Campagnolo Gotta Wake Up!

[NoMoreParagon]

With gravel race circuit pretty much as popular as ever, and pros even abandoning the pro peloton tour in order to race gravel I simply cannot understand why Campagnolo remains so behind.
I get it they all race oriented, but guess what? The most captivating races happens to be gravel races these days. Pros DO race gravel and with many bikes Campy is simply not an option due to their limiting gear range and the lack of a 1x or clutch RD.

I was a big die hard Campagnolo, spending extra to equip my frames with Campy but, as it is now, there is simply no product matching my requirement.

It would be so damn easy to introduce a rear derailleur with some clutch mechanism and those guys never listen to what the average use needs/wants.

And, by the way, Movistar just dropped Campy in favor of Sram...


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[tuscanyswe]

I think 1x is overrated. That said i think campy should cast a wider net so i agree.

[colker]

Campagnolo is an european brand. Is gravel that popular in Europe? Is cycling as popular in the US as in Europe? Sincere questions.

[eBAUMANN]

I think 1x is overrated.

Agreed, it has jumped the shark (thanks to the industry). But it existed for a LONG time in CX before SRAM decided to mainstream it...so I'd argue it was UNDER-RATED far longer.

1x on "road racing bicycles" is stupid. Maybe for crit racing where you are in your big ring all day anyways it works but otherwise it's dumb.

For gravel/mtb I appreciate the reduced complexity of 1x and will likely never go back.

Definitely agree campy is far behind the curve for some unexplainable reason...

[b33]

Let's translate but using the same logic

Porsche is so behind. The future is electronic and Tesla has the inroad here. I get tit, Porsche is a driver's car, but I want electric so I am have no choice in Porsche.

:fight:

[saab2000]

I find their 12-speed road stuff intriguing.

Don’t they now make a gravel-ratio crankset? 48/32? Wide cassettes and hydraulic brakes that are highly rated?

What more do folks want from a gravel setup?

Personally I have zero interest in a 1x system anyway.

I have enough bikes and am halfway tempted by some of Campagnolo’s offerings to get back with their brand.

[eBAUMANN]

What more do folks want from a gravel setup?


Dirt roads and trails are bumpy...chains don't do well with constant bumps/vibration. Shifting and chain retention are adversely effective by a chain that is flapping all over the place, not to mention the constant noise of the thing hitting your chainstay. 1x systems eliminate that via a clutch RD which maintains chain tension over rough stuff.

Sometimes things break. Pavement usually means civilization and civilization means easy assistance from other human beings. Gravel/dirt means exactly the opposite. By removing a possible point of failure (the FD) a 1x drivetrain becomes just a little more "bulletproof" and field-serviceable should the sh*t hit the fan in the middle of nowhere.

[fignon's barber]

Chorus is now positioned as the Campagnolo gravel group.

[RoadWhale]

Let's translate but using the same logic

Porsche is so behind. The future is electronic and Tesla has the inroad here. I get tit, Porsche is a driver's car, but I want electric so I am have no choice in Porsche.

:fight:


On sale starting December 2019. Tesla was one of the leaders for sure but Porsche gives you a choice, for a price.

[saab2000]

Dirt roads and trails are bumpy...chains don't do well with constant bumps/vibration. Shifting and chain retention are adversely effective by a chain that is flapping all over the place, not to mention the constant noise of the thing hitting your chainstay. 1x systems eliminate that via a clutch RD which maintains chain tension over rough stuff.

Sometimes things break. Pavement usually means civilization and civilization means easy assistance from other human beings. Gravel/dirt means exactly the opposite. By removing a possible point of failure (the FD) a 1x drivetrain becomes just a little more "bulletproof" and field-serviceable should the sh*t hit the fan in the middle of nowhere.

Fair enough on the clutched derailleur. And I'll defer to those who know more than I know about 1x systems, but I don't see myself going that route anytime soon. That said, I don't do a ton of gravel riding.

Their Chorus groupset is pretty interesting and can be gotten with a hydraulic brake. Could be the setup for my Indy Fab, which has an early Shimano 9000 group I use with TRP Spyres and the whole setup works well but it's also getting a bit tired.

[saab2000]

On sale starting December 2019. Tesla was one of the leaders for sure but Porsche gives you a choice, for a price.

More limited range than a Tesla from what I understand. But Porsche has the resources of the VW group behind them, and that is very substantial.

I recently bought some Tesla stock. We'll see if that was smart or dumb....!! :eek:

[eBAUMANN]

More limited range than a Tesla from what I understand. But Porsche has the resources of the VW group behind them, and that is very substantial.

I recently bought some Tesla stock. We'll see if that was smart or dumb....!! :eek:

Everyone says "electric cars are the future" without stopping to consider the future of the massive batteries these cars use...and the extremely limited range/infrastructure...not to mention the "dirty" sources of a large percentage of the electricity used to charge these "green" vehicles.

Electric may be a part of the future but only for those who can afford it and have needs that can accept the limitations. Personally, I think the real future can only really exist in alternative "green" fuels that can run emissions-free in the millions of existing gas/diesel engines using the infrastructure that already exists all over the world.

Starting from scratch with electric is just not a viable option on a global level. And electric is a "solution" to a global problem.

[oldpotatoe]

With gravel race circuit pretty much as popular as ever, and pros even abandoning the pro peloton tour in order to race gravel I simply cannot understand why Campagnolo remains so behind.
I get it they all race oriented, but guess what? The most captivating races happens to be gravel races these days. Pros DO race gravel and with many bikes Campy is simply not an option due to their limiting gear range and the lack of a 1x or clutch RD.

I was a big die hard Campagnolo, spending extra to equip my frames with Campy but, as it is now, there is simply no product matching my requirement.

It would be so damn easy to introduce a rear derailleur with some clutch mechanism and those guys never listen to what the average use needs/wants.

And, by the way, Movistar just dropped Campy in favor of Sram...


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Lessee...how many sub compact cranks does shimano make? How about DA/ultegra/105 clutch rear ders? Mid cage DA rear ders?
It would be so damn easy to introduce a rear derailleur with some clutch mechanism and those guys never listen to what the average use needs/wants. [/B]


It's not easy and read below. GROAD bikes 'seem' to be marketing 'noisy', but still a small part of the market.
Gravel grinding 'seems' to be YUGE in the US, but in types of riding,it's still really small and pretty much non existent in Europe or Asia, Campagnolo's PRIMARY market. In the US, in spite of forums like this, cycling is a teeny, tiny segment of the 'sports enthusiast's' arena. Bikes are seen as toys in the USA.

BTW-pro race sponsorship(MovieStar..not many 'gravel races' they are going to be in, yes?) is all about money, money, money...Maybe they'll actually keep the sram stuff they get instead of dumping it and PAYING to get shimano, like BMC and C-Dale did...:eek:

BIG news...Astana and how many others switched from sram to shimano??

Like ohh so many premium brands and unlike sram and shimano who want to be everything to everybody, Campagnolo focus' on road.
-Rolex-not many digital or electric watches
-Tesla-SUV?
-VW/Porsche-trucks? No trucks, YUGE in the US..
-M-B..baby Benz anybody? How about 'people's Porsche'??
-Martin making any electric guitars? don't think so, even if you want one.

blah blah and IMHO, of course.

[JAGI410]

I did a gravel race using Campagnolo components intended for the road, and they did outstanding.

Gravel specific drivetrains are a desperate plea for money.

[eBAUMANN]

I did a gravel race using Campagnolo components intended for the road, and they did outstanding.

Gravel specific drivetrains are a desperate plea for money.

The entire bike Industry is a desperate plea for money.

[jamesdak]

I love Campagnolo's offerings myself. And with Shimano shooting itself in the foot by restricting sales from the European sites it makes Campagnolo even that more attractive! :banana:

[fignon's barber]

My prediction: cantilever brakes make a comeback in a couple years, touted as " easy to maintain rim brakes that can handle 40mm tires".

[ultraman6970]

I do not think 100% it is a thing that movistar dumped campagnolo, probably sram gave them a better deal and that saved them probably more money and that's why they went sram.

As for campagnolo missing the bus, I do not know what to tell you. Is not that you can not built a 1x with campagnolo parts, actually you can. And the italians know that and knowing them probably that's the reason they havent built anything else.

Always you can use a wolftooth if you need more capacity aswell.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=229489&page=2

The other detail, campagnolo was made in the road and sure they have a lot of experience in MTB and CX and based on that there is a slight chance that they are thinking in the giant jumps between cogs you have in those 1x systems. Personally I do not like them and many people here i remember can't understand them and well campagnolo could be saying the same and that's why they do not see the necesity because they find them ridiculous specially when they have stuff that works all the time.

[oldpotatoe]

I did a gravel race using Campagnolo components intended for the road, and they did outstanding.

Gravel specific drivetrains are a desperate plea for money.

The bike industry has been gooned up for years. Purpose driven bikes, that ya GOTTA have is nothing new. 'Standard set' is marketed so unless you have it, CANNOT ride that bike on 'gravel'.
-1by
-TA hubs
-disc brakes
-uber low gearing
-tubeless and fat, gotta be tubeless and fat
-fat oversized forks

now 'dropper seat posts(yikes)...

[Hellgate]

I ran a medium cage Chorus 10 on my CX bike for several years, with a, shutter... modified FSA 1X crank. It worked fine. And that was way back in the "Dark Ages" of 2003. How I survived is beyond me...

[e-RICHIE]

The entire bike Industry is a desperate plea for money.


Would agree.

ps

arrange disorder

:):):p
:):);)
:cool::cool::p

[eBAUMANN]

The reality is that different segments of the industry have a different priority of needs for their intended use.

For example - I don't give 2 sh*ts about how huge the jumps are between my cassette cogs but I LOVE the idea of a wheelset that uses the same spoke length front and rear, drive and nondrive...and a 31.8mm trigger shifter mount makes my heart flutter. These things have obvious and exciting benefits to me that may not occur to someone else who has no interest in spending hundreds of miles in the actual middle of nowhere.

