And getting an appropriate charger installed at home isn’t hard or costly. For most commuters the range is more than adequate and top off every night at home, programming it to charge when rates are lowest.

I think it will eventually reach a critical mass and they (EVs) will become more and more mainstream.

[Mark McM]

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet...maybe not the superfast charging you read about, but for most homeowners, the superfast charging station thing is really not neccessary. As far as long-distance driving, it takes 30 minutes to charge up to 80% capacity...considering thats about 20 minutes longer than to put gas in a car, I think its just going to be a matter of time before Wendy's, Chipotle, McDonald's, etc, start putting up charging stations at their locations.

The 300 mile range automobiles isn't so much a technical requirement, but is a user expectation. ICE automobiles could easily get far more than this*, but the manufacturers don't bother because users don't expect. Likewise, EVs could be built very inexpensively if they only had short ranges, but users expect more range so EVs end up being very expensive (batteries are the major part of EV cost).

I don't think you'll find charging stations showing up at fast food restaurants. Users often go to these restaurants for speed and convenience, and hooking up a charger and waiting long enough for a meaningful amount of charge would affect speed and convenience. How much charging could you do through the drive-up window?

*My car gets about 400 mile range out of its 12 gallon gas tank, an the fuel itself has a volume of 1.6 cubic feet and weighs 72 lb. Increasing the range to 600 miles would reduce the cargo capacity by 0.8 cubic feet and 36 lb., which is just small percentage of the totally cargo capacity. If the typical customer really wanted a 600 mile range, this would be easy to accommodate at a modest cost.

[benb]

My point, I guess..travel to the USAF Academy..NO charging stations but TONS of gas stations. My point is, what is going to be the impetus to swap from gas stations to charging stations? It won't be done if it doesn't make somebody $..I'm guessing some sort of calamity, because people are lemmimgs, they won't 'change' unless they are forced to, it's either a matter of convenience or $..but 'feel good' decisions about EVs are teeny, tiny, tiny, small....

Your area could be lagging? Charging stations have grown like weeds in my area over the last few years.

I think any EV on the market except maybe the Nissan leaf is already fine for 99%+ of my driving. My commuting is such I'd never have to use a charging station, I'd always be topped off every morning just plugging it in at home.

In the last 10 years I don't think I've driven my car further from the Boston area than Boston -> Albany, Boston -> NYC, Boston -> Burlington, VT. All of those are reachable without charging along the way, but there is charging along the way even if it was needed. I'm still years away from getting a new car though.

I don't really know where the 300 mile average range thing comes from. It's not like ICE cars are not also dependent on optimal weather. They lose efficiency in the winter no different than an EV, and most lose efficiency in the mountains too in a way EVs don't.

My Subaru could probably go 500 miles in ideal conditions. A flat highway drive through the midwest at a steady 70F.

But in real life it barely makes it over 300 miles most of the time. It is particularly affected by cold weather even compared to the other gasoline engine cars I've owned.

Obviously gas is quick to refill but I was even fine when I had a Mustang GT... that cars's official range was 160miles city/240 miles highway. It never really got more than 200 miles before I had to refill it.

ICE cars can't just add tons and tons of fuel... there are safety issues there no different than batteries. Where they could pick up more range is mostly reducing their power levels. Engine efficiency has improved a lot in the last 20 years and the manufacturers took all that efficiency and made it a higher priority to increase horsepower more than fuel economy. We're really in a golden age of muscle cars right now. And EVs are only marginally better here in that aspect. An awful lot of EVs could be considered excessively quick if it's about efficiency.

I guess that's the whole thing that smells about a Hummer EV. They're using the EV part to justify as wasteful of a large vehicle as they can.

[Mark McM]

I don't really know where the 300 mile average range thing comes from.

I'm pretty sure it is simply a consumer expectation. Not all consumer expectations are cold hard rational choices, but that doesn't stop consumers from basing their buying decisions on expectations. Consumers have gotten used to vehicles that have ranges of 300 miles or more, and few would buy any vehicle (ICE, EV, etc) with a smaller range.

ICE cars can't just add tons and tons of fuel...

Why not? You wouldn't have to add that much more fuel to extend range significantly. Although my current car has a 12 gallon fuel tank, my old Honda Accord (which was about the same size as my current car) had a 16 gallon fuel tank. This would give my current car a range of about 550 miles. Some pickup trucks can have fuel tanks of 30 or 40 gallons*. Why didn't the manufacturer put a larger fuel tank in my car? Because a larger tank would have cost more and taken up more space, and the current 12 gallon tank gives it sufficient range to meet user expectations. If users tended to demand more range, I'm sure they would have put in a larger tank.

*The small 4 seat plane I fly weighs only 2400 lb. fully loaded (which is as light or lighter than any 4 seat car), but it carries 48 gallons of fuel, and has a range of over 500 miles. Why? Because pilots tend to expect to fly longer distances than drivers, and also because places to refuel planes tend to be further apart.

[Skenry]

No electrics for me yet but I was just test driving an older H2 over the weekend with the little lady. We were heading to dinner the other night and saw it in the used lot. White and chrome, not only would it be safe, she would look good in it.

I got vetoed though, she still wants the new Jeep Gladiator truck. There is something to be said for the removable roof.

Someday maybe for an E-car, hybrid or whatever they come up with next, but it's got to look good. Car companies need to remember that size matters and most full grown American men aren't going to enjoy sitting in a little car anymore.


Now an Emotorcycle, I could enjoy that as long as they keep the speed up and the CG low.

[sitzmark]

I guess that's the whole thing that smells about a Hummer EV. They're using the EV part to justify as wasteful of a large vehicle as they can.
More of a marketing play than anything. The EV Hummer is a variation of an existing GMC platform modified to accommodate electric. Similar to H2 and H3 which were modifications of existing platforms - the H3 especially.

Biggest impact will be proof that an EV vehicle is as rugged/capable as any line- production pickup/SUV. There's a huge demographic that is convinced EVs are wimpy vehicles for tree huggers and liberals - "obama vehicles". Little chance that demographic will run to buy an EV Hummer, but the seed will be planted for EV trucks in general. And by default if an EV truck is a "real vehicle", then by default so too are EV cars for people who don't have that impression currently.

[William]

No electrics for me yet but I was just test driving an older H2 over the weekend with the little lady. We were heading to dinner the other night and saw it in the used lot. White and chrome, not only would it be safe, she would look good in it.

I got vetoed though, she still wants the new Jeep Gladiator truck. There is something to be said for the removable roof.

Someday maybe for an E-car, hybrid or whatever they come up with next, but it's got to look good. Car companies need to remember that size matters and most full grown American men aren't going to enjoy sitting in a little car anymore.


Now an Emotorcycle, I could enjoy that as long as they keep the speed up and the CG low.

