Opinion: Campagnolo should...

[rain dogs]

... make a gravel groupset branded as their subsidiary Fulcrum.

Campagnolo makes the highest end road racing components and nothing else. Fair enough.

Fulcrum makes Gravel wheels in both 650b and 700c. (along with MTB wheels and E Bike wheels.) Campagnolo wouldn't touch any of those things.

So.... make a 1by Fulcrum crank. Make a Fulcrum direct mount, high capacity, clutch derailleur. Rebrand the Hydraulic ergos/calipers, with a new 'no shift guts' body for the left shifter and you're 98% done, no 'damage' done to the parent brand.

IMHO

[tomato coupe]

... make a gravel groupset branded as their subsidiary Fulcrum.

Campagnolo makes the highest end road racing components and nothing else. Fair enough.

Fulcrum makes Gravel wheels in both 650b and 700c. (along with MTB wheels and E Bike wheels.) Campagnolo wouldn't touch any of those things.

So.... make a 1by Fulcrum crank. Make a Fulcrum direct mount, high capacity, clutch derailleur. Rebrand the Hydraulic ergos/calipers, with a new 'no shift guts' body for the left shifter and you're 98% done, no 'damage' done to the parent brand.

IMHO
Not a bad idea, but I’d bet that most people who would buy a Campy/Fulcrum gravel group are firmly entrenched in the 2x world.

[XXtwindad]

I had a 1X for mainly road/light gravel use. Doesn't make any sense to me, based on first-hand experience.

[zap]

No. Fulcrum wheels are for those who want the best wheels for their SRAM/Shimano equipped bicycles.

Does 1x define what gravel is? I ride off road (mtb) and many times on a ride I find myself wanting a bigger gear on descents. Wouldn't Chorus meet the "requirement". Less expensive so when it gets beat up not the end of the world. A 32/48 crankset and 11/34 should be sufficient. Maybe a clutch rear derailleur but I don't know enough about this tech and real world use vs non clutch.

[Blue Jays]

Certainly a business approach worth contemplating. I love me my Campagnolo.

[FlashUNC]

Pretty ingrained in Campy's business model they're not going to chase trends.

They've got their gravel adjacent stuff in Chorus and Potenza these days.

[Black Dog]

Pretty ingrained in Campy's business model they're not going to chase trends.

They've got their gravel adjacent stuff in Chorus and Potenza these days.

This. They have gravel ready groups and need only to market them more aggressively if they wish not "make" a group for gravel. 1x is still a performance compromise (big gearing gaps). Campy and Shimano are not excited about 1x for good reasons.

[Elefantino]

... do what Campagnolo does. Make the best equipment according to its own drummer.

[Hilltopperny]

I would likely give it a shot. I actually like 1x with a wide range cassette for allroad/gravel bikes, but I am not trying to compete with this type of gearing. I like the simplicity of a 40-44t up front and a 10-42 in the rear. I get all I need out of it, but again I ride to ride.


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[rain dogs]

Pretty ingrained in Campy's business model they're not going to chase trends.

I'm not talking about Campagnolo doing it, I'm talking about Fulcrum doing it. Fulcrum already makes 'trendy' Gravel wheels - the Rapid Red 5.

Does 1x define what gravel is? I ride off road (mtb) and many times on a ride I find myself wanting a bigger gear on descents.

Doesn't mean they can't have a 2x option as well, just saying that if it isn't a track chainset, Campagnolo isn't making it. So, make a fulcrum 1x and 2x chainset.... like GRX.

This. They have gravel ready groups and need only to market them more aggressively if they wish not "make" a group for gravel. 1x is still a performance compromise (big gearing gaps). Campy and Shimano are not excited about 1x for good reasons.