I saw dropper seatposts mentioned...let me say a few words on the subject. I started this year with a dropper, which I didn't really use much (I didn't understand the benefits fully yet) until breaking it and replacing it with a (rigid) Thomson. It was warrantied and then sat in a box for the remainder of the year.

For the longest time having the saddle dropped felt weird, like a missing limb almost, but the arguments FOR a dropper became harder and harder to deny. Having your weight on your FEET (NOT your saddle) lowers your center of gravity which increases traction and stability on loose surfaces. Droppers not only give you the ability to get the saddle out of the way (been punched in the gut a few times this year thanks to not having a dropper), they also FORCE your weight onto your feet...where it should be. Of course this is all mtb talk, for gravel a dropper is pretty stupid.

[charliedid]

Campy is keeping literally millions of bike racers from ever experiencing gravel racing.

Shame really.

[zambenini]

Campagnolo is an european brand. Is gravel that popular in Europe? Is cycling as popular in the US as in Europe? Sincere questions.


Important. Campy seemed to work on the white roads fine, and Europe is far more tame and way less "wild" than North America. Europe's roads, tracks, and byways have been seeing traffic for thousands of years and bike trekking on roads and tracks there is culturally a thing, whereas road riding will get you killed here. Drivers seem to feel and enjoy the same Wild West experience every day on their way to In-n-Out Burger, that we're chasing on gravel roads. Inverse relationship between the advent of smart phones and the health of the road scene here, maybe? I've all but abandoned road, in favor of MTB, with gravel when I can. Seems like it depends on how much of the North American market Campy needs to command to stay alive. We're Norte Americanos, mostly. They may be looking at their European sales and how riding is going over there and not be worried a bit.

[AngryScientist]

i think campy is keeping pace nicely with mild gravel offerings.

i was pleasantly surprised when they introduced a sub-compact offering in chorus, and cassettes with a 32 large cog.

i do believe that they will see that sub-compact crank was their feeler to dip the toe in the water of lower gearing, and they'll see it sells well and is in demand, which will pave the road (haha) for more low gear range offerings.

they'll get there, but for now, for me personally, i'm satisfied with the options they currently offer.

[bigbill]

IMO, the only thing that really matters in gravel rides/racing are wheels and tires. You can make anything else work. I did a year of racing on a Gunnar Crosshairs with TRP mini V's, 8S Dura ace STI, and a 12-26 cassette, basically just a cross bike. I like my Coconino gravel bike with disc brakes and such, but I'm not any faster.

[eBAUMANN]

IMO, the only thing that really matters in gravel rides/racing are wheels and tires. You can make anything else work. I did a year of racing on a Gunnar Crosshairs with TRP mini V's, 8S Dura ace STI, and a 12-26 cassette, basically just a cross bike. I like my Coconino gravel bike with disc brakes and such, but I'm not any faster.

See for me, my priority is never "being faster" on gravel/mtbs...it's serviceability, simplicity, functionality. Parts that work well, are hard to break, and easy to fix. Also traction, traction is important ;)

[Dave]

Not all areas have gravel roads to explore. I live in a rural area of northern Colorado, but the only gravel roads are short stretches of road through private neighborhoods. Nothing exciting about that. To ride mtb, my neighbor makes a 20 mile round trip in his truck, just to get to the start of a good trail. I make that same trip, part of one of my regular road bike routes. I like riding from my house, not packing the bike up to travel to the start of a ride.

I do have Campy's latest low gear offering - the new Chorus 12 speed 48/32 with 11-34 cassette. That works great for the steep hills in my area.

[AngryScientist]

See for me, my priority is never "being faster" on gravel/mtbs...it's serviceability, simplicity, functionality. Parts that work well, are hard to break, and easy to fix. Also traction, traction is important ;)

For me, survival is important.

for many of the gravel rides i do, if i were on old 8-sp stuff with a low gear of 39/28 or some such nonsense, i could not finish.

sub 1:1 gearing has allowed me to ride longer rides, and be happier doing it.

[veggieburger]

And, by the way, Movistar just dropped Campy in favor of Sram...


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As stated, this has zero to do with one performing better than the other.
My .02

[dancinkozmo]

Campy is keeping literally hundreds of bike racers from ever experiencing gravel racing.

Shame really.

fixed :)

[Burnette]

With gravel race circuit pretty much as popular as ever, and pros even abandoning the pro peloton tour in order to race gravel I simply cannot understand why Campagnolo remains so behind.
I get it they all race oriented, but guess what? The most captivating races happens to be gravel races these days. Pros DO race gravel and with many bikes Campy is simply not an option due to their limiting gear range and the lack of a 1x or clutch RD.

I was a big die hard Campagnolo, spending extra to equip my frames with Campy but, as it is now, there is simply no product matching my requirement.

It would be so damn easy to introduce a rear derailleur with some clutch mechanism and those guys never listen to what the average use needs/wants.

And, by the way, Movistar just dropped Campy in favor of Sram...


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Shimano and to a lesser degree SRAM sell more product and therefore have the capital to spend.

They also own the OEM market which also makes it easier for them to confidently enter niches. You'll invest more freely when you know for sure what you're making is going to be spec'ed on X number of bikes as soon as you make it.

As far as the pros and the tour go, Froome and Sky would have won their titles on a Meridas with Shimano 105. It's a marketing tool with a dope infested field. Enjoy it for the show but don't draw too many conclusions from it.

[oldpotatoe]

As far as the pros and the tour go, Froome and Sky would have won their titles on a Meridas with Shimano 105. It's a marketing tool with a dope infested field. Enjoy it for the show but don't draw too many conclusions from it.

Big thumb's up...:)

[NoMoreParagon]

It puzzles me how many people saying 1x is marketing hype.
It’s really THE BEST thing happened to me riding gravel and all road. Where I ride I have often downhill followed by corners with super steep inclines and I couldn’t even imagine how hard it would be on a 2x.
With 1x you can go from small to big in a second.
It is really unbeatable for fast gravel riding.

Also with modern frame and the incessant quest of making short chainstays frames and wider tires clearance removing the FD interference is a necessity.

I think it ultimately depends on the terrain you ride on.
For my riding 1x and 55mm tire makes me the fastest I have been versus my 2x 38mm setup.

And it just sux so bad Campagnolo don’t cater for riders like me since I am sure I am not the only one in a similar situation


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[bigbill]

See for me, my priority is never "being faster" on gravel/mtbs...it's serviceability, simplicity, functionality. Parts that work well, are hard to break, and easy to fix. Also traction, traction is important ;)

My gravel bike is mostly 8000 Ultegra with an 11-32 and a 36/46 crankset. Other than new bb cups once a year, I don't think about it. My MTB is 1X and other than a weird chainline at the extremes, it has been flawless.

[zmalwo]

1x is just another way to simplify stuff for the dummies who can't set up FD correctly and complain about chain dropping.

[AngryScientist]

For my riding 1x and 55mm tire makes me the fastest I have been versus my 2x 38mm setup.


haha, i guess this proves your point exactly.

i would hate to ride any tire that wide, and definitely prefer 2x over 1x.

55mm tire? that's 2.2 inches! sounds like a mtb to me!

edit: obviously not saying your choices are wrong, but they would be dead wrong for me.

[Blue Jays]

Longtime and committed true Campagnolo fan here...so stating that part upfront.
My experience with the newest 12-speed is the engineering seems to reduce chain slap.
Not that I can offer demonstrable scientific proof, yet drivetrain remains extremely quiet.

[FlashUNC]

Let's not forget history either. Last time Campagnolo went in whole hog on the latest trend it damn near sunk the company, course that time it was mountain bikes.

Their road mechanical stuff is top of the class and they're dipping their toe in with Chorus as a gravel-adjacent group. Seems good enough for me.

[NoMoreParagon]

1x is just another way to simplify stuff for the dummies who can't set up FD correctly and complain about chain dropping.



Missing the point again.
Chain dropping is just a by product of 1x with clutch. What 1x does is allowing people who take their bike to a variety of terrains to ride in a very intuitive and easy way.



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[NoMoreParagon]

haha, i guess this proves your point exactly.

i would hate to ride any tire that wide, and definitely prefer 2x over 1x.

55mm tire? that's 2.2 inches! sounds like a mtb to me!

edit: obviously not saying your choices are wrong, but they would be dead wrong for me.



Yeah I agree with you. It’s really a very subjective choice and ultimately depends where you ride. I ride east coast US on a variety of road and light gravel and a 2x setup works perfect.
But then when in Europe and go for adventure / bikepacking then 1x makes much more sense for the terrain I am riding.

I don’t agree with everything Vroomen says, but I respect a lot what he did in terms of design of modern all road frame.
And his last iteration allows for 1x only. Ballsy move but functionally it was needed to produce a 420mm chainstay with that huge tire clearance


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[Blue Jays]

"...Let's not forget history either. Last time Campagnolo went in whole hog on the latest trend it damn near sunk the company, course that time it was mountain bikes..."
I recall that time period and trying to remember the name of their ill-fated mountainbike gruppo.
Campagnolo management undoubtedly contemplates those decisions when considering new paths.

[notsew]

It puzzles me how many people saying 1x is marketing hype.
It’s really THE BEST thing happened to me riding gravel and all road. Where I ride I have often downhill followed by corners with super steep inclines and I couldn’t even imagine how hard it would be on a 2x.
With 1x you can go from small to big in a second.
It is really unbeatable for fast gravel riding.




Huh? I don't get it. Isn't making a large jump the whole advantage of a FD?

Don't get me wrong, I've got 1x on my mountain bike, where I don't really care to have minor increments to my shifting. Makes a lot of sense from a frame design point of view. But, I don't see the advantage on gravel - maybe when you're getting up to 50s, I guess...

And it would absolutely be nice if Campy had a clutch derailleur, but I get the sense that Campy makes plenty of money and are happy being the campy they are. No need for any of this business on a proper road bike.

[FriarQuade]

They also own the OEM market which also makes it easier for them to confidently enter niches. You'll invest more freely when you know for sure what you're making is going to be spec'ed on X number of bikes as soon as you make it.


This is the root cause, everything else is a result of Campagnolo's lack of OE market share.

