LeMond Composites

[LegendRider]

I'm a huge LeMond fan, but I've learned to be skeptical about his efforts in the bike business. I'm hopeful this actually happens.

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/270229-greg-lemond-launch-new-bikes-spring-investment-new-carbon-tech-suggests

[dbnm]

um, yeah. No.

He closed his last bike company (US made steel bikes) to go into carbon fiber making for planes. or something like that.

This new company will be gone in 2-3 years.

[charliedid]

You just never know.

[fignon's barber]

Solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The big brands buy their $8k msrp frames for $250 from their suppliers.

[oldpotatoe]

and the LeMond website has been updated revealing that new bikes will be launched in spring 2020 through a direct-to-consumer platform.

Without a dealer network to hype his frames? Not sure the "Lemond' name is such that he will be that successful, particularly in this 'all carbon, all the time', way cheap, made in Asia, era. Well made, good riding, inexpensive carbon bikes already exists..not sure how a 'Lemond' name will break out in this very crowded field.

[eddief]

let us beat him into submission cuz it's so much fun.

[coachboyd]

This is more for mass produced carbon parts (think automotive vs bicycle industry). It's not the high modulus stuff that is needed for bike parts.

The Oak Ridge lab is pretty amazing and he's basically working with them. I doubt the cycling industry will hear much about the products they are wanting to do beyond just hearing LeMond's name associated with it.

[572cv]

This is more for mass produced carbon parts (think automotive vs bicycle industry). It's not the high modulus stuff that is needed for bike parts.

The Oak Ridge lab is pretty amazing and he's basically working with them. I doubt the cycling industry will hear much about the products they are wanting to do beyond just hearing LeMond's name associated with it.

That the business is at Oak Ridge is a key factor here. I agree that it will not necessarily be focused on cycling. May Greg enjoy success with his ideas for this enterprise.

[Elefantino]

let us beat him into submission cuz it's so much fun.
Don't understand it, either.

[false_Aest]

Solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The big brands buy their $8k msrp frames for $250 from their suppliers.

You're ignoring the $35-$50k per mold.
4 molds per size. 6 sizes.
$840,000 at the low end.

+18 month development time and a team of 6+ engineers.
+wind tunnel time at $250 - $1000/hr
+ super computer rental (unless you're Specialized)


I'll just be quiet now so folks can have more room to excrete on stuff they don't know that much about.

[Black Dog]

You're ignoring the $35-$50k per mold.
4 molds per size. 6 sizes.
$840,000 at the low end.

+18 month development time and a team of 6+ engineers.
+wind tunnel time at $250 - $1000/hr
+ super computer rental (unless you're Specialized)


I'll just be quiet now so folks can have more room to excrete on stuff they don't know that much about.

Or buy a $250 frame from an open mold vendor and brand it and sell if for $5000. At some point the $250/frame accounts for the capital costs once you sell enough units. Even at a $1,000,000 capital cost you need only sell 4000 frames at $250 to recoup your startup costs. The take home is that there is a huge margin after most capital and overhead costs are factored in.

[redir]

Don't understand it, either.

Me too. Winter sport around these parts it seems.

[GregL]

Or buy a $250 frame from an open mold vendor and brand it and sell if for $5000. At some point the $250/frame accounts for the capital costs once you sell enough units. Even at a $1,000,000 capital cost you need only sell 4000 frames at $250 to recoup your startup costs. The take home is that there is a huge margin after most capital and overhead costs are factored in.
Ummm…. don't you mean $250 in profit on each frame to pay for the $1M startup cost? If you're selling the frame for $250 total, you're not going to be in business long enough to recoup your investment.

Greg

[GregL]

let us beat him into submission cuz it's so much fun.
Not beating him into submission, just acknowledging that his past business ventures have not always been successful. The best bike racer in modern US history and by all accounts a nice guy. His independent business ventures have not done as well. Time will tell on this one. Hope he does well this time!

Greg

[fignon's barber]

You're ignoring the $35-$50k per mold.
4 molds per size. 6 sizes.
$840,000 at the low end.

+18 month development time and a team of 6+ engineers.
+wind tunnel time at $250 - $1000/hr
+ super computer rental (unless you're Specialized)


I'll just be quiet now so folks can have more room to excrete on stuff they don't know that much about.