I find it interesting how polarizing the Hummer look is to people.I personally don't have an issue with it. The H1 and H3 look fine to me, the H2 I've always jokingly referred to as the bloated tick. That said its still a very capable off-road vehicle. Transmissions? No more so than other GM product trucks of that era. I think it was between 2000 and 2007 that there were issues with a few GM truck transmissions. The electrics were mainly the pass-lock feature that would sometimes be an issue. Now the sunroof, that could be a leaking issue if stuff got down the drain tubes. For some reason they used a sleeve that has ribs inside of it that could catch pine needles, dirt, leaf litter etc...and clog up. Next thing you now you have water leaking inside when you turn a corner. Simple fix. The dash and console area of the H2 was sometimes nick named the "plastic fantastic'. The leather seats were comfortable though and it was certainly safer than most to drive. Some 2006 H3's could have a head/head gasket issue but they were recalled and fixed. Even beter were the Alpha editions with the Vortec V8. Anyway, if you are looking for an older but capable 4WD they are are worth considering. Their value hasn't skyrocketed like Landcruisers and other 4WD's. Most people who owned them never took them off-road so most haven't been beaten up like other rigs. They also aren't the same as the Colorado platform contrary to popular belief.

As a tall adult driving something small is okay for around town and drives under an hour. Longer then that and it starts to become uncomfortable and long trips can be painful. At least most taller/bigger people will opt for more room.








William

[pasadena]

1. 300 mile range is key for range anxiety. It needs that buffer because it starts to take a hit in cold weather, using Air Conditioning, using Heat, using any and all electronics.

2. ice cars have anywhere from 150-500 mile range, but refueling is a non-issue. It takes 5 minutes.

Electric cars can take an 45min to an hour. This, over the course of a road trip, stopping every 200 or so miles, while having to carefully plot out the next charging stop, makes it a real non-starter for many.
If the charging station is occupied, you could well spend quite a bit of time in a charging station.
As the infrastructure grows, it will change, but at the moment, it's main attraction is for the urban commute- which is great.

3. I don't know if you or someone else in the thread mentioned cost of maintenance, and the impression that EV's cost less to upkeep. That would be nice but hasn't really worked out to be true.
If you look at CR or real owner experiences (tesla for example), the cost of upkeep is fairly similar to a good ice car like Toyota or Lexus.

4. Hummer is a name brand. The actual vehicle will not be a H1, H2 or H3.
It will most likely be GM's EV truck brand umbrella.
Currently, GM has GMC, CHEVY and Cadillac for their markets of trucks and suv's.
HUMMER would have the EV trucks and suv's in a seperate brand.
That's all. It's not like a plan to make a H1 or H2 into a EV.

HUMMER EV will probably have a range of sizes of pickups and suv's. I'm guessing a F-150EV competitor first and maybe more worktrucks and EV SUV alternatives for the GMC Denali/Chevy Tahoe crowd.

I also agree, ice cars are so good right now. They are really efficient, powerful but the ergonomics are horrendous. The infotainment is a travesty, designed to be obsolete and so expensive, future problems will salvage the car.
However, there are still many great ice cars and not many ev's yet.

In 5 yrs, it will be much better for ev's. If you hit a specific niche, ev's like Tesla, Porsche, Audi might be a fantastic alternative.

But it's more like buying computers- like the poor people that bought BMW i3's for similar money but only have like 90 miles of range. Things get outdated fast and there is no 'upgrading'.


I don't really know where the 300 mile average range thing comes from. It's not like ICE cars are not also dependent on optimal weather. They lose efficiency in the winter no different than an EV, and most lose efficiency in the mountains too in a way EVs don't.

My Subaru could probably go 500 miles in ideal conditions. A flat highway drive through the midwest at a steady 70F.

But in real life it barely makes it over 300 miles most of the time. It is particularly affected by cold weather even compared to the other gasoline engine cars I've owned.

Obviously gas is quick to refill but I was even fine when I had a Mustang GT... that cars's official range was 160miles city/240 miles highway. It never really got more than 200 miles before I had to refill it.

ICE cars can't just add tons and tons of fuel... there are safety issues there no different than batteries. Where they could pick up more range is mostly reducing their power levels. Engine efficiency has improved a lot in the last 20 years and the manufacturers took all that efficiency and made it a higher priority to increase horsepower more than fuel economy. We're really in a golden age of muscle cars right now. And EVs are only marginally better here in that aspect. An awful lot of EVs could be considered excessively quick if it's about efficiency.

I guess that's the whole thing that smells about a Hummer EV. They're using the EV part to justify as wasteful of a large vehicle as they can.

[AngryScientist]

and just like that......THIS pops across my feed:

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/new-nikola-electric-pickup-badger-details-2898314/


This New Zero-Emission Electric Pickup Has an Insane 600-Mile Range

The secret? Hydrogen. The Badger utilizes a fuel cell system that takes hydrogen from a refillable tank and converts it into enough electricity to power the motors for hours on end. According to the Arizona-based startup, the Badger will also be fitted with an onboard battery pack that will be big enough to power the pickup on its own and offer a more modest 300-mile range. Apparently, drivers will be able to switch between the modes with the touch of a button.

the vehicle’s 906 peak hp (455 continuous hp) and 980 ft lbs of torque. !!

https://robbreportedit.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/nikola-badger-electric-pickup.jpeg?w=660

[oldpotatoe]

1. 300 mile range is key for range anxiety. It needs that buffer because it starts to take a hit in cold weather, using Air Conditioning, using Heat, using any and all electronics.

2. ice cars have anywhere from 150-500 mile range, but refueling is a non-issue. It takes 5 minutes.

Electric cars can take an 45min to an hour. This, over the course of a road trip, stopping every 200 or so miles, while having to carefully plot out the next charging stop, makes it a real non-starter for many.
If the charging station is occupied, you could well spend quite a bit of time in a charging station.
As the infrastructure grows, it will change, but at the moment, it's main attraction is for the urban commute- which is great.

3. I don't know if you or someone else in the thread mentioned cost of maintenance, and the impression that EV's cost less to upkeep. That would be nice but hasn't really worked out to be true.
If you look at CR or real owner experiences (tesla for example), the cost of upkeep is fairly similar to a good ice car like Toyota or Lexus.

4. Hummer is a name brand. The actual vehicle will not be a H1, H2 or H3.
It will most likely be GM's EV truck brand umbrella.
Currently, GM has GMC, CHEVY and Cadillac for their markets of trucks and suv's.
HUMMER would have the EV trucks and suv's in a seperate brand.
That's all. It's not like a plan to make a H1 or H2 into a EV.

HUMMER EV will probably have a range of sizes of pickups and suv's. I'm guessing a F-150EV competitor first and maybe more worktrucks and EV SUV alternatives for the GMC Denali/Chevy Tahoe crowd.

I also agree, ice cars are so good right now. They are really efficient, powerful but the ergonomics are horrendous. The infotainment is a travesty, designed to be obsolete and so expensive, future problems will salvage the car.
However, there are still many great ice cars and not many ev's yet.

In 5 yrs, it will be much better for ev's. If you hit a specific niche, ev's like Tesla, Porsche, Audi might be a fantastic alternative.

But it's more like buying computers- like the poor people that bought BMW i3's for similar money but only have like 90 miles of range. Things get outdated fast and there is no 'upgrading'.

