Velonews article-Ebikes at Fondos and group rides

[oldpotatoe]

'Performance' e-bikes..NO doubt this will descend into a ebike 'discussion'..altho
I get the ebike commuter/cargo/errand/shopping gig..the 'performance' ebike..don't get that at all? What is the point of a 'performance' ebike?
These aren’t machines for a quiet Sunday spin; they’re for committed, enthusiast road riders looking for a way to enjoy longer, faster rides more comfortably, and maybe for a bit of a boost to ward off that inevitable age-related decline in personal power output.

Longer and faster via electrons?..kinda the "Rosie Ruiz" syndrome, IMHO. Seems like putting your computer in your car to cheat on your Strava numbers..

Don't get it.

https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/culture/its-happening-now-e-bikes-at-gran-fondos-and-group-rides_504324

[joosttx]

Performance MTB ebikes makes sense... gets you plus 30 pounds up the mountain so you can shred down it. For the road I fail to see the need.

[Tony]

Performance MTB ebikes makes sense... gets you plus 30 pounds up the mountain so you can shred down it. For the road I fail to see the need.

E rode bikes make hills easier too.

[Tony]

'Performance' e-bikes..NO doubt this will descend into a ebike 'discussion'..altho
I get the ebike commuter/cargo/errand/shopping gig..the 'performance' ebike..don't get that at all? What is the point of a 'performance' ebike?


Longer and faster via electrons?..kinda the "Rosie Ruiz" syndrome, IMHO. Seems like putting your computer in your car to cheat on your Strava numbers..

Don't get it.

https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/culture/its-happening-now-e-bikes-at-gran-fondos-and-group-rides_504324

E bikes are for anyone who wants to go farther and faster. People ride for different reasons, not all are chasing Strava. With E bikes folks are now capable of enjoying certain rides, climbs and the company of friends that they may not without assistance. With performance E bikes they just blend in with the rest of us/group.

[Dude]

Ebikes are straight up fun to ride. Project whatever reason about the riders you want onto them. If someone shows up on your group ride with an ebike and they are a nice person, who cares what kind of bike they have.

I understand that you don’t understand performance ebikes, and that’s okay. I don’t understand why people like downtube shifters but they do.

[FlashUNC]

E rode bikes make hills easier too.

Motorcycles make them easier still.

[sitzmark]

Keeping a group of riders together, maybe???
Have a ride buddy who can no longer hang with the group (for many reasons) and refuses to “slow us down” when invited. A performance e-bike could change that. He refuses to consider as an option, however.

[prototoast]

Don't forget about the social aspect of riding, particularly between people of different ability levels. I wish I could convince my wife to ride an ebike from time to time. She's a great sport and will go on lots of bike rides with me, but she's a little bit slower and struggles more with the hills, so when we ride together, we can't do some of my favorite routaes that are longer and with a little more climbing than she could handle.

She is adamant that she does not want to have any mechanical assistance, and only wants to ride what she can earn with her own two legs. I certainly respect that, and wouldn't force her to get an e-bike, but on days when I want to ride big and she wants to ride with me, sometimes I wouldn't have to compromise.

[Tony]

Don't forget about the social aspect of riding, particularly between people of different ability levels. I wish I could convince my wife to ride an ebike from time to time. She's a great sport and will go on lots of bike rides with me, but she's a little bit slower and struggles more with the hills, so when we ride together, we can't do some of my favorite routaes that are longer and with a little more climbing than she could handle.

She is adamant that she does not want to have any mechanical assistance, and only wants to ride what she can earn with her own two legs. I certainly respect that, and wouldn't force her to get an e-bike, but on days when I want to ride big and she wants to ride with me, sometimes I wouldn't have to compromise.

Bet if she tried an E bike very good chance it would change her mind.

[redir]

E-Bikes are by definition motor bikes. They are fun to ride for sure but this is just out of control. They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition. I fully support the ADA. But laziness is not a disability :D

[Tony]

E-Bikes are by definition motor bikes. They are fun to ride for sure but this is just out of control. They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition. I fully support the ADA. But laziness is not a disability :D

I think there’s a tremendous amount of privilege in saying this.

[XXtwindad]

'Performance' e-bikes..NO doubt this will descend into a ebike 'discussion'..altho
I get the ebike commuter/cargo/errand/shopping gig..the 'performance' ebike..don't get that at all? What is the point of a 'performance' ebike?


Longer and faster via electrons?..kinda the "Rosie Ruiz" syndrome, IMHO. Seems like putting your computer in your car to cheat on your Strava numbers..

Don't get it.

https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/culture/its-happening-now-e-bikes-at-gran-fondos-and-group-rides_504324

Really interesting article. But I don't think it's gonna happen. I'm willing to bet, based on almost fifteen years as a personal trainer, that the manufacturers of "high-end" performance eBikes are chasing their tails. I mentioned this in a recent thread as well. It simply goes against human nature. To participate in a Gran Fondo, there is an underlying assumption that you have to enjoy movement to begin with. To expect a whole coterie of newbies to embrace distance riding because of a motor is wishful thinking.

There's a reason I was shocked to encounter an eBiker on a recreational ride in the East Bay hills: I'd never seen one before. And haven't seen one since.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=244419&highlight=ensues

[XXtwindad]

Motorcycles make them easier still.

Are you making a correlation between eBikes and motorcycles? Just curious.

[redir]

I think there’s a tremendous amount of privilege in saying this.

I'm willing to listen and perhaps even learn something.

[FlashUNC]

Are you making a correlation between eBikes and motorcycles? Just curious.

Ding ding ding.

If we're looking to minimize effort to enjoy the outdoors, skip the mopeds in road bike cosplay and just go buy a motorcycle.

[eddief]

and keep up in the middle of the pack of my old farts riding groups. i am afraid to try a speedy ebike cuz i don't think my constitution is strong enough to resist. think if i get one i will never ride non-e ever again. talk about fear of being sucked over the dark side. first brifters, then carbon, then electronic shifting, then disc brakes, now e.

[MikeD]

'Performance' e-bikes..NO doubt this will descend into a ebike 'discussion'..altho

I get the ebike commuter/cargo/errand/shopping gig..the 'performance' ebike..don't get that at all? What is the point of a 'performance' ebike?





Longer and faster via electrons?..kinda the "Rosie Ruiz" syndrome, IMHO. Seems like putting your computer in your car to cheat on your Strava numbers..



Don't get it.



https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/culture/its-happening-now-e-bikes-at-gran-fondos-and-group-rides_504324



This article is a bit disingenuous. Most "performance" ebikes are Class 1 bikes, which have a 20 mph cutoff. They don't help in fast paceline rides. The lightest bikes weigh about 28 pounds. Most Class 3 bikes (28 mph cutoff) weigh about 50 pounds and are not considered performance ebikes. In the EU, ebikes have a cutoff speed of 15.5 mph. Most of the time, you are riding in low power mode; if you don't you run out of power fast. This article is a bunch of whining about nothing.

[Tony]

I'm willing to listen and perhaps even learn something.

Saying only riders with a condition belong on E bikes. You are also saying that only folks with a certain fitness level are capable and privileged of enjoying certain rides, climbs.

[adrien]

Interesting.

Around here, I see a lot of e-bikes on the local trails. These seem to me to be mostly commuters, zipping along at 20 mph and, I presume, taking a car off the road. That doesn't bother me, except when they don't have the skills or the etiquette to ride that speed. That's not the bike, it's the person. There are plenty of pathletes on high-end road bikes who ride like a-holes.

As a local ride leader, I can tell you we won't let them on our rides -- much like tri bikes, or bikes without clipless pedals. The logic is that their pacing is inconsistent with a group, and as such they represent a bit of a risk. I do think it would be interesting if one of our regulars showed up with one, though.

As for me, I like the idea of being able to extent my cycling in the future, as I age or, God forbid, that I face an illness that reduces my ability to ride.

[joosttx]

E rode bikes make hills easier too.

I was writing about performance bikes. Of course roads have hills. Since manufacturers make performance MTB downhill bikes. I think it makes sense for performance ebike downhill MTB. Motor up shred down. I don’t think the same thing happens in road biking.

[Tony]

Ding ding ding.

If we're looking to minimize effort to enjoy the outdoors, skip the mopeds in road bike cosplay and just go buy a motorcycle.

Have you been on a E bike? Comments like this make me think that many here who comment have never been on one?

[FlashUNC]

Have you been on a E bike? Comments like this make me think that many here who comment have never been on one?

I have, cargo and commuter. They fill a real need in the market and are invaluable for that purpose.

"performance" e-road bike is an anachronism.

[benb]

This article is a bit disingenuous. Most "performance" ebikes are Class 1 bikes, which have a 20 mph cutoff. They don't help in fast paceline rides. The lightest bikes weigh about 28 pounds. Most Class 3 bikes (28 mph cutoff) weigh about 50 pounds and are not considered performance ebikes. In the EU, ebikes have a cutoff speed of 15.5 mph. Most of the time, you are riding in low power mode; if you don't you run out of power fast. This article is a bunch of whining about nothing.