I ignored nothing. A few years ago I did some work for a midsized European bikemaker and had access to the discussions with the suppliers in Asia. So I have a pretty good idea about what the unit price is. Those development costs you stated would be incurred regardless, along with marketing/promo costs,etc. The point was that lowering the production cost isn't really important, as actual cost to produce a frame is already quite low , and a small piece of the overall cost. I know this is over your head, so please do be quiet.

[Buzz Killington]

Listen, I’ve got a real low IQ. I read the article twice and I don’t understand it. The bikes will be made in the USA, starting this spring, and they still don’t have a manufacturing location set up? Why build bikes, that you hope to sell in mass quantities, in the USA when most/all of the parts suppliers are in Asia? E-bikes? That market is so dynamic right now, good luck with that.

Like others said, you still need to pay for molds, engineering, etc. regardless of where the bikes are made. I would think that the costs for carbon, while still very important, are just a small part of the final equation. Also, if the carbon product hasn’t been sold in to any industry yet, you’re going to try proof of concept in the bike industry? I guess this is bashing LeMond. Sorry. I think I did the same before in another thread about him. Don’t know how I live with myself.

[tomato coupe]

Not beating him into submission, just acknowledging that his past business ventures have not always been successful. The best bike racer in modern US history and by all accounts a nice guy. His independent business ventures have not done as well. Time will tell on this one. Hope he does well this time!

Yes, he seems very likable. History shows him to be very litigious, however, and most of his ventures don't end well.

[justinrchan]

Not beating him into submission, just acknowledging that his past business ventures have not always been successful. The best bike racer in modern US history and by all accounts a nice guy. His independent business ventures have not done as well. Time will tell on this one. Hope he does well this time!

Greg

I totally agree with this. Granted Trek pulled the plug on his bikes but his other ventures don’t exist now. Indoor spin bikes? Revolution trainer? Steel bike? I’m rooting for him but would be leery of any sustained business.

[Black Dog]

Ummm…. don't you mean $250 in profit on each frame to pay for the $1M startup cost? If you're selling the frame for $250 total, you're not going to be in business long enough to recoup your investment.

Greg

Yes. Sort of. I just mean that you recoup startup cost selling 4000 units at $250/unit. No profit etc... Should have clarified that.

[Black Dog]

Yes, he seems very likable. History shows him to be very litigious, however, and most of his ventures don't end well.

Well if you mean litigious when Lance had Trek screw him over, then yes. Other than that I am not sure how or why he has been litigious. I like the guy and wish him well and I agree that some of his past ventures have not done very well...and this is true of so many now successful entrepreneurs. Time will tell.

[tomato coupe]

Well if you mean litigious when Lance had Trek screw him over, then yes. Other than that I am not sure how or why he has been litigious. I like the guy and wish him well and I agree that some of his past ventures have not done very well...and this is true of so many now successful entrepreneurs. Time will tell.

He has been involved in quite a few lawsuits, not just the TREK mess. It just seems to be how he functions in the world.

[Black Dog]

He has been involved in quite a few lawsuits, not just the TREK mess. It just seems to be how he functions in the world.

Fair enough.

[adub]

It's saddening when people process something they heard, what other people say, and then the flawed logic that follows when they expound how they know of someones business like it's their own first hand knowledge.

[dbnm]

My knowledge with the Lemond company is first. Ordering a Lemond Washoe was a giant pain in the a$$. Lots of poor communication and chaos on their part. I asked for a certain paint scheme (which I was paying for) and was told that it was not possible until it came out a few months later as "Greg's idea".

Delays in building the bike because they were ordering black (painted) forks from Enve, only to remove the paint to repaint them. I was told they did not know that they could order raw forks.

Anyway, I was them luck. They will make bikes until their attention (or money) us pulled into another direction.

Sorry for the ramble.

[Alaska Mike]

Loved the LeMond Revolution trainer. Have two of them, which have seen a LOT of use over the years. Might be loud, but they're extremely well-made and the "road feel" is second to none.

Bought the Power Pilot, and immediately regretted it. I think the company just lost all sorts of steam around that time, a couple years before the whole trainer market exploded. I think if they had've come out with a quieter version with decent ANT+ integration, they could have been in the mix today. Instead...

Somehow I think this new venture will go along the same lines.