GREAT overview and I agree plus
I also agree, ice cars are so good right now.

Gas around here is $2.30-$2.60 or so a gal..Gas in Europe runs about $7-$8 a gal..and their answer? Small diesels are everywhere...

For right above..the Badger..are there any hydrogen fueling stations anywhere?

[benb]

Not sure what Consumer Reports was going off/did.

There was a taxi company that posted spreadsheets for the Tesla Model S out to 500k miles and compared it with their fleet of BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class.

They had about 1/5th the cost on the Tesla.

You can't compare a Model S to a Camry. You'd have to compare it to a Lexus LS and you'd have to service the Lexus at a Lexus dealer for a fair comparison since Tesla is mostly shutting down 3rd party. (Crappy I know) . It's not even usually compared with the LS, it get categorized with the 7-series, S-class, Audi A7, etc.. it gets dinged for not having quite as nice an interior but it is mostly taking sales from those cars.

As for the Model 3 who knows, it seems like it's too new, but you still have to compare it to a BMW 3-series or something like that. It's really not a Camry/Accord competitor IMO. (I would really like it if they actually had made a Camry/Accord competitor instead!)

[cetuximab]

Hydrogen is not very energy dense.

Liquid hydrogen has less energy density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by approximately a factor of four.

Liquefaction imposes a large energy loss. The boiling temp of hydrogen is 20° K. (0° K is absolute zero, no molecular movement, for reference nitrogen’s boiling point is a balmy 77°K.) So energy expensive to liquify and store.

Compressed hydrogen permeates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeation
I talked with a chemist about fuel cell cars and he ranted for 15 min. About how hydrogen leaks out of everything.

Other storage methods include physisorption, metallic hydrides, and complex hydrides. Perhaps one of these or a combination of these will help fuel cell technology replace gasoline.

[Mark McM]

Hydrogen is not very energy dense.

Liquid hydrogen has less energy density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by approximately a factor of four.

Hydrogen is not very energy dense by volume, but it is extremely energy dense by mass. In fact, it has the highest energy density by mass of any chemical fuel (which is why it is used in space rockets).


Liquefaction imposes a large energy loss. The boiling temp of hydrogen is 20° K. (0° K is absolute zero, no molecular movement, for reference nitrogen’s boiling point is a balmy 77°K.) So energy expensive to liquify and store.

Compressed hydrogen permeates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeation
I talked with a chemist about fuel cell cars and he ranted for 15 min. About how hydrogen leaks out of everything.

Other storage methods include physisorption, metallic hydrides, and complex hydrides. Perhaps one of these or a combination of these will help fuel cell technology replace gasoline.

Automobiles are very unlikely to use liquid hydrogen, for a variety of reasons (including the energy cost you mention).

Because it permeates so easily, compressed hydrogen is unlikely to be used for long term storage, but instead is more likely to be generated local to a filling station.

As you mention, other storage methods are being researched for hydrogen. Will there be a breakthrough in one of the methods? It's hard to say. But we've been depending on that new breakthrough in battery technology, and that hasn't happened yet, either.

[tomato coupe]

My point, I guess..travel to the USAF Academy..NO charging stations but TONS of gas stations.

A quick online search returns 20 charging stations in Colorado Springs, including a Tesla charger right near the Air Force Academy. But, it isn't really an issue if you're driving a Tesla, since the Air Force Academy is only 85 miles from Boulder.

[pasadena]

LOL
No one is cross shopping a Sclass, LS , A8, or 7 with a Tesla S.
First of all, most of the world, the big germans are executive saloons. THey are work vehicles, and the owners and/or customers sit in the back.

The S doesn't compare at all to these. I would never use a S for what the majority of customers use the full size saloons. No one uses a Tesla for executive portage. They are a second or third car for these types of customers, or ones that drive themselves. The US is one of the few places it's more common for the owner to drive themselves in executive cars- and if these guys have Teslas, they are not replacing a S or A8.

The german cars executive products are notoriously unreliable. Always have been. The depreciation is also terrible. Always has been.
The Tesla S is not a direct competitor, not even close.

The Tesla products are costly because of the tech and propietary nature of it, not because it has the quality of a premium executive car.
Tesla has improved, but they don't hold a candle in that regard to any of the premium brands.

Tesla may not have a ice to service, but everything else needs service (suspension, tires, body, electronics, hvac, all the mechanical parts, paint) and Tesla is really behind the major manufacturers in this regard as they learn how to build cars.
And, with Tesla's refusal to support 3rd party service, customers are waiting ridiculous times for simple repairs and warranty work. Even if you want to spend money to fix something, it may not be possible.

Out of warranty costs are astronomical, since Tesla can set their own costs and procedures to repair things. Out of warranty, a Tesla owner can literally have a 6k lb brick that Tesla will not touch and you have very little choice in repairing it.

That's why once the big dogs like VAG, Ford, GM, Toyota get serious about mainstream EV's, it will blow Tesla out of the water.
They will offer service, and a product costing less but offering much more.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Tesla- they are great innovators. The products are great. They are not a good value, but that's the cost of getting something so popular. The S and 3 are great products with some deep caveats, but if you want a cool EV that doesn't look like a econobox cartoon- there isn't much else to get for the money.

I think Tesla will evolve in the future as the competition becomes more fierce.

Not sure what Consumer Reports was going off/did.

There was a taxi company that posted spreadsheets for the Tesla Model S out to 500k miles and compared it with their fleet of BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class.

They had about 1/5th the cost on the Tesla.

You can't compare a Model S to a Camry. You'd have to compare it to a Lexus LS and you'd have to service the Lexus at a Lexus dealer for a fair comparison since Tesla is mostly shutting down 3rd party. (Crappy I know) . It's not even usually compared with the LS, it get categorized with the 7-series, S-class, Audi A7, etc.. it gets dinged for not having quite as nice an interior but it is mostly taking sales from those cars.

As for the Model 3 who knows, it seems like it's too new, but you still have to compare it to a BMW 3-series or something like that. It's really not a Camry/Accord competitor IMO. (I would really like it if they actually had made a Camry/Accord competitor instead!)

[Black Dog]

Hydrogen is coming.

https://www.trucks.com/2019/02/18/qa-nikola-founder-trevor-milton/

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25810/toyota-announces-partnership-with-kenworth-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-development

[donevwil]

Hydrogen is coming.

https://www.trucks.com/2019/02/18/qa-nikola-founder-trevor-milton/

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25810/toyota-announces-partnership-with-kenworth-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-development

Hydrogen is here, kind of. Hydrogen is dangerous stuff when handled improperly and the supply chain for auto use is only slightly better than nil in Nor Cal.

A friend leased a Toyota Mirai early last year and loves it. More appealing solution than plug-in electric once (if) fuel availability is eventually solved. Toyota, as well as a couple other mfg'rs, are paying people to lease these in hopes of forcing fuel demand. Unfortunately the one supply depot in Northern California had an explosion last year that shut down distribution for 7 months, car sat. Toyota did give her an SUV in the interim.

