44mm head tube versus 1 1/8.

[XXtwindad]

I realize there might have been a thread on this before, so apologies for any redundancies. Contemplating the build for the last bike I'll every buy (for myself) It will most likely be a very light steel bike. Columbus Spirit, probably.

Does a bigger (44mm) head tube negate the weight savings of a lighter steel bike? I've heard that several times. I'm also aware that the conventional thinking is that is makes the bike much stiffer on the front end.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Clean39T]

If you're doing really oversized steel tubing (downtube) and a carbon fork, and looking for maximum stiffness, then sure, go with the 44HT.

But if you're going for a dreamy steel ride, get a sweet steel fork on there and keep the smaller headtube diameter and the other tubes more reasonably sized.

Check out AndySTI's Alliance for an example of a Spirit bike that splits the difference and looks the business.

[XXtwindad]

If you're doing really oversized steel tubing (downtube) and a carbon fork, and looking for maximum stiffness, then sure, go with the 44HT.

But if you're going for a dreamy steel ride, get a sweet steel fork on there and keep the smaller headtube diameter and the other tubes more reasonably sized.

Check out AndySTI's Alliance for an example of a Spirit bike that splits the difference and looks the business.

Haha. I know. Thanks. That was the inspiration for the steel bike. Also, his bike was the inspiration for my Ti All-Road bike. Np plans for a tandem bike, Andy? Good :)

[unterhausen]

steel fork or carbon? I wouldn't put a 44 ht on a frame built for a steel fork unless weight is no problem. I know people have done it, just my preference.

I used to really hate the look of 44mm ht, but now there are numerous tapered ht available that don't look bad

[charliedid]

I realize there might have been a thread on this before, so apologies for any redundancies. Contemplating the build for the last bike I'll every buy (for myself) It will most likely be a very light steel bike. Columbus Spirit, probably.

Does a bigger (44mm) head tube negate the weight savings of a lighter steel bike? I've heard that several times. I'm also aware that the conventional thinking is that is makes the bike much stiffer on the front end.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It looks better with chubby carbon forks.

Stiffer schmiffer.

[XXtwindad]

It looks better with chubby carbon forks.

Stiffer schmiffer.

What looks better with chubby carbon forks?

[charliedid]

What looks better with chubby carbon forks?

Sorry 44

[FlashUNC]

No need for a 44mm headtube with Spirit. Plenty stiff as is.

[false_Aest]

I'm going to assume that you're going with rim brakes.
If so, 1.125" is great.
If not, there is an ever decreasing amount of forks that are 1.125 disc.

Same with through-axle.

[Mark McM]

I doubt that a 44mm head tube adds much stiffness to the frame over a 1 1/8" head tube*. The reason is because the load paths between the headset bearings and the top tube and downtube are very short, with little of the loading passing along the length of the headtube. The added stiffness comes from the tapered fork that fits into the 44mm head tube.

*Unless the head tube is exceptionally long

[Kirk007]

Steel bike I'd go 1 1/8 particularly rim brake. I will say that I think my 333FAB ALS, which uses a tapered headtube, looks ok with the steel pipes but its also built to be a burly quasi dropbar mountain/bike packing 650b/47mm tire bike. I also think the endless quest for front end stiffness is over the top for most applications, starting with overbuilt carbon forks.

[prototoast]

I doubt that a 44mm head tube adds much stiffness to the frame over a 1 1/8" head tube*. The reason is because the load paths between the headset bearings and the top tube and downtube are very short, with little of the loading passing along the length of the headtube. The added stiffness comes from the tapered fork that fits into the 44mm head tube.

*Unless the head tube is exceptionally long

The stiffness doesn't come from the head tube itself, the stiffness comes from being able to use a tapered fork, and a larger diameter downtube.

[joosttx]

No need for a 44mm headtube with Spirit. Plenty stiff as is.

I would copy Flash’s choices. He got the steel bike thing dialed.

[tuscanyswe]

If not disc then 11/8 imo.

[Themountaintop]

As previously noted Spirit is a stiff steel, If you're going disc brakes then sure 44 is probably better. If you're going traditional you probably don't need the 44 diameter head tube.

[Heisenberg]

OS HTs mostly just add (copious) weight on steel & ti road bikes. stick with standard, even with disc.

