A 3 hour, 21 minute documentary about -7

[Elefantino]

A 3 hour, 21 minute documentary about -7 will debut this month at Sundance. It's made by Marina Zenovich, who directed docs about Robin Williams and Roman Polanski, for ESPN.

I could barely stomach three-plus hours of "The Irishman" and I like Scorsese.

[false_Aest]

OK. my google is failing me.

what's -7?

[johnniecakes]

OK. my google is failing me.

what's -7?

I believe he is referring to Lance Armstrong and his 7 TDF victories

[Tickdoc]

I can barely stomach any of his podcasts when my “ I’m still a fan” cycling buddy sends them to me. How the hell am I supposed to endure this?

[tbike4]

https://www.sundance.org/projects/lance

[oldpotatoe]

I can barely stomach any of his podcasts when my “ I’m still a fan” cycling buddy sends them to me. How the hell am I supposed to endure this?

Errrr, don't watch it? I don't need 3 hours and 21 minutes to know LA-7 was a turd...

[Burnette]

It was pro cycling at it's peak, it brought people into the sport, people watching the sport, people buying and riding bicycles. He was around the biggest names, was the king of it all and has stories about all those people, races and back stories.

The fall from grace, the fallout, the flawed human experience are all a part of that same story. Abhorrence of the figure is understandable, he gets the reasons why it's that way, but if you want a glimpse into those days, he's the guy that knows it best.

[fignon's barber]

I find Lance interesting. I'll watch it. Thanks for the heads up.

[Hawker]

There have already been at least four documentaries done about this. Is there anything interesting we haven't already seen or heard?

[Burnette]

There have already been at least four documentaries done about this. Is there anything interesting we haven't already seen or heard?

It was a crazy time in cycling, so many people were really into it then. I see it like "Behind The Music" shows, it's interesting to see what really went on backstage.

Will there be new stuff? Probably not, but it looks like it's going to be well made, I want to see what they do with the material.

[Hawker]

It was a crazy time in cycling, so many people were really into it then. I see it like "Behind The Music" shows, it's interesting to see what really went on backstage.

Will there be new stuff? Probably not, but it looks like it's going to be well made, I want to see what they do with the material.

It was "crazy" indeed. For the first time in my life "regular" people knew about bike racing and cyclists were seen in a slightly better light. That's part of what made it so depressing and disappointing in the end.

[Burnette]

It was "crazy" indeed. For the first time in my life "regular" people knew about bike racing and cyclists were seen in a slightly better light. That's part of what made it so depressing and disappointing in the end.

Exactly. At work, with family, if I was on my bike people all around would ask me the latest of how "we" (winning American in the Tour!) were doing in the tour. The bike biz exploded, more people got into riding. And the doped racing? It was incredible to watch. The break aways, the climbing attacks, counter attacks. Team time trials and oh, the sprints.

Now it's like a band that made some good music and we rehash the dark side of the drug abuse that went on while they were putting out albums.

[Louis]

There's no doubt that the guy's a cheat, on the other hand, I also know that I can't the only one here who years ago had some young gal yell "Go Lance!" as she passed me in a car.

But yes, he's still a bum.

[Vientomas]

F Lance.

[RonW87]

The cheating isn't the reason he's vilified.

[grateful]

Well said. And Mr. Armstrong raised cycling awareness in America which allowed me to watch Paris Roubaix live.

That era also got me back on the bike.

I have never spoken to Lance so I try not to be to judgmental. Hell, I have my own issues to work on. Walk a mile and all that

It was pro cycling at it's peak, it brought people into the sport, people watching the sport, people buying and riding bicycles. He was around the biggest names, was the king of it all and has stories about all those people, races and back stories.

The fall from grace, the fallout, the flawed human experience are all a part of that same story. Abhorrence of the figure is understandable, he gets the reasons why it's that way, but if you want a glimpse into those days, he's the guy that knows it best.

[jamesdak]

F Lance.

^This!

Besides, we still have a real champion.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zmXUTU1K5pc/UxXBmGgYeNI/AAAAAAAABuU/jQyeDxE2Lto/s1600/20140303073328_00002.jpg

[BryanE]

Four pages.
Six if somebody says something nice about LA.

[jemdet]

Lance talking Lance is - and always has been - insufferable.

[charliedid]

Looks great, I'll watch it.

[pdmtong]

can someone remind me if he ever disclosed HOW he cheated, as in the various ways they doped (when how who) as well as evaded the testing protocols?

we all know he did it. and what he did. and why.

but HOW?

