Uh-Oh..Michele Ferrari back in the news

[oldpotatoe]

First Bruyneel, now Ferrari..yikes..Fuglsang..too bad, if it's true.
Reports in Danish and Norwegian media Sunday cite a 24-page dossier that suggests that Jakob Fuglsang was connected with Ferrari, Lance Armstrong’s former trainer who’s been banned from cycling, as recently as the 2019 season. Reports also said Alexey Lutsenko attended a meeting between Ferrari and Fuglsang in Monaco.


https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/news/reports-suggest-ferrari-active-again-in-peloton_504436

[GregL]

If ever there was a swamp in need of draining, it's the world of pro cycling management. Ferrari, Riis, Vinokourov, Vaughters, ad infinitum. They should all be banished forever. Don't ever see it happening, but it's nice to dream...

Greg

[Black Dog]

Team Astana with Vinokurov as the boss....no surprises here, at all.

[cash05458]

What they ought to do, and won't, is just pull Astana's license...bingo , you are done and goodbye...never happen of course...it will just be the same old same old...a little bs talk and investigation...maybe a rider suspension via a public PR sacrifice...then the wink and the nod letting everyone know it's business as usual...it ain't that the UCI has no teeth...rather, they don't want to have any teeth...nothing new there of course...

[peanutgallery]

Pretty sure the doping at Astana isn't exactly optional. More like Sergei says....or we start breaking limbs and selling your organs. Vino is going to Vino

[Hindmost]

Can Fugelsang be that stupid? Motorpacing, really?!

[cash05458]

Can Fugelsang be that stupid? Motorpacing, really?!

Most of the pros aren't mensa material...Frank Vandenbroucke claimed all the drugs he got nailed with were for his dog (my personal favorite)...then there's Tyler's twin, Floyd with his shot of whiskey...they called Fignon "the professor" because he did a year of junior college and read a few stephen king books... it goes on and on...

[BdaGhisallo]

Most of the pros aren't mensa material...Frank Vandenbroucke claimed all the drugs he got nailed with were for his dog (my personal favorite)...then there's Tyler's twin, Floyd with his shot of whiskey...they called Fignon "the professor" because he did a year of junior college and read a few stephen king books... it goes on and on...

I think Fignon only actually did one semester.

[FlashUNC]

Would explain how Fuglsang looked like an unstoppable force of nature last Spring.

[Black Dog]

Most of the pros aren't mensa material...Frank Vandenbroucke claimed all the drugs he got nailed with were for his dog (my personal favorite)...then there's Tyler's twin, Floyd with his shot of whiskey...they called Fignon "the professor" because he did a year of junior college and read a few stephen king books... it goes on and on...

Maybe level of education and intelligence is a bit of a false equivalency.

[benb]

Maybe level of education and intelligence is a bit of a false equivalency.

Is it really when the context is college vs pro cycling?

Pro Cycling probably has about the worst lifetime earning potential of any major pro sport. You don't drop out of college for pro cycling for rational/intelligent reasons. It's gotta be 100% a passion decision.

This stuff is semi-debatable with soccer/football & some of the big american ball/puck sports. They have much shorter careers compared to us normals but they get paid a lot per year on average.

But lots of pro cyclists get paid very poorly on the scale of pro athletes... and they still have the really short career.

[MattTuck]

Is it really when the context is college vs pro cycling?

Pro Cycling probably has about the worst lifetime earning potential of any major pro sport. You don't drop out of college for pro cycling for rational/intelligent reasons. It's gotta be 100% a passion decision.



Are you suggesting that pro cycling is a major pro sport. hahaha. :) Good one!

[benb]

I think in terms of viewers, news coverage, etc.. it is.

I'm not saying it is in the US but the UCI ProTour certainly seems to qualify. Context is important... in Europe it definitely seems to be a major Pro sport.

[MattTuck]

I think in terms of viewers, news coverage, etc.. it is.

I'm not saying it is in the US but the UCI ProTour certainly seems to qualify. Context is important... in Europe it definitely seems to be a major Pro sport.

I'm just ribbing you :)

On the issue at hand, I'm not a big fan of guilt by association. If he is being tested appropriately, and passing the tests, what are we to believe? I don't think Joachim posts here much anymore, but he seemed pretty convinced that the testing chemistry was very good and not easily fooled. Maybe that has changed, I just don't know.

If you don't believe the testing is legit, I guess there are bigger problems and it adds to the soap opera of speculation and cynicism.

[echappist]

I'm just ribbing you :)

On the issue at hand, I'm not a big fan of guilt by association. If he is being tested appropriately, and passing the tests, what are we to believe? I don't think Joachim posts here much anymore, but he seemed pretty convinced that the testing chemistry was very good and not easily fooled. Maybe that has changed, I just don't know.

If you don't believe the testing is legit, I guess there are bigger problems and it adds to the soap opera of speculation and cynicism.

except in this case (Ferrari, specifically), association per se is enough to earn a ban. Ferrari is banned from coaching, consulting, dispensing advice, and anyone seeking advice receives a two-year ban (IIRC).

[Mark McM]

I'm just ribbing you :)

On the issue at hand, I'm not a big fan of guilt by association. If he is being tested appropriately, and passing the tests, what are we to believe? I don't think Joachim posts here much anymore, but he seemed pretty convinced that the testing chemistry was very good and not easily fooled. Maybe that has changed, I just don't know.

