OT Red Sox - say it ain't so Alex

[wc1934]

Yikes!!! 2nd thread - same topic.
My home teams are taking a beating.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2020/01/08/alex-cora-problems-suddenly-are-multiplying/Ilq6s0Bz6mBao58VbNYBpI/story.html

[veloduffer]

Coupled with the Patriots Deflate-Gate and video spying, Boston championships are looking like the equivalent of Lance’s TdF wins.


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[kohagen]

Coupled with the Patriots Deflate-Gate and video spying, Boston championships are looking like the equivalent of Lance’s TdF wins.


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Ouch! That stings!

[MattTuck]

Indeed, "[Insert Boston Sports Figure] ran the most sophisticated [Insert alleged misdeed] programme ever"

[SpaceOdyssey]

Connect the dots

Houston followed by Red Sox = Alex Cora

[saab2000]

When people start getting year-long bans, or longer, it’ll change.

[madsciencenow]

Connect the dots



Houston followed by Red Sox = Alex Cora



Hate to admit it but I think you are right.

This said, I wonder if everyone isn’t doing this and these two teams are the easiest targets? The reason I say this is that when you look into how they were doing this it seems so easy that you’d have to try not to do this (corporate world calls this a firewall). In addition, the last year or two has seen an increase in hitting numbers. People have speculated that MLB is juicing the ball but how exactly would they do this? I mean how’s a pitcher not going to notice? MLB has admitted they changed the stitching which resulted in a decrease in seam size but I don’t believe this alone explains better hitting numbers.

A couple other thoughts. Does this impact what a team might be willing to offer for Betts? He’s a great fielder but most teams are likely interested in his bat. If his numbers are partially a result of cheating then what will his productivity look like going forward? This said, he was good before Cora arrived but I still wonder.

One other thing I wondered about is if teams are routinely stealing signs, doesn’t this favor pitchers who work rapidly on the mound or are hitters able to get the signal regardless of how fast a pitcher tries to work?


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[72gmc]

I'd guess people have been doing this since signs were invented.

And while I tend to agree with you, Saab, I'm not sure one- or two-year bans are going to change things that much. MLB let the Barry Bonds fiasco go on until they'd made a pile of money off of him, these investigations are happening after lucrative World Series runs ... maybe I have leftover cynicism from the Bud Selig years but I feel the Lance comparison is apt: get away with it until the business is satisfied, then become an example.

[MattTuck]

It is probably blasphemy, but why not give the pitcher and catcher a little ear piece like the QB gets in football.

Have the pitches come in from the coach, and allow the pitcher or catcher to shake them off. Combine this with a faster pitch clock, and maybe the game would speed up a bit.

[saab2000]

I'd guess people have been doing this since signs were invented.

And while I tend to agree with you, Saab, I'm not sure one- or two-year bans are going to change things that much. MLB let the Barry Bonds fiasco go on until they'd made a pile of money off of him, these investigations are happening after lucrative World Series runs ... maybe I have leftover cynicism from the Bud Selig years but I feel the Lance comparison is apt: get away with it until the business is satisfied, then become an example.

Nobody minds stealing signs by looking at them from, say, 2nd base. I think the big deal is using illegal (electronic) means.

They made/make a lot of money off home runs. But sign stealing is, to me, different because that's not something that will put butts in seats or raise TV ratings. Home runs will do that.

We'll see what happens. I'm not a giant baseball fan, but I follow it and enjoyed this year's World Series with the Nationals winning. I've begun to follow them over the past decade or so as I spent a bunch of time in the DC area and have been to a few games.

[VTCaraco]

It is probably blasphemy, but why not give the pitcher and catcher a little ear piece like the QB gets in football.

That's one of the proposed adaptations, but pitchers found the earbud to be distracting. I've read a few recent pieces about exploring a solution for this, but it will be interesting to see how the game changes...

The other related evolution being discussed is electronic ball/strike calls. My son shared a stat with me yesterday that over 34,000 ball/strike calls were erroneous in 2018 (https://www.instagram.com/p/B7AIRSqAt9-/?igshid=yt4g4kxutij9). By my calculation, that's just under 5% error or about 15 missed ball/strikes per game.