[FlashUNC]

can someone remind me if he ever disclosed HOW he cheated, as in the various ways they doped (when how who) as well as evaded the testing protocols?

we all know he did it. and what he did. and why.

but HOW?

Tyler Hamilton outlined it in some detail in his book as to the how. Everyone got a specific cocktail based on a bit of testing and learning to see who responded best to what drugs, EPO, HGH and all that, with Ferrari as the doctor the guys were mostly going to. Lots of shuffling the drugs around via wives and girlfriends since they weren't scrutinized as much as official team personnel. And later they moved from in-season drug programs to blood transfusions for the third weeks of Tours.

[oldpotatoe]

It was pro cycling at it's peak, it brought people into the sport, people watching the sport, people buying and riding bicycles. He was around the biggest names, was the king of it all and has stories about all those people, races and back stories.

The fall from grace, the fallout, the flawed human experience are all a part of that same story. Abhorrence of the figure is understandable, he gets the reasons why it's that way, but if you want a glimpse into those days, he's the guy that knows it best.

When it comes to netflix or something, I probably will watch too..:eek:

[oldpotatoe]

can someone remind me if he ever disclosed HOW he cheated
Tyler Hamilton outlined it in some detail in his book as to the how. Everyone got a specific cocktail based on a bit of testing and learning to see who responded best to what drugs, EPO, HGH and all that, with Ferrari as the doctor the guys were mostly going to. Lots of shuffling the drugs around via wives and girlfriends since they weren't scrutinized as much as official team personnel. And later they moved from in-season drug programs to blood transfusions for the third weeks of Tours.

With a decent doctor and intimate knowledge of the rules, amounts, etc., probably wasn't that hard then..probably tougher now but sure, still out there, in every professional(and lots of amateur) sport in existence...
I think the most common these days is blood doping via your own blood..transfusions..I don't think there is a test for that. Maybe circumstantial, finding empty bags, needles and such but not for actual 'your blood back in', type stuff. Still use the really antiquated hematocrit level test. Biological passport..these big boys hematocrit stays amazingly steady during a 3 week race..it 'should' go down..hmmm....

Geez, even golfers dope.

[KonaSS]

I will watch. I do find Lance 2.0 interesting as a human. I listen to his podcast. I am not sure I would ever want to be his friend. But I think I find his thoughts and opinions interesting cause they are often different from mine, and he does have great knowledge and insight of the sport.

I also think that Lance doesn't get the credit for the incredible rise in popularity of cycling in the US during his reign. How many bikes were sold (even by custom builders)? How much more coverage do we get of the sport do we get now? A rising tide lifts all boats and all that.

[jemdet]

A rising tide lifts all boats and all that.

Except for the ones that were shot full of holes

[KonaSS]

Except for the ones that were shot full of holes

I don't know what this means.

Not in the industry, but I would bet if you looked at the total sales of the vast majority of bike manufacturers, bikes shops, etc. before and during his time in the sport, you would see a noticeable upturn.

[dgauthier]

(...) Now it's like a band that made some good music and we rehash the dark side of the drug abuse that went on while they were putting out albums.

Now it's like a band that was lip-syncing their live shows...

"-7." I hadn't heard that one before. I like it.

I agree with Vientomas and jamesdak: F Lance.

[Burnette]

Now it's like a band that was lip-syncing their live shows...

"-7." I hadn't heard that one before. I like it.

I agree with Vientomas and jamesdak: F Lance.

It's like everybody on the stage at the Grammys was lip syncing :banana:

It doesn't absolve Lance and he deserves all of the vilification aimed at him.

[Elefantino]

Now it's like a band that was lip-syncing their live shows...

"-7." I hadn't heard that one before. I like it.

I agree with Vientomas and jamesdak: F Lance.

And a cover band at that because there were two good docs about him already.

I raised a lot of money for the guy and I still agree with the Ancient Spud:

He's a turd.

[Black Dog]

Exactly. At work, with family, if I was on my bike people all around would ask me the latest of how "we" (winning American in the Tour!) were doing in the tour. The bike biz exploded, more people got into riding. And the doped racing? It was incredible to watch. The break aways, the climbing attacks, counter attacks. Team time trials and oh, the sprints.

Now it's like a band that made some good music and we rehash the dark side of the drug abuse that went on while they were putting out albums.

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... :rolleyes: Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!

[Burnette]

I will watch. I do find Lance 2.0 interesting as a human. I listen to his podcast. I am not sure I would ever want to be his friend. But I think I find his thoughts and opinions interesting cause they are often different from mine, and he does have great knowledge and insight of the sport.