[NoMoreParagon]

Maybe there are much better riders then me but sometime you see climbs out of nowhere where switching FD is not a possibility. With a capable 1x you can still change cogs and get out of trouble


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[R3awak3n]

I have to agree with NoMoreParagon here.

However I also think that if campy put all this money on gravel group, not a lot would buy it. I know OP would and so would I but most of the gravel market people are good with shimano and sram. They probably actually started on sram and are now on GRX or still on sram. Maybe I could be wrong but I really think people would not drop their cheap GRX and go run to campy playing twice as much for what for them would be very little benefit (hey, their bike shifters would look a lot nicer though).


As far as 1X, I will have to say that it was a big no no for me but after ridding it for a few miles now I think it has its place. I am still a very big NO on a bike that sees a lot of road miles, I just hate it for that but when on gravel then its perfect and works really well and in my opinion better for the fact that is simpler and you don't have to worry about mud mucking it all up.

As far as clutch derailleur, I think its a must for anything super bumpy. I don't care if you rode your gravel race with whatever group and you killed it, thats great but clutch derailleur are awesome.

Campy is campy. They will move at their own pace and slowly maybe even fade away. I love campy and will still buy campy, best road group hands down (sram etap is close though) and the campy hydro stuff is just incredible (also the best hydro system imo).

[Jaybee]

Huh? I don't get it. Isn't making a large jump the whole advantage of a FD?

Don't get me wrong, I've got 1x on my mountain bike, where I don't really care to have minor increments to my shifting. Makes a lot of sense from a frame design point of view. But, I don't see the advantage on gravel - maybe when you're getting up to 50s, I guess...

And it would absolutely be nice if Campy had a clutch derailleur, but I get the sense that Campy makes plenty of money and are happy being the campy they are. No need for any of this business on a proper road bike.

how often are you in the correct rear cog when you dump from big ring to small? If not, then you’re double shifting at a time when your also concentrating on terrain and trying to keep yourself off the deck. in these situations, I find it easier to do one big sweep of the right hand shifter than a double shift. That said, I’m riding a 48-32 double up front still, but I treat it like 2 different 1x systems. 48x whatever on the flats and rollers, 32x whatever in the dirt.

[ERK55]

Fair enough on the clutched derailleur. And I'll defer to those who know more than I know about 1x systems, but I don't see myself going that route anytime soon. That said, I don't do a ton of gravel riding.

Their Chorus groupset is pretty interesting and can be gotten with a hydraulic brake. Could be the setup for my Indy Fab, which has an early Shimano 9000 group I use with TRP Spyres and the whole setup works well but it's also getting a bit tired.

Jim, I find myself in the midst of a similar thought process albeit mine is a Carl Strong bike instead of IF. I suspect our frames are of a similar vintage... does yours have post mount or flat mount brakes? Mine are post mount (as is the Enve cross fork that came with the frame), more or less the standard a few years back). If post mount, doesn’t this rule out using the Campagnolo disc calipers?

[C40_guy]

Campy is keeping literally millions of bike racers from ever experiencing gravel racing.

Shame really.

Maybe Campagnolo marketing isn't focusing on it...but you can certainly configure a gravel bike with several different Campy offerings.

Take a look back at CX photos from the '70s. Racers were running Campy Nuovo Record equipment in the dirt. :)

[OtayBW]

Maybe Campagnolo marketing isn't focusing on it...but you can certainly configure a gravel bike with several different Campy offerings.Correct. It's very likely just a business decision....

[Butch]

Campy missed the boat on a couple of the trends the US market had going.

When rims and tires were getting wider they had rim brake calipers that as the rim got wider and the pads moved out, the arms lowered down to reduce tire clearance. Meeting with them at Eurobike in '16 I pointed this out, they knew it, but it made it difficult to want to sell. They were showing the disc brakes to us in the back that year and we discussed the whole trend towards wider and the Euro POV was 23c all the way. The disc designs they showed that year were ok, but it was the same time Shimano was introducing ICE technology so 140 rotor could be used on road bikes and the Campy was all about 160 rotors.

It was also hard to be a small OEM partner with them because the margins were very slim. We wanted to be one, but with a business based on wholesale sales the math was bad.

I think the idea of a running a 28 or 30 on a road bike was very foreign to the euro companies, same with the rim width growth. I know Mavic had a challenge moving in that direction quickly as well.

[Vientomas]

Let's translate but using the same logic

Porsche is so behind. The future is electronic and Tesla has the inroad here. I get tit, Porsche is a driver's car, but I want electric so I am have no choice in Porsche.

:fight:

uuuhhmmmm....https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-turbo/

[Powerful Pete]

The point being made is that the gravel market is not really that important for Campagnolo, and currently represents a financial risk. While it may be unfortunate for you, OP, I would think that what others have said makes sense - most of the gravel folks who started on SRAM or Shimano will not change to Campagnolo for what is basically the same bits but only more expensive.

Forecasts of Campagnolo going under have been appearing ever since newsgroups appeared on the internet.

As far as I understand they sell all the Record and Super Record bits they make, and Chorus is not doing too badly either.

Also I seem to remember the Campagnolo MTB group was called Euclid?

[Etienne]

I think it ultimately depends on the terrain you ride on.
For my riding 1x and 55mm tire makes me the fastest I have been versus my 2x 38mm setup.

Clearly ... I am fortunate enough to have both setups, 55mm tires on my 1x monstercross and 38mm tires on my 2x all-road bike.

Each one is the fastest on its own terrain ... "gravel" is in fact a full array of uses, with overlaps but also very specific demands. Everyone should find what he needs, I cannot understand the "1x bad - 2x good" and vice versa discussions :confused:

[Clancy]

Campagnolo is doing just what they want to do which is to be in a very defined niche with a highly refined product. No doubt they’ve explored everything here that’s been discussed and have their reasons for not currently developing and introducing gravel specific products.

And as mentioned, Campagnolo is a far smaller company than either of the other two.

I’m curious, anyone know the total sales of Shimano cycling vs Campagnolo?

I also find curious the reasoning behind this discussion. It’s only been a few years since 1X and dropper posts hit the gravel scene. Heck, the whole gravel scene has only been around for a few years. Yet here we are wondering why Campagnolo hasn’t jumped on the newest trend. But there certainly will be a discussion started elsewhere on the forum lamenting how bike companies are always creating the newest trend.

I’m for one very much appreciate the focus, specificity and uniqueness of Campagnolo. It’s a small Italian company making beautiful products in the very Italian manner.

I cannot imagine a Campagnolo dropper seatpost. Or a 10-46 cassette. Just typing that made me wince.

[denapista]

Campy is keeping literally millions of bike racers from ever experiencing gravel racing.

Shame really.

https://media.giphy.com/media/9SJaIzKLznBwDE2GTb/giphy.gif

[XXtwindad]

https://media.giphy.com/media/9SJaIzKLznBwDE2GTb/giphy.gif

Is this a Campy thread? Or a 1X thread? Can't comment on the former, but as to the latter, I think 1X makes perfect sense on a MTB. The rest really depends on the terrain. Little variance is great for the simplicity of a 1X, but if you've got undulating hills punctuated with lots of flats (excuse the pun), a 2X makes a better option.

Daymond John to a contestant who "projected" sales that John thought was wildly overoptimistic: "And I'm projecting myself to look like the guy from 'Thor' next year." Funnier than hell. Love that guy.

[Clean39T]

I have to agree with NoMoreParagon here.



However I also think that if campy put all this money on gravel group, not a lot would buy it. I know OP would and so would I but most of the gravel market people are good with shimano and sram. They probably actually started on sram and are now on GRX or still on sram. Maybe I could be wrong but I really think people would not drop their cheap GRX and go run to campy playing twice as much for what for them would be very little benefit (hey, their bike shifters would look a lot nicer though).





As far as 1X, I will have to say that it was a big no no for me but after ridding it for a few miles now I think it has its place. I am still a very big NO on a bike that sees a lot of road miles, I just hate it for that but when on gravel then its perfect and works really well and in my opinion better for the fact that is simpler and you don't have to worry about mud mucking it all up.



As far as clutch derailleur, I think its a must for anything super bumpy. I don't care if you rode your gravel race with whatever group and you killed it, thats great but clutch derailleur are awesome.



Campy is campy. They will move at their own pace and slowly maybe even fade away. I love campy and will still buy campy, best road group hands down (sram etap is close though) and the campy hydro stuff is just incredible (also the best hydro system imo).

The ergonomics of Campy levers just aren't suited to gravel handlebars either.....is what it is..

Off-road is all about function over form, unless posing for the 'gram or cultivating a fan-boy club to sell your own brand of products and an alternative cycling lifestyle.....nttawwt, but GRX is going to be really hard to beat at this point from a pure functionality perspective.

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[rain dogs]

1. Shimano just released GRX basically.... now. It's not like Shimano has been doing this for 5 years either. What's taken them so long?

2. Shimano sells MTB gear. Their development curve is miles ahead. A "GRX gravel" derailleur is just a rebranded MTB derailleur - basically Deore XT Shadow +

3. What % of people riding road bikes do you think are riding only Campagnolo components (as in prefer not to use Shimano/Sram)? and of those people what % are riding Gravel? and of those what % are riding wider than 40mm tires? and of those, what % is wanting 1x? and of THOSE, what % can't mechanically solve that problem and are waiting on a Campy 1x crank?

You may be approaching a VERY, VERY, VERY small, I'd say TINY number of people.

4. For reals.... does this issue really upset you?

... so let's say Campy invests in and makes a gravel specific 1x crankset, how many units do you really think they will sell? 1000? 10000? 100000? 1000000? I bet you the number is much smaller than you think. Larger companies, whether they are Campy sized or Shimano sized don't care about you at all. The one you. They care about the 1 million you's. I don't think there are even 5000 of you...

I have a gravel bike. I'm a Campy user on every bike I own. I have Campagnolo Ergos on my gravel bike.... I don't have your problem, nor do I need the solution you desire. Campagnolo isn't going to, and shouldn't, invest 100*X to make a return of 10*X

[denapista]

If you're stuffing 2.2 and 2.4 tires on your gravel bike, just get a MTB. At some point the gravel bike will become limited during your dirt adventures. My custom 29er rigid flies on dirt and road, and has an aggressive road style geometry.