[josephr]

I get that but asking about the energy required to make hydrogen vs using that energy(electricity) to power the vehicle. Kinda like eating the cow that ate the veggies or eat the veggies first..type thing.

BTW-Mark answered it really well, as I knew he would...

BTW-NOTHING is 'zero emission'..whether it be the energy to produce the wind turbine, the energy needed to make the solar panel, the car battery, the hydrogen or fuel cell...NOTHING. Laying in the sun to get warm is zero emission, not much else. I get a kick out of Leaf's, 'Zero Emissions' or subaru, 'PZEV' on their back lid..what a crock..


My point, I guess..travel to the USAF Academy..NO charging stations but TONS of gas stations. My point is, what is going to be the impetus to swap from gas stations to charging stations? It won't be done if it doesn't make somebody $..I'm guessing some sort of calamity, because people are lemmimgs, they won't 'change' unless they are forced to, it's either a matter of convenience or $..but 'feel good' decisions about EVs are teeny, tiny, tiny, small....

I see your point---years and years of cheap oil have gotten us into a routine/way of life, but the convenience factor of charging at home with everyday usable range is going to cover 90% of our daily driving. It'll take a little bit of planning your trips, but I don't see how that's any different than planning for a bike ride.

As far as teeny-tiny EVs....I remember the first hybrids and that funky electric thing GM built 20 years ago....The Model S is a substantial vehicle in size and the CyberTruck is close in footprint size to an F150. Sure, the Leaf and the Bolt are smaller cars, but really about the size of a Corolla hatchback....a far cry from the micro-cars we think about when we think about EVs.

The real change to EVs is going to be in the delivery and commercial vehicle markets....where going electric is really going to make good $ sense. I don't know why so many people freak out about tho. Warehouses have been using electric forklifts and yard-dogs for as long as I can remember. Everyday driving vehicles are just the next big leap. For those that think I'm an environmentalist type----yeah, I am, but my proponency of EVs isn't about CO2 emissions...its just that they're becoming so damn practical to own/drive, its really interesting to me. Outside of the US, the Leaf is one of Nissan's best selling vehicles and the progressive European countries are putting in plans to phase out gas/diesel/hybrids. To me, it just sounds like a good idea.

[josephr]

I don't think you'll find charging stations showing up at fast food restaurants. Users often go to these restaurants for speed and convenience, and hooking up a charger and waiting long enough for a meaningful amount of charge would affect speed and convenience. How much charging could you do through the drive-up window?


I'm not saying everyone is going to stop at a FF restaurant to charge, but I'm just trying to point out the option for long-distance travelers. 300 miles is 4 hours of driving at 75mph....you need to stop and pee, maybe get a bite to eat....charge up while you chow down. :cool:

[pasadena]

Yeah, what could go wrong?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMVM8p2WkAAJ2g0.jpg

I'm not saying everyone is going to stop at a FF restaurant to charge, but I'm just trying to point out the option for long-distance travelers. 300 miles is 4 hours of driving at 75mph....you need to stop and pee, maybe get a bite to eat....charge up while you chow down. :cool:

[oldpotatoe]

A quick online search returns 20 charging stations in Colorado Springs, including a Tesla charger right near the Air Force Academy. But, it isn't really an issue if you're driving a Tesla, since the Air Force Academy is only 85 miles from Boulder.

88.2 to the North gate from the south end of Boulder, I need to go into the South gate..PLUS, I guess you assume my EV was 'fully charged', it was a nice spring day(no heater, no A/C), and I had time to find the charging station and the time to sit and wait for the EV to charge..I guess...

The south one on Woodman road looks closer but the north one at Interquest Parkway isn't . 5 slots on one, 4 on the other. Hope they aren't full(?) when I get there...but I guess you assume I have all day to sit in my lawn chair that I brought, in that industrial park and read a nice novel..

BUT, you miss my point, I guess. YES, EV is happening but unless it's as convenient and as cheap as a ICE, it's going to be small potatoes for a while.

Ya know, my 69yo wife and I could shop for groceries on a bike too, but not gonna happen(see 'as convenient' above)..we could nanny our 2 grand daughters in Broomfield on bikes too, and maybe take them to the movies..maybe, but that's not gonna happen either.....'as convenient'..

I could drop say $30-$35 THOUSAND on a new EV(my cars are paid for) and go into debt for those, and pay the bigger $ insurance and make this whole gettin' around MORE expensive and LESS convenient...who cares, money is just flooding out of my bank accounts...but ya know, I'm not going to and I'm not alone.

[tomato coupe]

88.2 to the North gate from the south end of Boulder, I need to go into the South gate..PLUS, I guess you assume my EV was 'fully charged', it was a nice spring day(no heater, no A/C), and I had time to find the charging station and the time to sit and wait for the EV to charge..I guess...

I haven't made any assumptions about the weather, but I would assume that anyone making a trip that stretches the range of an EV would fully charge it before they left. That seems like common sense ...

[saab2000]

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything other than research the subject. There are many, many reviews of daily life with an electric vehicle and in 2020 they're easier and easier to live with.

Some of the positives I've read, in no particular order.

- Fun to drive, lots of torque.
- Recharge at home/Never visit a gas station again
- Far less maintenance
- Quiet and smooth
- Pre-Heat or Cool safely in your garage while the car is still plugged in
- Rapidly improving charging infrastructure and rapid charge times. Minutes, not hours.


The list undoubtedly goes on and none of this is about ecology, which is often a primary motivator though much more complicated when looked at in depth. But even that has been researched and reported if someone is interested in looking for it.

I think there's the idea that these things are your early 1990s EVs with 45 miles of range and no support. Those days are long gone.

I'm not buying anything at the moment but an EV will surely be on my shopping list next time I'm ready to look.

[Ozz]

Car companies like to sell cars by making the process an emotional experience....let them dream of the trips they "want" to take. Long road trips, driving thru mountain passes on empty roads, etc....

The fact is, most driving is getting to and from work, going to the grocery store, getting kids to school, and picking them up from soccer practice....probably fewer than 100 miles per day, even if you live in the suburbs. An EV is a great choice for this.

If you want to go on a road trip or whatever a couple times per year....rent a vehicle suited for that.

Obviously, if you live in the middle of nowhere or put 200 miles per day on your car, your needs are different.

[benb]

This thread is just going into the weird "get off my lawn" stuff now.

A gas station has to shut down if it floods too.

Not that I would want to drive an EV through a flooded road but theoretically they'll do better than an ICE if everything is done properly.. there's no air intake.

I think Hydrogen is deader than a doornail. We are well on our way with EV charging infrastructure.

Honda & Toyota went off on their quest with Hydrogen and it's gone nowhere. Scaling up Hydrogen infrastructure is so much harder than EV charging.

Have their even been any Hydrogen cars sold? I think they were all leases and Honda & Toyota took the cars back.. it was just an experiment. Did they even lease any outside CA?

[Mark McM]

Have their even been any Hydrogen cars sold? I think they were all leases and Honda & Toyota took the cars back.. it was just an experiment. Did they even lease any outside CA?