No this is a joke to say this.

Even if an ebike has a 15mph cutoff it's still a massive assist unless you live in Florida. Any place with steep hills where the riders are not Pro/1/2 level is going to have uphill sections where the group is doing less than 15mph and the guys without an eBike are probably having to put out 300-400w to hold 10-15mph up the grade. Erasing those efforts with the eBike is a massive help . As soon as you get to the flats the guy on the eBike gets the same 30% drafting benefit as everyone else and is probably using very little battery on the flats unless they're pulling. The eBike guy might actually get an even bigger aero savings drafting in the group because the eBike is likely to be less aero to begin with.

I see two cases for riding with an eBike in a group:

- Group is very small (2-3?) and it's a friendly social get together between two riders of very different fitness levels, probably an easy pace ride whether an eBike is involved at all

- Have the eBike guys come along and act as a motorpace. (This seems intriguing & valuable IMO.)

If it's a team/fitness oriented group ride I don't see why you wouldn't ban them. And I think it is 100% justified to ban a flat bar bike, a lot of these rides already ban flat bar bikes and tri-bikes that don't have a motor.

For a charity event it's probably a very gray area. The goal should be to raise money, if including eBikes turns out to raise more money they could be included. If it scares away enough non-e riders to cause less money to be raised than ban them.

[lavi]

There is some truth to don't knock it until you've tried it. That said, I likely won't ever pay to own one. I'd surely take one as a gift or prize though.

I started off staunchly opposed. My buddy and I have been going to Sea Otter Classic for over 15 years or so. We started seeing the E's creep in a handful of years back. We snickered. Those bikes rapidly multiplied over the years. Last year (and the previous year), E's where literally everywhere. We ride them at Sea Otter just to check them out. Ridiculous fun! It's not the same as going out on a spirited ride. But for cruising (even long rides) they are very enjoyable. Pound hills with immunity..or just not to die going up them. We ride side by side smiling and laughing. It's lots of fun.

A few years ago Levi Leip showed up to race Sea Otter solo (no team support). It was cool seeing Levi there. After whatever race my buddy passed Levi riding up one of the steep hills around the track perimeter. He said the look on Levi's face was priceless. :butt:

Anyhow, I don't think I'd take them for group rides. Here in Portland, I'd get booed out of the ride. I think it'd take huge balls for someone to show up to a group ride on one.

I regularly now get passed by E's on rides. I'll admit that sometimes it wrankles me. Then I ask myself "why?". It's all good. Those folks are going to from something the same as me.

For tootling around with family, friends, or solo...they are lots of fun. I'd take one over a motorcycle or scooter. They are not the same thing. It's still a bicycle. It's still fun. It's just different. As Wim Hof would say, "breath in the peace and out with the stress".

Lastly, here's what I'd like to try. I forget where I heard this....for mtb/trails rides....UPHILL JUMPS! What fun. I gotta try this.

[2LeftCleats]

I can certainly see the benefit for commuting and casual rides. But the two issues discussed in the article that raise concern are use in competition. One is the “unfairness factor”, which could be handicapped in some fashion. The other is safety. Someone who hasn’t “earned” their speed is a potential danger in an already hazardous situation.

[GregL]

My $0.02 (and worth exactly that...):

- e-bikes taking the place of cars (commuter, cargo, delivery, etc...) = good

- e-bikes for general riding, touring/sightseeing purposes, allowing seniors to get out and see natural sites, etc... = good. Caveat: limited speeds (e.g., no more than 15-20 MPH under power) to lower risks of loss of control and collisions.

- e-bikes on group road rides = bad. Same reason nearly all group road rides don't allow people to ride on aero bars. Too much risk due to the dissimilar equipment.

I tend to be a "live and let live" person. As long as e-bikes are used in safe, respectful manners, I'm happy to see people enjoy them. However, when they become essentially electric motorcycles capable of high speeds, then I become concerned. My family will take our annual vacation to Acadia National Park in June. I'm curious about the number of e-bikes I will see. The park now allows Class 1 e-bikes in accordance with the recent federal rule change. Hopefully the carriage roads will still be reasonably safe...

Greg

[wallymann]

Don't get it.

i generally agree, but i do see circumstances where e-bikes are honorable.

imagine wanting to do group rides with your buddies, but for whatever reason your buddies are a lot stronger than you (maybe medical, maybe circumstance of life, maybe something else)...and you still want to partake of the camaraderie and fellowship from riding with your mates.

having a legacy of competitive riding, but advancing years make go-fast riding medically infeasible...but you still have the itch to ride fast. think lennard zinn or sean yates -- the latter is an ex-pro-super-badass, yet due to medical conditions can only ride an e-bike.

[lavi]

Also, and not that it totally matters to this discussion, I think most mtb trail orgs have strict bans on E's. As far as I've seen, it's a total no go.

I could see locals absolutely hounding/chasing off any riders ignorant enough to show up on one.

[XXtwindad]

Also, and not that it totally matters to this discussion, I think most mtb trail orgs have strict bans on E's. As far as I've seen, it's a total no go.

I could see locals absolutely hounding/chasing off any riders ignorant enough to show up on one.

With good reason. The equestrians and hikers already want to kick our asses off the trail.

[benb]

News flash motorcycles are fun too.

And motorcycle group rides (assuming behavior stays vaguely below ludicrous speed) are in many many ways more fun that group bicycle rides. Moto group ride culture is really fantastic. Everyone is just out to have a good time and there's no suffering involved and none of the philosophical "rewards of hard work" stuff that is a key part of bicycling.

If this really becomes such a conflict you could just have eBike group rides. Ban the regular bikes. No one is going let you show up on your Trek when everyone else is on a Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki/Ducati today already.

[lavi]

With good reason. The equestrians and hikers already want to kick our asses off the trail.

Concur.

[redir]

Saying only riders with a condition belong on E bikes. You are also saying that only folks with a certain fitness level are capable and privileged of enjoying certain rides, climbs.

That's not what I said, that's what you made up what I said. For example show me where I said, "only riders with a condition belong on E bikes." See what I mean? You made that part up.

eBikes are motorbikes and thankfully so far in our national parks system here in Virgina it states that, "Electric bikes (e-bikes) are considered motor vehicles and can be used on Forest System lands only where motor vehicles are allowed."

The only acceptation I take with that is that it doesn't cover people under ADA. Do you know what ADA is? It has nothing to do with fitness level.

[MikeD]

Performance MTB ebikes makes sense... gets you plus 30 pounds up the mountain so you can shred down it. For the road I fail to see the need.


Unfortunately, ebikes are banned from many (most, I think) trails in public parks, at least where I live in the SF East Bay; EBRPD parks, for instance.

[Tony]

That's not what I said, that's what you made up what I said. For example show me where I said, "only riders with a condition belong on E bikes." See what I mean? You made that part up.

eBikes are motorbikes and thankfully so far in our national parks system here in Virgina it states that, "Electric bikes (e-bikes) are considered motor vehicles and can be used on Forest System lands only where motor vehicles are allowed."

The only acceptation I take with that is that it doesn't cover people under ADA. Do you know what ADA is? It has nothing to do with fitness level.

"They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition"

[pasadena]

e-bikes aren't for people on forums like this.

They will open options for more people to come into cycling. A bicycle is a tool. The ones that can see the benefit of that tool, will enjoy using it.
If it's no benefit to you, than it's a useless tool-to you. That doesn't mean it's a bad tool, it just means you're ignorant.

I'm excited at the huge market growth of e-bikes

In a recreational, road e-bike I can see many valuable uses. I've seen it first hand, as something really life-changing. Health is a fragile thing, and i've seen the e-bike keep someone riding with the fellas on their weekly group ride.
That's worth it's weight in gold. In his shoes, you would feel the same.

This is nice too for a couple to enjoy a cycle holiday together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmKAj4EEsXU

[Tony]

e-bikes aren't for people on forums like this.

They will open options for more people to come into cycling. A bicycle is a tool. The ones that can see the benefit of that tool, will enjoy using it.
If it's no benefit to you, than it's a useless tool-to you. That doesn't mean it's a bad tool, it just means you're ignorant.

I'm excited at the huge market growth of e-bikes

In a recreational, road e-bike I can see many valuable uses. I've seen it first hand, as something really life-changing. Health is a fragile thing, and i've seen the e-bike keep someone riding with the fellas on their weekly group ride.
That's worth it's weight in gold. In his shoes, you would feel the same.

This is nice too for a couple to enjoy a cycle holiday together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmKAj4EEsXU

keep up, keep on, and see more with friends!

[wallymann]

If this really becomes such a conflict you could just have eBike group rides. Ban the regular bikes. No one is going let you show up on your Trek when everyone else is on a Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki/Ducati today already.

oh GREAT...now we can look forward to e-bike squids?!?!

https://badasshelmetstore.com/wp-content/uploads/Motorcycle-Squids-.jpg

[zap]

First group ride this past weekend where someone was hanging while cycling on an ebike. In the past this person was never on these higher pace rides and it showed in their lack of paceline skills.