I just feel like the industry swindled everyone into this gravel bike thing. Creating a new niche of cycling that already existed in MTB, in the form of a rigid. I also don't understand why people shun MTB so much. I guess everyone feels that riding a MTB, means you need flames on your helmet with a Troy Lee outfit.

Campy isn't here to cater to your specific needs. They're a brand of excellence and quality. Can you say the same about SRAM in their entire existence? One brand is here to cater to your gravel desires and grab your money, the other is here to cater to instilling quality and heritage into cycling..

[R3awak3n]

The ergonomics of Campy levers just aren't suited to gravel handlebars either.....is what it is..

Off-road is all about function over form, unless posing for the 'gram or cultivating a fan-boy club to sell your own brand of products and an alternative cycling lifestyle.....nttawwt, but GRX is going to be really hard to beat at this point from a pure functionality perspective.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

but what is gravel handlebars? are we talking about flared bars?
I just can't which flared shifters... I love flare in the drops but to me a shifters should be straight.

Why I have, and really recommend to anyone, to get the 3T bars. My shifters are perfectly straight and then they flare out (a lot actually, a much as any gravel shifter).

I agree with GRX being hard to beat, its a good deal for what you get but you are also getting old tech (not saying old tech is bad but its nothing new, just branded gravel with better shifter ergonomics)

[Clean39T]

One brand is here to cater to your gravel desires and grab your money, the other is here to cater to instilling quality and heritage into cycling..

Well put.





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[jamesdak]

1x is just another way to simplify stuff for the dummies who can't set up FD correctly and complain about chain dropping.

:banana::banana::banana::banana:

Some heads would explode if they saw that I even....gasp... run triples!

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166791002.jpg

Crazy how they actually just seem to work for me.

[SimonC]

I think MTB became too specialised, and gravel is just a return to the (~20 year old) classic variant. Ironically often for those who were not around the first time...

[colker]

And it just sux so bad Campagnolo don’t cater for riders like me since I am sure I am not the only one in a similar situation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why the drama? Shimano makes what you need. Buy it. I promise : there is way more sux in this life than campagnolo not selling what you want.

[Clean39T]

but what is gravel handlebars? are we talking about flared bars?
I just can't which flared shifters... I love flare in the drops but to me a shifters should be straight.

Why I have, and really recommend to anyone, to get the 3T bars. My shifters are perfectly straight and then they flare out (a lot actually, a much as any gravel shifter).

I agree with GRX being hard to beat, its a good deal for what you get but you are also getting old tech (not saying old tech is bad but its nothing new, just branded gravel with better shifter ergonomics)

I haven't tried the 3T bars - just my experience on other ones.. It's a long reach to the thumb button from flared gravel bars and the hand position on the hoods that I love for road riding with Campy ergos just doesn't feel as good off-road when I need to hang on a bit differently. My $0.02 - ymmmv..

[colker]

I think MTB became too specialised, and gravel is just a return to the (~20 year old) classic variant. Ironically often for those who were not around the first time...


If i remember correctly the mtb experiment was a nightmare for Campagnolo. Maybe they should stay away.

[jc031699]

Well put.





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Or maybe they’re all there to make money, just in different ways, at different scales, with different standards of style and target customers.


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[EricChanning]

If you're stuffing 2.2 and 2.4 tires on your gravel bike, just get a MTB. At some point the gravel bike will become limited during your dirt adventures. My custom 29er rigid flies on dirt and road, and has an aggressive road style geometry.

I just feel like the industry swindled everyone into this gravel bike thing. Creating a new niche of cycling that already existed in MTB, in the form of a rigid. I also don't understand why people shun MTB so much. I guess everyone feels that riding a MTB, means you need flames on your helmet with a Troy Lee outfit....



I recently got back into riding MTB on a regular basis and bought an XC full suspension bike with a more slack geometry than my 90's rigid 26er. The new bike isn't built for the extreme stuff (no helmet flames needed) but it is so much more fun to ride than my old XC bike.

I could have skipped getting a gravel bike and used my old rigid 26er for gravel but then I'd have to deal with a triple crankset, a suspension fork and the position limiting flat bars. I could have customized the thing for the kind of gravel riding I like to do but nah.

I'm glad I got swindled into buying a gravel bike and updating my XC MTB with a 1X slack geo set up. I'm having more off-pavement fun than I could have imagined 20 years ago. Really. You talk about gravel bikes as if they were an early 90's bio pace kind of fad rather than something that makes sense for a lot of people. Curious about your custom 29er tho! Got a pic?

[colker]

Is this a Campy thread? Or a 1X thread? Can't comment on the former, but as to the latter, I think 1X makes perfect sense on a MTB. The rest really depends on the terrain. Little variance is great for the simplicity of a 1X, but if you've got undulating hills punctuated with lots of flats (excuse the pun), a 2X makes a better option.

Daymond John to a contestant who "projected" sales that John thought was wildly overoptimistic: "And I'm projecting myself to look like the guy from 'Thor' next year." Funnier than hell. Love that guy.

The main reason for 1x is sticking a fat tire on a 700 wheel under a bike w/ short chainstays. Campagnolo is not focused on really fat tires.

[shinomaster]

Somehow I managed to race cross and ride "gravel" (gravel is a terrible surface on which to ride/race btw., dirt is more appropriate) on a steel bike with narrow rims and a Campy, Centaur ten speed group (which lasted about ten years), and I never felt hindered by the RD. The crank was cobbled together with a PMP 48 and a Record 36 ring. I see the new Chorus stuff as a big improvement and wish I had it ten years ago obviously. I agree that the bike industry is forcing much of this stuff on us. Sure if you are a first time bike buyer go with it, but I'm keeping my cross bike and riding over every surface with 32's and road parts.

P.S. I'd rather get a 29'r MTB than a gravel bike.

[Clean39T]

Or maybe they’re all there to make money, just in different ways, at different scales, with different standards of style and target customers.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkProbably, but if it isn't hurting anyone, why not wear the rose-colored glasses?

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[tomato coupe]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. I ride and race gravel with Campy -- it works just fine.

[ultraman6970]

I have a bike with it too. I think marketing did just enough so they were able to sell those new 1x components, and now everybody like going after those set ups when with a triple you go almost the same w/o having those giant jumps in the cogs.

:banana::banana::banana::banana:

Some heads would explode if they saw that I even....gasp... run triples!

https://pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166791002.jpg

Crazy how they actually just seem to work for me.

[Dave]

The new 48/32 with an 11-34 provides a bit lower gearing than a triple with a 28 little ring and 29 sprocket. The bigger jumps are just where they are needed.

[charliedid]

fixed :)

Might even reach into the dozens.

[dancinkozmo]

Might even reach into the dozens.

what the campyphiles lack in numbers they make up for in enthusiasm...
kind of like fans of blackberrys

[choke]

I recall that time period and trying to remember the name of their ill-fated mountainbike gruppo.

Also I seem to remember the Campagnolo MTB group was called Euclid?There were Themis, Euclid, Centaur, Icarus and Record OR groups.

They did some innovative things in those groups. Icarus and Record OR had cranks with cassette style mounting for the middle and small rings.

I have a bike that is full Euclid and it works as well as anything I've ever used, though most people on the internet seem to think that a Campy MTB group is crap.

[C40_guy]

I have a gravel bike. I'm a Campy user on every bike I own. I have Campagnolo Ergos on my gravel bike....

I have a similar commitment to Campagnolo...been riding it since I bought an Atala Grand Prix with mixed Campy/Stronglight/Weinmann. Should have bought the higher end Atala which was all Campy...I probably spent twice as much upgrading that first bike.

Riding Campy in the dirt does have the occasional challenge. Top pull front derailleur? :(

[Burnette]

If you're stuffing 2.2 and 2.4 tires on your gravel bike, just get a MTB. At some point the gravel bike will become limited during your dirt adventures. My custom 29er rigid flies on dirt and road, and has an aggressive road style geometry.

I just feel like the industry swindled everyone into this gravel bike thing. Creating a new niche of cycling that already existed in MTB, in the form of a rigid. I also don't understand why people shun MTB so much. I guess everyone feels that riding a MTB, means you need flames on your helmet with a Troy Lee outfit.

Campy isn't here to cater to your specific needs. They're a brand of excellence and quality. Can you say the same about SRAM in their entire existence? One brand is here to cater to your gravel desires and grab your money, the other is here to cater to instilling quality and heritage into cycling..

Consumers pushed for gravel. Congested roads have only gotten worse and gravel rising Is indeed fun. Look at ride threads here and in other bicycle forums and you will see quite of few of our members are really into gravel.

Campagnolo is a for profit bicycle component company that would love cater to cater to more needs. That was the whole point of the Potenza line. They made an honest effort for OE sales and fell short.

Ans seriously, it's not like the other brands aren't of quality. Campy has sold crap too at times and that's rmfron people who are into the brand.

Living off if nostalgia isn't a long term strategy and Campagnolo knows this. Living on the margins by it's self doesn't make you better, it makes you vulnerable.

[denapista]

I recently got back into riding MTB on a regular basis and bought an XC full suspension bike with a more slack geometry than my 90's rigid 26er. The new bike isn't built for the extreme stuff (no helmet flames needed) but it is so much more fun to ride than my old XC bike.

I could have skipped getting a gravel bike and used my old rigid 26er for gravel but then I'd have to deal with a triple crankset, a suspension fork and the position limiting flat bars. I could have customized the thing for the kind of gravel riding I like to do but nah.

I'm glad I got swindled into buying a gravel bike and updating my XC MTB with a 1X slack geo set up. I'm having more off-pavement fun than I could have imagined 20 years ago. Really. You talk about gravel bikes as if they were an early 90's bio pace kind of fad rather than something that makes sense for a lot of people. Curious about your custom 29er tho! Got a pic?