[72gmc]

Nobody minds stealing signs by looking at them from, say, 2nd base. I think the big deal is using illegal (electronic) means.

I get what you're saying, but electronics are just an available tool, like a military scope in the 50's. The illegal part is what's been going on forever.

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

[EDS]

When people start getting year-long bans, or longer, it’ll change.

If I were MLB I would fine owners and have the team forfeit draft picks - Hitting ownership's wallet in the short term (the fine) and long term (lack of draft capital can result in a lack of young, cheap talent going forward).

[madsciencenow]

The other related evolution being discussed is electronic ball/strike calls. My son shared a stat with me yesterday that over 34,000 ball/strike calls were erroneous in 2018 (https://www.instagram.com/p/B7AIRSqAt9-/?igshid=yt4g4kxutij9). By my calculation, that's just under 5% error or about 15 missed ball/strikes per game.


I totally hate the idea of robo umpire. I know it’s coming but to me the way the zone has always been a bit dynamic, depending on the umpire, has been part of the fun of watching baseball. It encourages controversy, posturing, and is a dance between at minimum the pitcher, catcher, hitter and umpire.




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[hellvetica]

As a Dodgers fan, this really connects a lot of dots.

:)

[72gmc]

(lack of draft capital can result in a lack of young, cheap talent going forward).

some baseball teams may not be afraid of having no future (I live in Seattle)

[veloduffer]

some baseball teams may not be afraid of having no future (I live in Seattle)


That was funny, but sadly true (add the Orioles).



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[veloduffer]

I totally hate the idea of robo umpire. I know it’s coming but to me the way the zone has always been a bit dynamic, depending on the umpire, has been part of the fun of watching baseball. It encourages controversy, posturing, and is a dance between at minimum the pitcher, catcher, hitter and umpire.

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I would miss that fun too. It was highly entertaining to watch Earl Weaver and Billy Martin yelling so vociferously that spittle was coming out while nose to nose with the ump, and the beautifully childish antic of kicking dirt on the umpire. And I believe it was Weaver who invented turning his cap backwards so he could get closer yell in the ump’s face.





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[madsciencenow]

That was funny, but sadly true (add the Orioles).



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I kinda thought Seattle was at least pretending whereas the O’s just resigned themselves to sucking. Could be that as a BoSox fan I’m more tuned in to the AL East too. Regardless, the business of the game is becoming ever more apparent.


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[trener1]

There was a piece about it today on the radio, from what I understand it is NOT illegal for the runner on 2nd base to steal signs and pass it along to the hitter, and not MLB or any of the teams have any issues with that, it however illegal to use electronic devices and runners coming from the clubhouse etc...

Full story here
https://theathletic.com/1510673/2020/01/07/mlbs-sign-stealing-controversy-broadens-sources-say-the-red-sox-used-video-replay-room-illegally-in-2018/

I get what you're saying, but electronics are just an available tool, like a military scope in the 50's. The illegal part is what's been going on forever.

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

[wc1934]

Astros fire GM and manager
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/us/houston-astros-mlb-sign-stealing-allegations-investigation/index.html

Have to think Alex Cora's fate will be the same - so who will the be the new Sox manager?

[donevwil]

Astros fire GM and manager
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/us/houston-astros-mlb-sign-stealing-allegations-investigation/index.html

Have to think Alex Cora's fate will be the same - so who will the be the new Sox manager?

How about Bruce Bochy, at least for a couple years and another World Series.

[madsciencenow]

How about Bruce Bochy, at least for a couple years and another World Series.

Bruce would be a great choice, assuming he's interested.

[GonaSovereign]

Maybe the Astros should truck it over to LA and hand the Dodgers the 2017 MLB hardware.

I'm sure that would be as fulfilling (or unfulfilling) as Frischknecht getting Chiotti's rainbow stripes.

[Mr. Pink]

I kinda thought Seattle was at least pretending whereas the O’s just resigned themselves to sucking. Could be that as a BoSox fan I’m more tuned in to the AL East too. Regardless, the business of the game is becoming ever more apparent.


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The Os will never be winners under current ownership. They refuse to play in the expensive free agent game. Which is good for me, because I'm a Yankees fan, and spend a lot of time in Baltimore, so I can walk up to the window and buy a good seat face value at Camden, a really nice ballpark. I swear there are more Yankee and Sox fans in the seats when they visit.