I also think that Lance doesn't get the credit for the incredible rise in popularity of cycling in the US during his reign. How many bikes were sold (even by custom builders)? How much more coverage do we get of the sport do we get now? A rising tide lifts all boats and all that.

Like most, Lance is multifaceted. I really enjoyed the podcast of Lance and Bobke talking about the past, the people, the bikes, the races, it's a real glimpse into what it was like then.

And people can hate Lance, he deserves it, but there's no denying that he did raise cycling to an amazing level of awareness. Not just here either, but worldwide. And your last point has always been my rant, they all knew it was going on, promoters, teams/riders, component/bike makers and they all made millions and millions from the "show". And then they acted like only one dude did it. The truth is that doping never left after Lance did and it was there before he came. He was just really, really good at it.

[Black Dog]

With a decent doctor and intimate knowledge of the rules, amounts, etc., probably wasn't that hard then..probably tougher now but sure, still out there, in every professional(and lots of amateur) sport in existence...
I think the most common these days is blood doping via your own blood..transfusions..I don't think there is a test for that. Maybe circumstantial, finding empty bags, needles and such but not for actual 'your blood back in', type stuff. Still use the really antiquated hematocrit level test. Biological passport..these big boys hematocrit stays amazingly steady during a 3 week race..it 'should' go down..hmmm....

Geez, even golfers dope.

Easily picked up with the biological passport protocols when WADA is not working against the testers to prevent positives. WADA has very little credibility among athletes any more.

[Burnette]

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... :rolleyes: Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!

We'll have to agree to disagree then. YouTube is full of awesome riding from those days. They doped but they still had to ride. The climbing was just amazing. After so long on a climb, there were awesome attacks, then amazing counter attacks. Hoe could they even do that! Drugs!

The sprints, the breakaways, racing was awesome back then.

[jemdet]

I don't know what this means.

Not in the industry, but I would bet if you looked at the total sales of the vast majority of bike manufacturers, bikes shops, etc. before and during his time in the sport, you would see a noticeable upturn.

I guess Filippo Simeoni decided to take his boat and sail home.

The sales statement is probably true on the whole, but the guy in the Della Santa jersey would like a word.

The "everyone did it and people only focus on Lance" argument is pretty tired. It wasn't just the doping.

[Black Dog]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. YouTube is full of awesome riding from those days. They doped but they still had to ride. The climbing was just amazing. After so long on a climb, there were awesome attacks, then amazing counter attacks. Hoe could they even do that! Drugs!

The sprints, the breakaways, racing was awesome back then.

Well outside the tour yes, in the tour not so much and it does not take drugs to race like that. In fact when everyone is super doped then you see the best doped rider climb away from everyone, no counter attacks just a Lance TT to the finish line. Watch racing before EPO and you will be amazed at how dynamic it was. The 86, 87, and 89 tours come to mind.

[peanutgallery]

-7 got to keep most of his wealth and you would think he'd be happy with that, but he probably misses the adulation and what not as he is and always has been... selfish. Hence, the contant PR campaign to rehabilitate the image

As a narcissist and sociopath, fawning and free stuff is the key to his cold, dark heart. Assuming all of his Livestrong branded stuff is getting a little dated and worn out. Being a pariah is the worst thing that could happen....and deservedly so

[choke]

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... :rolleyes: Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!The TdFs during the -7 years were sooo boring that I stopped watching or even following them. And I haven't returned.

[Mark McM]

Tyler Hamilton outlined it in some detail in his book as to the how. Everyone got a specific cocktail based on a bit of testing and learning to see who responded best to what drugs, EPO, HGH and all that, with Ferrari as the doctor the guys were mostly going to. Lots of shuffling the drugs around via wives and girlfriends since they weren't scrutinized as much as official team personnel. And later they moved from in-season drug programs to blood transfusions for the third weeks of Tours.

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

[bicycletricycle]

I'm excited , Armstrong's has lived a crazy life.

[FlashUNC]

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

I don't think we'll ever be getting that. That would be dwelling on what he got caught doing, and that's not in keeping with the rehab campaign. He'd rather talk about the fun stuff in his past.

[pdmtong]

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

thanks - I know we all have heard generally how it was done but I just did not recall anything specific, especially said by -7 himself.

[Tony T]

I can barely stomach any of his podcasts when my “ I’m still a fan” cycling buddy sends them to me. How the hell am I supposed to endure this?

You do know that you don’t have to listen to those podcasts or watch the documentary, don’t you?