After getting my Rigid made, I wanted an Open, but it would just overlap with my 29er which will do all dirt activity better.. IMHO

https://live.staticflickr.com/4720/38814814625_b1d2724981_c.jpg

[denapista]

Consumers pushed for gravel. Congested roads have only gotten worse and gravel rising Is indeed fun. Look at ride threads here and in other bicycle forums and you will see quite of few of our members are really into gravel.

Campagnolo is a for profit bicycle component company that would love cater to cater to more needs. That was the whole point of the Potenza line. They made an honest effort for OE sales and fell short.

Ans seriously, it's not like the other brands aren't of quality. Campy has sold crap too at times and that's rmfron people who are into the brand.

Living off if nostalgia isn't a long term strategy and Campagnolo knows this. Living on the margins by it's self doesn't make you better, it makes you vulnerable.

I agree with you.. No one goes into business without the thought of making a profit. Campy is more strategic to who they market their product too.. Gravel is area specific by geography. In LA we don't have GRAVEL. We have steep rocky trails, where a MTB is more suited. If you want to ride a smooth fire road, then you can do that on a road bike with crappy tires that don't puncture.

This gravel phenom is just a catch phrase that turned into an entire segment of bikes. I understood the need for a road geometry style frame with large clearance. It makes sense. XC bikes were typically sold to race XC, and the high BB showed that, and they were noodles in the fun stuff, handling wise.

Campy has made crap, everyone has tossed a donut with a crappy product. SRAM has been tossing donuts like Krispy Kreme though..

[dancinkozmo]

Campy has made crap, everyone has tossed a donut with a crappy product. SRAM has been tossing donuts like Krispy Kreme though..

anyone remember shimano santé ? LOL

[R3awak3n]

After getting my Rigid made, I wanted an Open, but it would just overlap with my 29er which will do all dirt activity better.. IMHO

https://live.staticflickr.com/4720/38814814625_b1d2724981_c.jpg

No it won't. Take a ride like D2R2, you will be miserable on a MTB (I have friends that have, they swore never again). The OPEN will be a much better bike on gravel and anything pavement like. The 29er will be better on single track.

MTBs are great but on what people now a days consider gravel (DK, D2R2, Unpaved, grinduro, landrun, yada yada yada), they are not the right tool for the job.

[nmrt]

Whoa! What an English! :)
I too had a similar bike -- Moots Mooto-X RSL that I had set up as a rigid. I sold it when I found out that my gravel bike was faster than the Moots on similar terrain -- gravely roads and smooth, flowy singletrack. Yes, the Moots was much more fun than the gravel bike on flowy singletrack. But it was a bore to ride on gravely roads. I kept the gravel bike and also bought a more hardcore slacked out hardtail instead. So, when i want to ride flowly singletrack, I take my gravebike or sometimes my hardtail. And for days when I want to gravel grind, it is my gravel bike.

As some have said, a gravel bike is required for a very specific terrain. Or else it will overlap with XC mtb bikes. If you have those types or terrain suited for a gravel bike, you will appreciate the presence of such bike in your quiver.

After getting my Rigid made, I wanted an Open, but it would just overlap with my 29er which will do all dirt activity better.. IMHO

https://live.staticflickr.com/4720/38814814625_b1d2724981_c.jpg

[Spoker]

Rigid MTB is the most versatile bike imo. As soon as sustained climbing and descending is involved a gravel / cross bike sucks in comparison.
And 2x means 34/24 for me; bliss when the roads get challenging and the day long.

[d_douglas]

Wow that English hardtail is amazing. Me love!!

[mflaherty37]

Yo I run a SuperX Campy 10 with and FSA 34/46 crank and TRP mechanical brakes. It works fine.

[oldpotatoe]

Not all areas have gravel roads to explore. I live in a rural area of northern Colorado, but the only gravel roads are short stretches of road through private neighborhoods. Nothing exciting about that. To ride mtb, my neighbor makes a 20 mile round trip in his truck, just to get to the start of a good trail. I make that same trip, part of one of my regular road bike routes. I like riding from my house, not packing the bike up to travel to the start of a ride.

I do have Campy's latest low gear offering - the new Chorus 12 speed 48/32 with 11-34 cassette. That works great for the steep hills in my area.

Surprising, isn't it..there are a few dirt roads north of the republic but not many...I see LOTS of disc brake bikes these days BUT..all on the YUGE road offerings around and north of, the republic.

But ayup..Chorus 12s, mid compact, 32t cogset, 2by, really superior disc brakes, a BUNCH of wheelsouttaboxes, disc brake offerings(Fulcrum too)..yup, I think they are doin just fine, thanks. Expect to see more of this filter down to Potenza and Centaur..

Chorus is way more 'dirt ready' than a across the board same level, group by sram or shimano(DA/ultegra or red/rival)...

[oldpotatoe]

I recall that time period and trying to remember the name of their ill-fated mountainbike gruppo.
Campagnolo management undoubtedly contemplates those decisions when considering new paths.

They actually had many MTB groups, Record OR, Centaur, Icarus, Themis, Olympus, Euclid..problem was it was clunky, didn't work all that well and was battling shimano and suntour..late 80s thru early 90s...Altho Record OR and some others were very innovative..'Compact' MTB cranks(before Suntour)..small ring a cogset cog held on with a lock ring. EXCELLENT brakes and shifters but some of the ontegrated stuff wasn't great. Too many levels also.
MTB was Valentino's baby from day one(after Tullio died in 1983, RIP Commandante)..along with rims and later, wheels....I really doubt Tullio would have done this..kinda like Enzo making a SUV....

Clancy-I’m curious, anyone know the total sales of Shimano cycling vs Campagnolo?


Roughly, shimano is $1.2-$1.4 BILLION, sram is about $600-$700 million, Campagnolo is about $150 million...sram's a little tougher because they bought a bunch of brands, all manufacture in Asia-Rockshox, Truvativ, Avid, Saches, Zipp....Rather than develop a lot of 'stuff, like wheels, they bought a wheel company, same for brakes, cranks, etc...I think sram's 'debt' is a larger percentage than the other 2..shimano's for sure..they retire more debt per year than Campagnolo grosses.

[Nomadmax]

I live in a small town in SW Ohio, there are rural roads 3 blocks from my house but they're all paved. I've run Campy since the 70s and don't have the slightest interest in "gravel bikes" or "gravel racing/riding". I'm not loading my bike into vehicle to go ride.

Just because the inter-net and print media claim something is "a thing" doesn't make it so. In my opinion as it relates to how and where I ride; "gravel bikes" are for selling and nothing else.

[Clancy]

I live in a small town in SW Ohio, there are rural roads 3 blocks from my house but they're all paved. I've run Campy since the 70s and don't have the slightest interest in "gravel bikes" or "gravel racing/riding". I'm not loading my bike into vehicle to go ride.

Just because the inter-net and print media claim something is "a thing" doesn't make it so. In my opinion as it relates to how and where I ride; "gravel bikes" are for selling and nothing else.

Totally disagree. I live in an area that is abundant in rural gravel roads, farm roads and ranch roads. A bike with the proper geometry and tires allows far more confident handling and comfort over these roads.

The gravel phenomenon may be one of the few times where the industry is scrambling to catch-up with a consumer driven trend, much like how the industry scrambled to develop products for the new mountain bike riding craze of the 80’s and 90’s.

There is no question that the exploding gravel market has produced products that have made riding theses roads for more comfortable, efficient and more enjoyable. Many new and extremely viable products have been created that would otherwise never have been brought to market in order to meet this demand. Like every new venture, some silly and downright stupid products have also been introduced.

Growing automobile congestion is forcing cyclists to go further out in search of safer roads. In hindsight, gravel riding should have been long foreseen.

Fewer and fewer live in areas where riding on quiet roads remains feasible. Sounds like you still have this luxury.

Don’t judge the rest of the country by the view outside your window.

[Burnette]

I live in a small town in SW Ohio, there are rural roads 3 blocks from my house but they're all paved. I've run Campy since the 70s and don't have the slightest interest in "gravel bikes" or "gravel racing/riding". I'm not loading my bike into vehicle to go ride.

Just because the inter-net and print media claim something is "a thing" doesn't make it so. In my opinion as it relates to how and where I ride; "gravel bikes" are for selling and nothing else.

Campy, SRAM, Shimano, Trek, Frito Lay and Cottonell are all for selling. It's the reason they exist and when they stop doing that, they will cease to exist.

Companies can have ideology but they have bills and operate in the same market as others and therefore are acted upon and react accordingly to those forces.

I've always felt it was a disservice to and disparaging of other cyclist that they fell for marketing just because they enjoy the activity with different parts than another.

If you've read the thread you know people here on Paceline are really into gravel riding. You read it in their ride reports. You can read it on other cycling forums, at bike shops and on social media. Consumers created the need and continue to do so. You cater to what sells, even Campy. They just don't have the scale and OE contracts to compete in every niche.

[Spoker]

For what it's worth: A few years ago one of the US pro cyclocross riders (Georgia Gould?)over in Belgium ran Camagnolo because the levers could be cleaned and rebuild unlike the competions.

[eBAUMANN]

For what it's worth: A few years ago one of the US pro cyclocross riders (Georgia Gould?)over in Belgium ran Camagnolo because the levers could be cleaned and rebuild unlike the competions.

I feel like SRAM levers are also pretty rebuildable...Shimano, maybe not so much but SRAM internals are pretty simple and easy to remove/replace.

[oldpotatoe]

Totally disagree. I live in an area that is abundant in rural gravel roads, farm roads and ranch roads. A bike with the proper geometry and tires allows far more confident handling and comfort over these roads.

The gravel phenomenon may be one of the few times where the industry is scrambling to catch-up with a consumer driven trend, much like how the industry scrambled to develop products for the new mountain bike riding craze of the 80’s and 90’s.

There is no question that the exploding gravel market has produced products that have made riding theses roads for more comfortable, efficient and more enjoyable. Many new and extremely viable products have been created that would otherwise never have been brought to market in order to meet this demand. Like every new venture, some silly and downright stupid products have also been introduced.

Growing automobile congestion is forcing cyclists to go further out in search of safer roads. In hindsight, gravel riding should have been long foreseen.

Fewer and fewer live in areas where riding on quiet roads remains feasible. Sounds like you still have this luxury.