Speaking of managers, I'd like to see Buck Showalter get a job with a good team again. He did wonders with what was an awful Oriole team when they hired him for his last job, but, alas, he needed some support from the top at trade and free agent time, and never got it.

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe the Astros should truck it over to LA and hand the Dodgers the 2017 MLB hardware.

I'm sure that would be as fulfilling (or unfulfilling) as Frischknecht getting Chiotti's rainbow stripes.

The Astros didn't win the whole shee-bang because of some cheaters wrt stealing signs...

[FlashUNC]

The Astros didn't win the whole shee-bang because of some cheaters wrt stealing signs...

Are we sure about that? They absolutely pounded three of the best pitchers on the planet who were on fire that postseason.

Knowing what's coming certainly had to help.

[bikinchris]

It is probably blasphemy, but why not give the pitcher and catcher a little ear piece like the QB gets in football.

Have the pitches come in from the coach, and allow the pitcher or catcher to shake them off. Combine this with a faster pitch clock, and maybe the game would speed up a bit.

To purists, it is blasphemy. Many don't want anything that wasn't happening in 1898.

[ScottW]

The Astros didn't win the whole shee-bang because of some cheaters wrt stealing signs...
Here are some home vs. away splits for Astros hitters during the 2017 playoffs (not just WS). These are incredibly disparate numbers as baseball stats go. If these guys were cyclists, they'd be the guys who ride at 2 w/kg in real life but somehow manage 4-5 w/kg in Zwift. :banana:

Altuve (bats R):
Home: .472 BA, .513 OBP, 1.028 SLG, 1.541 OPS, 17 H, 6 HR & 12 RBI
Away: .143 BA, .268 OBP, .229 SLG, .497 OPS, 5 H, 1 HR & 2 RBI

Correa (bats R):
Home: .371 BA, .421 OBP, .743 SLG, 1.164 OPS, 13 H, 3 HR & 10 RBI
Away: .211 BA, .231 OBP, .395 SLG, .626 OPS, 8 H, 2 HR & 4 RBI

Bregman (bats R):
Home: .273 BA, .342 OBP, .515 SLG, .857 OPS, 9 H, 2 HR & 6 RBI
Away: .154 BA, .175 OBP, .333 SLG, .508 OPS, 6 H, 2 HR & 4 RBI

Gattis (bats R):
Home: .300 BA, .464 OBP, .550 SLG, 1.014 OPS, 6 H, 1 HR & 3 RBI
Away: .200 BA, .333 OBP, .200 SLG, .533 OPS, 2 H, 0 HR & 0 RBI

McCann (bats L):
Home: .300 BA, .382 OBP, .467 SLG, .849 OPS, 9 H, 1 HR & 7 RBI
Away: .037 BA, .161 OBP, .037 SLG, .198 OPS, 1 H, 0 HR & 0 RBI

Because the Astros ballpark is smaller than most (especially to the left field fence) it could reasonably be expected that batters would hit more homers, and therefore have more RBI and higher slugging and OPS at home vs away. Homers also affect, but to a lesser degree, their batting average and OBP (which includes walks), and it's these numbers that remain glaring despite any differences in outfield fence distance between ballparks. These guys hit better and walked more because they knew what was coming (via center field cameras and/or using replay systems to decode signs and relay them to batters in real time) so they could gear up for fastballs and spit on the breaking stuff.

There are also some batters whose splits were even and not the least bit suspicious (Gurriel). The obvious [potential] explanation being that he was less dependent, or not at all dependent, on illegal sign stealing methods in order to hit decently.