Total sales of hydrogen cars have been low, but the combined sales of the Toyota Mirai, the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell and the Hyundai NEXO have been running at over 2000/year for the last few years. All 3 have a range of over 300 miles (380 miles for the NEXO), and can be re-fueled in about 5 minutes. While they have high price tags, all 3 are available for purchase. However, they are only available in the limited markets where there are hydrogen refueling stations (California and Hawaii).

[William]

Your Porsche EV is ready for pick up!!!:banana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgWXNL7wAPE








W.

[tomato coupe]

This thread is just going into the weird "get off my lawn" stuff now.
They always do ...

[enr1co]

Gas around here is $2.30-$2.60 or so a gal..

Havent seen this price per gallon in CA since the late 1990’s :D

[Polyglot]

I have been driving electric for 5 years now and have NEEDED to recharge outside of my home less than 10 times total. I have charged many more times than that outside of home but not for any real need, but rather because I had access to free charges or was going to stop anyhow (i.e. at a grocery store, restaurant, mall, gym...) and was following the ABC rule (always be charging). This IS typical of most EV owners. So the long recharge times, while out and about simply do not occur.

Given my experience, I can ensure you that the comments about all the time needed to charge an EV are the result of defective reasoning. Before faulting EV's for long recharge time, think about what you need to do with an ICE car. Every single fill up requires a detour and you vey frequently need to wait in line. When I still lived in NJ, the most commonly used gas station in my town was at the local Costco. A typical fill up required close to 10 minutes between the line and the actual filling. You cannot however precisely know how long it will take to refuel, so are obliged to always err on the side of caution or else suffer continually arriving late at your destination. This is for every single time you refuel. You are required to be personally present for even minute spent refueling, indeed many states even have laws requiring that a person be physically present. With electric, the most common situation IS a home charger that allows you to very simply recharge overnight and start each day with a full charge, therefore never needing to make any detours to recharge, as your home is absolutely on your route. The recharge of the car does indeed take more time, but you do NOT need to be PRESENT, apart from the few seconds to hook up and disconnect. You can readily go about your other affairs while recharging and not lose a single minute of your personal time. So on an annual basis you save an absolutely mind-boggling amount of time. So even if on the rare occasion (in my personal case an average of perhaps twice a year) you do need to recharge while out and about, you still save an enormous amount of time over the course of a year when compared to an ICE car.

ICE drivers don't understand how much time they waste refueling, because they have never lived with the alternative. My youngest daughter learned to drive in a EV and was told by her driving tester at the DMV that she was the first person that they had ever had turn up for the driving test in an EV. She has therefore done the large majority of her driving in EV's and now that she has flown the coop and is at university, she is faced for the first time with needing to drive ICE cars, she complains about driving ICE vehicles for the stinky gas pumps and in particular her stinky hands after refueling. She complains about the amount of time that she wastes in going to gas stations.

It is all a matter perspective!

As regards costs, I get a bit over 5 miles per kWh. In my town of 12,000 residents in British Columbia, Canada, there are 6 different public chargers that are offered free of charge, so theoretically, I could recharge for free. But, that would mean that I would need to go through the same nonsense of detours and potentially waiting for recharge like all ICE car drivers have to deal with. I therefore prefer, like most EV users to pay for the energy and charge in my garage. The cost in BC is about US$0.08 per kWh when charging at home. So I am paying a grand total of US$0.018 per mile for energy. Less than 2 cents per mile. For a Prius getting 50 miles per gallon to match this cost, you would need to have gas at below one dollar per gallon, which is simply not going to happen, and you still need to deal with the waste of time in going to the gas stations. For comparison, when I recently rented an ICE car, I spent the equivalent of US$4.20 per gallon for premium fuel. Granted the cost of fuel is considerably more expensive where I live, and electricity is much cheaper, but that means that I would need to be able to get the equivalent of 220 miles per gallon with an ICE car to come off on an equal footing, which likewise will not happen.

[Mark McM]

I have been driving electric for 5 years now and have NEEDED to recharge outside of my home less than 10 times total. I have charged many more times than that outside of home but not for any real need, but rather because I had access to free charges or was going to stop anyhow (i.e. at a grocery store, restaurant, mall, gym...) and was following the ABC rule (always be charging). This IS typical of most EV owners. So the long recharge times, while out and about simply do not occur.

Given my experience, I can ensure you that the comments about all the time needed to charge an EV are the result of defective reasoning. Before faulting EV's for long recharge time, think about what you need to do with an ICE car. Every single fill up requires a detour and you vey frequently need to wait in line. When I still lived in NJ, the most commonly used gas station in my town was at the local Costco. A typical fill up required close to 10 minutes between the line and the actual filling. You cannot however precisely know how long it will take to refuel, so are obliged to always err on the side of caution or else suffer continually arriving late at your destination. This is for every single time you refuel. You are required to be personally present for even minute spent refueling, indeed many states even have laws requiring that a person be physically present. With electric, the most common situation IS a home charger that allows you to very simply recharge overnight and start each day with a full charge, therefore never needing to make any detours to recharge, as your home is absolutely on your route. The recharge of the car does indeed take more time, but you do NOT need to be PRESENT, apart from the few seconds to hook up and disconnect. You can readily go about your other affairs while recharging and not lose a single minute of your personal time. So on an annual basis you save an absolutely mind-boggling amount of time. So even if on the rare occasion (in my personal case an average of perhaps twice a year) you do need to recharge while out and about, you still save an enormous amount of time over the course of a year when compared to an ICE car.

ICE drivers don't understand how much time they waste refueling, because they have never lived with the alternative. My youngest daughter learned to drive in a EV and was told by her driving tester at the DMV that she was the first person that they had ever had turn up for the driving test in an EV. She has therefore done the large majority of her driving in EV's and now that she has flown the coop and is at university, she is faced for the first time with needing to drive ICE cars, she complains about driving ICE vehicles for the stinky gas pumps and in particular her stinky hands after refueling. She complains about the amount of time that she wastes in going to gas stations.

Every situation is different, but the picture you paint above does not reflect the reality where I live at all.

I have an ICE car that I use to commute to work, run errands, and a few long trips. Because of its 400 mile range, I only need to re-fuel about once every 3 weeks. And when I do, there are plenty of gas stations right on standard routes so no detour is required (I have so many options, I don't even have to cross lanes). I can't remember the last time I had to wait in line for a pump. So it takes a total of about 6 minutes every 3 weeks or so to refuel - and half of that time is the money transaction (which you'd still have to do at most charging stations anyway).

In contrast, I have a coworker who recently bought an EV, which he uses mostly to commute to work. He doesn't have a high-voltage charger at home (he plans to move in the next year or so, so it isn't worth installing one), so he frequently recharges it at one of the charging stations at our office park. The charging station is at the other side of the office park, and it has a 4 hour time limit. On the days he charges it, he parks it at the charger in the morning, walks to the end of the office park to work, and then half way through the work day, we walks back to the other side of the office park to retrieve the car.