Additionally, close to the end of the 64 mile hilly ride the cyclists and ebike bonked massively.

Other cycling groups in our area do not "permit" ebikes on group rides.

If the individual was experienced and was on an ebike for whatever reason, I would be accepting. So really, what it comes down to, ebike or not, don't be an idiot.

[robt57]

While not been on ride with folks on a higher perform/e-bike. Like Doman-E with the 28mph turbo. The ones I have ridden along have assist to like 20mph. Even my old ars had no problem in a 30 mile ride losing this bikes early in the ride.

In this case the rider was testing it out for his wife for whom it was purchased for. He rides a normal road bike and has good skills in all but the tightest pace line situation. So no issue in his case with causing mayhem in a group on it.

My question is could you outlast the e-bike battery on a very spirited ride? And the e-bike winding up bringing up the rear on a bike a lot heavier with a depleted battery.

Also been on a hilly ride with a beefy high end recumbent big wheel high performance machine. I was the only one to show up due to moisture, we rode anyway.

I have no way to know what throttling was going on, but got toasted by mile 20-25 watching him go up the road/hills after the first 10 which I had to ride hard... My first bonk in 20+ years on that one. Forgot to eat, so much for all the decades of experience I guess...

[benb]

For me on a personal level I don't understand the appeal of even showing up to a testosterone laden ride where the old adage of "if 2 riders meet up a race happens" applies if I know I need the "assistance" of an eBike.

I only want to go on those rides when my head is screwed up in the particular ways where I've been punishing myself to be as fast as I can. As soon as I'm off that wagon of being fairly obsessed about my fitness I lose all motivation to go on any of those rides. It's like they only exist to test your fitness in my mind. There's nothing particular social or redeeming really about those super hard/fast rides for me. I've done a lot of them, every year I get older I lose a little more motivation to do them. It's just less hassle to go ride by myself or just meet up with 1-2 people.

If I know my fitness is off or I'm not even trying I don't really want to go on those rides. For one thing they tend to be more dangerous than riding alone or sticking to a more relaxed/slower ride.

So by definition if I end up with an eBike and that's what I'm riding I'm sure I will already be beyond that weird mental threshold where I want to go on one of those rides.

Likewise really long/tough events. I've done events/rides up to 150 miles. I'm not going to get an eBike to do a 200 mile event, there wouldn't be any sense of satisfaction in that for me. I don't *need* to do a 200 mile event, the only reason I want to do it is to challenge myself. If I needed an eBike I'd know I had gotten to the point where I couldn't do it and I'm fine with that. The idea of using the eBike to erase the huge preparation need to do a ride like that also doesn't appeal to me at all. That whole fitness journey of getting ready for a monster ride/event is more fun IMO than the actual event. (I realize talking about using an eBike for a 200 mile event is contrived as they probably don't last long enough to get to the end of that and then they're just a handicap, but that day will come.)

All just me personally, YMMV.

[benb]

oh GREAT...now we can look forward to e-bike squids?!?!

https://badasshelmetstore.com/wp-content/uploads/Motorcycle-Squids-.jpg

That makes me wonder what happens if you show up with the eHarley-Davidson to a moto group ride.

Do you get shunned? Those guys really like to shun people who don't have just the right bike.

[redir]

"They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition"

Again, I didn't say what you said. You can ride your ebike elsewhere, that is not ONLY. Suffice to say I'm glad the rules in my state are on my side and that motor bikes are not aloud on the trails. You can however ride them where ever else motor bikes are aloud and that includes a lot of fire roads through the woods which would be nice fun to ride on. Under federal law though there should be an ADA exception.

[joosttx]

Unfortunately, ebikes are banned from many (most, I think) trails in public parks, at least where I live in the SF East Bay; EBRPD parks, for instance.



I didn’t know that. I think they are allowed everywhere a MTB is in Marin. At least I see plenty of them on the trails here.

https://www.marinbike.org/news/offroad/e-bikes-to-be-allowed-on-marin-headlands-trails-fire-roads-under-proposed-rule-change/

My take more people on bikes the better. Just make it safe.

[FlashUNC]

I've got some friends who are really good at rock climbing, but I'm bad at it and likely will never be as good as them given the time and effort they put in, what with my bum shoulder and all.

So I bought this great 30 foot extension ladder so I can scale the cliff face alongside them.

It's still rock climbing, just at my own ability level, okay?

[XXtwindad]

I've got some friends who are really good at rock climbing, but I'm bad at it and likely will never be as good as them given the time and effort they put in, what with my bum shoulder and all.

So I bought this great 30 foot extension ladder so I can scale the cliff face alongside them.

It's still rock climbing, just at my own ability level, okay?

The depths of your "subcultural tribalism" are astonishing :)

[R3awak3n]

I've got some friends who are really good at rock climbing, but I'm bad at it and likely will never be as good as them given the time and effort they put in, what with my bum shoulder and all.

So I bought this great 30 foot extension ladder so I can scale the cliff face alongside them.

It's still rock climbing, just at my own ability level, okay?

as long as you not bothering anybody, get an escalator to take you up that mountain but its not really up to me to judge what you should or should not do.

[XXtwindad]

I've got some friends who are really good at rock climbing, but I'm bad at it and likely will never be as good as them given the time and effort they put in, what with my bum shoulder and all.

So I bought this great 30 foot extension ladder so I can scale the cliff face alongside them.

It's still rock climbing, just at my own ability level, okay?

Also, if you opt not to use the ladder, escalator, or be propped up by your own lofty rhetoric, I think you might consider bands to rehab your shoulder, and gradually works towards doing a few pull-ups....

[FlashUNC]

The depths of your "subcultural tribalism" are astonishing :)

The mental gymnastics and weak rationales fat MAMILs will go to in justifying the fact they still want to climb the hills they used to but are precluded from also astonishing.

Riding a bike is damn hard. There's no shame in doing it slower. But hey, I get it, it's ego and self-worth and all that stuff wrapped up in whether folks can still hang with the Saturday morning A ride.

But I guess it's cheaper than south of the border HGH and an EPO regimen.

Its interesting that every argument for "performance" road ebikes is about keeping up with the group, and not one of the users ever asks the inverse of, hey, why doesn't the group just slow down to accommodate everyone? If the goal of the ride is to keep everyone together at all costs, pace should be at the effort of the weakest rider, right? Instead, the absurd logic is make that poor person go buy some ebike so they can hang? It's madness.

Back in the dark ages of 2012, we had this guy in Charlotte who'd show up for the Saturday ride named Jeff. Guy was in his mid 70s at the time, maybe even pushing 80. Hard as nails. Could he rip legs off with legendary pulls on the front? No. In fact, he sat in like a champ, would immediately rotate through, and we were fine with that as we all moderated the pace to something that was fine for all of us and Jeff. Why? Cuz he was a nice dude who liked to ride, we all still got a decent workout in, and I'm sure we'd all like the same kind of courtesy if we're lucky enough to still be riding when we're freakin 80. And he told great stories from racing way back in the day. That helps.

Jeff didn't need a "performance" road ebike. He needed a group with a basic sense of human empathy.

ebikes have a purpose, but all this faaf about keeping with the group is all just deep seated insecurity about what we all do: Lose to Father Time.

More Jeffs and groups who welcome Jeffs, less "performance" road ebikes.

[mtechnica]

I've got some friends who are really good at rock climbing, but I'm bad at it and likely will never be as good as them given the time and effort they put in, what with my bum shoulder and all.

So I bought this great 30 foot extension ladder so I can scale the cliff face alongside them.

It's still rock climbing, just at my own ability level, okay?

Lmao

[sjbraun]

Just ride what you want to ride, but if you ride a motor assisted bike, restrain from entering competitive events, be they a timed gran fondo or a weekend worlds.
I'm not a mountain biker, but I don't see e-bikes on trails as much of a problem.

[Mark McM]

Just ride what you want to ride, but if you ride a motor assisted bike, restrain from entering competitive events, be they a timed gran fondo or a weekend worlds.
I'm not a mountain biker, but I don't see e-bikes on trails as much of a problem.

I only partially agree with this. For competitive events where there is something actually on the line (prizes, upgrade points, etc.), then I agree that motor assist bikes be excluded from non-motor assist events. But events where there's nothing on the line but ego? All I care about there is that other riders are competent and considerate (there are plenty of fast but incompetent or inconsiderate riders I don't want to ride with, even if they use a non-motorized bike). We all have egos, and ride for our own purposes, and the bike chosen by others doesn't affect me, as long as they otherwise fit in well with the group.

However, I strongly disagree with e-bikes on single track trails, if for no other reason that you have to draw the line somewhere. Mountain bikers have long had to fight for access to trails, and convince other users that we aren't the same as motorized cyclists. Allowing partially motorized bikes would just muddy the waters, and possible reverse some of the gains fought hard for.