Gurriel (bats R):
Home: .303 BA, .361 OBP, .576 SLG, .937 OPS, 10 H, 2 HR & 5 RBI
Away: .306 BA, .324 OBP, .472 SLG, .797 OPS, 11 H, 0 HR & 3 RBI

Maybe the Astros should truck it over to LA and hand the Dodgers the 2017 MLB hardware.
Lance doped to the gills during training and the TdF, eventually stripped of titles. His are left vacant, though subsequent TdF wins have been retroactively awarded to runners-up due to doping.
USC 2004 football national championship vacated because they had a player on their roster (Reggie Bush) who got a few dollars from unapproved sources that season. Not doping or cheating to gain any competitive advantage. Title stripped and left vacant.
Louisville 2013 hoops title stripped due to unscrupulous off-the-court behavior, not doping or cheating or any competitive advantage gained, title left vacant.
Over a dozen other NCAA division 1, 2, 3 titles stripped over the years and left vacant. A few for illegal substances conferring competitive advantage, but most for monetary infractions.

MLB found evidence the Astros cheated during the 2017 playoffs. Title should be stripped and left vacant as is the norm with team sports.
Won't happen though. On MLB's own MLB Network last night, the commentators were all toeing the company line of "this was an unprecedentedly harsh punishment" and similar malarkey. The players have not been punished one iota. All position players (those in the dugout) knew about it in detail and many actively utilized it. They should be suspended for 20 or so games this season so there's at least some monetary penalty for them. Their pitchers certainly knew about it (the guy who ratted was a pitcher) but would not have been involved in the implementation and may not (?) have been in a position to stop it if they were in the bullpen most of the time, so maybe I'd give them a pass on the suspensions. The entire team should be made to forfeit their WS championship rings. Of course, this is all in Fantasy Land where the commissioner has a spine.

[FlashUNC]

MLB found evidence the Astros cheated during the 2017 playoffs. Title should be stripped and left vacant as is the norm with team sports.
Won't happen though. On MLB's own MLB Network last night, the commentators were all toeing the company line of "this was an unprecedentedly harsh punishment" and similar malarkey. The players have not been punished one iota. All position players (those in the dugout) knew about it in detail and many actively utilized it. They should be suspended for 20 or so games this season so there's at least some monetary penalty for them. Their pitchers certainly knew about it (the guy who ratted was a pitcher) but would not have been involved in the implementation and may not (?) have been in a position to stop it if they were in the bullpen most of the time, so maybe I'd give them a pass on the suspensions. The entire team should be made to forfeit their WS championship rings. Of course, this is all in Fantasy Land where the commissioner has a spine.

The commissioner works at the pleasure of the owners. Spine's got nothing to do with it.

And the commissioner made a call to give the players immunity for their testimony, rather than punishments languish in artibitration purgatory for a long time with the union who (rightly) would defend against suspensions for the players.

Crane and Manfred got their scapegoats in the Astros GM and a couple managers.

[veloduffer]

I like the idea of stripping the title and leaving it vacant. MLB should also take away all the World Series rings and bonuses from players and management. Someone want to post that to social media (I don’t have an account.)?


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[unterhausen]

stripping titles has been suggested on social media

[cgolvin]

If I were MLB I would fine owners and have the team forfeit draft picks - Hitting ownership's wallet in the short term (the fine) and long term (lack of draft capital can result in a lack of young, cheap talent going forward).

Well this was a prescient comment, did MLB consult you? ;-)

Realistically, the fine is minimal ($5M, maximum allowed), especially in light of the 2018 profit increase attributed to the 2017 championship, which I recall reading was in the $65M range.

In addition, because the Astros will remain a good team they will draft at the back end in the affected years so the lost draft picks are of much lower value.

As a Dodger fan it provides little solace. Maybe the city should put on championship parades, with Dave Roberts riding in a clown car down Figueroa with a papier mache trophy. I especially feel for Kershaw (though he has plenty of other postseason mishaps that one can't attribute to cheating…for now).

[ScottW]

The commissioner works at the pleasure of the owners. Spine's got nothing to do with it.
The commish theoretically works for all owners, not just Crane but also for the owners of the teams who got cheated. He is also charged with maintaining the integrity of the game and with player discipline.

And the commissioner made a call to give the players immunity for their testimony, rather than punishments languish in artibitration purgatory for a long time with the union who (rightly) would defend against suspensions for the players.
This was clearly the more expedient route.

Crane and Manfred got their scapegoats in the Astros GM and a couple managers.
Scapegoat is the perfect term for it. This was initiated and pushed by the players, who get off scot free.