It is all a matter perspective!

Yes, it is. But given the high cost and practical concerns around charging, people don't buy EVs for practical reasons of economics or convenience, they buy them because they want an EV.* So their sense of perspective is likely to be skewed.

*EVs account for about 2% or total car sales, and except for the Tesla Model 3, sales of EVs have actually been decreasing.

[benb]

That's good information.

I never have to wait in line like you do to fill up for gas but I agree it is taken for granted and most people don't think about how annoying it is.

It's way more annoying to stand there with your hand on the pump the whole time in the middle of winter than it is to plug in an EV in your garage out of the wind. My commute is short, on a day I have to fill up it's a 30-50% time increase depending on traffic to go fill the car.

That said the reason I very rarely wait in line is I go wherever. For the same reason I park far away at a mall/shopping center rather than waste time driving around for a "good" parking spot, I just go to the most convenient gas station rather than detouring to save a few cents per gallon. My wife always wants to go to the cheapest gas station to save $0.50 on the fill up so she ends up waiting in line more.

The tone of this conversation goes up and down with the price of gas.. gas has been really inexpensive the last year. Back in the 2000s we had a stretch where gas was almost 2X as expensive as it's been the last few years. We had GM and Ford designing cars and people were talking about the demise of the SUV and all that. Then things change and we get cheap gas and everyone has myopia and buys huge SUVs again to the point we've got Ford not even making cars anymore.

[benb]

All the other EVs you can actually get your hands on other than the Tesla Model 3 have major issues... I think that's part of it. The 3 is selling like crazy.

For an awful lot of us the Tesla Model S, Model X, Porsche Taycan, etc.. those are all just ridiculously priced. No thanks.

The Bolt is pretty well designed.. but ugly. And GM has no interest in supporting it.

The Leaf is great on price.. and the current gen is better, but the lack of battery/heating cooling stuff is a concern, certainly enough for me to want to pay the extra for the Model 3. And the leaf was pretty ugly. Current one is better but it's still a Nissan!

There's still too many companies who are making only token efforts for most of us to take these cars seriously. Most of the companies are more interested in extending the time period they can get high margins on ICE vehicles by the longest possible period.

I am in the habit of routinely telling people I don't want to buy another ICE car if I can help it. But I'm also quite happy it should be at least 5 years, maybe more before I have to think about a decision. Not going to get rid of my ICE car till I have to... it'd be stupid financially right now to change cars.

[oldpotatoe]

Then things change and we get cheap gas and everyone has myopia and buys huge SUVs again to the point we've got Ford not even making cars anymore.

Who thinks gas will stay around $3?? Anybody who does is myopic x1000..
Want a really good deal on that F150? Wait until gas doubles or more...
BUT expensive gas doesn't keep people from driving..SCARCE gas will..but all the other things will be more important, like finding food, medicine, ammunition, a safe place...:eek:
Yes, it is. But given the high cost and practical concerns around charging, people don't buy EVs for practical reasons of economics or convenience, they buy them because they want an EV.* So their sense of perspective is likely to be skewed.

*EVs account for about 2% or total car sales, and except for the Tesla Model 3, sales of EVs have actually been decreasing.

Yup, I don't sit in lines at the gas station either. From my house, south on 28th street, that I get on to leave Boulder, there are 5 gas stations. When EVs are as convenient and as cheap and easy as ICE..then maybe..$30K plus for a new one doesn't help either. And NO, ain't gonna lease one..

[benb]

Who thinks gas will stay around $3?? Anybody who does is myopic x1000..
Want a really good deal on that F150? Wait until gas doubles or more...
BUT expensive gas doesn't keep people from driving..SCARCE gas will..but all the other things will be more important, like finding food, medicine, ammunition, a safe place...:eek:


Yup, I don't sit in lines at the gas station either. From my house, south on 28th street, that I get on to leave Boulder, there are 5 gas stations. When EVs are as convenient and as cheap and easy as ICE..then maybe..$30K plus for a new one doesn't help either. And NO, ain't gonna lease one..

The average consumer is spending $37k on their ICE car... and financing $30k, it's not like most people can actually afford what they're buying if they're being realistic.

When you're talking about EVs costing $50k, 60k, 100k, 150k yah it's still ridiculous.

[oldpotatoe]

The average consumer is spending $37k on their ICE car... and financing $30k, it's not like most people can actually afford what they're buying if they're being realistic.

When you're talking about EVs costing $50k, 60k, 100k, 150k yah it's still ridiculous.

Not me, last car(paid cash) was about $22,000(2013 VW JSW-TDI-Yup, got as much as I paid in VW TDI-Gate fiasco)..looking at the teeny LEAF, $30K or the really ridiculous BMW EV-$44K...:eek:Even the VW GOLF EV is $30K+.
Cheapest Tesla is $39k....No Thanks....

[Ozz]

...When you're talking about EVs costing $50k, 60k, 100k, 150k yah it's still ridiculous.

You can get a used Tesla S for less than $45k (2015 - 26,800 miles - $43,900) and found one for less than $25k (2013 - 124,800 - $24,990)

I have no idea how long electric motors last, and what the mileage equivalent would be on a ICE vehicle. My impression is that they last a long time...

tires, suspension, etc would probably be same as regular car

[tomato coupe]

Every situation is different, but the picture you paint above does not reflect the reality where I live at all.

I have an ICE car that I use to commute to work, run errands, and a few long trips. Because of its 400 mile range, I only need to re-fuel about once every 3 weeks. And when I do, there are plenty of gas stations right on standard routes so no detour is required (I have so many options, I don't even have to cross lanes). I can't remember the last time I had to wait in line for a pump. So it takes a total of about 6 minutes every 3 weeks or so to refuel - and half of that time is the money transaction (which you'd still have to do at most charging stations anyway).

At an average of 20 miles per day, you would never have to use a charging station. Just plug it in at home every night.

In contrast, I have a coworker who recently bought an EV, which he uses mostly to commute to work. He doesn't have a high-voltage charger at home (he plans to move in the next year or so, so it isn't worth installing one), so he frequently recharges it at one of the charging stations at our office park. The charging station is at the other side of the office park, and it has a 4 hour time limit. On the days he charges it, he parks it at the charger in the morning, walks to the end of the office park to work, and then half way through the work day, we walks back to the other side of the office park to retrieve the car.

The only reason your friend faces all this inconvenience is because he chooses to. The remedy is obvious. Owning an EV and not having a charger at home is kind of silly.

*EVs account for about 2% or total car sales, and except for the Tesla Model 3, sales of EVs have actually been decreasing.
Bottom line: total sales of plug-in EVs have increased every year.

[Mark McM]

At an average of 20 miles per day, you would never have to use a charging station. Just plug it in at home every night.

I live in a apartment complex, and the parking lots have no access to charging.



The only reason your friend faces all this inconvenience is because he chooses to. The remedy is obvious. Owning an EV and not having a charger at home is kind of silly.

When people work out the costs of operating an EV, do they include the cost of buying and installing a charger?