[palincss]

'Performance' e-bikes..NO doubt this will descend into a ebike 'discussion'..altho
I get the ebike commuter/cargo/errand/shopping gig..the 'performance' ebike..don't get that at all? What is the point of a 'performance' ebike?


Longer and faster via electrons?..kinda the "Rosie Ruiz" syndrome, IMHO. Seems like putting your computer in your car to cheat on your Strava numbers..

Don't get it.

https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/culture/its-happening-now-e-bikes-at-gran-fondos-and-group-rides_504324

Well, a friend brought one -- a Bianchi Aria -- to a ride I led last Saturday. In her case, the point of an e-assist bike is to restore the strength she lost to radiation and chemotherapy for cancer last year, allowing her to continue to ride at the 12-13 mph level she has been riding at for the past many years, so she could continue to ride with her friends. So like how bad is that? Hardly seems like any kind of "cheating" to me.

[redir]

I only partially agree with this. For competitive events where there is something actually on the line (prizes, upgrade points, etc.), then I agree that motor assist bikes be excluded from non-motor assist events. But events where there's nothing on the line but ego? All I care about there is that other riders are competent and considerate (there are plenty of fast but incompetent or inconsiderate riders I don't want to ride with, even if they use a non-motorized bike). We all have egos, and ride for our own purposes, and the bike chosen by others doesn't affect me, as long as they otherwise fit in well with the group.

However, I strongly disagree with e-bikes on single track trails, if for no other reason that you have to draw the line somewhere. Mountain bikers have long had to fight for access to trails, and convince other users that we aren't the same as motorized cyclists. Allowing partially motorized bikes would just muddy the waters, and possible reverse some of the gains fought hard for.

Here here :beer:

[palincss]

Motorcycles make them easier still.

Yes, but "performance e-bikes" are nothing like motorcycles at all. Absolutely nothing like.

[palincss]

E-Bikes are by definition motor bikes. They are fun to ride for sure but this is just out of control. They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition. I fully support the ADA. But laziness is not a disability :D

That's just silly. E-assist bikes are bicycles that provide a little assist. They're very different from motor bikes.

There are many reasons why a perfectly nice, not-at-all lazy, person might need a bit of assist. Heart disease and damage from heart attacks, and cancer and fatigue and debilitation from radiation and chemo are at the top of the list among the e-bike riders I know. A bit farther down the list you find just-plain-old-age: I'm much happier seeing an 83 year old woman riding her e-bike and staying with her sixty and seventy-year old friends than simply giving up.

[palincss]

To expect a whole coterie of newbies to embrace distance riding because of a motor is wishful thinking.


None of the e-assist riders I know is any kind of a newbie. Most have been riding for between 40 and 50 years.

[palincss]

Are you making a correlation between eBikes and motorcycles? Just curious.

Some here are so wrapped up in their ideology they can't see a difference between the two.

[FlashUNC]

Yes, but "performance e-bikes" are nothing like motorcycles at all. Absolutely nothing like.

That's true, one isn't lying to the user about what it is.

[palincss]

I
"performance" e-road bike is an anachronism.

Since the definition of anachronism is a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned I have to ask, just what period do performance e-road bikes belong to?

Or, perhaps more likely, you don't mean anachronism at all? Perhaps you're thinking of oxymoron?

[XXtwindad]

None of the e-assist riders I know is any kind of a newbie. Most have been riding for between 40 and 50 years.

My point exactly, right? I don't know who the eBike manufacturers have in mind when they're marketing this stuff. But novice riders are not go to buy an eBike and start riding Fondos. I just don't see it. It'll be like gym memberships. They'll buy it, ride it a few times, and it will hang on their wall.

As far as the trails go, keep 'em off. They're going to screw everything up for non-motorized MTBs.

[Mark McM]

That's just silly. E-assist bikes are bicycles that provide a little assist. They're very different from motor bikes..

Here's a pedal bicycle with motor assist (otherwise known as a moped). Is this completely different from motor bikes?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/16/5b/d7165bf709be62a480f83125e9bdb8b3.jpg

Of course e-bikes are motor bikes (i.e. a bike with a motor). And there's nothing wrong with that. But let's call it what it is.

[XXtwindad]

Since the definition of anachronism is a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned I have to ask, just what period do performance e-road bikes belong to?

Or, perhaps more likely, you don't mean anachronism at all? Perhaps you're thinking of oxymoron?

;)

[palincss]

For me on a personal level I don't understand the appeal of even showing up to a testosterone laden ride where the old adage of "if 2 riders meet up a race happens" applies if I know I need the "assistance" of an eBike.

I should point out that no rides that I'm on, or that any of the people that I know with performance e-bikes go on, are even remotely like this description. And I completely agree that e-assist bikes have no place on a ride that's like this description.

But that's not what a "group ride" means to me.

[palincss]

Here's a pedal bicycle with motor assist (otherwise known as a moped). Is this completely different from motor bikes?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/16/5b/d7165bf709be62a480f83125e9bdb8b3.jpg

Of course e-bikes are motor bikes (i.e. a bike with a motor). And there's nothing wrong with that. But let's call it what it is.

That's a moped. This is a performance e-assist bike.
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6ahcroh/products/2231/images/5910/BianchiAriaERoad.2__09808.1575055440.1280.1280.jpg ?c=2


I think you can see the difference. At least, I sure hope you can.

[FlashUNC]

Since the definition of anachronism is a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned I have to ask, just what period do performance e-road bikes belong to?

Or, perhaps more likely, you don't mean anachronism at all? Perhaps you're thinking of oxymoron?

You're too right. They do belong to this period of a dwindling base of aging, fat dudes who can't handle their looming mortality and will do anything to cling to a desperate belief they're younger and fitter than they actually are.

They are very much a 2020 thing.

[pasadena]

Maybe people don't want to make everyone else feel obligated to ride at his pace. Maybe he doesn't want to go in the red every ride.
Don't pretend to not understand the dynamics of a group ride, even an easy pace can be quite difficult for some.

This "harden up or do something else" attitude is just counterproductive thinking that discourages people from cycling.
Who decides what type of e-bike is appropriate? That's for the market to decide. Who cares what kind of e-bike someone buys?

Being close-minded like that just makes me upset because these "rules" are nonsense.

I know how the ebike can be a great benefit, because I've seen it in that dynamic. I've seen how it can be a huge benefit because it's a tool for a job. It's great and everyone gets to enjoy it. It has takes the bike out of the equation, and just lets mates be mates and enjoy the ride- even a casual coffee ride.

Riding a bike shouldn't be "damn hard" unless you want it to be. Some people don't think of cycling as a competitive, you gotta suffer or you're not worthy activity.
They want to enjoy the company and the outdoors, and the bike is great for that. The best. Making others feel bad for that, or imposing that kind of thinking- that they are wrong for seeing the benefit of a e-bike- is NONSENSE.

Don't try to qualify it by saying oh, they are cheating in the "A" rides. I don't see any e-bikes in the A-rides. Never have. We have weekend grouprides with over 200 people on any given saturday and regularly see them all weekend. No one is 'cheating' in a group.

ALL the e-bikes I've seen are commuters, errand, solo or otherwise non-competitive riders.
Even if there were an ebike in a group ride, as long as they are not dangerous (just like any one else) who cares?

I've seen quite a few more ebikes lately, and i'm so glad to see so many more people cycling. No one is out there 'cheating' the saturday hammerfest.

I don't care if someone buys a Pinarello e-bike or whatever. They are cycling.

As someone who is steeped in cycling, helping people get into enjoying it is of value. Judging and setting up elitist rules is not helpful.

The mental gymnastics and weak rationales fat MAMILs will go to in justifying the fact they still want to climb the hills they used to but are precluded from also astonishing.

Riding a bike is damn hard. There's no shame in doing it slower. But hey, I get it, it's ego and self-worth and all that stuff wrapped up in whether folks can still hang with the Saturday morning A ride.

But I guess it's cheaper than south of the border HGH and an EPO regimen.

Its interesting that every argument for "performance" road ebikes is about keeping up with the group, and not one of the users ever asks the inverse of, hey, why doesn't the group just slow down to accommodate everyone? If the goal of the ride is to keep everyone together at all costs, pace should be at the effort of the weakest rider, right? Instead, the absurd logic is make that poor person go buy some ebike so they can hang? It's madness.

Back in the dark ages of 2012, we had this guy in Charlotte who'd show up for the Saturday ride named Jeff. Guy was in his mid 70s at the time, maybe even pushing 80. Hard as nails. Could he rip legs off with legendary pulls on the front? No. In fact, he sat in like a champ, would immediately rotate through, and we were fine with that as we all moderated the pace to something that was fine for all of us and Jeff. Why? Cuz he was a nice dude who liked to ride, we all still got a decent workout in, and I'm sure we'd all like the same kind of courtesy if we're lucky enough to still be riding when we're freakin 80. And he told great stories from racing way back in the day. That helps.

