Repaired carbon frame devaluation

[Hat]

How much should a carbon frame be devalued if it’s had a repair done to it?

There’s two frames in question, one had a top tube repair done and the other had the driveside chainstay. Both were done professionally by a shop that specializes in carbon bike repair and neither fix is all that visible to the eye unless you look carefully. Paint is not a factor since the frames both had the carbon weave visible where the repairs were done.

I’m thinking both these frames are now worth about 60% of what they would be otherwise (ie worth $300 if the same undamaged frame is worth $500).

Does this sound reasonable?

[kramnnim]

Yes.

[Dino Suegiù]

How much should a carbon frame be devalued if it’s had a repair done to it?

There’s two frames in question, one had a top tube repair done and the other had the driveside chainstay. Both were done professionally by a shop that specializes in carbon bike repair and neither fix is all that visible to the eye unless you look carefully. Paint is not a factor since the frames both had the carbon weave visible where the repairs were done.

I’m thinking both these frames are now worth about 60% of what they would be otherwise (ie worth $300 if the same undamaged frame is worth $500).

Does this sound reasonable?
I think that "60% of undamaged worth" sounds optimistic for a repaired carbon frame, depending on extent/location of the original damage of course. I would think 50% minimum, more likely 40%, for top tube/chainstays/etc. Those aren't trivial areas.

However: unless I really wanted a specific damaged frame and the seller provided repair receipts from a reputable repair house, as well as complete description/documentation of both the prior damage and the subsequent repaired condition, my own interest and investment would probably go immediately to 0%.

There are plenty of undamaged/un-repaired carbon frames available for purchase. Of course, one has to trust that sellers are honoring full disclosure in all cases, and we know that some do not.

[FlashUNC]

Unless there's full documentation, zero in my mind. Plenty of unrepaired carbon frames out there.

[zmalwo]

a simple handlebar slammed onto the top tube repair is nothing major but a repaired DT cracked from a crash is a much different story. The problem is that there's no way to tell if it is former or later. I would not trust any carbon frame that's been involved in a crash no matter what ultrasound scan, X-ray scan shows.

[fignon's barber]

Actually, carbon frames are quite repairable, and a good carbon shop can make a frame just a safe, perhaps even more so, than the original. As for depreciation, hard to say. Carbon frames depreciate so quickly as it is (ie, a two year old $3k carbon frame may fetch $800?), that a well repaired frame may only lose 10 or 20% more. I think carbon loses value so quickly because the shapes and look change so quickly in order to keep up with the "3% more compliant,4% stiffer, 2.32% lighter" motif. For example, ever look at a five year old Tarmac or such? They look ancient. A 5 year old Pegoretti? Classique.

[saab2000]

Actually, carbon frames are quite repairable, and a good carbon shop can make a frame just a safe, perhaps even more so, than the original. As for depreciation, hard to say. Carbon frames depreciate so quickly as it is (ie, a two year old $3k carbon frame may fetch $800?), that a well repaired frame may only lose 10 or 20% more. I think carbon loses value so quickly because the shapes and look change so quickly in order to keep up with the "3% more compliant,4% stiffer, 2.32% lighter" motif. For example, ever look at a five year old Tarmac or such? They look ancient. A 5 year old Pegoretti? Classique.

This is correct, WRT depreciation.

The prices he's mentioning are realistic for used frames.

Provide documentation and pictures, if available, to a buyer. I have a Look 585 with a repaired left chainstay and it's been fine. I am fine with it because even if it fails it's not likely to be catastrophic in nature and the story I got when I bought the frame was believable and I got it for quite cheap with full disclosure of the history.

[buddybikes]

I would think full disclosure/reputation of who fixed it would help.

[rockdude]

I don't know about the % of prices drop but carbon repair is not a big deal. I have been repairing frames for years. Not much harder than paper mache. Never had a problem with my hillbilly repairs, even on CX race bikes that get seriously abused. Hell, I have even made parts without issues. I have purchased some great bikes with minor repairs for a great price. Got a Cervelo S5 that was professionally repaired for $300 a couple of years ago.

[charliedid]

They are worth nothing to me.

[mulp]

Ive ridden a repaired carbon frame and would not have concerns riding a frame that has been repaired. However, I would limit the repairs to top tube and down tube repairs as they are the easiest.

[mtechnica]

I got my Bianchi for dirt cheap because it was repaired on the seat tube near the derailleur clamp, its not even noticeable :banana:

[veggieburger]

I'm in the zero camp, unless the repair came with a transferable warranty to the new owner.

[saab2000]

They are worth nothing to me.