This is my point. Campagnolo takes on brand-risk if they "aggresively market" their stuff for gravel. With Fulcrum they can avoid that risk. The same reason fulcrum exists in the first place - to get Campagnolo wheels onto Shimano/Sram bikes without it saying "Campagnolo"

I believe Campagnolo should just continue doing exactly what they are doing - being or attempting to be the reference point for road racing equipment - and nothing else. That's why I like this idea... it also allows them to 'explore' a bit more through their subsidiary. Fulcrum used to make cranks too... I have a set and they are exactly the same as Record UT... just with cheaper rings and uglier graphics. I got them on a nice deal, but the concept never made sense to me because it was a 'duplicate' I guess marketed the same way as the wheels... for Shimano/Sram folk. But why? Probably why they stopped. Whereas here, with the emergence of 'Gravel' there would be a real reason to do that - an entirely different market segment not directly serviced by Campagnolo.

It may also give Fulcrum a true raison d'etre instead of just being a sticker-swap brand. Campagnolo = Pro Road. Fulcrum = "All roads" in a manner of speaking

[AngryScientist]

it would be awesome and smart.

now that we have pros branching out and doing some of the big gravel rides, if campy sponsors those road pros, it would be smart to not let them HAVE to ride shimano or sram on gravel.

i mean, right now, no one even makes a 1x drop-stop/wide-narrow ring for campy bcd cranks as far as i know.

as you mention, there would be very little risk releasing some gravel specific stuff under the fulcrum brand, and i think it would sell.

[weiwentg]

...Does 1x define what gravel is? I ride off road (mtb) and many times on a ride I find myself wanting a bigger gear on descents. Wouldn't Chorus meet the "requirement". Less expensive so when it gets beat up not the end of the world. A 32/48 crankset and 11/34 should be sufficient. Maybe a clutch rear derailleur but I don't know enough about this tech and real world use vs non clutch.

I got a gravel bike that initially came with full Ultegra, and I added an Ultegra RX. I do like the clutch RD quite a bit. It really eliminates chain slap.

I think most people consider tubeless mandatory or near mandatory for gravel. I wouldn't quite put a clutch RD for a 2x drivetrain in that camp, but it's good to have. If you want a 1x drivetrain, then that's another story. Edit: that said, SRAM has clutches on its AXS groups and all its 1x groups, and Shimano has clutches on all its GRX groups. So yes, I do hope Campy adds a clutch option.

To the first part of your post: you're right, Campy already has very good disc brakes on its road groups. I do wonder about the durability of the composite derailleur knuckles off road, but maybe that's not a huge deal. You can basically go and equip a gravel bike with Campy. I think the sorts of people who'd go Campy are probably more likely to go for bikes on the road end of the gravel spectrum, so bone stock Campy would more than do. Trickle the 48/32 chainrings down to Potenza and Centaur, add more crankarm lengths, and that's all you'd need.

Back to the original post. I'm not sure I see the point of Campy releasing a gravel group under Fulcrum. I can't really see the risk to them in releasing a gravel-specific group under their own name. It'll look a certain way, and that will appeal to some people. They've never been able to chase a big part of the mass market, so maybe they shouldn't.

[Mark McM]

So.... make a 1by Fulcrum crank. Make a Fulcrum direct mount, high capacity, clutch derailleur. Rebrand the Hydraulic ergos/calipers, with a new 'no shift guts' body for the left shifter and you're 98% done, no 'damage' done to the parent brand.

There were already Fulcrum branded cranks, but they were not successful in the market.

In order to make an entire drivetrain, they'd of course also need a shifting system. To simply rebrand shifters/derailleurs would water down Campagnolo brand by having more than one brand sell Campagnolo compatible shifters/derailleurs. If they made Shimano or SRAM compatible shifters/derailleurs, they'd weaken Campagnolo's position as an alternative system. I don't see this idea as a positive at all.

The Fulcrum brand for wheels makes a lot of sense. Previously, Campagnolo wheels only really appealed to those who used Campagnolo drivetrains (which is a minority of the market). This is unlike other independent wheel brands (Zipp, Hed, Mavic, Bontrager, etc.) who are agnostic about drivetrain and produce Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo compatible wheels. Fulcrum is set up to compete with these brands, to expand wheel sales far beyond Campagnolo drivetrain users. Setting up Fulcrum as a drivetrain brand just end up hurting Campagnolo more than helping them.