Don’t judge the rest of the country by the view outside your window.

I'd say, absolutely..Around here, a cycling mecca by any measure, the 'gravel' scene is still teeny, tiny..since the roads most traveled around here are wide shoulder, well maintained..really no reason to drive or ride to those few 'gravel' roads around here. 'Explosion'?? I wouldn't say that. YES, most road bikes I see have disc brakes but 'exploding gravel market'..?? not really.

YMMV and all that.

[oldpotatoe]

Burnette-
I've always felt it was a disservice to and disparaging of other cyclist that they fell for marketing just because they enjoy the activity with different parts than another.

c'mon, you slam anybody that 'buys what the pros ride'...gets that Dimension Data team issue replica'.......

Win on sunday, sell on monday alive and well in the bike biz, PARTICUARLY in Europe and Asia(Japan)...
I feel like SRAM levers are also pretty rebuildable...Shimano, maybe not so much but SRAM internals are pretty simple and easy to remove/replace.

Yes, but alas, no small parts available from sram. Not shimano either. Campag, yes, assemblies buy more than a fewlike me, buy and then cannibalize for small parts.

Nope, not gonna do that for sram, sorry...

[verticaldoug]

Since the Campagnolo family doesn't want to make cheap group sets to subsidize the company and sell on crappy bikes, they need to be more focused.

I don't think gravel is that big in Europe and the high end in Japan/Europe are happy with Campy on high end bikes. I actually think the whole gravel thing is over blown. It's just a road.

It's family owned, so they can do what they want. Oddly, I find the arrogance refreshing.

[AngryScientist]

I'm not loading my bike into vehicle to go ride.



this is another area that highlights that everyones interests and behaviors are different.

even if i lived in an absolute cycling mecca I would never be happy riding the same exact roads 365 days a year. there is so much variety out there. so many great roads and places to explore by bike. taking cycling trips is part of the fun for me and seeing new interesting places.

to each their own though, of course.

[Burnette]

Burnette-


c'mon, you slam anybody that 'buys what the pros ride'...gets that Dimension Data team issue replica'.......

Win on sunday, sell on monday alive and well in the bike biz, PARTICUARLY in Europe and Asia(Japan)...


Yes, but alas, no small parts available from sram. Not shimano either. Campag, yes, assemblies buy more than a fewlike me, buy and then cannibalize for small parts.

Nope, not gonna do that for sram, sorry...

I have never "slammed" anyone for riding what the pros ride and I have no idea who Dimension Data even is. People should wear what they like, replica or not. Just like they should use components and everything else they like.

The win on Sunday sell on Monday, even in Europe died decades ago. The Tour is a traveling weeks long trade show, nothing more. Nobody seriously believes Froome won because of his bike or what was on it.

The market is changing, gravel is growing and alas eBikes are too. Accept change or not, it happens.

[Burnette]

this is another area that highlights that everyones interests and behaviors are different.

even if i lived in an absolute cycling mecca I would never be happy riding the same exact roads 365 days a year. there is so much variety out there. so many great roads and places to explore by bike. taking cycling trips is part of the fun for me and seeing new interesting places.

to each their own though, of course.

Agree, because I go through both scenarios. I vary my routes every ride but after a spring/summer it gets routine so I add out of town rides to mix it up. I wouldn't want to be stuck in either option, great I can do both.

[denapista]

I don't like driving to local rides, but driving is something I'm not against.
In Los Angeles, if I want to ride the good SM mountains, I have to drive out there. I've done it from my house (South Pasadena), but that becomes an 9hr day and over 120mi, if I add in the climbs. Factor in traversing across the entire city and stop lights. It becomes a long day.

Driving up to the Sierras to do all of those climbs, would be difficult without a car. I'm going to assume that comment was geared towards super local rides. Most of us purchased cars with "cycling transport" in the decision of the purchase.

I also think that we live in the number #1 consumer/marketing sector of the world. Of course cyclists fall for the marketing (XX1 vs XX1 eagle, etc). We're one of the most wasteful countries. You have a perfectly fine tool in your garage to tackle gravel, but you fell for marketing and hype to get the new wide ++ BOOST+++ bike to do the same rides you've been doing the past 10 years of your life. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just a realistic thing. We all fall for marketing and hype. I used to own 9 overlapping bikes. I really wanted an Up bike, but it will overlap my rigid, which is good for my dirt needs where I live. If they added a simple rack mount on the Open Up (Spork fork), then I would already have one in my stable.

[CO_Hoya]

This is a bit surprising to me, as I’m cobbling together a budget gravel bike to climb the dirt roads above Boulder and avoid traffic (e.g. Sunshine).

Surprising, isn't it..there are a few dirt roads north of the republic but not many...I see LOTS of disc brake bikes these days BUT..all on the YUGE road offerings around and north of, the republic.

[AngryScientist]

Of course cyclists fall for the marketing (XX1 vs XX1 eagle, etc). We're one of the most wasteful countries. You have a perfectly fine tool in your garage to tackle gravel, but you fell for marketing and hype to get the new wide ++ BOOST+++ bike to do the same rides you've been doing the past 10 years of your life.

newest built gravel bike. i think i may have missed the marketing memos :hello:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vmIWRDMtRpk/XfP4awDLAZI/AAAAAAAADZA/2o8J6Qk-7I82mDo-8oaBLmNWy79HhllHQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_4823.jpg

[choke]

The win on Sunday sell on Monday, even in Europe died decades ago. The Tour is a traveling weeks long trade show, nothing more. Nobody seriously believes Froome won because of his bike or what was on it.I would disagree. I've known several people who do believe that riders win because of the bike or group. Think of the explosion of Treks on the road when a certain American was racing....

[oldpotatoe]

Since the Campagnolo family doesn't want to make cheap group sets to subsidize the company and sell on crappy bikes, they need to be more focused.

I don't think gravel is that big in Europe and the high end in Japan/Europe are happy with Campy on high end bikes. I actually think the whole gravel thing is over blown. It's just a road.

It's family owned, so they can do what they want. Oddly, I find the arrogance refreshing.

-Yessir!! Like Rolex doesn't want to make a $79 electric watch.
-Yessir!! Japan is a YUGE market for Campagnolo..bigger than the US..
-HA, Yessir!! GROAD bikes, what a giggle.
-Agree..but, like Rapha and Glock and many others, people like to slam them.

:)

[Burnette]

I would disagree. I've known several people who do believe that riders win because of the bike or group. Think of the explosion of Treks on the road when a certain American was racing....

That was decades ago and the doping scandals thereafter nullified the tour trade show as a validator of anything other than the one who didn't get caught won.

If we want to talk of believing hype, believing Froome won because of his tires, saddle, frame or groupset is the epitome of it. As I stated earlier, Froome and Sky would have won on a Merida bicycle with 105 components.

[Burnette]

newest built gravel bike. i think i may have missed the marketing memos :hello:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vmIWRDMtRpk/XfP4awDLAZI/AAAAAAAADZA/2o8J6Qk-7I82mDo-8oaBLmNWy79HhllHQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_4823.jpg

Like much in life we can make do with what we have in cycling and other recreational activities. Your example is a good one but do you not believe that someone can buy an off the rack gravel bike geared to their likes and style and that too would be just a valid option?

[cash05458]

who knows really? I mean, maybe Campy doesn't think their market is via the gravel head folks...maybe the whole gravel thing will be seen as a joke 5 years on...maybe it won't either...but who knows...knocking campy for not jumping on the sram et al gravel bandwagon isn't necessarily a bad thing...

[Duende]

As already stated, Campy has a full Gravel gruppo. Only thing missing for some folks is a clutch rear derailleur.

So the debate here is really just about the need for a rear clutch. But is this really a necessity? Can’t say chain slap has been a game stopper for me, or that it’s a concern. Been riding my HO record gruppo for years now over wet and dry rough gravel terrain.

Sure, I would try a clutch if it came out, but I certainly don’t feel limited by campy’s current offerings. Not like I did when they didn’t have disc brakes... that’s for sure, because discs are a necessity imo for wet gravel descents.

Are clutches a good option for road? Is drag a concern still? Maybe these are considerations the Campy engineers are pondering.

[gdw]

This is a bit surprising to me, as I’m cobbling together a budget gravel bike to climb the dirt roads above Boulder and avoid traffic (e.g. Sunshine).

I live on a dirt road between Boulder and Nederland in an area that offers some amazing gravel riding but rarely see anyone on a gravel bike. Most of the folks venturing up here are pretty strong riders and are riding road or mountain bikes. I guess we need a coffee shop on Magnolia with a nice brick wall to lean your bike against to lure the cool kids up here so that I can see one of those gravel specific bikes in the flesh.:banana:

[jamesdak]

newest built gravel bike. i think i may have missed the marketing memos :hello:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vmIWRDMtRpk/XfP4awDLAZI/AAAAAAAADZA/2o8J6Qk-7I82mDo-8oaBLmNWy79HhllHQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_4823.jpg

Hey....isn't that the "racist" bike. ;)

[Plum Hill]

Campy will unveil a new E-bike gruppo on 4-1-2020.
Stay tuned.

[Spoker]

Having your weight on your FEET (NOT your saddle) lowers your center of gravity which increases traction and stability on loose surfaces. .
Sir Isaac Newton does not agree.

[CO_Hoya]

Yeah, most of the roads are fine for a road bike, but being able to ride on 38mm is nice.

And I’m certainly not a strong rider or cool kid, and I avoid the steeps on Magnolia. I do rest at Gold Hill Store though.

I live on a dirt road between Boulder and Nederland in an area that offers some amazing gravel riding but rarely see anyone on a gravel bike. Most of the folks venturing up here are pretty strong riders and are riding road or mountain bikes. I guess we need a coffee shop on Magnolia with a nice brick wall to lean your bike against to lure the cool kids up here so that I can see one of those gravel specific bikes in the flesh.:banana:

[tomato coupe]

I'd say, absolutely..Around here, a cycling mecca by any measure, the 'gravel' scene is still teeny, tiny..since the roads most traveled around here are wide shoulder, well maintained..really no reason to drive or ride to those few 'gravel' roads around here. 'Explosion'?? I wouldn't say that. YES, most road bikes I see have disc brakes but 'exploding gravel market'..?? not really.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I also live in the Republic, and the vast majority of my roadie friends have purchased gravel bikes in the past couple of years. One group regularly schedules weekend gravel rides, and the other is emphasizing gravel events this year (e.g. Steamboat) in lieu of Gran Fondos. It may just be a matter of semantics, but I'd say the gravel scene has exploded around Boulder.