[philhan89]

1 1/8 does not feel as "front end glued to the road" when descending, it is totally confident just not as much as a tapered head tube. With that being said, my steel bike is 1 1/8, the only tapered head tube bikes i have ridden have been aluminium and carbon. In the end, I prefer my 1 1/8 steel for riding wise and aesthetic wise...

[tuscanyswe]

OS HTs mostly just add (copious) weight on steel & ti road bikes. stick with standard, even with disc.

Even with discs? What forks do we get to choose from then?

[XXtwindad]

Even with discs? What forks do we get to choose from then?

I was kind of curious myself. I think Whiskey might make a straight disc fork. Inevitably, it would be post mount, though.

[Mark McM]

Even with discs? What forks do we get to choose from then?

Disc brakes present different loads on the tubes the calipers are attached to (forks and stays), but they have no affect on the loads seen by the rest of the frame. The head tube (and steerer) sees the same loads regardless of the brake type.

[Mark McM]

As previously noted Spirit is a stiff steel,

After a quick review of the Columbus catalog, the opposite appears to be true. All steel alloys have the equivalent modulus of elasticity, so steel tube stiffness is governed chiefly the diameter and wall thickness (diameter being the main variable). Like Columbus's other tube sets, Spirit tubes are available in a variety of diameters, so different Spirit tubes will have different stiffnesses. But for the same diameter tubes, Spirit tubes have thinner walls than other Columbus tube sets. this makes Spirit tubes lighter, but also less stiff, then the same diameter tubes from other tube sets.

[tuscanyswe]

Disc brakes present different loads on the tubes the calipers are attached to (forks and stays), but they have no affect on the loads seen by the rest of the frame. The head tube (and steerer) sees the same loads regardless of the brake type.

Im on board with this i was wondering what forks he knew that is made for disc brakes and 11/8 steerers. Very limited selection.

[robertbb]

Please excuse my ignorance...

Does a 44mm HT allow the use of what Giant/Canyon refer to as "OD2" forks? Namely, 1 1/4-inch at the steerer tube and 1 1/2-inch bottom bearing (crown)?

Is that what we're talking about here?

[cyan]

The stiffness doesn't come from the head tube itself, the stiffness comes from being able to use a tapered fork, and a larger diameter downtube.

This pretty much.

[Heisenberg]

Disc brakes present different loads on the tubes the calipers are attached to (forks and stays), but they have no affect on the loads seen by the rest of the frame. The head tube (and steerer) sees the same loads regardless of the brake type.

this.

the forks exist, if you know where to find them. or if you make them.

disc steel & ti bikes can be quite heavy owing to OS headtubes, unfortunately. it's market forces dictating supply owing to composite bikes re: fork avail.

[David Kirk]

Pick the steerer you need and then select the head tube to match. There's no stiffness or strength differences between the two head tubes (but the 44 is for sure heavier) so base it on the fork.

dave

[ERK55]

Im on board with this i was wondering what forks he knew that is made for disc brakes and 11/8 steerers. Very limited selection.

Well, Ritchey is still on board with 1 1/8” disc forks:
—Ritchey WCS Gravel fork.
Axle to crown 380 mm, rake 47
Through axle
Flat mount
—Ritchey WCS Cross fork.
Axle to crown 395mm, rake 45
Through axle or QR
Post mount

[Heisenberg]

https://i.imgur.com/A8r2Re0.jpg?1

:confused:

[ERK55]

Handsome bike.

[Jeff N.]

The 44mm ID HT allows for the use of tapered (1.125" to 1.25"/ 1.50") steerer tubes, as well as allowing for straight 1.125" steerers by using the appropriate headset. It does it all. That said, if you're going with the standard 1.125" straight steerer, with no intention of maybe switching to a tapered fork later, (especially with a steel fork) then the regular inch-and-a-eighth HT is what you want to go with.

[EB]

Tom Ritchey knows what he’s doing, and he offers a straight steerer disc fork which is what is spec’d on Nate’s lovely Scarab above, as well as the upcoming disc Road Logic frame. I really hope they keep making this fork - I think maybe Wound Up does as well?

[Clancy]

Pick the steerer you need and then select the head tube to match. There's no stiffness or strength differences between the two head tubes (but the 44 is for sure heavier) so base it on the fork.

dave

Two identical frames, one built with a 44mm HT, the other 1 1/8.
What would be the actual weight differences?