[FlashUNC]

I'm not talking about Campagnolo doing it, I'm talking about Fulcrum doing it. Fulcrum already makes 'trendy' Gravel wheels - the Rapid Red 5.



Doesn't mean they can't have a 2x option as well, just saying that if it isn't a track chainset, Campagnolo isn't making it. So, make a fulcrum 1x and 2x chainset.... like GRX.



This is my point. Campagnolo takes on brand-risk if they "aggresively market" their stuff for gravel. With Fulcrum they can avoid that risk. The same reason fulcrum exists in the first place - to get Campagnolo wheels onto Shimano/Sram bikes without it saying "Campagnolo"

I believe Campagnolo should just continue doing exactly what they are doing - being or attempting to be the reference point for road racing equipment - and nothing else. That's why I like this idea... it also allows them to 'explore' a bit more through their subsidiary. Fulcrum used to make cranks too... I have a set and they are exactly the same as Record UT... just with cheaper rings and uglier graphics. I got them on a nice deal, but the concept never made sense to me because it was a 'duplicate' I guess marketed the same way as the wheels... for Shimano/Sram folk. But why? Probably why they stopped. Whereas here, with the emergence of 'Gravel' there would be a real reason to do that - an entirely different market segment not directly serviced by Campagnolo.

It may also give Fulcrum a true raison d'etre instead of just being a sticker-swap brand. Campagnolo = Pro Road. Fulcrum = "All roads" in a manner of speaking

I don't think we can understate the impact of the mountain bike groups' failure had on the mindset of Valentino in running the business since then, and maybe to it's detriment at times. But even with a subsidiary brand, they're not going to chase an industry trend only to have it flop.

For better or worse, Campy knows what they do well, and focus on that.

[sales guy]

You gents have no idea what's on the horizon with Campagnolo. Let's just say it's epic. 1_x over.

[AngryScientist]

You gents have no idea what's on the horizon with Campagnolo. Let's just say it's epic. 13x over.

yea, i've heard that before!

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234850

if you have some news, share it!

[sales guy]

I can't. I'm not even supposed to know about it yet. I can say it was supposed to debut at NAHBS and has been pushed back 3 months. So really like 4 or 5 months. So like September.

[Blue Jays]

While I currently do not own a bicycle with a 1x drivetrain, the simplicity and ease of that setup is alluring.

[sales guy]

While I currently do not own a bicycle with a 1x drivetrain, the simplicity and ease of that setup is alluring.

I don't own one like that either. But a Chorus 1 x 1_ would be fantastic.

[Blue Jays]

"...a Chorus 1 x 1_ would be fantastic..."Good point. Chorus 1x would also be very sweet.
Plus not quite as unnerving as bringing a sweet Super Record-equipped bicycle out on gnarly terrain.

[robertbb]

Maybe it's just me, but Campy's next move seems obvious.

I've been banging on about this for a while based on the following two data points:

1) See that Super Record and Record simply say "12 speed", whereas Chorus says "12x2 speed"? Why would they do that...

https://i.ibb.co/hsHmkPz/Campy-Lineup.jpg (https://ibb.co/SN032hC)

2) Take a good long look at the 12s chorus cranks. See those holes in the carbon arms (visible from the outside, not present on Super Record or Record)... might they be there to support a 1x chainring?

https://i.ibb.co/hKPLWBm/Chorus-Crank.jpg (https://ibb.co/cNGkF6r)

[FlashUNC]

Maybe it's just me, but Campy's next move seems obvious.