Also, what about the many people who live in cities, many of whom don't even have off-street parking? How are they to charge their EVs?

[AngryScientist]

When people work out the costs of operating an EV, do they include the cost of buying and installing a charger?

Also, what about the many people who live in cities, many of whom don't even have off-street parking? How are they to charge their EVs?

good points. the only people who can be expected to have access to at home quick charging is homeowners, and not even all of them. it's not uncommon around here to own a home and not even have a driveway, street parking only. additionally, if you rent an apartment, in a private home or apartment complex, it's unrealistic to think you'd install a charging station on someone else's property.

this is not, of course, an insignificant amount of people in this situation.

i have always thought that city dwellers who have a short commute and local errand running capability are ideal EV customers, but the charging thing/location is not a trivial matter.

[benb]

There are plenty of apartment communities that already have charging stations.

If the market wants EV charging stations at apartments the property owners put them in.

No different than dog washing rooms, fancy on sight gyms, concierge services and any of the other things that have gone in.

[benb]

Bottom line: total sales of plug-in EVs have increased every year.

The Model 3 has sucked all the oxygen out of the market...

They ramped up from 0 to 100k/quarter in the last 2 years.

Some of these companies haven't produced that many EVs since they started.

[tomato coupe]

I live in a apartment complex, and the parking lots have no access to charging.

Also, what about the many people who live in cities, many of whom don't even have off-street parking? How are they to charge their EVs?

People in the above situations may find that EVs are not viable transportation options.

When people work out the costs of operating an EV, do they include the cost of buying and installing a charger?
They should.

[Ozz]

....i have always thought that city dwellers who have a short commute and local errand running capability are ideal EV customers, but the charging thing/location is not a trivial matter.

City and apartment dwellers are ideal ZipCar users....;)

Was meeting with co-worker from Portland earlier this week...she lives in Pearl District (urban, downtown area)....she told me she does not own a car and let her license lapse. She and her husband walk and Uber everywhere they need to go.

BTW - cost of installing charging station runs $700 to $5000 depending on when house was built, where electrical panel is located (garage vs basement), whether it needs to upgraded, whether you want/need 120vor 240v charging and length of charging cable to reach vehicle.

My impression is that there are still tax credits available for buying EV, but some sort of cap of $60K price tag. Not sure how this works.....this thread has got me thinking about an EV for my wife.

[pasadena]

This is reality. A great post.

The major manufacturers haven't taken EV's seriously, except to develop technology.

That will change with VAG going all in w over 66 billion euros invested in EV's and their own batteries below $100/kwh. That's below what Tesla can do, and is very important in making affordable, mainstream EV's.
They will have a full range of EV's within 10 yrs.


Every situation is different, but the picture you paint above does not reflect the reality where I live at all.

I have an ICE car that I use to commute to work, run errands, and a few long trips. Because of its 400 mile range, I only need to re-fuel about once every 3 weeks. And when I do, there are plenty of gas stations right on standard routes so no detour is required (I have so many options, I don't even have to cross lanes). I can't remember the last time I had to wait in line for a pump. So it takes a total of about 6 minutes every 3 weeks or so to refuel - and half of that time is the money transaction (which you'd still have to do at most charging stations anyway).

In contrast, I have a coworker who recently bought an EV, which he uses mostly to commute to work. He doesn't have a high-voltage charger at home (he plans to move in the next year or so, so it isn't worth installing one), so he frequently recharges it at one of the charging stations at our office park. The charging station is at the other side of the office park, and it has a 4 hour time limit. On the days he charges it, he parks it at the charger in the morning, walks to the end of the office park to work, and then half way through the work day, we walks back to the other side of the office park to retrieve the car.



Yes, it is. But given the high cost and practical concerns around charging, people don't buy EVs for practical reasons of economics or convenience, they buy them because they want an EV.* So their sense of perspective is likely to be skewed.

*EVs account for about 2% or total car sales, and except for the Tesla Model 3, sales of EVs have actually been decreasing.

[pasadena]

You can get a used Tesla S for less than $45k (2015 - 26,800 miles - $43,900) and found one for less than $25k (2013 - 124,800 - $24,990)

I have no idea how long electric motors last, and what the mileage equivalent would be on a ICE vehicle. My impression is that they last a long time...

tires, suspension, etc would probably be same as regular car

There is no assumption or guarantee on any used car.
Even through Tesla, you pay top dollar for a used one, and they don't really check them over. But, at least you will have a warranty.

Be aware that Tesla has been pulling features like auto-pilot out of used cars even though you bought it that way.

Say you buy a used Tesla 2nd hand, it has Ludicrious Speed and Autopilot. You bring it in to Tesla to repair something. They update the software and without telling you, remove those features claiming you didn't pay for them.
that's $8000 of your car gone.

Tires, suspension, brakes will have more frequent service intervals. They are heavy vehicles.
brakes, more so because of non-use, they tend to rot unless you're in a climate like socal.

If you'e willing to roll the dice, and willing to either pay and wait for Tesla service or find a 3rd party mechanic that knows what they are doing, Model S might be a good deal.

They are cool cars. The Model 3 is supposed to be a better car. I have a couple friends with the 3, and it's nice.
The S is great, bit wide in the city, but nice as well.
The 3 new is probably the best choice, since at the moment, used 3's are not much less, and from all accounts, is a better vehicle all around than the S (unless you need the size)

As Mark McM said, many are willing to make their life fit the vehicle because they want a Tesla.
Most people want a product that fits their lifestyle, and may become unhappy with all the hidden caveats.

[Ozz]

There is no assumption or guarantee on any used car.....
All good points....I was mainly responding to a previous point that EVs are too expensive....I get that all bets are off with a used car...but you can get one for under $40k

For my wife I thinking more along the lines of a new Audi eTron....current one is too big for what she needs...would rather have one more the size of the Q5.

[benb]

The major manufacturers haven't taken EV's seriously, except to develop technology.

That will change with VAG going all in w over 66 billion euros invested in EV's and their own batteries below $100/kwh. That's below what Tesla can do, and is very important in making affordable, mainstream EV's.
They will have a full range of EV's within 10 yrs.

The major manufacturers haven't even done this.. most of the cars are just bolt togethers from off the shelf EV components from 3rd party suppliers.

Teslas the only one that's gotten it on integration. They make almost everything important themselves. Batteries, motors (there motors are smaller/lighter/more efficient), controllers, etc..

It's good that VAG is going to invest in their own batteries but they'll be a decade behind by the time they ship a car with their own batteries so it's a bit pie in the sky to think they'll actually come out of the gate ahead of Tesla and others. And It's VAG, so I'll believe it when I see it.

[cmg]

What's inside a Tesla motor? Now you know. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tesla+motors&docid=608004357398858862&mid=33AD26F2C520E61320C133AD26F2C520E61320C1&view=detail&FORM=VIRE no oil changes, brushless, only thing to replace is the bearings?

[pasadena]

66 billion euros on batteries, giga factory and infrastructure to build cars. along with partners.
The new ID series EV's will start rolling out next year.