I'm glad that's clear. I was wondering where exactly you stood on this issue. Now I know! :D

[weiwentg]

I've never shopped for a used carbon frame. However, if I were inclined to do so, I think that having a repair might not be a big deal if I can verify that it was done by a reputable shop. It's been said already: a) you can repair carbon to equal or greater than original strength, and b) carbon depreciates very fast (most metal bikes already depreciate pretty fast). I wouldn't pay 100% of what the bike would otherwise be worth, but maybe 60-90%.

[John H.]

Depends on whether you are selling or buying ;)

Seriously- I think repaired carbon is worth nearly zero.

[mtechnica]

If anyone has any worthless repaired 56cm frames PM me and I’ll pay for shipping then properly dispose of them.

[pdmtong]

I used to have a 2008 S-Works tricross cx bike (used for racing and for commuting and for rain (fender mounts)) that developed a down tube hairline crack. And a similar hairline crack on the DS chain stay behind the BB. I decided to send it to Calfee to be repaired knowing I would never get the repair investment back in resale and that the resale just took a nose dive - my assumption was zero.

Repairing carbon is like fixing a car with a salvage title. You fix it because you are keeping it. As a buyer I wouldn't look at a repaired frame unless I knew the seller, the repair and it was a screaming deal. Too many other choices.

I recently sold the s-works complete (gen 1 Force and cheap kysriums) for $750. Sold it on CL - buyer picked it up two hours after posting. dumb luck.

[Pierre]

Repairing carbon is like fixing a car with a salvage title. You fix it because you are keeping it. As a buyer I wouldn't look at a repaired frame unless I knew the seller, the repair and it was a screaming deal. Too many other choices.



This is bang on.

[paredown]

Topical for me--I have been admiring a CF bike that appears to have the handlebar cracks in the top tube...worth repairing, but now I think that they are asking too much money still...

[mhespenheide]

One actual data point:

A carbon fiber Cannondale SuperSix with a cracked dropout sat for months on the NYC craigslist at $150. It's not listed there now, so I'll assume that it sold at $150. That's a best-case scenario; it might not have sold at all, or it might have sold for less.

A quick look through sold listings on eBay suggests an average sale price of ~$450 for SuperSix frames.

So there's one data point for at least 66% devaluation.

On the other hand, repairing a broken dropout is a lot harder than a top tube crack. So the analysis above isn't directly applicable.

[joosttx]

Unless there's full documentation, zero in my mind. Plenty of unrepaired carbon frames out there.

I agree. Broken carbon frame that is repaired is zero unless you are a good friend and I trust you. Then, the deal is a little bit above zero.

[Mike Lopez]

The Mitutoyo catalog used to say “Without data it’s just an opinion”....

A number of years back I did some static & fatigue tests on repaired frames sent to me by several repair houses. They were hoping to get some video and an endorsement for their websites. Seen any real test lab videos on anybodies websites? That pretty much sums up how the testing went.

Due to NDA’s in place I’m not at liberty to share names but I will say some shops were better than others and the results were less about who than where on the frame and how bad the damage was. Process and materials also varied by vendor.

In a nutshell, rear triangle repairs did better than front triangles, especially if there was significant damage to the DT. Those all failed. Some within just a few strokes on a 100k cycle test.

Keep a couple of things in mind. These are accelerated fatigue tests that are designed to break frames relatively quickly. Not simulate what a rider may do over years of use. The second item is that the sample size was limited to a dozen frames or so from various manufacturers. But...they’re all supposed to pass the tests!

Everyone seems to have a different personal tolerance for risk and what’s good enough for some is risky for others. It’s a free country, or used to be, and folks need to make this decision on their own.

I’m not necessarily saying that repaired frames are bad but if there’s any doubt in your mind about the history/repair don’t do it. If this is something you’ll worry about over time then you may not be a good candidate for a repaired frame. Over the years I’ve heard many stories from folks afraid of their fork after a minor spill. Typically we gave them a crash replacement deal and exchanged forks with them so I could test the returns. It’s crazy to be afraid of your bike!

As a few others have already said it’s a buyers market and there’s a lot of undamaged frames out there to choose from.

[pdmtong]

Due to NDA’s in place I’m not at liberty to share names but I will say some shops were better than others and the results were less about who than where on the frame and how bad the damage was. Process and materials also varied by vendor.

In a nutshell, rear triangle repairs did better than front triangles, especially if there was significant damage to the DT. Those all failed. Some within just a few strokes on a 100k cycle test.