Other owners and GMs around the league are suspiciously silent today. It's as if there's an internal gag order (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/01/nl-notes-dodgers-cards-arenado-beltran.html) in place to prevent further disruption to the business and to bleach the obvious stain left on the 2017 WS.

[XXtwindad]

Here are some home vs. away splits for Astros hitters during the 2017 playoffs (not just WS). These are incredibly disparate numbers as baseball stats go. If these guys were cyclists, they'd be the guys who ride at 2 w/kg in real life but somehow manage 4-5 w/kg in Zwift. :banana:

Altuve (bats R):
Home: .472 BA, .513 OBP, 1.028 SLG, 1.541 OPS, 17 H, 6 HR & 12 RBI
Away: .143 BA, .268 OBP, .229 SLG, .497 OPS, 5 H, 1 HR & 2 RBI

Correa (bats R):
Home: .371 BA, .421 OBP, .743 SLG, 1.164 OPS, 13 H, 3 HR & 10 RBI
Away: .211 BA, .231 OBP, .395 SLG, .626 OPS, 8 H, 2 HR & 4 RBI

Bregman (bats R):
Home: .273 BA, .342 OBP, .515 SLG, .857 OPS, 9 H, 2 HR & 6 RBI
Away: .154 BA, .175 OBP, .333 SLG, .508 OPS, 6 H, 2 HR & 4 RBI

Gattis (bats R):
Home: .300 BA, .464 OBP, .550 SLG, 1.014 OPS, 6 H, 1 HR & 3 RBI
Away: .200 BA, .333 OBP, .200 SLG, .533 OPS, 2 H, 0 HR & 0 RBI

McCann (bats L):
Home: .300 BA, .382 OBP, .467 SLG, .849 OPS, 9 H, 1 HR & 7 RBI
Away: .037 BA, .161 OBP, .037 SLG, .198 OPS, 1 H, 0 HR & 0 RBI

Because the Astros ballpark is smaller than most (especially to the left field fence) it could reasonably be expected that batters would hit more homers, and therefore have more RBI and higher slugging and OPS at home vs away. Homers also affect, but to a lesser degree, their batting average and OBP (which includes walks), and it's these numbers that remain glaring despite any differences in outfield fence distance between ballparks. These guys hit better and walked more because they knew what was coming (via center field cameras and/or using replay systems to decode signs and relay them to batters in real time) so they could gear up for fastballs and spit on the breaking stuff.

There are also some batters whose splits were even and not the least bit suspicious (Gurriel). The obvious [potential] explanation being that he was less dependent, or not at all dependent, on illegal sign stealing methods in order to hit decently.

Gurriel (bats R):
Home: .303 BA, .361 OBP, .576 SLG, .937 OPS, 10 H, 2 HR & 5 RBI
Away: .306 BA, .324 OBP, .472 SLG, .797 OPS, 11 H, 0 HR & 3 RBI


Lance doped to the gills during training and the TdF, eventually stripped of titles. His are left vacant, though subsequent TdF wins have been retroactively awarded to runners-up due to doping.
USC 2004 football national championship vacated because they had a player on their roster (Reggie Bush) who got a few dollars from unapproved sources that season. Not doping or cheating to gain any competitive advantage. Title stripped and left vacant.
Louisville 2013 hoops title stripped due to unscrupulous off-the-court behavior, not doping or cheating or any competitive advantage gained, title left vacant.
Over a dozen other NCAA division 1, 2, 3 titles stripped over the years and left vacant. A few for illegal substances conferring competitive advantage, but most for monetary infractions.

MLB found evidence the Astros cheated during the 2017 playoffs. Title should be stripped and left vacant as is the norm with team sports.
Won't happen though. On MLB's own MLB Network last night, the commentators were all toeing the company line of "this was an unprecedentedly harsh punishment" and similar malarkey. The players have not been punished one iota. All position players (those in the dugout) knew about it in detail and many actively utilized it. They should be suspended for 20 or so games this season so there's at least some monetary penalty for them. Their pitchers certainly knew about it (the guy who ratted was a pitcher) but would not have been involved in the implementation and may not (?) have been in a position to stop it if they were in the bullpen most of the time, so maybe I'd give them a pass on the suspensions. The entire team should be made to forfeit their WS championship rings. Of course, this is all in Fantasy Land where the commissioner has a spine.