I've been banging on about this for a while based on the following two data points:

1) See that Super Record and Record simply say "12 speed", whereas Chorus says "12x2 speed"? Why would they do that...

https://i.ibb.co/hsHmkPz/Campy-Lineup.jpg (https://ibb.co/SN032hC)

2) Take a good long look at the 12s chorus cranks. See those holes in the carbon arms (visible from the outside, not present on Super Record or Record)... might they be there to support a 1x chainring?

https://i.ibb.co/hKPLWBm/Chorus-Crank.jpg (https://ibb.co/cNGkF6r)

The holes are for subcompact rings so you can run smaller rings than 50x34. As for 1x, who knows?

[sales guy]

Maybe it's just me, but Campy's next move seems obvious.

I've been banging on about this for a while based on the following two data points:

1) See that Super Record and Record simply say "12 speed", whereas Chorus says "12x2 speed"? Why would they do that...

https://i.ibb.co/hsHmkPz/Campy-Lineup.jpg (https://ibb.co/SN032hC)

2) Take a good long look at the 12s chorus cranks. See those holes in the carbon arms (visible from the outside, not present on Super Record or Record)... might they be there to support a 1x chainring?

https://i.ibb.co/hKPLWBm/Chorus-Crank.jpg (https://ibb.co/cNGkF6r)

I can not comment on this other than to say that Campagnolo will be a brand above and ahead of others come summer.

[oldpotatoe]

I've always said Campag could start to make stuff where the frames are made-Asia...for OE. Branded Fulcrum. A lot of Fulcrum and brakes made there anyway(TRP, wheels)..Maybe when Valentino retires...:)

BUT, sure do a 1by but no real reason for 1by except tire clearance, 2by would work great. But remember, gravel, Groad, is still a teeny part of the market. It 'seems' big but in reality, particularly in Europe and Japan, it's still a niche w/i a niche w/i a niche.

Campag already makes some GRoad stuff but I think for OE, Fulcrum branded stuff would work..expensive to set up tho...
as you mention, there would be very little risk releasing some gravel specific stuff under the fulcrum brand, and i think it would sell.

I think YUGE risk. Valentino remembers the MTB fiasco, it nearly put Campag under. BIG $ to set this up..not just a low $, quick transition.
I can not comment on this other than to say that Campagnolo will be a brand above and ahead of others come summer.


Hmm..intriguing..Can't be more than just a 13speed(which I doubt)...

[Mark McM]

While I currently do not own a bicycle with a 1x drivetrain, the simplicity and ease of that setup is alluring.

I absolutely understand the appeal of a drivetrain that needs only one shifter. I also understand the appeal of non-pneumatic tires (i.e "airless tires"). But in both cases, all the implementations offered so far have far too many limitations and liabilities. For the foreseeable future, its still 2x drivetrains and pneumatic tires for me.

[91Bear]

...make more silver components.

[Blue Jays]

"...For the foreseeable future, its still 2x drivetrains and pneumatic tires for me..."
That has been my prevailing status, too. My bicycles are 2x.
Campagnolo is beloved to me and I like to support their decisions.

[zap]

Hmm..intriguing..Can't be more than just a 13speed(which I doubt)...

I too doubt 13.

Info on 1x and smaller cogs is out there.

[charliedid]

I can not comment on this other than to say that Campagnolo will be a brand above and ahead of others come summer.


I hear they are finally launching zerospeed intuitive AI shifting.

[Mark McM]

Hmm..intriguing..Can't be more than just a 13speed(which I doubt)...

Maybe it means they'll go back to making cassettes that start with a 13 tooth sprocket, which is more practical for those who don't need 11 or 12 tooth sprockets. With standard (52/39) or semi-compact (52/36) chainrings, the 10spd 13-29 cassette was the most useful size cassette Campagnolo has made.

[rain dogs]

I think YUGE risk. Valentino remembers the MTB fiasco, it nearly put Campag under. BIG $ to set this up..not just a low $, quick transition.


Campagnolo entering MTB is completely different than if Fulcrum did Gravel/All Road

First, Campagnolo had no business in MTB. This was a "heritage" road racing company from Europe, who many in MTB had never heard of, trying to come into a predominantly American market, with high price points and road 'ideas'. The kind of thing MTB was raging against. It also required totally new groupsets and components from the ground up. It was never in the Campagnolo DNA, and was destined to fail from day one.