I know we tend to obsess about weight but without knowing the exact weight difference I would say it’s insignificant. I would also guess, as mentioned, the HT choice would be dictated by the choice of the tubing set and style of fork.

[Hilltopperny]

I like the aesthetics and ride of my1 1/8 head tube steel bike with a steel fork. If I were going way oversized tubing and carbon fork I would go tapered or 44mm. A 1 1/8 head tube can still look fine with some carbon forks as long as the downtube isn’t gigantic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tuscanyswe]

I like the aesthetics and ride of my1 1/8 head tube steel bike with a steel fork. If I were going way oversized tubing and carbon fork I would go tapered or 44mm. A 1 1/8 head tube can still look fine with some carbon forks as long as the downtube isn’t gigantic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cant recall seeing a modern steel bike where i thought oh thats a big downtube but boy that headtube is so small. In theory i would agree but i dont think ive ever come across one. At least not where the tubes are round. Maybe on older steel and alu where they had shaped rectangular-ish downtubes maybe .)

[Hilltopperny]

Cant recall seeing a modern steel bike where i thought oh thats a big downtube but boy that headtube is so small. In theory i would agree but i dont think ive ever come across one. At least not where the tubes are round. Maybe on older steel and alu where they had shaped rectangular-ish downtubes maybe .)



I bought one of the Battaglin Power+ and it came with a 44mm ovalized downtube. They were Spirit HSS iirc and it had a tapered oversized headtube and carbon fork. I think it would have looked kind of silly with a 1 1/8th on that particular bike.

[AngryScientist]

Contemplating the build for the last bike I'll every buy (for myself) It will most likely be a very light steel bike. Columbus Spirit, probably.


Consider tapered.

My Spirit frame is a lightweight rocketship. Bike handles like a dream.

[tuscanyswe]

I bought one of the Battaglin Power+ and it came with a 44mm ovalized downtube. They were Spirit HSS iirc and it had a tapered oversized headtube and carbon fork. I think it would have looked kind of silly with a 1 1/8th on that particular bike.

That is a good example actually. It seems the reversed is more common tho. normal or thin tubes with 44mm headtubes. Not an ideal look for me. To me the visual appeal of a nice steel frame is allrdy something completely different when the tubes are that large. Looks more like alu bikes to me.

[David Kirk]

Two identical frames, one built with a 44mm HT, the other 1 1/8.
What would be the actual weight differences?

I know we tend to obsess about weight but without knowing the exact weight difference I would say it’s insignificant. I would also guess, as mentioned, the HT choice would be dictated by the choice of the tubing set and style of fork.

That's a good question. I can't answer it off the top of my head. I'd walk out into the shop and weigh two pieces of head tube but I don't have any 44mm in stock at the moment.

I know that when picking the two up the 44 is a large percentage heavier....but is the difference significant when considering the overall bike weight? Probably not. It depends on the priorities of the owner I suppose.

The weight difference on the head tubes would not be the big factor to me. This is partly why I say that one should select the fork steerer needed and then pick the head tube to match it.

dave

[unterhausen]

I was down at the bike shop looking at bikes yesterday. Saw an all city cosmic stallion https://allcitycycles.com/bikes and it looked fine. Carbon fork, external headset tapered steerer. Might look a little wonky with an internal headset tapered steerer.

Steel fork, no question, 1 1/8" The bikes I have seen that come with a steel fork but have a 44mm head tube look silly, nobody needs that. 44mm straight steel head tubes are a little heavy, the tapered ones are not.

Someone was threatening to make lugs for tapered headtubes, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Clean39T]

I bought one of the Battaglin Power+ and it came with a 44mm ovalized downtube. They were Spirit HSS iirc and it had a tapered oversized headtube and carbon fork. I think it would have looked kind of silly with a 1 1/8th on that particular bike.Agreed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[kingpin75s]

This is partly why I say that one should select the fork steerer needed and then pick the head tube to match it.

dave

Succinctly stated. ^This.