Jeff didn't need a "performance" road ebike. He needed a group with a basic sense of human empathy.

ebikes have a purpose, but all this faaf about keeping with the group is all just deep seated insecurity about what we all do: Lose to Father Time.

More Jeffs and groups who welcome Jeffs, less "performance" road ebikes.

[Mark McM]

That's a moped. This is a performance e-assist bike.
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6ahcroh/products/2231/images/5910/BianchiAriaERoad.2__09808.1575055440.1280.1280.jpg ?c=2


I think you can see the difference. At least, I sure hope you can.



Spell it out for me.

[FlashUNC]

Maybe people don't want to make everyone else feel obligated to ride at his pace. Maybe he doesn't want to go in the red every ride.
Don't pretend to not understand the dynamics of a group ride, even an easy pace can be quite difficult for some.

This "harden up or do something else" attitude is just counterproductive thinking that discourages people from cycling.
Who decides what type of e-bike is appropriate? That's for the market to decide. Who cares what kind of e-bike someone buys?

Being close-minded like that just makes me upset because these "rules" are nonsense.

I know how the ebike can be a great benefit, because I've seen it in that dynamic. I've seen how it can be a huge benefit because it's a tool for a job. It's great and everyone gets to enjoy it. It has takes the bike out of the equation, and just lets mates be mates and enjoy the ride- even a casual coffee ride.

Riding a bike shouldn't be "damn hard" unless you want it to be. Some people don't think of cycling as a competitive, you gotta suffer or you're not worthy activity.
They want to enjoy the company and the outdoors, and the bike is great for that. The best. Making others feel bad for that, or imposing that kind of thinking- that they are wrong for seeing the benefit of a e-bike- is NONSENSE.

Don't try to qualify it by saying oh, they are cheating in the "A" rides. I don't see any e-bikes in the A-rides. Never have. We have weekend grouprides with over 200 people on any given saturday and regularly see them all weekend. No one is 'cheating' in a group.

ALL the e-bikes I've seen are commuters, errand, solo or otherwise non-competitive riders.
Even if there were an ebike in a group ride, as long as they are not dangerous (just like any one else) who cares?

I've seen quite a few more ebikes lately, and i'm so glad to see so many more people cycling. No one is out there 'cheating' the saturday hammerfest.

I don't care if someone buys a Pinarello e-bike or whatever. They are cycling.

As someone who is steeped in cycling, helping people get into enjoying it is of value. Judging and setting up elitist rules is not helpful.

I never said harden up or do something else. If anything I'm advocating for the kind of inclusiveness you're claim I'm not. I'm just saying that inclusiveness doesn't require a 500 watt electric motor or a 40 pound turd of a bike that rides like garbage when the battery is dead.

[joosttx]

Also, and not that it totally matters to this discussion, I think most mtb trail orgs have strict bans on E's. As far as I've seen, it's a total no go.

I could see locals absolutely hounding/chasing off any riders ignorant enough to show up on one.

Just speaking locally the MCBC, Marins, MTB advocacy group, supports ebikes on MTB trails.

https://www.marinbike.org/resources/e-bike/

[glepore]

This is mostly a philosophical discussion from my standpoint, as I more or less stopped doing the local group ride scene when they became dangerous locally-guys taking chances at intersections etc-due to social media posting of ride results etc. If ebikes would mean the return of smooth flowing pacelines, I'm in, but cyclists being cyclists...
My take is that its mechanical doping, pure and simple. If the ride is "social" no one should care. I have yet to be on any group ride that was actually "social", as much as I might want it to be. I frankly don't care if you're on an ebike and ride it smoothly, ie integrated with the group, not accelerating when you pull or zooming up hills. I don't care if you take t injections to do this, or take epo or use an ebike. When the hammer goes down, though, stfu.

[fried bake]

That's just silly. E-assist bikes are bicycles that provide a little assist. They're very different from motor bikes.



There are many reasons why a perfectly nice, not-at-all lazy, person might need a bit of assist. Heart disease and damage from heart attacks, and cancer and fatigue and debilitation from radiation and chemo are at the top of the list among the e-bike riders I know. A bit farther down the list you find just-plain-old-age: I'm much happier seeing an 83 year old woman riding her e-bike and staying with her sixty and seventy-year old friends than simply giving up.

Yup. If Folks think we should really put our health at risk to satisfy their fragile egos then they are just ignorant. Empathy is an important emotion which is apparently lacking in the cycling community.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pdmtong]

I don't care if someone is using electrons to pass me - but if you are going to fly by me don't do it so closely ...

[Mark McM]

Just speaking locally the MCBC, Marins, MTB advocacy group, supports ebikes on MTB trails.

https://www.marinbike.org/resources/e-bike/

Here in New England, the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA) takes the opposite stance. While the support e-bikes on the road, or for those who are mobility limited, they strongly oppose e-bikes on off-road trails:

https://www.nemba.org/news/some-comments-about-electric-mountain-biking

[pasadena]

Apparently so.
Empathy is an important emotion which is apparently lacking in the cycling community.

[joosttx]

Here in New England, the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA) takes the opposite stance. While the support e-bikes on the road, or for those who are mobility limited, they strongly oppose e-bikes on off-road trails:

https://www.nemba.org/news/some-comments-about-electric-mountain-biking

I’m not sure I would be a big fan of performance MTeBs on the trails of New England either. In Marin I don’t have issue but the access and terrain are very different.

[Elefantino]

I'd ride one and buy one in a heartbeat if the right size and price came along.

I could easily justify it but I wouldn't really feel the need to.

[mtechnica]

I haven’t seen any e-bikes in the wild besides commuters, and I’m pretty sure nobody has showed up to any of the fast group rides around here on one - at least that I’ve heard about. I don’t care what people do at fondos as I tend to not do them.

[VC Slim]

I don't care if someone is using electrons to pass me - but if you are going to fly by me don't do it so closely ...

And it goes without saying E or non-E, passing me on the right. :no:

[MattTuck]

E-Bikes are by definition motor bikes. They are fun to ride for sure but this is just out of control. They don't belong on trails imho unless you have a condition. I fully support the ADA. But laziness is not a disability :D

Everyone has to take agency for their own riding experience. If you don't want to ride with people on eBikes, you don't have to. If Fondos are allowing eBikes, and you disagree with that policy, the solution is easy: Vote with your wallet and don't patronize that event.

[BRad704]

Someone who's going to show up at a Fondo at all, has probably ridden a bike at least 3 times in their life. I see no issue with them at all. It's not like my mid-60's parents who haven't ridden a bike in 50 years are going to show up and ping-pong through the peleton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Miller76]

I never really liked e-bikes and it wasn’t until and older guy joined one of our saturday morning rides on one that I finally understood it. He explained he still loved riding, his legs couldn’t keep up with our group and he needed a little help. He was totally honest and upfront and I remember this look of pure joy on his face as he stayed with our group through the entire ride... he just didn’t want to start the ride with the group and finish on his own.

There was no posturing, he wasn’t hiding anything and for the majority of the ride you could see he was pushing and working hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[XXtwindad]

I never really liked e-bikes and it wasn’t until and older guy joined one of our saturday morning rides on one that I finally understood it. He explained he still loved riding, his legs couldn’t keep up with our group and he needed a little help. He was totally honest and upfront and I remember this look of pure joy on his face as he stayed with our group through the entire ride... he just didn’t want to start the ride with the group and finish on his own.

There was no posturing, he wasn’t hiding anything and for the majority of the ride you could see he was pushing and working hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great post. Might've swayed more than anything I've read yet. I don't really care one way or the other, but I think they should stay off dirt trails and they obviously have no place on timed rides.

On MUPS it might be a different story. There might be a need for some oversite.

[Hellgate]

If I need assistance, I'll take one of my motorcycles.

That's the kid...[emoji2955]1697992192

[MattTuck]

Great post. Might've swayed more than anything I've read yet. I don't really care one way or the other, but I think they should stay off dirt trails and they obviously have no place on timed rides.

On MUPS it might be a different story. There might be a need for some oversite.

MUPs should have a speed limit anyway. It is no place for fast riding, whether that is human powered or battery powered.

As far as the "my abilities are declining and I want to keep up with my friends" argument. I mean, if you are on a ride with your friends and your friends are cool with your eBike, that seems like a good situation for all.

I'm not sure I buy the idea that eBikes allow people with poor handling skills to get into situations over their head. I've been involved in (and heard many stories about) rides when people have fitness but don't have the group riding practice/skills. (and I am not some great bike handler) I have seen some really squirrely riders operating under their own power. If you are in a group setting and see a questionable bike handler (regardless of their propulsion), it is probably best to trail off the back and do your own ride. Discretion is the better part of valor -- or whatever aphorism you prefer.

I suspect that a lot of the skepticism/hostility comes from a place of tribalism and an attempt to define who we are by labeling "the other" as different. Pretty sure that cell phones are way more of a danger to cyclists than eBikes.

[BobO]

Smart phones and ear buds on MUPs are the most frequent hazard I have seen while riding.