Fulcrum, with all due respect, has no DNA. They are a sticker swap company. This could give them DNA and Gravel groups are primarily "road-based" so the lion's share of the work is done... the pieces can be cross-compatible. GRX is a reworking of road components with the exception of the MTB rear derailleur. Plus, Furlcrum can hit a price point Campagnolo cannot otherwise they risk upsetting their whole hierarchy and pricing. And there will be a tiny segment who will hand out Campy $$$ for a crash and bash gravel group.... doesn't fit the image either.

Nobody thinks GRX is going to hurt Ultegra sales, because they're different beasts, different markets, different users... or the same user with different and additional needs. Gravel won't be a shortlived trend. This isn't fixed gear.

If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? 3T and fans of Aqua Blue Sport? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick, and doesn't benefit from their advanced carbon work etc. in a way that road does.

[charliedid]

Campagnolo entering MTB would be completely different than Fulcrum doing Gravel/All Road

First, Campagnolo had no business in MTB. This was a "heritage" road racing company from Europe, who many in MTB had never heard of, trying to come into a predominantly American market, with high price points and road 'ideas'. The kind of thing MTB was raging against. It also required totally new groupsets and components from the ground up. It was never in the Campagnolo DNA, and was destine to fail from day one.

Fulcrum, with all due respect, has no DNA. They are a sticker swap company. This could give them DNA and Gravel groups are primarily "road-based" so the lion's share of the work is done... the pieces can be cross-compatible. GRX is a reworking of road components with the exception of the MTB rear derailleur. Plus, Furlcrum can hit a price point Campagnolo cannot otherwise they risk upsetting their whole hierarchy and pricing. And there will be a tiny segment who will hand out Campy $$$ for a crash and bash gravel group.... doesn't fit the image either.

Nobody thinks GRX is going to hurt Ultegra sales, because they're different beasts, different markets, different users... or the same user with different and additional needs. Gravel won't be a shortlived trend. This isn't fixed gear.

If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick.

I don't know what Campy should do but I might have to argue that fixed/SS category is or was short lived. I'd say it's still a full blown category at this point.

[Blue Jays]

No way is our beloved Campagnolo contemplating a 13-speed group.
Superstition would ensure it became a total flop. There is a reason hotels often do not have a 13th floor.
My personal belief is they should have just kept refining, enhancing, and improving 10-speed.

[rain dogs]

I don't know what Campy should do but I might have to argue that fixed/SS category is or was short lived. I'd say it's still a full blown category at this point.

Fine, it's a 'category', but Gravel will blow fixed gear out of the water. Even here in Europe.... everything is blowing up with Gravel. It's going to get huge.

[charliedid]

Fine, it's a 'category', but Gravel will blow fixed gear out of the water. Even here in Europe.... everything is blowing up with Gravel. It's going to get huge.

On that we agree.

[sales guy]

No way is our beloved Campagnolo contemplating a 13-speed group.




If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? 3T and fans of Aqua Blue Sport? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick, and doesn't benefit from their advanced carbon work etc. in a way that road does.

I hear they are finally launching zerospeed intuitive AI shifting.

I too doubt 13.

Info on 1x and smaller cogs is out there.


BUT, sure do a 1by but no real reason for 1by except tire clearance, 2by would work great. But remember, gravel, Groad, is still a teeny part of the market. It 'seems' big but in reality, particularly in Europe and Japan, it's still a niche w/i a niche w/i a niche.

Hmm..intriguing..Can't be more than just a 13speed(which I doubt)...


While I can't say what's in the pipeline, I can say a simple USPTO search will show over 50 patents in 2019 alone. Everything from hand controls with no wires to a new freehub body style/engagement methods to cogs as low as 9th to 13 speed cassettes to power meters to 1x drivetrains. And that's just a small amount of the 24 from 2019 I looked at. If even a fraction of them arrives(some will), that will put Campy ahead of others. And if it's in the Chorus group, even better. The new Chorus kit is cheaper than the old version, offers more options for everything and looks awesome. I personally love it.