Wow. That's fascinating. I had no idea the disparity was that big. Thanks for sharing.

[XXtwindad]

Charley Hustle weighs in ...

https://www.nj.com/yankees/2020/01/pete-rose-feels-astros-cheating-worse-than-gambling-questions-players-getting-off-scot-free.html?outputType=amp

[PacNW2Ford]

Don’t forget that Gurriel’s suspension for mocking Asians was deferred because it was “unfair” to punish all of the Asstros for his actions. Oops.

[trener1]

McCan's numbers disparity is WOW!.

[wc1934]

Going, going, gone!

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/01/15/metro/read-statements-red-sox-alex-cora/

[EDS]

Well this was a prescient comment, did MLB consult you? ;-)

Realistically, the fine is minimal ($5M, maximum allowed), especially in light of the 2018 profit increase attributed to the 2017 championship, which I recall reading was in the $65M range.

In addition, because the Astros will remain a good team they will draft at the back end in the affected years so the lost draft picks are of much lower value.

As a Dodger fan it provides little solace. Maybe the city should put on championship parades, with Dave Roberts riding in a clown car down Figueroa with a papier mache trophy. I especially feel for Kershaw (though he has plenty of other postseason mishaps that one can't attribute to cheating…for now).

Ha! They did not, but for sure my post is where they got the idea! :)

That said, I did not know about the fine limitation. It is such small dollars for an owner that I do not think it is a sufficient penalty.

[trener1]

Yeah $5 million for a MLB team is a joke.
Considering that the value of some of these teams is in the billions.

[XXtwindad]

Now comes more allegations of Tony LaRussa cheating. Is nothing sacred?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/former-mlb-pitcher-jack-mcdowell-alleges-80s-white-sox-tony-la-russa-cheated-with-camera/ar-BBZ3W51?ocid=spartanntp

[trener1]

He managed Cansaco and McGuire.
Enough said.

[MattTuck]

well, the Red Sox have traded away Mookie Betts (assuming it goes through), ushering in another 86 year drought in Boston championships.

It was a good run for a few years there.

[XXtwindad]

well, the Red Sox have traded away Mookie Betts (assuming it goes through), ushering in another 86 year drought in Boston championships.

It was a good run for a few years there.

Great article on Betts here: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/gabe-lacques/2020/02/05/mookie-betts-glorious-run-unsatisfying-end-boston-red-sox/4665222002/

And now, Boston can get back to a more prototypical leadoff man. Paging Wade Boggs Jr.

[wc1934]

well, the Red Sox have traded away Mookie Betts (assuming it goes through), ushering in another 86 year drought in Boston championships.

It was a good run for a few years there.

hope it doesnt - some hold up regarding Graterol's physical.

On a different note - Pete Rose is still crying and crawling to get reinstated.

[72gmc]

Re Pete Rose: he's got a point. Baseball is trying to differentiate between a guy who made bets that included his own team vs. a bunch of guys who employed mechanical aids to cheat against the other team vs. whatever comes next ... it will take a very crooked blade to slice between those transgressions if they decide not to send everyone into exile.

[FlashUNC]

Re Pete Rose: he's got a point. Baseball is trying to differentiate between a guy who made bets that included his own team vs. a bunch of guys who employed mechanical aids to cheat against the other team vs. whatever comes next ... it will take a very crooked blade to slice between those transgressions if they decide not to send everyone into exile.

For all its faults, baseball's been exceedingly clear about what gambling and consorting with gamblers means for anyone involved with the on-field product.

Sorry Pete.

[cgolvin]

well, the Red Sox have traded away Mookie Betts (assuming it goes through), ushering in another 86 year drought in Boston championships.

It was a good run for a few years there.

I'm not implying he will be on par with Betts (few are), but I think you will enjoy watching Verdugo play. Check out some defensive highlights from last year -- his arm is elite (some teams wanted to sign him as a pitcher).

That is, unless you Boston fans eat him alive.

[oldpotatoe]

For all its faults, baseball's been exceedingly clear about what gambling and consorting with gamblers means for anyone involved with the on-field product.

Sorry Pete.