[Fivethumbs]

Lemond wedges were pretty cool.

[Nomadmax]

If I can swing the $, I'm getting one of his new bikes. I've met the guy a few times and I hope he gets rich.

[Mikej]

Solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The big brands buy their $8k msrp frames for $250 from their suppliers.

Seems like maybe a little bit off- Most big brands are heavily invested in product development and manufacturing. By your comment, it would seem like suppliers are developing new products on their own and selling for not even a penny on the dollar? Why don’t the suppliers just bypass the big brands?

[Black Dog]

Seems like maybe a little bit off- Most big brands are heavily invested in product development and manufacturing. By your comment, it would seem like suppliers are developing new products on their own and selling for not even a penny on the dollar? Why don’t the suppliers just bypass the big brands?

They do. Giant and Merida are good examples. There are a lot of open mold frames under many different brands and also unbranded frames that can be purchased directly through Aliexpress.

[C50]

I think Greg is already pretty wealthy ($40 million net worth by quick searches and even if that is exaggerated by $5-$10 million I think that still qualifies as doing pretty well) and a good portion of that comes from real estate investments and other business ventures, certainly not bike race winnings. People bring up various laws suits, to my knowledge he has prevailed in all of them (at least the ones I am aware of) which is some indication he was correct in those situations so good on him for standing up for what he believes to be right.

I hope the new bikes are nice and that portion of the business at least sustains itself but I would guess the bikes are because of Greg's passion for bikes. The impact on industrial scale applications for the reduced cost carbon fiber is where the real business and money exists, the bike industry money barely moves the needle in comparison. Aerospace, defense, automotive and wind industries I suspect are the real focus. I don't think it is an exact comparison to Elon Musk and Tesla but the same idea may apply. Since you need to produce a ton of a particular type of stainless steel for your space project you might as well make more of it to reduce the costs by increasing volume and make a crazy looking space age truck to go with it and bring in some cash from over 250,000 deposits, another huge wave of publicity and watch your stock price grow after most people ridiculed you. I am not saying Greg is Elon Musk by any means but since you need to start production of the material anyway it only makes sense to use his name and bicycles as an outlet for getting production started until the real orders of size come in from the intended industries.

I have met Greg a few times, I would never claim to know him (I did spend a night in a bar until 3am with him and Phil Liggett along with a few others after they gave a talk at Stanford many years ago but most of those stories will not be told on the internet) and if I were a betting man which I am not I would put my money on Greg every time.

[Heisenberg]

Or buy a $250 frame from an open mold vendor and brand it and sell if for $5000. At some point the $250/frame accounts for the capital costs once you sell enough units. Even at a $1,000,000 capital cost you need only sell 4000 frames at $250 to recoup your startup costs. The take home is that there is a huge margin after most capital and overhead costs are factored in.

most of this.

and it’s why we all ride carbon in some way shape or form, even at the general detriment of fit.

[sales guy]

Yes, he seems very likable. History shows him to be very litigious, however, and most of his ventures don't end well.

I know Greg and his family kind of well. I've been to the house and him and Kathy have cooked for me. I've also worked with him on some projects in the past and currently. So I guess I'm not a stranger.

With regards to the comment of him being litigious, yeah, he is. He has to be at times. He has been taken advantage of many times. Whether by his father or to his general manager a couple years ago in Minneapolis. He is a bit too trusting. People have used his name and celebrity profile to enrich themselves. And sadly he's gotten screwed in the end.

The bike company with his dad.
Trek.
Oakley.
The Lance stuff.
The resort.
The new(old) LeMond bikes(Washoe).
The RevMasters.
The Revolution trainers.
His GM when in Minneapolis.
The new carbon company.
His name.
Website being created to slam him.

It's crazy the amount of people who've tried to screw him over. And even after all of it, he is still super nice and again, a bit too trusting. I don't think he's litigious cause he wants to be. I think it's just a lot of bad luck. Look at what happened in 1986. His brother in law shot him accidentally.<--- His crazy bad luck.

I wish him only good luck and success. He's an amazing guy to talk to and know.

If anyone wants to know about the things I've listed, just ask.