[Mark McM]

While I can't say what's in the pipeline, I can say a simple USPTO search will show over 20 patents in 2019 alone. Everything from hand controls with no wires to a new freehub body style/engagement methods to cogs as low as 9th to 13 speed cassettes to power meters to 1x drivetrains. And that's just a small amount of the 24 from 2019. If even a fraction of them arrives(some will), that will put Campy ahead of others. And if it's in the Chorus group, even better. The new Chorus kit is cheaper than the old version, offers more options for everything and looks awesome. I personally love it.

I just did a quick search at the USPTO site for patents granted in the last year with assignee name Campagnolo. It's possible I missed a few things in my brief scanning of the results, but I didn't see any fundamentally ground breaking ideas. Mostly it was incremental improvements to existing components. A few interesting trends popped out, though:

There still appears to be a lot of work being done to improve cable actuated shifting (and everybody thought that electronics would kill cable shifters). For electronic shifting, one patent hints at an automatic shifting system. While there are a number of patents on hydraulic disc brakes, there's still some work being done on cable rim brakes and rim brake wheels. There's a nifty thru-axle design, which includes a retracting torque arm, to make thru-axle wheel changes faster and more convenient. And not surprisingly, there are patents for clutch rear derailleurs.

[colker]

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike? Maybe that´s how Campagnolo sees it too. Touring was never only about eccentrics. Most of what i see as gravel is just touring except gravel racing. Will gravel racing become big? Maybe but the fact is most of the cyclists live in cities and you have to drive to ride gravel. I can´t see how this can be "big" in the long term.
MOuntain biking is a niche these days.

[HTupolev]

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike?
They're orthogonal concepts. You can have a gravel touring bike, and some touring bikes might make reasonable gravel bikes for some people. But many gravel bikes are not well-suited to bearing extreme loads, and many touring bikes are not well-equipped for dealing with some gravel, or not as lively as some people want their gravel bikes to be.

For example, the super-long chainstays used on many traditional road tourers are excellent for creating clearance between a rider's heels and rear panniers, but poor for keeping the rear wheel planted in low-traction climbing situations.

[Mark McM]

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike?

I would say no. Touring bikes are meant to carry gear, so they are designed to accommodate racks and bags. This generally means that they have long chainstays (for heel clearance with using panniers), and to keep the center of gravity low, they often more BB drop (lower BB height). They also frequently have low trail front ends, which improves handling with front mounted racks and bags. While you can often ride gravel on a touring bike, the bikes being sold as "gravel bikes" aren't really setup for touring.

[colker]

I would say no. Touring bikes are meant to carry gear, so they are designed to accommodate racks and bags. This generally means that they have long chainstays (for heel clearance with using panniers), and to keep the center of gravity low, they often more BB drop (lower BB height). They also frequently have low trail front ends, which improves handling with front mounted racks and bags. While you can often ride gravel on a touring bike, the bikes being sold as "gravel bikes" aren't really setup for touring.

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.

[Mark McM]

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.

Gravel bikes are more analogous to cyclocross bikes. And yet, most agree that gravel bikes are different enough from cyclocross bikes that they are separate categories.

While you can't argue that gravel bikes are completely different than touring bikes (they both have two wheels and pedals, afterall), in the spectrum of different bike categories, gravel bikes are further from classic touring bikes than they are from some other types of bikes. Heck, I'd even argue that gravel bikes are fairly close to the drop-bar MTBs that were popular a couple of decades ago.

[HTupolev]

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.
I've ridden my touring bike on gravel before, and I'd use it as my gravel bike if I had no other bike with sub-1:1 gears and wider tire clearance than traditional road bikes. But it's not at all how I'd design a gravel bike for myself from the ground up.