If you don't believe the testing is legit, I guess there are bigger problems and it adds to the soap opera of speculation and cynicism.

What do you mean by "legit"? The dopers are often one step ahead of the testers. Tyler Hamilton's book spells out all the ways that dopers avoid testing positive. That's why testing is only one part of anti-doping efforts.

As far as "guilt by association": Working with someone who has been sanctioned for doping offenses is prohibited by the WADA code (and anyone who races professionally has agreed to abide by the WADA code).

[FlashUNC]

I'm just ribbing you :)

On the issue at hand, I'm not a big fan of guilt by association. If he is being tested appropriately, and passing the tests, what are we to believe? I don't think Joachim posts here much anymore, but he seemed pretty convinced that the testing chemistry was very good and not easily fooled. Maybe that has changed, I just don't know.

If you don't believe the testing is legit, I guess there are bigger problems and it adds to the soap opera of speculation and cynicism.

Ferrari is persona non grata in basically any WADA sport. Anyone in contact with him is guilty by association, quite literally.

[MattTuck]

except in this case (Ferrari, specifically), association per se is enough to earn a ban. Ferrari is banned from coaching, consulting, dispensing advice, and anyone seeking advice receives a two-year ban (IIRC).


What do you mean by "legit"? The dopers are often one step ahead of the testers. Tyler Hamilton's book spells out all the ways that dopers avoid testing positive. That's why testing is only one part of anti-doping efforts.

As far as "guilt by association": Working with someone who has been sanctioned for doping offenses is prohibited by the WADA code (and anyone who races professionally has agreed to abide by the WADA code).

Ferrari is persona non grata in basically any WADA sport. Anyone in contact with him is guilty by association, quite literally.

I understand the zeal to quash doping led to these kinds of rules in an effort to change the culture of cycling. Ferrari was demonized and provided a useful face as someone to blame for the whole fiasco. That era saw many riders and support staff doping. Vino and Vaughters, TO THIS DAY, are both involved with teams, despite their history -- pretty sure there are a lot more. You can't get suspended for working with them. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that it is a standard that is applied inconsistently.

I can assure you that Ferrari isn't some kind of modern reverso-vampire with syringe tentacles that shoot you up with EPO if you get within 5 feet of him.

If there is a case to be made against Fuglsang (or any other rider working Ferrari), it would be nice if they could make the case with evidence of actual blood doping. I understand they don't NEED to.

As it is, I don't view it as a doping violation, (if he indeed did work with Ferrari) I view it as a breach of contract -- which may have its own severe consequences, and certainly demonstrates questionable decision making and suggests that further investigation is needed.

Cheater by association, ok.... I can get buy that because he broke the rules. But, doper by association? Nope.

As far as above about testing being "legit", I meant, effective in detecting doping.

[unterhausen]

The real genius of the Ferrari era was generating negative test results for dopers. So associating with him is problematic

[FlashUNC]

Ferrari isn't a doping doctor, he's the EPO doctor. The architect of that infamous Gewiss Fleche Wallone 1-2-3, Moser's bonkers Hour record, all the Pharmstrong shenanigans.

I mean, the guy knows how to turbocharge riders, no doubt. But c'mon, even being same in the same town as the guy is cause for knowing something ain't right.

And Fuglsang was on another level than he'd been his entire career last Spring.

[soulspinner]

Would explain how Fuglsang looked like an unstoppable force of nature last Spring.

Ya I noticed...….…….

[Elefantino]

.

[kramnnim]

Lutsenko posted the exact same message, maybe they have the same agent

[oldpotatoe]

except in this case (Ferrari, specifically), association per se is enough to earn a ban. Ferrari is banned from coaching, consulting, dispensing advice, and anyone seeking advice receives a two-year ban (IIRC).

YUP, Ferrari has a LIFE-TIME BAN, like LA7...If Fuglsang is seeing Ferrari, he's being not smart. He knows who Ferrari is, his history and how
this will bring a lot of bad attention to him..BUT, Fuglsang isn't doing anything 'illegal', Ferrari is(altho not sure it's really 'illegal?)..Doubt he could be arrested or anything..could be r]wrong.
'Sporting Fraud'??
If you don't believe the testing is legit, I guess there are bigger problems and it adds to the soap opera of speculation and cynicism.

Testing is better but still behind the use of PEDs. Remember LA7 never popped(well, maybe once but $$ to the UCI=no bust)..AND no test for blood doping except the really archaic hematocrit test..How DO these guys stay at high 40s thruout a GT?

[KJMUNC]

.How DO these guys stay at high 40s thruout a GT?

Same way Oscar Sevilla contests a stage race at age 43 against last year’s TdF champion who is quite literally less than half his age. :cool:

[benb]

The idea you could be consulting with Ferrari and not doing something nefarious is something I'd be very skeptical of.

Ferrari, Fuentes, etc.. publicly sold the idea they had some novel coaching knowledge that made them worth working with.

But it was all a smokescreen for their doping work.

Their knowledge was doping, why would you go to them for help with clean training/coaching? No reason to do so, there are going to be other coaches/trainers/doctors who have a reputation for that instead of a reputation for doping.

If a guy like Ferrari had some performance secret that didn't involve doping he'd never have gotten into doping.