As for the carbon and why they are doing it? Cause carbon fiber is expensive to make. It uses a ton of energy and takes a long time to make. And if they can make it in the US cheaper, companies like Toray will have some serious competition. It'll help make things like wind turbines cheaper. It'll help make carbon more affordable for cars and planes. Why not try for that? It's 100% about bikes for this venture. He has a much larger picture. Yes, he is doing some bikes. We've spoke about him showing them at NAHBS. Not sure if they'll be ready by then but if he wants to do, I say go for it.

[54ny77]

Huge Greg fan. Had pleasure of meeting him once, so gracious.

And I once owned a steel LeMond, rode & raced alot on it. Great bike.

More power to him on his venture, I hope he's successful.

He's probably forgotten more than than most would ever know about nearly every aspect of cycling. Sheesh, armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Any of the apparent critics-in-the-know here win a few big pro tours and races (to put that list mildly), have their own bike company, swim in the upper echelons of sport for 40+ years?

Ahh, didn't think so. :rolleyes: :bike:

[ibis]

I hope it works out for him. I worked with him on some projects in the past and yeah, he's not the easiest to work with. Back then it was more that he never answered the phone or emails or tried to pass things off on his son, whom never answered the phone or emails. Maybe he's way more into this project though and more motivated. We'll see.

[flying]

Just my 2cents but....

I think he would have done well to re-open a smaller
steel frame business.

Considering the resurgence in steel & the new tube-sets he may
have had a better chance at success

In any case wish him success in his new venture but carbon is a crowded
market

[SpeedyChix]

As @Sales Guy noted, the picture here is much larger than bikes. The bikes are probably more of a footnote to the larger product goals of a more economical high-quality domestic carbon fiber.

[zambenini]

I like Greg. Before my time, but I do remember his association with a Taco Bell cup maybe?

Also, I want a Washoe. 57cm.

:banana:

[alexihnen]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/1052x700/lemond_2020_691b774cd02612ad9272e773ffb8b7c5cd57e0 49.jpg

[sales guy]

I hope it works out for him. I worked with him on some projects in the past and yeah, he's not the easiest to work with. Back then it was more that he never answered the phone or emails or tried to pass things off on his son, whom never answered the phone or emails. Maybe he's way more into this project though and more motivated. We'll see.

This is very true, that he hands things off to others. And that has led to issues in the past. I have a similar issue right now with late replies. It is what it is. The problem is they are still small and getting pulled every which direction. And when he did have others handling things, some people ended up screwing him. So the family is more involved now, Even Geoff. He wasn't really involved when they were in MPLS. He is now though.

Like I said before, I wish him luck and success. The guy and the whole family are super nice.

[sales guy]

I like Greg. Before my time, but I do remember his association with a Taco Bell cup maybe?

Also, I want a Washoe. 57cm.

:banana:

After the Worlds win, he was doing some ads for Taco Bell.

The Washoe was made by ZEN Fabrication which closed up and that's why he was having trouble with those frames. ZEN was overpromising and under delivering. It lead to problems for a few different companies using them.

[Hindmost]

...After the Worlds win, he was doing some ads for Taco Bell...

You could get a free one of these with a meal. The bottle, I mean.

[polar8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oon45kkLzsQ

[mcteague]

Anyone recall one of his first ventures...Team LeMond? It was some type of club deal and one of the perks, and the only thing I really wanted, was the team jersey. It took FOREVER to arrive , so much so that I gave up hope. When it came it was not as expected. It was a cheap copy of the jersey. It looked nice but not worth wearing. Lately I found it deep in a closet and hung it on the wall as decoration.

That said, I have never met Greg but he is one of the few ex-pros I would like to.

Tim

[sales guy]

You could get a free one of these with a with a meal. The bottle, I mean.

At one point, when the deal ended, he was still offering the bottles but with a black sticker covering the Taco Bell logo.


Oh, and the bikes won't be at NAHBS after all. They won't have them done in time. Just spoke to them about It tonight. Still up in the air if he will attend though.

[Hawker]

At one point, when the deal ended, he was still offering the bottles but with a black sticker covering the Taco Bell logo.


Oh, and the bikes won't be at NAHBS after all. They won't have them done in time. Just spoke to them about It tonight. Still up in the air if he will attend though.

Hope he attends, would love to meet him.

[sales guy]

Hope he attends, would love to meet him.

We have a call for Monday about it. Should hopefully know then.