[joosttx]

MUPs should have a speed limit anyway. It is no place for fast riding, whether that is human powered or battery powered.

As far as the "my abilities are declining and I want to keep up with my friends" argument. I mean, if you are on a ride with your friends and your friends are cool with your eBike, that seems like a good situation for all.

I'm not sure I buy the idea that eBikes allow people with poor handling skills to get into situations over their head. I've been involved in (and heard many stories about) rides when people have fitness but don't have the group riding practice/skills. (and I am not some great bike handler) I have seen some really squirrely riders operating under their own power. If you are in a group setting and see a questionable bike handler (regardless of their propulsion), it is probably best to trail off the back and do your own ride. Discretion is the better part of valor -- or whatever aphorism you prefer.

I suspect that a lot of the skepticism/hostility comes from a place of tribalism and an attempt to define who we are by labeling "the other" as different. Pretty sure that cell phones are way more of a danger to cyclists than eBikes.

I also don't have a problem with them on MUPs or trails (as long as there is no impact). The more people out exercising the better.

Regarding hurting MTB advocacy... well more participants, more business probably means more representation and more access to trails. eMTB could put a huge dent into trail horse ride business. I see horse trail rides as an easy way to get around in nature. eMTB are an easy way to get around in nature and probably lower overhead.

[Kirk007]

aging, fat dudes who can't handle their looming mortality and will do anything to cling to a desperate belief they're younger and fitter than they actually are.


Dude, really?

In the context of showing up for an A ride with an e-bike, fair enough, truly poor form. But, unlike the original article referenced, this discussion has gone way beyond that to a for and against ebikes in general. "MAMILS", "fat aging dudes" - why the disparagment? Live long enough and you'll be one of those aging dudes.

This year I'll be dragging my 62 year old 210 lb (hopefully less and not more) ass uo and down the Alps on a trip that probably will add up to a good 50-75K of climbing in 10 days. It will be on a regular old bike, although I might take along a 48-32 chainset as the Col d’Agnel and Col del Finestre look like beasts. Is that chainset an act of desperation or a recognition that the right equipment will make the ride more enjoyable?

I like being high up on mountains on a bike and if at 72 or 82 I'm still lucky enough to be able to ride, but need an ebike to retrace some of these paths, Damn straight I will do it without question; it won't be clinging to a desparate belief that I'm younger or fitter than I am, rather it will be with complete understanding and recognition that I can still take on a challenge that I enjoy with a bit of help, not that much different than a 48/42 and 34 cog. Or maybe we all still need to be riding 52/42 and straight 11-23 cassettes in order to consider ourselves worthy? Being a cyclist neither begins nor ends with lining up on the start line with the pack.

[Kirk007]

Here in New England, the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA) takes the opposite stance. While the support e-bikes on the road, or for those who are mobility limited, they strongly oppose e-bikes on off-road trails:

https://www.nemba.org/news/some-comments-about-electric-mountain-biking

Limited observation, but at least around Lake Como e-mountain bikes were being heavily promoted by shops. Alberto Elli (former Euro Pro), the Pro at Como Lago Bike was leading ebike mountain bike rides - looked like a lot of fun climbing up the ridges and overlooking the lake. My sense is that there's not nearly the angst over there as there is here.

[FlashUNC]

Dude, really?

In the context of showing up for an A ride with an e-bike, fair enough, truly poor form. But, unlike the original article referenced, this discussion has gone way beyond that to a for and against ebikes in general. "MAMILS", "fat aging dudes" - why the disparagment? Live long enough and you'll be one of those aging dudes.

This year I'll be dragging my 62 year old 210 lb (hopefully less and not more) ass uo and down the Alps on a trip that probably will add up to a good 50-75K of climbing in 10 days. It will be on a regular old bike, although I might take along a 48-32 chainset as the Col d’Agnel and Col del Finestre look like beasts. Is that chainset an act of desperation or a recognition that the right equipment will make the ride more enjoyable?

I like being high up on mountains on a bike and if at 72 or 82 I'm still lucky enough to be able to ride, but need an ebike to retrace some of these paths, Damn straight I will do it without question; it won't be clinging to a desparate belief that I'm younger or fitter than I am, rather it will be with complete understanding and recognition that I can still take on a challenge that I enjoy with a bit of help, not that much different than a 48/42 and 34 cog. Or maybe we all still need to be riding 52/42 and straight 11-23 cassettes in order to consider ourselves worthy? Being a cyclist neither begins nor ends with lining up on the start line with the pack.

Gearing is different because you're fundamentally using your own power still. That's the entire point of the whole contraption. And kudos for tackling that kind of challenge at any age.

But if someone used rollerblades to finish a marathon, would you say they ran a marathon? No. They didn't.

"Performance" eBikes are rollerblades at the marathon. Yeah, it's still work, but no, it's not the same. And again, completely valid uses for eBikes and I applaud them. But as a "performance" road bike? No way.

[robt57]

If I need assistance, I'll take one of my motorcycles.

That's the kid...[emoji2955]1697992192


A rare bird most folk have no idea exists. Looks like the lithium bath enclosed chain system was modded off of it. Wheels and brake too?

I had a 1982 XV920RJ from 1993 to 2015. Is yours a XV920RH?

[joosttx]

Limited observation, but at least around Lake Como e-mountain bikes were being heavily promoted by shops. Alberto Elli (former Euro Pro), the Pro at Como Lago Bike was leading ebike mountain bike rides - looked like a lot of fun climbing up the ridges and overlooking the lake. My sense is that there's not nearly the angst over there as there is here.

There is very little angst in Marin too. The deal here is that most the trails are fire roads and the soil on the road has very little organic matter.

[XXtwindad]

The mental gymnastics and weak rationales fat MAMILs will go to in justifying the fact they still want to climb the hills they used to but are precluded from also astonishing.

Riding a bike is damn hard. There's no shame in doing it slower. But hey, I get it, it's ego and self-worth and all that stuff wrapped up in whether folks can still hang with the Saturday morning A ride.

But I guess it's cheaper than south of the border HGH and an EPO regimen.

Its interesting that every argument for "performance" road ebikes is about keeping up with the group, and not one of the users ever asks the inverse of, hey, why doesn't the group just slow down to accommodate everyone? If the goal of the ride is to keep everyone together at all costs, pace should be at the effort of the weakest rider, right? Instead, the absurd logic is make that poor person go buy some ebike so they can hang? It's madness.

Back in the dark ages of 2012, we had this guy in Charlotte who'd show up for the Saturday ride named Jeff. Guy was in his mid 70s at the time, maybe even pushing 80. Hard as nails. Could he rip legs off with legendary pulls on the front? No. In fact, he sat in like a champ, would immediately rotate through, and we were fine with that as we all moderated the pace to something that was fine for all of us and Jeff. Why? Cuz he was a nice dude who liked to ride, we all still got a decent workout in, and I'm sure we'd all like the same kind of courtesy if we're lucky enough to still be riding when we're freakin 80. And he told great stories from racing way back in the day. That helps.

Jeff didn't need a "performance" road ebike. He needed a group with a basic sense of human empathy.

ebikes have a purpose, but all this faaf about keeping with the group is all just deep seated insecurity about what we all do: Lose to Father Time.

More Jeffs and groups who welcome Jeffs, less "performance" road ebikes.

This post (and a few of the others in the thread) are a little discordant. You usually float above things and chime in with some well-timed snark. Why are you so vehement about this? What's bothering you so much about "fat MAMILs" on eBikes? Kind of strange to see you this apoplectic...

[pasadena]

Very similar experience I had, on the road.
Older guy had some medical issues and came back to ride with his mates for the regular coffee and weekend rides.
The lot of them have been riding mates for years and years.

Some of the nicest cyclists I've met and his ebike was worth its weight in gold.
I always think about them when this subject comes up.

I never really liked e-bikes and it wasn’t until and older guy joined one of our saturday morning rides on one that I finally understood it. He explained he still loved riding, his legs couldn’t keep up with our group and he needed a little help. He was totally honest and upfront and I remember this look of pure joy on his face as he stayed with our group through the entire ride... he just didn’t want to start the ride with the group and finish on his own.

There was no posturing, he wasn’t hiding anything and for the majority of the ride you could see he was pushing and working hard.


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[oldpotatoe]

I know how the ebike can be a great benefit, because I've seen it in that dynamic. I've seen how it can be a huge benefit because it's a tool for a job. It's great and everyone gets to enjoy it. It has takes the bike out of the equation, and just lets mates be mates and enjoy the ride- even a casual coffee ride.

Riding a bike shouldn't be "damn hard" unless you want it to be. Some people don't think of cycling as a competitive, you gotta suffer or you're not worthy activity.
They want to enjoy the company and the outdoors, and the bike is great for that. The best.

Nonsense..it makes the 'bike' THE part of the ride because you imply that really groovy ride wouldn't be possible with a non-ebike.
Don't need an ebike for a casual coffee ride.

Yup, the bike is great for that, but the 'ebike' isn't necessary for that.