Agree, the 'BlackSox' scandal set the stage. Without that, Pete may have seen a shorter banishment but...Also if he had NOT bet on games involving the Reds...

[veloduffer]

Agree, the 'BlackSox' scandal set the stage. Without that, Pete may have seen a shorter banishment but...Also if he had NOT bet on games involving the Reds...

It would have helped if Pete didn't deny it for years and showed the tiniest bit of contrition. Personality-wise, he seemed more "Lance"-like, which doesn't lend itself to sympathy.

Interestingly, I think Clemens and Bonds might be voted in the HoF one day. As the pool of voters gets younger, the steroid era is being viewed less harshly.

[XXtwindad]

It would have helped if Pete didn't deny it for years and showed the tiniest bit of contrition. Personality-wise, he seemed more "Lance"-like, which doesn't lend itself to sympathy.

Interestingly, I think Clemens and Bonds might be voted in the HoF one day. As the pool of voters gets younger, the steroid era is being viewed less harshly.

You think these two guys aren't in the Hall just due to steroids? Noted pricks. Having said that, they were both HOFers before flaxseed oil, etc.. They should be in.

[wc1934]

You think these two guys aren't in the Hall just due to steroids? Noted pricks. Having said that, they were both HOFers before flaxseed oil, etc.. They should be in.

No to Rose, Bonds and Clemens. If you let them where does it end - Sousa, McGuire, Palmeiro etc. etc.

[oldpotatoe]

You think these two guys aren't in the Hall just due to steroids? Noted pricks. Having said that, they were both HOFers before flaxseed oil, etc.. They should be in.

Pricks that doped..along with McGuire, Sosa and others..disagree, they are cheaters on the same scale as Rose..HOW could they be in the HOF as demonstrated cheaters? Scumbags..big thumb's down.

[XXtwindad]

No to Rose, Bonds and Clemens. If you let them where does it end - Sousa, McGuire, Palmeiro etc. etc.

No comparison between the first three players and the last three. Steroids "made" Sosa, McGuire, and (possibly) Palmeiro. Not so with Bonds and Clemens.

[oldpotatoe]

No comparison between the first three players and the last three. Steroids "made" Sosa, McGuire, and (possibly) Palmeiro. Not so with Bonds and Clemens.

YGBSM..Bond? Take a look at him from pre to post steroids...he looked like the incredible hulk...Sosa, McGuire the same..

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=rry+bonds+pre+to+post+steroids#id=2&vid=40e181a55feeb645a43bf9802fe9c5f5&action=click

[XXtwindad]

YGBSM..Bond? Take a look at him from pre to post steroids...he looked like the incredible hulk...Sosa, McGuire the same..

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=rry+bonds+pre+to+post+steroids#id=2&vid=40e181a55feeb645a43bf9802fe9c5f5&action=click

Yes. This is true. But before Bonds became the most feared hitter in history, he was perhaps the best "five-tool" player in history. Check the stats. Gold gloves, home runs, and stolen bases. A sure fire HOFer.

Them he started on his flaxseed regimen. And it was homer, walk, homer, strikeout, walk, walk, homer. Really tough to chase down fly balls or zip around the bases with "man boobs."

[XXtwindad]

YGBSM..Bond? Take a look at him from pre to post steroids...he looked like the incredible hulk...Sosa, McGuire the same..

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=rry+bonds+pre+to+post+steroids#id=2&vid=40e181a55feeb645a43bf9802fe9c5f5&action=click

Also, should we throw away the stats for all the Houston Astros and possibly the Red Sox of the past few years? Do Mookie Betts and Joey Altuve not get into the HOF? Surely, if they continue their trajectory they are locks for the Hall.

[FlashUNC]

YGBSM..Bond? Take a look at him from pre to post steroids...he looked like the incredible hulk...Sosa, McGuire the same..

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=rry+bonds+pre+to+post+steroids#id=2&vid=40e181a55feeb645a43bf9802fe9c5f5&action=click

And pre-steroids Barry Bonds was still the best position player and hitter in the game.

His pre-1998 stats, when he says he started hitting the juice, were still good enough for the 10th best OPS of all time. So if you strip out his greatest years during the height of the steroid era, he was still one of the 10 best offensive players ever.