[prototoast]

-7 got to keep most of his wealth and you would think he'd be happy with that, but he probably misses the adulation and what not as he is and always has been... selfish. Hence, the contant PR campaign to rehabilitate the image

As a narcissist and sociopath, fawning and free stuff is the key to his cold, dark heart. Assuming all of his Livestrong branded stuff is getting a little dated and worn out. Being a pariah is the worst thing that could happen....and deservedly so

Ignoring whether or not anyone should support him after all that has transpired, as a person who is still alive, he's got to do something with his time. He hasn't developed an easily transferrable skillset--he knows bike racing and how to shill products, that's about it. I'm 7 years younger than he was when he was banned from cycling, and if someone told me now I had to completely change careers, I would struggle. I'm sure many people think that's only fair punishment for what he's done, but it seems unreasonable to expect him to impose additional arbitrary punishments on himself just because many think he hasn't been punished enough.

If you could make a million dollars doing a three week podcast during the Tour de France, would you say no?

[Tony Edwards]

I find Armstrong a really interesting figure and would absolutely watch this documentary. He is a seriously flawed human being but I find it hard to understand the outright hatred that some members have toward him.

[cash05458]

Four pages.
Six if somebody says something nice about LA.

lol...indeed...

"I also think that Lance doesn't get the credit for the incredible rise in popularity of cycling in the US during his reign." ? Well, he got tons of credit...and you know where he mostly got that credit? Everyone staying silent because they were selling so many trek bikes and other lance nike et al related crap...

[colker]

I find Armstrong a really interesting figure and would absolutely watch this documentary. He is a seriously flawed human being but I find it hard to understand the outright hatred that some members have toward him.

He is a bully.

[Old School]

am I the only person who is a little bit creeped out that 21 divided by 3 is guess what?

[Seramount]

might watch it, dunno. depends on how bored I am at the time it's available for viewing.

they make movies and docs about vile human beings all of the time. people that were responsible for seriously horrible acts...war crimes, serial killings, etc.

LA was a narcissistic jerkwad who cheated at a sport, not exactly in the same league as Hitler, Pol Pot, Dahmer, Bundy, and a host of other murderous, criminal types.

it would kinda suck if he profited from the film tho.

really don't have the energy to wage a life-long hate campaign on someone as insignificant as a bicycle racer.

[Hellgate]

I'll watch it. It's been interesting watching him try to determine where to go, what to do and how to act. The behavioral scientist in me suspects his childhood has had a significant influence on his adult behavior.

I've ridden with him several times and he's what he appears to be in the docs. It's sad to see a person who "lashes out" and struggles with how to interact with others.

[peanutgallery]

If you're rich and bored...millions of better ways to spend your time. He wants the fame/fawning. If you want a hoot, check out his IG page. The comments are brutal yet funny. -7 is trying, but failing

Ignoring whether or not anyone should support him after all that has transpired, as a person who is still alive, he's got to do something with his time. He hasn't developed an easily transferrable skillset--he knows bike racing and how to shill products, that's about it. I'm 7 years younger than he was when he was banned from cycling, and if someone told me now I had to completely change careers, I would struggle. I'm sure many people think that's only fair punishment for what he's done, but it seems unreasonable to expect him to impose additional arbitrary punishments on himself just because many think he hasn't been punished enough.

If you could make a million dollars doing a three week podcast during the Tour de France, would you say no?

[Louis]

am I the only person who is a little bit creeped out that 21 divided by 3 is guess what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

See below for "7" - they're right !!!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/17/fa/9017fa9bcaddf454fe9a966c35f8d199.jpg

[Nomadmax]

Lance wasn't good for the entire cycling industry. Just ask Gary Klein or Greg LeMond.

[Skenry]

Lance wasn't good for the entire cycling industry. Just ask Gary Klein or Greg LeMond.

And unless they walked into a room filled with old cyclists, no one would even know who they are.

[Black Dog]

And unless they walked into a room filled with old cyclists, no one would even know who they are.

Well they know who they are and what was done to them. And the reason why they are less known now is because they were pushed out.

[Skenry]

Well they know who they are and what was done to them. And the reason why they are less known now is because they were pushed out.


Up or down on the list there is a current thread about a new LeMond bike company. Even here, where people tend to like him, the overwhelming sentiment about it is "Meh".

Lance is who he is because he is the person that he is. He succeeded at the Tour, in marketing and in business. Knock him down and he rises back. Klein and LeMond have a history of not being good businessmen.

Did Lance cheat? Yep. Do most people care? Nope.

[FlashUNC]

And unless they walked into a room filled with old cyclists, no one would even know who they are.

Lance last raced nearly a decade ago. Ain't like his pool of fans is getting any larger either from seeing him race.