You imply, again, that an ebike opens up all sorts of beautiful experiences and relationships that wouldn't be possible w/o the ebike..you are making the ebike the 'reason'..when it's not, IMHO.

BUT, if you and tour crew think they are where it's at..good for you..but I think they are like using a powered aircraft for a day of 'gliding'...

[fa63]

It has been interesting to see the varied responses so far.

I will probably buy an e-road bike in the near future. I would like to be able to ride the pretty mountains in N. Georgia without feeling like I am going to die... I could care less about suffering etc; I have already done every climb up there "manually" and would like to spend more time actually enjoying the scenery.

And the good thing is I don't care what anyone else thinks about my choice to buy an ride an e-bike :-) I know some of my riding buddies will give me a hard time, but oh well. I will hang out the back in a group ride setting and let the testosterone flow up front...

[Hellgate]

A rare bird most folk have no idea exists. Looks like the lithium bath enclosed chain system was modded off of it. Wheels and brake too?



I had a 1982 XV920RJ from 1993 to 2015. Is yours a XV920RH?That is a 1982. There not a part of the bike that hasn't been updated or modified.

R1 brakes, FZ600 wheels, handbuilt loom, and many, many, custom engineered bits.

The lower half of the engine is the chain drive case, the upper half (cylinders, heads, cranks, rods) are from a 2001 XV1100. Has JE 10.6 pistons, .498 cams, ported, etc. Makes a whopping 80hp.

It's inspired by the Bob Work race bike that Dave Aldana raced in the early '80's.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200205/31d6ecabd75b0b8e984dc0dcf1666dd5.jpg

[Black Dog]

The mental gymnastics and weak rationales fat MAMILs will go to in justifying the fact they still want to climb the hills they used to but are precluded from also astonishing.

Riding a bike is damn hard. There's no shame in doing it slower. But hey, I get it, it's ego and self-worth and all that stuff wrapped up in whether folks can still hang with the Saturday morning A ride.

But I guess it's cheaper than south of the border HGH and an EPO regimen.

Its interesting that every argument for "performance" road ebikes is about keeping up with the group, and not one of the users ever asks the inverse of, hey, why doesn't the group just slow down to accommodate everyone? If the goal of the ride is to keep everyone together at all costs, pace should be at the effort of the weakest rider, right? Instead, the absurd logic is make that poor person go buy some ebike so they can hang? It's madness.

Back in the dark ages of 2012, we had this guy in Charlotte who'd show up for the Saturday ride named Jeff. Guy was in his mid 70s at the time, maybe even pushing 80. Hard as nails. Could he rip legs off with legendary pulls on the front? No. In fact, he sat in like a champ, would immediately rotate through, and we were fine with that as we all moderated the pace to something that was fine for all of us and Jeff. Why? Cuz he was a nice dude who liked to ride, we all still got a decent workout in, and I'm sure we'd all like the same kind of courtesy if we're lucky enough to still be riding when we're freakin 80. And he told great stories from racing way back in the day. That helps.

Jeff didn't need a "performance" road ebike. He needed a group with a basic sense of human empathy.

ebikes have a purpose, but all this faaf about keeping with the group is all just deep seated insecurity about what we all do: Lose to Father Time.

More Jeffs and groups who welcome Jeffs, less "performance" road ebikes.

Thanks for saying this. Calling out the ego-centric and insecure nature of road culture is a good thing. More humanity makes for a better sport. This is the secret sauce in the MTB and Tri world. Supportive and inclusive. Grasping for our youth or for abilities we never had is self destructive.

[Mark McM]

I also don't have a problem with them on MUPs or trails (as long as there is no impact). The more people out exercising the better.

I'm not sure where I stand on e-bikes on MUPs. On the one hand, MUPs are essentially linear parks, with a lot of varied users, including children, baby strollers, dog walkers, etc. Sometimes regular bicycles don't mix well with these users, let alone motorized bicycles. On the other hand, MUPs can also be used by people who commute or run errands on bikes, activities which should be encouraged.

Regarding hurting MTB advocacy... well more participants, more business probably means more representation and more access to trails.

The opposite has been the experience here in New England. More MTBs on the trails means more conflict with other trail users, and more trail erosion. Frequently, the more MTBs that use an area, the more likely the MTBs will be banned (see the recent thread about the Kingdom Trails MTB ban). The New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA) was originally formed after trail conflicts were leading to an MTB ban at the Middlesex Fells, one of the most widely used conservation area in the Boston, MA area. NEMBA finally had to admit defeat here (the trails at the Fells are still mostly off-limit to MTBS), and they moved on to try to protect access in other areas instead.

[benb]

Here's the thing with casual rides and eBikes.

If I have a heart attack in 20 years and come back way weaker I would hope my "friends" would just ride slower with me occasionally. I would not be so selfish as to want people to ride with me all the time if I knew I was weaker. I already have to deal with this and have for years cause some of my friends were/are stupendously fast guys.

I only ride with other people "occasionally" any way at this point in my life. (40s, busy with kid, etc..) . Perhaps occasionally would become more frequent again as time permits.

But this whole "drop people on the social ride/kick the pace up on social ride/blah blah blah" is the real problem. The solution is not really for their to be an eBike arms race. The solution is for roadies to stop being d*cks to their supposed friends.

This particular factor is not really an eBike thing IMO. It's just people being jerks. Unless the ride is specifically advertised as essentially a race (which is almost always exceedingly dangerous) there should be an agreed upon pace which everyone should be cool with and no one should take it upon themselves to increase the pace and try and drop the slower riders.

It's an ego thing. It's really annoying. I've seen it on both ends.. but the group ride is not really the place for anyone to get there super high intensity training, especially if everyone agreed that it was a "coffee ride".

At the same time the very existence of a market for eBikes that look like race bikes says this is not about an 85 year old woman with a health problem wanting to keep up with her 60-something friend.

The majority of rides I've dropped in on as newbie to the group have had this dynamic where it turns into a testosterone fest, some to the point I have turned off cause it was dangerous. Usually when I'm really fit I'm stronger than many the groups I'd drop in on, but when I'm not motivated and I'm not training much I'll be on the weaker end. It's no less annoying when you're strong than when you're weak.

Social rides sure, with the right people. But I don't at all get why anyone wants to do Levi's Fondo or Phil's cookie ride or GFNY on an eBike. I'd think it exceedingly ridiculous if they allowed them at hill climbs.

[pasadena]

It's not my "tour crew", they are cyclists that became friends, and glad you like to define how other people should enjoy their lives.

Nonsense..it makes the 'bike' THE part of the ride because you imply that really groovy ride wouldn't be possible with a non-ebike.
Don't need an ebike for a casual coffee ride.

Yup, the bike is great for that, but the 'ebike' isn't necessary for that.

You imply, again, that an ebike opens up all sorts of beautiful experiences and relationships that wouldn't be possible w/o the ebike..you are making the ebike the 'reason'..when it's not, IMHO.

BUT, if you and tour crew think they are where it's at..good for you..but I think they are like using a powered aircraft for a day of 'gliding'...

[unterhausen]

I have no real opinion about fondos, which seem like a goat rope from the outset. But in general, I question using an ebike to keep up with the A ride. If you need one to keep up with the C ride, then I have no problem. The most recent bike boomlet because of -7 means that most people can't ride anyway, so I mostly stay away from group rides. From what I hear second-hand, the local rides feature one conflict with motorists after another anyway. Does not sound like fun.

I have seen groups of old guys out riding together. Seems like it might become a lot more common to see groups like that on ebikes.

[BobO]

If I have a heart attack in 20 years and come back way weaker I would hope my "friends" would just ride slower with me occasionally. I would not be so selfish as to want people to ride with me all the time if I knew I was weaker.

What if I don't want my friends to have to slow down for me and yet still would enjoy their company occasionally?

(Disclosure: I have had two MI and may not come back as strong)

It takes all kinds of people, it's up to every person and group to decide what is acceptable.

[sitzmark]

Thanks for saying this. Calling out the ego-centric and insecure nature of road culture is a good thing. More humanity makes for a better sport. This is the secret sauce in the MTB and Tri world. Supportive and inclusive. Grasping for our youth or for abilities we never had is self destructive.

My impression is just the opposite. The fear of e-bikes IS related to ego and insecurity. How many times has it been posted here that someone was gleeful to pass a fred/wannabee and "see the look on their face"? I couldn't give a crap about what someone thinks if I pass them or they pass me. If they pass me, great - self propelled or assisted. Who cares? Certainly not me.

Some fondos have a very competitive nature. I personally have no objection to e-bikes at a fondo, but it wouldn't be appropriate for e-riders to be recognized in the competitive results - climbs, over-all time, etc.

There's no inclusion in exclusion. Bring your e-bike to our rides or don't bring your e-bike ... don't care. Just ride safely and keep to the group's ride objectives and we're all good. Sounds very inclusive and ego-secure to me.