[fignon's barber]

[QUOTE=XXtwindad;2641613] Contemplating the build for the last bike I'll every buy (for myself) It will most likely be a very light steel bike. Columbus Spirit, probably.
[/QUOTE)

You'll have plenty of stiffness with a 1 1/8 HT for a steel rim braked frame. If I were going for a disc steel bike, I would get a Bertoletti Fedaia with a tapered HT.

[bitpuddle]

That is a good example actually. It seems the reversed is more common tho. normal or thin tubes with 44mm headtubes. Not an ideal look for me. To me the visual appeal of a nice steel frame is allrdy something completely different when the tubes are that large. Looks more like alu bikes to me.

I happen to have a Power+, too, as well as a Cinelli Nemo Tig. Similar tube sets and the larger head tube works aesthetically. The Nemo is a wonderful riding frame with those tubes and a Futura fork.

I will say that I had another Spirit frame with an oversized head tube and it was too stiff. Bad roads could really yank the bars out of my hands.

I lust after those Scarabs and the new Ritchey Road Logic Disc. I love the look of the tubing and the graceful fork.

[grateful]

I would leave it to the builder, other tubing diameter needs may dictate their head tube recommendation.

[CAAD]

I ended up going with a 44mm ht on my latest build. Rob custom machined the ht so weight/size isn't as bad as those Paragon headtubes. Paired with a 44mm dt, Max stays, tapered Columbus fork, t47bb. The 44mm dt pairs well with the larger ht. This is a replacement for my supersix Evo hm. I was going for all out stiffness. Smaller tubes don't take up as much real estate on the ht, really no reason to go oversized.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u2sTAzHCzDk/XbBfrixJvMI/AAAAAAAA9Qc/1s6XWW5SA6EKFmBhb-UIgqSd3YCVycgHgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/nf1.jpg

[tuscanyswe]

I ended up going with a 44mm ht on my latest build. Rob custom machined the ht so weight/size isn't as bad as those Paragon headtubes. Paired with a 44mm dt, Max stays, tapered Columbus fork, t47bb. The 44mm dt pairs well with the larger ht. This is a replacement for my supersix Evo hm. I was going for all out stiffness. Smaller tubes don't take up as much real estate on the ht, really no reason to go oversized.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u2sTAzHCzDk/XbBfrixJvMI/AAAAAAAA9Qc/1s6XWW5SA6EKFmBhb-UIgqSd3YCVycgHgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/nf1.jpg

Those chainstays looks massive too! Looks fun, Id love to try one of those english out someday.

[XXtwindad]

I ended up going with a 44mm ht on my latest build. Rob custom machined the ht so weight/size isn't as bad as those Paragon headtubes. Paired with a 44mm dt, Max stays, tapered Columbus fork, t47bb. The 44mm dt pairs well with the larger ht. This is a replacement for my supersix Evo hm. I was going for all out stiffness. Smaller tubes don't take up as much real estate on the ht, really no reason to go oversized.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u2sTAzHCzDk/XbBfrixJvMI/AAAAAAAA9Qc/1s6XWW5SA6EKFmBhb-UIgqSd3YCVycgHgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/nf1.jpg

I really like the aesthetics of the chunkier tubing. Looks like the frame means business.

[fignon's barber]

Two identical frames, one built with a 44mm HT, the other 1 1/8.
What would be the actual weight differences?



I've been looking at possibly having a Ti frame built. When you consider F/F/HS, the difference between 1 1/8 and a tapered HT is 200g or so.

[Black Dog]

I've been looking at possibly having a Ti frame built. When you consider F/F/HS, the difference between 1 1/8 and a tapered HT is 200g or so.

Not really anything important when you add the mass of the rider into the equation. Hell, even on a 20km mountain climb at full throttle it will only add up less than a minute. 200g is noise and that is noise that you can only hear in a race on some hilly terrain.

[tuscanyswe]

Not really anything important when you add the mass of the rider into the equation. Hell, even on a 20km mountain climb at full throttle it will only add up less than a minute. 200g is noise and that is noise that you can only hear in a race on some hilly terrain.

200g is quite a alot imo. Im suprised its that much tbh. Depending on what kind of build you are doing ofc. But on a new titanium frame with high end components, its not easy nor cheap to find 200 gram weight savings elsewhere.

[jtbadge]

It's definitely not nothing.

200g is half a pound, and the weight difference between headtube diameters in steel is probably even greater.