[gdw]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I also live in the Republic, and the vast majority of my roadie friends have purchased gravel bikes in the past couple of years. One group regularly schedules weekend gravel rides, and the other is emphasizing gravel events this year (e.g. Steamboat) in lieu of Gran Fondos. It may just be a matter of semantics, but I'd say the gravel scene has exploded around Boulder.

Where do they ride? As I posted earlier I rarely see them on the dirt roads west of town and south of Boulder Canyon. One would think locals would be up here in force since you can ride over Flagstaff to access Magnolia Rd, the West Mag trails, Peak to Peak, Rollins Pass, the dirt roads around the gambling towns, etc easily. Do they drive to their rides?

[tomato coupe]

Where do they ride? As I posted earlier I rarely see them on the dirt roads west of town and south of Boulder Canyon. One would think locals would be up here in force since you can ride over Flagstaff to access Magnolia Rd, the West Mag trails, Peak to Peak, Rollins Pass, the dirt roads around the gambling towns, etc easily. Do they drive to their rides?

North of town ... half of the roads are unpaved. Check out Gravelmap.com.

[Burnette]

North of town ... half of the roads are unpaved. Check out Gravelmap.com.

What do you think are the main reasons why gravel has gained popularity in your kneck of the woods and the rest of the country?

[tomato coupe]

What do you think are the main reasons why gravel has gained popularity in your kneck of the woods and the rest of the country?

My cynical side says it might just be the latest fad, and everyone is reflexively jumping into it. But, a lot of people I know really like the environment and challenge of the gravel events and races.

[fignon's barber]

As already stated, Campy has a full Gravel gruppo. Only thing missing for some folks is a clutch rear derailleur.

So the debate here is really just about the need for a rear clutch. But is this really a necessity? Can’t say chain slap has been a game stopper for me, or that it’s a concern.


That's right! Remember, you don't get chain slap in the 53x11. Just put it in the Big Dog. Why do you think they call it "gravel grinding"?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I also live in the Republic, and the vast majority of my roadie friends have purchased gravel bikes in the past couple of years. One group regularly schedules weekend gravel rides, and the other is emphasizing gravel events this year (e.g. Steamboat) in lieu of Gran Fondos. It may just be a matter of semantics, but I'd say the gravel scene has exploded around Boulder.

Sure, ok, but I wouldn't say 'exploded'..Jim at Veccho's is selling a TON of Routt/Routt 45s but most are still ridden on asfelt roads, then a little dirt, then most back home on the road. His sale of fat tires doesn't match his sale of Routts. PLUS, yes, some gravel events(ie Steamboat-how long to drive there?), but the numbers in Gran Fondos and the various 'fun' rides..like Ride the Rockies, Elephant Roack, Tour of Colorado, etc..thousands of people..

YES, more people riding bikes on dirt roads a GOOD thing but this thread is about how 'Campagnolo' somehow missed the boat(better wake UP!!)..and altho the GRoad scene is getting bigger, it's very nich-ey and 'fad-ey feeling

I guess my other point is
the vast majority of my roadie friends have purchased gravel bikes in the past couple of years

Gee, put some 28s on that there road bike or 32s yer 'cross' bike and go ride a dirt road. Yes, marketing is alive and well in the republic. NOTHING personal, but 'coffee shop points' is a strong motivator.
I live on a dirt road between Boulder and Nederland in an area that offers some amazing gravel riding but rarely see anyone on a gravel bike. Most of the folks venturing up here are pretty strong riders and are riding road or mountain bikes. I guess we need a coffee shop on Magnolia with a nice brick wall to lean your bike against to lure the cool kids up here so that I can see one of those gravel specific bikes in the flesh.

:)

[oldpotatoe]

What do you think are the main reasons why gravel has gained popularity in your neck of the woods and the rest of the country?

Like fat bike 'trend', it's fun. And lotsa demand driven marketing that morphs into a GRoad bike seen at the coffee shop before that ride that may include a dirt road. I think a lot of cyclists gotta have the 'latest and greatest'. It's the first time in a while that it's a new 'platform', kinda like fat bikes.

I think it's a lot 'distracted drivers hit a cyclist' 'news' that once it happens the interweb is awash in it. It IS a problem but social media makes it 'grow' and become louder. I think around here is very safe.

I ride on dirt roads fairly often on my Moots with 28s..and the wash outs, the RUTS, geez, the rutted roads!...pretty dry, can be real dusty..I donno, not much fun IMHO. I doubt a GRoad bike would make it any more fun TO ME..
Doubt 1by, disc brakes, fat fork, fat ties, tubeless would open up the sky for me(yes, I have tried it)...

[Burnette]

Like fat bike 'trend', it's fun. And lotsa demand driven marketing that morphs into a GRoad bike seen at the coffee shop before that ride that may include a dirt road. I think a lot of cyclists gotta have the 'latest and greatest'. It's the first time in a while that it's a new 'platform', kinda like fat bikes.

I think it's a lot 'distracted drivers hit a cyclist' 'news' that once it happens the interweb is awash in it. It IS a problem but social media makes it 'grow' and become louder. I think around here is very safe.

I ride on dirt roads fairly often on my Moots with 28s..and the wash outs, the RUTS, geez, the rutted roads!...pretty dry, can be real dusty..I donno, not much fun IMHO. I doubt a GRoad bike would make it any more fun TO ME..
Doubt 1by, disc brakes, fat fork, fat ties, tubeless would open up the sky for me(yes, I have tried it)...

I hear ya Tator. I guess my question is where do we draw the line of compnany hype versus genuine consumer demand.

Why does it always have to be evil marketing and social media? Did AngryScientist build a bike like he did because he read something from a company, on Facebook or because he likes gravel riding himself? Even in this very thread you have members chiming in on how they dig it. Are they dupes or just people doing what they want, regardless of the hype?

I think it's important to make that distinction, people have chosen this path, fad or not and of course companies will pander to consumers, it's how they make money. But consumers were the driver.

Could they have made do with bikes they have? Maybe, but Veccho's and even Campy would shutter if people didn't replenish or buy new.

Did you really need Campy 12 speed or were you fine with 10 or 11? Is Campy 12 just more company hype because you can easily get by with what you have?

You make good points that I do agree with. When something new comes along there's an uptick in popularity and sakes because it's new.

Also true that, right or wrong, fear of the road is a huge factor. It's the number one reason I get from people who I talk to about going out riding. They just won't do it out of fear. I can see where, again, right or wrong, gravel gives them peace of mind.

I also agree with you that the danger on the road is overblown. I have been out there since '06 and had one accident, I let my guard down close to home, about forty yards away. But years and thousands of miles of maybe some close calls but the majority was just fun riding.

And the bike I have is like yours, it will take a wider tire. It's a cyclocross bike that I ride on the road too, just a tire swap.

But I could see that if I didn't have it and wanted a racier roader bike and one just for fire roads, I too would be a consumer buying a gravel bike. But I tell you it would have nothing do with hype or social media.

We have some great gravel trails around here. I bought my versatile bike in 2006.

[tomato coupe]

Sure, ok, but I wouldn't say 'exploded'..

As I stated, it just may be semantics.

but the numbers in Gran Fondos and the various 'fun' rides..like Ride the Rockies, Elephant Roack, Tour of Colorado, etc..thousands of people..

Clearly, there are still a lot of people riding the pavement, and those events will remain popular. That said, however, gravel riding has become a non-negligible subset of the roadie world, and these events are taking notice. For instance, the text on the homepage of the Tour of Colorado is "Organic. Grassroots. Gravel. Road. Tours." Elephant Rock has added two gravel routes to their menu of courses. Closer to home, the Buff Classic added a gravel route this year.

YES, more people riding bikes on dirt roads a GOOD thing but this thread is about how 'Campagnolo' somehow missed the boat(better wake UP!!)..and altho the GRoad scene is getting bigger, it's very nich-ey and 'fad-ey feeling.

Yeah, it might be a fad. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that way.

I guess my other point is

Gee, put some 28s on that there road bike or 32s yer 'cross' bike and go ride a dirt road. Yes, marketing is alive and well in the republic. NOTHING personal, but 'coffee shop points' is a strong motivator.

That's a really good option, and that's what I would have advocated a year ago. None of my road bikes were well suited, however, so I bought a gravel bike. I still ride my road bike with 25mm tires on gravel roads, but it doesn't really cut it on the nastier gravel roads or in a gravel race. My wife did what you're suggesting. She bought a new road bike that can accommodate 32mm slicks, and is happy as a clam.

[AngryScientist]

Did AngryScientist build a bike like he did because he read something from a company, on Facebook or because he likes gravel riding himself?

i built the bike that way because that is a set-up i like and what works for me. i think i can honestly say that my decision to build it this way was not influenced by any outside sources. i just like the simplicity of friction shifting, rim brakes and a simple mechanical drivetrain. there is nothing "deeper" than that for me. i just ride what i prefer and what works for me.

to respond to your earlier comment: sure, i think today's off the shelf gravel bikes are great and they work perfectly for lots of people.

whenever i ride with a group of people, most, like 98+ percent are on modern bikes and off the shelf builds. mostly shimano or sram, with shimano still holding the vast majority for my local pals. we always have fun. i dont hate anything, it's all good. riding bikes is fun :)

[b33]

I feel so silly for reading this thread.

Who cares??????????????

The great thing about cycling is that if you want the big boys (e.g., Trek and Specialized) you can go buy their stuff. Maybe you want something more boutique (e.g., firefly, speedvagen, Moots, Parlee). Are you really going to judge and say the other companies have "got to wake up." That is just a sampling . . of American companies.