It's not Tesla vs. everyone else. That's a consumer mentality.

In business, they will all work together in some respect, and they will all benefit from it.
EV is too small and still developing technology to be playing us vs. them games.

The major manufacturers haven't even done this.. most of the cars are just bolt togethers from off the shelf EV components from 3rd party suppliers.

Teslas the only one that's gotten it on integration. They make almost everything important themselves. Batteries, motors (there motors are smaller/lighter/more efficient), controllers, etc..

It's good that VAG is going to invest in their own batteries but they'll be a decade behind by the time they ship a car with their own batteries so it's a bit pie in the sky to think they'll actually come out of the gate ahead of Tesla and others. And It's VAG, so I'll believe it when I see it.

[josephr]

66 billion euros on batteries, giga factory and infrastructure to build cars. along with partners.
The new ID series EV's will start rolling out next year.

It's not Tesla vs. everyone else. That's a consumer mentality.

In business, they will all work together in some respect, and they will all benefit from it.
EV is too small and still developing technology to be playing us vs. them games.

You need updated information....Tesla is way ahead of the competition in terms of manufacturing and vehicle design. Except for the Leaf and the Bolt, any other EV being made out there to compete with Tesla is an adapted body of an ICE vehicle.

Other advantages:
-Tesla's vehicle management system is self-built proprietary system. Everyone else partners with Bosch, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, LG, Fuji, TIS, Magna, ZF, Aisin.......and the list goes on forever. And all of these systems have to be integrated into the vehicle's main computer. VW just announced a few months ago they were investing into building their own system to work across their entire spectrum.

-Tesla owns their entire battery and motor systems----all the way from R&D to manufacture. GM and everyone else are reliant on battery/motor systems from LG (in the case of GM,others) and Nissan sold its battery division a couple of years ago to a company called AESC.

-What's been the holdup on the Model Y has been the use of a robotics system which 'prints' the vehicle's electric harness onto the body/frame of the car. I'm not 100% on this, but this system was proven long before expected and thus able to start manufacture sooner on the Y.

Tesla is what happens when bureaucratic business models become bloated, lazy, and unable to entertain new ways of thinking.

[Louis]

You need updated information....Tesla is way ahead of the competition in terms of manufacturing and vehicle design.

The Model S is pretty cool, the Model 3 is so-so, but IMO the X and the Y are about as plain as a loaf of bread.

https://s.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/788x525/quality/85/https://s.aolcdn.com/commerce/autodata/images/USC60TSS011C021001.jpg

https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-68499546,width-643,imgsize-73609,resizemode-4/tesla-model-y-new-electric-vehicle-will-go-the-extra-mile-for-your-safety.jpg

[smontanaro]

66 billion euros on batteries, giga factory and infrastructure to build cars. along with partners.
The new ID series EV's will start rolling out next year.

It's not Tesla vs. everyone else. That's a consumer mentality.

In business, they will all work together in some respect, and they will all benefit from it.
EV is too small and still developing technology to be playing us vs. them games.

Didn't Tesla effectively open source a ton of patents at one point? Ah, yes, here it is:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

[saab2000]

My Tesla stock is doing well. Not selling. It will either go bust or go crazy high I think.

Everything I read and watch indicates that Tesla is far ahead in terms of AI, driving data collection, battery technology and on schedule with their long-term goals.

[josephr]

The Model S is pretty cool, the Model 3 is so-so, but IMO the X and the Y are about as plain as a loaf of bread.



aesthetically speaking...you're right...I'm really speaking towards the design in terms of manufacturability and systems integration. From that perspective, they're at least 5-7 years ahead of anybody else.

[smontanaro]

aesthetically speaking...you're right...I'm really speaking towards the design in terms of manufacturability and systems integration. From that perspective, they're at least 5-7 years ahead of anybody else.

Even just in terms of aesthetics, I think the Tesla 3 looks pretty good (less so the Model S). There's a good reason that cars like Tesla and Prius need to be distinctive. They do need to stand out. While I never liked the Prius styling, I'm sure it worked to Toyota's advantage. I think the space has changed now, but early on, the Prius dramatically outsold Corolla and Camry hybrids. The Prius said, "Hey, I care about the environment." Neither the Corolla nor Camry hybrids were obvious in that regard.

The same goes for Tesla. I live in Chicago's North Shore (Evanston). Especially in the wealthier suburbs further north (Wilmette, Winnetka, Glencoe, Highland Park) Teslas are everywhere. There's even a Tesla store in Highland Park. Five years ago I think the standard car was some flavor of Volvo SUV. I think there is very much a "keeping up with the Joneses" aspect to these trends. For that, visual distinction matters a great deal. This Grist article from a couple days ago reminded me of that:

https://grist.org/climate/could-fomo-and-peer-pressure-help-save-us-all/

These same social forces can also be harnessed to take on climate change, as individual decisions gather strength. “Flight shame” has recently taken off in Europe, reviving rail travel as people opt to take fewer flights. In the United States, the meatless Impossible Burger has surged in popularity, making its way to Burger Kings everywhere. The transportation industry is also susceptible to peer pressure, Frank writes in his book, and lucky us: Bike-share services and electric cars are on the rise.

[Elefantino]

VW is coming. Not soon enough, and it's not bringing the new iD.3 to the US market (yet), but it's coming. And its deal with Ford is big. The first real challenge to Tesla.

I'd buy an iD.3 in a minute. Particularly the GTE version, which reportedly has a 342-mile range.

https://www.neoadviser.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Volkswagen-ID.3.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

VW is coming. Not soon enough, and it's not bringing the new iD.3 to the US market (yet), but it's coming. And its deal with Ford is big. The first real challenge to Tesla.

I'd buy an iD.3 in a minute. Particularly the GTE version, which reportedly has a 342-mile range.

https://www.neoadviser.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Volkswagen-ID.3.jpg

US version is supposedly a 'ID CROZZ'..and $45k..ouch...

https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id-crozz

[Elefantino]

US version is supposedly a 'ID CROZZ'..and $45k..ouch...

https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id-crozz
That's the iD.4, the first one we'll get, followed closely by the Microbus at ... gulp! ... $70k. Double ouch.

They'll bring the iD.3 here eventually.

[oldpotatoe]

That's the iD.4, the first one we'll get, followed closely by the Microbus at ... gulp! ... $70k. Double ouch.

They'll bring the iD.3 here eventually.

Yup, glad I'm probably on my last car...:)

[jimcav]

That's the iD.4, the first one we'll get, followed closely by the Microbus at ... gulp! ... $70k. Double ouch.

They'll bring the iD.3 here eventually.

WTH! I was so taken with the idea of a VW microbus inspired EV. I was a little kid watching my mom work that 3 ft long stick shift and getting blown all over the road in high winds in the original bus. dang, well I'll have to buy a used one in 3-5 years I guess. That sucks, guess i need to research an alternate like maybe a biodiesel update for my current truck

[Drmojo]

this Tesla is $100k +
E micro bus: reported 375 hph and 375 range
and self driving
A bargain if you ask me!