Thanks for your insight Mike. In my case the hairlines were discovered during washing and I monitored them for a few rides before deciding hmmm...this is a problem that will only get worse. They were not the result of a crash. Calfee basically put a patch on those areas. I raced/rode it and didn't worry about it. I did not opt for paint to match and decal paint to match - too much money. I slapped a CFRS sticker on it and called it good for a number of years. The buyer wasn't concerned either. Felt really lucky to sell what is perhaps the hardest thing to sell - a repaired carbon cantilever cx bike.

[AngryScientist]

perhaps the hardest thing to sell - a repaired carbon cantilever cx bike.

that s-works was a nice bike though. wish i had one!

[prototoast]

Due to NDA’s in place I’m not at liberty to share names but I will say some shops were better than others and the results were less about who than where on the frame and how bad the damage was. Process and materials also varied by vendor.

In a nutshell, rear triangle repairs did better than front triangles, especially if there was significant damage to the DT. Those all failed. Some within just a few strokes on a 100k cycle test.

I'm curious, without disclosing any specifics, I'm curious if you noticed any general patterns about which repairs held up better? For example, some carbon repairs are super sleek and are virtually impossible to detect visually after the repair has finished, while others pack on quite a bit of visually excessive material. While the former may look more "professional", more material corresponds directly with more strength, and I would imagine even the poorest craftsman, if wrapping a downtube with new fiber that was thicker than the original tube, would end up stronger than the original un-damaged frame.

Since somewhere in between is where most repairs seem to lie, controlling for location on the frame, are there any insights or advice you would share to anyone considering performing a carbon repair (for disclosure, I don't do carbon repairs, I only make virgin frames, but I think about doing repairs from time to time).

[muz]

While the former may look more "professional", more material corresponds directly with more strength, and I would imagine even the poorest craftsman, if wrapping a downtube with new fiber that was thicker than the original tube, would end up stronger than the original un-damaged frame.

I don't think it's so simple. A down tube experiences a lot of torque, and is in fact a dynamic structure. The patch could localize stresses and cause the tube to fail elsewhere.

[charliedid]

I'm glad that's clear. I was wondering where exactly you stood on this issue. Now I know! :D

No grey area here! :)

[GonaSovereign]

If anyone has any worthless repaired 56cm frames PM me and I’ll pay for shipping then properly dispose of them.

Deal. Cervélo S3. Incredible race bike, but another cyclist ran into me at a stoplight and now there are cracks. If you pay the shipping, I’ll include the 3T fork and headset.

[saab2000]

For reference, here is my home-repair 585 Ultra. I bought it on eBay about 4 years ago for a couple hundred dollars. It's my size and I have a soft spot for these French lugged carbon bikes that dates back to the early 1980s.

I've had quite a few of these and was searching for one after I stupidly sold a nearly NOS 585 Ultra with probably 1000 miles on it a few years prior. So when this showed up with an accurate description and a very low price with a full damage disclaimer I snapped it up.

Initially built it up with a 10-speed Campagnolo mishmash and it was fine but eventually sold that off as it was by then a number of generations old and I was enjoying my Shimano experience.

The seller said it had a minor crack in the chainstay but he was unsure if it was a real crack or a clear coat crack but he did the repair himself, rode it a while and then decided to move it. His description was fair and I expected a bike to hang on the wall and hoped for one I could ride. This is key. What are your expectations? Mine were low and the price matched this. The previous owner had raced it and it has clear coat scars to show this. They appear worse in pictures than in real life.

In the end it has exceeded expectations and given me more than my share of my 585 fix. It has thousands of miles since being with me, including some hard ones on hard group rides.

It's currently sporting a Shimano 5800 groupset with some Boyd Altamont Lite wheels and it's a fine racer for my purposes.

Used carbon bikes are worth next to nothing anyway. Repaired ones need to be taken with extremely suspicious minds. This one has worked out in large part because I knew what I was looking at and because my expectations were pretty much zero.

FWIW, I don't think there is a carbon break. There's probably a crack in the clear coat or a slight ding in the chainstay beneath this wrap. I'm not going to unwrap it to find out. If it cracks further I'll retire it.

I would not ride it if this were pretty much anywhere else on the bike.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49437146437_006687ab12_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49436926781_0983d5152e_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48679618433_9038b20ff3_b.jpg

[saab2000]

FWIW, the above ^^^ bike today is out of date and sports “entry level components” but in my racing days it would have been a game changing bicycle. Light, stiff, agile, modern 11-speed drivetrain, 25mm tires at 75 PSI, proper handlebars, great pedals, etc..... I enjoy it today for its aspirational future 30 years ago.