There's a reason the Giants gave him pretty much all the money to leave Pittsburgh.

[Rada]

And pre-steroids Barry Bonds was still the best position player and hitter in the game.

His pre-1998 stats, when he says he started hitting the juice, were still good enough for the 10th best OPS of all time. So if you strip out his greatest years during the height of the steroid era, he was still one of the 10 best offensive players ever.

There's a reason the Giants gave him pretty much all the money to leave Pittsburgh.

Using that logic Pete should be in. Pete never cheated on the field, as Bonds did, but as a manager. On the field Pete had more hits that anyone in MLB history. Personally I don't think any of those guys should ever get in, including Pete, and I am a life long Reds fan who saw Pete play at Crosley Field.

[FlashUNC]

Using that logic Pete should be in. Pete never cheated on the field, as Bonds did, but as a manager. On the field Pete had more hits that anyone in MLB history. Personally I don't think any of those guys should ever get in, including Pete, and I am a life long Reds fan who saw Pete play at Crosley Field.

He broke the one cardinal rule baseball has had for decades: Don't bet on the game.

[Rada]

He broke the one cardinal rule baseball has had for decades: Don't bet on the game.

I get that and why I said he should never get in. Bonds and the rest cheated for years on the field in an era that was corrupt from the top down and why I don't think they should ever get into the HOF. Now with these new scandals and the slap on the wrist punishments handed down the integrity of the game itself is completely dead, at least to me. I don't think I will ever watch a game again.

[FlashUNC]

I get that and why I said he should never get in. Bonds and the rest cheated for years on the field in an era that was corrupt from the top down and why I don't think they should ever get into the HOF. Now with these new scandals and the slap on the wrist punishments handed down the integrity of the game itself is completely dead, at least to me. I don't think I will ever watch a game again.

Eh, with Bonds and Clemens, they made sure fire Hall of Famers all the more Hall of Famer-y.

The line gets blurrier with guys like McGwire and Sosa and Palmeiro and the like. I don't think they compile the stats needed to get there without the help.

I get that's where things get sticky, but Bonds and Clemens? Totes should be in.

[Rada]

Eh, with Bonds and Clemens, they made sure fire Hall of Famers all the more Hall of Famer-y.

The line gets blurrier with guys like McGwire and Sosa and Palmeiro and the like. I don't think they compile the stats needed to get there without the help.

I get that's where things get sticky, but Bonds and Clemens? Totes should be in.

I get that is the line many people take, erase the juiced seasons and they still put up the numbers. To me the bottom line is they cheated. Multiple seasons. Period.

[fiamme red]

It was all the fault of the video replay guy! :rolleyes:

https://nypost.com/2020/04/22/red-sox-sign-stealing-punishment-is-nothing-compared-to-astros/

[soulspinner]

when people start getting year-long bans, or longer, it’ll change.

this

[wc1934]

It was all the fault of the video replay guy! :rolleyes:

https://nypost.com/2020/04/22/red-sox-sign-stealing-punishment-is-nothing-compared-to-astros/

Cora was exonerated regarding the Sox, but not so re: Houston. Thus, we wont ever again see him in a Sox uniform.

[T-Crush]

As far as the Astros and the 2017 WS, here is an interesting observation -

From an article about Clayton Kershaw in Axios Sports –

Perhaps no team has lost as much (from the Astros cheating scandal) as the Dodgers, and perhaps no Dodger was damaged as much as Kershaw. He is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, a three-time Cy Young Award winner, a once-in-a-generation talent, and he will also be remembered for bad luck and bad outings in the playoffs. The biggest of those failures -- there's a compilation video online that has about 100,000 views -- was against the Astros in Game 5 of the 2017 World Series. Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci found a single statistic that tells the story of that game better than any commissioner's investigation. Clayton Kershaw is known for his devastating curveball, and an equally weaponized slider, and he threw 51 breaking pitches to the Astros that night and they swung and missed at exactly zero.

Picking signs the old fashioned way is a tradition in baseball, and if you get caught, you get a 90+ mph heater in the ribs. Also a tradition. Using the replay camera/monitor is out of bounds. Vacate the title, and take the overs on how many Astros get plunked (assuming we ever get back to baseball).