We can and do adjust most rides to a common pace - usually around 18mph, which is work for a couple and a (very) casual ride for others. Ages range from 40's to 70. No one currently brings an e-bike to the rides. We're encouraging a past group member in his 50's to consider joining us with an e-bike. After a divorce, drinking himself to death, a heart attack, and weight gain he's not in condition to be one of the strongest of the group as he once was. He stopped riding 5 years ago during the height of his misfortunes. We suspect he's a 10-12 avg pace rider at this point and we would happily ride with him at that pace. He refuses because he knows that isn't a "fitness ride" for the rest of us. With an e-bike we would find a pace that works for all and gives him a chance to get back on the bike and join us regularly to return to a healthier level of fitness. I suspect his dependence on assist might decrease over time and he might remount his old steed ... maybe, maybe not, doesn't matter. Just matters that we could ride together again and that we get him active.

Flash and others may think of this as faaf, but I vehemently disagree. Actually very happy I don't ride with anyone who thinks this is faaf.

[FlashUNC]

My impression is just the opposite. The fear of e-bikes IS related to ego and insecurity. How many times has it been posted here that someone was gleeful to pass a fred/wannabee and "see the look on their face"? I couldn't give a crap about what someone thinks if I pass them or they pass me. If they pass me, great - self propelled or assisted. Who cares? Certainly not me.

Some fondos have a very competitive nature. I personally have no objection to e-bikes at a fondo, but it wouldn't be appropriate for e-riders to be recognized in the competitive results - climbs, over-all time, etc.

There's no inclusion in exclusion. Bring your e-bike to our rides or don't bring your e-bike ... don't care. Just ride safely and keep to the group's ride objectives and we're all good. Sounds very inclusive and ego-secure to me.

We can and do adjust most rides to a common pace - usually around 18mph, which is work for a couple and a (very) casual ride for others. Ages range from 40's to 70. No one currently brings an e-bike to the rides. We're encouraging a past group member in his 50's to consider joining us with an e-bike. After a divorce, drinking himself to death, a heart attack, and weight gain he's not in condition to be one of the strongest of the group as he once was. He stopped riding 5 years ago during the height of his misfortunes. We suspect he's a 10-12 avg pace rider at this point and we would happily ride with him at that pace. He refuses because he knows that isn't a "fitness ride" for the rest of us. With an e-bike we would find a pace that works for all and gives him a chance to get back on the bike and join us regularly to return to a healthier level of fitness. I suspect his dependence on assist might decrease over time and he might remount his old steed ... maybe, maybe not, doesn't matter. Just matters that we could ride together again and that we get him active.

Flash and others may think of this as faaf, but I vehemently disagree. Actually very happy I don't ride with anyone who thinks this is faaf.

You could just go on an explicitly social ride with your pal. Down to the coffee shop and back. No average pace, none of that silliness.

He doesn't need to buy a fancy moped to do that, and everyone wins.

[joosttx]

Thanks for saying this. Calling out the ego-centric and insecure nature of road culture is a good thing. More humanity makes for a better sport. This is the secret sauce in the MTB and Tri world. Supportive and inclusive. Grasping for our youth or for abilities we never had is self destructive.

The performance ebike just maybe become the hair plugs of the cycling world.

[glepore]

But this whole "drop people on the social ride/kick the pace up on social ride/blah blah blah" is the real problem. The solution is not really for their to be an eBike arms race. The solution is for roadies to stop being d*cks to their supposed friends.



It's an ego thing. It's really annoying. I've seen it on both ends.. but the group ride is not really the place for anyone to get there super high intensity training, especially if everyone agreed that it was a "coffee ride".


The majority of rides I've dropped in on as newbie to the group have had this dynamic where it turns into a testosterone fest, some to the point I have turned off cause it was dangerous.

Amen, brother.

[joosttx]

You could just go on an explicitly social ride with your pal. Down to the coffee shop and back. No average pace, none of that silliness.

He doesn't need to buy a fancy moped to do that, and everyone wins.

That’s what I do with my son and daughter. However, I fear in the next few years they will not do the same for their old man. Moral of the story have the grace of a father not of a teenager.

[Elefantino]

I guess I'm dense but after reading all the responses I still don't know what the big deal is about riding e-bikes at fondos and group rides.

If a fondo or group ride specifies "no e-bikes," then no big deal. It's their game and if I'm on an e-bike I don't play.

I have been passed on climbs big and small by people on e-bikes; also no big deal. My ride was my ride; theirs wasn't.

We used to have a regular e-bike rider on our shop ride. Nice guy, not hard core, but the e-bike allowed him to stay with the group. Nothing wrong with that.

[sitzmark]

You could just go on an explicitly social ride with your pal. Down to the coffee shop and back. No average pace, none of that silliness.

He doesn't need to buy a fancy moped to do that, and everyone wins.

Happy to do that if it would get him back on the bike and active. Not what he says he wants - wants to join us on our regularly scheduled rides around the Cape or on the Vineyard that we've done for years. It's an hour drive for me to get to him and many of that group, so there's some inefficiency in packing up for a ride to the coffee shop.

The group originally congealed because we ride for exercise and had relatively similar levels of fitness. We continue to ride with a key objective being maintaining fitness. We're social outside of cycling now - skiing, dining, family gatherings, etc so no lack of social interaction. Bikes are still primarily for maintaining fitness. Some people may go to the gym to lift less weight every day, but the majority of people work out to maintain or increase fitness and strength. To each his own.

[Kirk007]

re getting passed by ebikes: I got passed by a family on ebikes on Mt. Ventoux - I was too gassed to care at the time. The guy on the ebike with a boombox on the handlebars keeping his upper body grooving to a reggae beat was rather annoying.

But at the end of the day here were folks riding up Ventoux on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, something they wouldn't have been doing without the ebike (note not "performance"ebikes, didn't see any of those). I suspect that many of these folks drove a good portion of the way up the slopes before pulling out their bikes for the final 5 km as I didn't see many on the lower slopes (indeed Reggae man had his family in a car yo-yoing past him; he'd then take a break, have a drink etc.). I decided better to have them on a bike and experiencing the same truly annoying interactions that I was experiencing - the roving packs of riders on crotch rockets blasting past spewing fumes and noise and playing chicken with cars in the ongoing lanes as they wove their way in and out of traffic. Maybe those folks on ebikes become (or already are) more tolerant drivers when in their cars.

[Black Dog]

The performance ebike just maybe become the hair plugs of the cycling world.

:)

[William]

re getting passed by ebikes: I got passed by a family on ebikes on Mt. Ventoux - I was too gassed to care at the time. The guy on the ebike with a boombox on the handlebars keeping his upper body grooving to a reggae beat was rather annoying.

But at the end of the day here were folks riding up Ventoux on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, something they wouldn't have been doing without the ebike (note not "performance"ebikes, didn't see any of those). I suspect that many of these folks drove a good portion of the way up the slopes before pulling out their bikes for the final 5 km as I didn't see many on the lower slopes (indeed Reggae man had his family in a car yo-yoing past him; he'd then take a break, have a drink etc.). I decided better to have them on a bike and experiencing the same truly annoying interactions that I was experiencing - the roving packs of riders on crotch rockets blasting past spewing fumes and noise and playing chicken with cars in the ongoing lanes as they wove their way in and out of traffic. Maybe those folks on ebikes become (or already are) more tolerant drivers when in their cars.


I would much rather have people passing me on a climb riding ebikes (even blasting Reggae ) than people driving cars any day.

Just saying'





W.

[biker72]

Got an ebike in the group? I really don't care. As long as the person is riding responsibly, not running lights, weaving in and out of the peloton...I don't care.

Someone passes me on a hill riding a ebike?? Well lots of people pass me on hills, maybe a couple of ebikes and lots of other bikes...:)

Seriously my big concern with ebikes is that there will be a few riders that will ride their 28mph capable bikes on MUT's that aren't meant for those speeds. Last year I noticed in a number of cities I visited that more and more of the trails were marked 15 mph. Of course there is always a Mr. Time Trial that will ride 30mph regardless of existing conditions.

[pdmtong]

Got an ebike in the group? I really don't care. As long as the person is riding responsibly, not running lights, weaving in and out of the peloton...I don't care.

Someone passes me on a hill riding a ebike?? Well lots of people pass me on hills, maybe a couple of ebikes and lots of other bikes...:)

Seriously my big concern with ebikes is that there will be a few riders that will ride their 28mph capable bikes on MUT's that aren't meant for those speeds. Last year I noticed in a number of cities I visited that more and more of the trails were marked 15 mph. Of course there is always a Mr. Time Trial that will ride 30mph regardless of existing conditions.

^ yup

there's a big difference between a rider who knows how to ride using an e-bike to assist

versus

an unskilled newb who is using an e-bike and now able to obtain speeds incompatible with their skills

[fried bake]

You could just go on an explicitly social ride with your pal. Down to the coffee shop and back. No average pace, none of that silliness.



He doesn't need to buy a fancy moped to do that, and everyone wins.

Several posts in, and I still don’t get why you feel the need to define how they should approach their social ride.


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