As for Campy and their quality - go look at Ebay or here on paceline and find Record 10 group sets and how many listings and what they sell for - that's a group that is, at best, a decade old. Now look at 7800 or Red - then make sure to take in the variable for market share. Campy tops out . . . by an order of magnitude.

Who. Cares.

[jtbadge]

Just because it's overpriced doesn't mean it's good.

[b33]

Just because it's overpriced doesn't mean it's good.


So what you're saying is that every campy owner is a fool who overpays and the fact that the stuff still works after a decade is . . . what . . .because Campy owners don't ride? Not sure what you're saying there . . . campy owners are double fools.

[jtbadge]

So what you're saying is that every campy owner is a fool who overpays and the fact that the stuff still works after a decade is . . . what . . .because Campy owners don't ride? Not sure what you're saying there . . . campy owners are double fools.

No, I'm saying that nostalgia is a toxic impulse. 11 speed is demonstrably better, and again for 12.

[b33]

No, I'm saying that nostalgia is a toxic impulse. 11 speed is demonstrably better, and again for 12.

Still doesn't reconcile. By the logic you just stated Red and 7800 should be fetching as equal of a price. It doesn't.

The early years of 11 speed fetches good prices and are still largely in the market - 7900 by comparison does not.

Sorry, friend, doesn't make sense.

[buddybikes]

Removing a campy crank is a pain in the butt.

[tomato coupe]

Removing a campy crank is a pain in the butt.

Seems pretty simple to me. Remove a bolt ... pull arms off ... done.

[AngryScientist]

Seems pretty simple to me. Remove a bolt ... pull arms off ... done.

haha, agree.

also, how does "ease of crankset removal" have anything to do with the topic ?

[Burnette]

i built the bike that way because that is a set-up i like and what works for me. i think i can honestly say that my decision to build it this way was not influenced by any outside sources. i just like the simplicity of friction shifting, rim brakes and a simple mechanical drivetrain. there is nothing "deeper" than that for me. i just ride what i prefer and what works for me.

to respond to your earlier comment: sure, i think today's off the shelf gravel bikes are great and they work perfectly for lots of people.

whenever i ride with a group of people, most, like 98+ percent are on modern bikes and off the shelf builds. mostly shimano or sram, with shimano still holding the vast majority for my local pals. we always have fun. i dont hate anything, it's all good. riding bikes is fun :)

Thanks for the reply. I thought it important to hear from those who chose to buy or build gravel capable bikes as to why they had done so.

I see it a disparaging disservice to paint all those who chose this type of bike as people who just fell for company hype.

There's so many members here who have shared their interests in gravel. Companies didn't create it but they are smart to offer products to the niche consumers created.

[Burnette]

Still doesn't reconcile. By the logic you just stated Red and 7800 should be fetching as equal of a price. It doesn't.

The early years of 11 speed fetches good prices and are still largely in the market - 7900 by comparison does not.

Sorry, friend, doesn't make sense.

Honest question, Campy sells nowhere near the quantities of Shimano and SRAM, could it be that simple supply and demand also plays a factor here? Shimano especially and SRAM to a degree have saturated the market, it was cheaper new and it's everywhere. Stands to reason it would be cheaper used.

Another question, wasn't 10 and 11 speed fine. Is 12 speed just company hyped product, just a way to get you to buy new because people have to have the latest and greatest?

[b33]

Honest question, Campy sells nowhere near the quantities of Shimano and SRAM, could it be that simple supply and demand also plays a factor here? Shimano especially and SRAM to a degree have saturated the market, it was cheaper new and it's everywhere. Stands to reason it would be cheaper used.


Campy 10 speed groupsets for sale one Ebay about 14. Ace 7900 and 7800 about half a dozen. Remember, you said that Shimano saturated the market.

Let's try it this way. BMW 3 series average MSRP 40k - Toyota Tacoma average MSPR $26k.

Sales figures - BMW 3 series 60k - Tacoma 160k. Now good look at used prices. Tacoma holds it value way, way, way better. Plus way more many older models for a good price . . . BMW not so much.

Tacoma has saturated the market so why not fall in value like 7800 and 7900? Because Tacoma is well built and lasts with little maintenance. Remember, Campy levers can be totally rebuilt . . . Shimano not so much.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of 9 speed being good enough.

[Hellgate]

Removing a campy crank is a pain in the butt.Why?

[shinomaster]

Why?

It's not, unless you have a powertorque.

[bfd]

Why?

He probably has a power torque (pt) crankset, which I believe requires a special puller to remove the crank. In contrast, an ultra torque (ut) crankset is basically what someone previously said “remove the bolt, pull crankset apart.” Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

[Hellgate]

It's not, unless you have a powertorque.Nope, old school SR, Record 10, and SR11.

[Burnette]

Campy 10 speed groupsets for sale one Ebay about 14. Ace 7900 and 7800 about half a dozen. Remember, you said that Shimano saturated the market.

Let's try it this way. BMW 3 series average MSRP 40k - Toyota Tacoma average MSPR $26k.

Sales figures - BMW 3 series 60k - Tacoma 160k. Now good look at used prices. Tacoma holds it value way, way, way better. Plus way more many older models for a good price . . . BMW not so much.

Tacoma has saturated the market so why not fall in value like 7800 and 7900? Because Tacoma is well built and lasts with little maintenance. Remember, Campy levers can be totally rebuilt . . . Shimano not so much.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of 9 speed being good enough.

Bad analogy. A Tacoma to Bimmers does not equate here though. The numbers are way off and it's not an exact comparison. A truck and a lux auto are in different segments and one is more often leased.


The shear scale that Shimano and SRAM have in the bicycle market, mainly from OE sales but on component sales too far exceeds the volume that Campy does by a huger margin. And at a cheaper price point. So it's no surprise to see lower used prices, it's simple supply and demand.

And if you won't discuss 9 speed, I'll ask again, wasn't 10 and even 11 speed not only good enough, but great? Is 12 speed just company hyped product, just a way to get you to buy new because people have to have the latest and greatest?

[robertbb]

No, I'm saying that nostalgia is a toxic impulse. 11 speed is demonstrably better, and again for 12.

Agree that Campy 11 (especially Rev2, HO) is better than Campy 10, but I honestly don't see how Campy 12 is any better than 11. Except maybe for the existence of the sub-compact crank.

Anyway, that's OT.

[bfd]

Agree that Campy 11 (especially Rev2, HO) is better than Campy 10, but I honestly don't see how Campy 12 is any better than 11. Except maybe for the existence of the sub-compact crank.

Anyway, that's OT.

I disagree. The Campy 12 sub-compact crank has 48/32 rings and if you combine it with the 11-34 cassette, you have gravel bike type gearing.

One question I have is whether the Campy sub-compact crank bcd will allow for smaller rings like 46/30 or even lower? Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

It's not, unless you have a powertorque.

Oh geez, waiting for the 'but PowerTorque' thread...once upon a time, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...wait, wake up..you needed a crank puller to get a crank off. With PowerTorque you need a crank puller..I have 2, not expensive and easy to use..YO!!
I disagree. The Campy 12 sub-compact crank has 48/32 rings and if you combine it with the 11-34 cassette, you have gravel bike type gearing.


Gad ZOOKS, after 145 posts, we have come full circle..Campagnolo HAS woken up ladies and gentlemen!!
Lock this sucka!!

Kidding...don't lock, great discussion on this cold, snowy day. :)

[colker]

Thanks for the reply. I thought it important to hear from those who chose to buy or build gravel capable bikes as to why they had done so.

I see it a disparaging disservice to paint all those who chose this type of bike as people who just fell for company hype.

There's so many members here who have shared their interests in gravel. Companies didn't create it but they are smart to offer products to the niche consumers created.

No one ever said riding a bike off road is falling for hype. No one ever said buying anything to have it easier off road is falling for hype. Get what you need or get what you can buy.
Some of the reasoning out there makes no sense. "1x is simpler"... no, it´s not. There isn´t anything as simple on a bike as a front derrailleur. A clutch rear derrailleur is complicated. 1x is a necessity when you want a fat tire and short chainstays. Because then there is no space for a front derr. If that´s not the case a 2x set up gives you versatility. If absolute simplicity is the case ride a single speed. 12speed cassetes + short chainstays is not simple. If you want a bike that can ride anywhere just get the best gear range possible. Make it sturdy.

[Dave]

12 speed works fine with 48/32 crank, 11-34 cassette and 405mm chainstays. Campy says don't use the big/big or little/little, but nothing bad will happen if you do. If I accidentally get into either, I correct the problem, quickly.

I should add that the front shifting is the best ever and the new maximum smoothness cables fixed the cable friction problem I was having with the internally routed cables on my Colnago.

[oldpotatoe]

12 speed works fine with 48/32 crank, 11-34 cassette and 405mm chainstays. Campy says don't use the big/big or little/little, but nothing bad will happen if you do.

GREAT SCOTT!!, Campag 2by, Campag disc brakes and short chainstays..dogs and cats living together!!....(forehead slap)....
Reality, what a concept.......:)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+doctor+brown+saying+%27great+scott% 27+in+movie%2c+Back+to+the+Future%27&&view=detail&mid=747C7341210939B449D0747C7341210939B449D0&rvsmid=1B976C465B330BA754381B976C465B330BA75438&FORM=VDQVAP

[Burnette]

No one ever said riding a bike off road is falling for hype. No one ever said buying anything to have it easier off road is falling for hype. Get what you need or get what you can buy.
Some of the reasoning out there makes no sense. "1x is simpler"... no, it´s not. There isn´t anything as simple on a bike as a front derrailleur. A clutch rear derrailleur is complicated. 1x is a necessity when you want a fat tire and short chainstays. Because then there is no space for a front derr. If that´s not the case a 2x set up gives you versatility. If absolute simplicity is the case ride a single speed. 12speed cassetes + short chainstays is not simple. If you want a bike that can ride anywhere just get the best gear range possible. Make it sturdy.

There were two that brought up the company hype thing but let's drop that as I believe it has been a notion proved false.

I'm not a defender of 1X, don't own it and never ridden it. I agree, for my bit of gravel I haven't had issue with a triple!

But my FD currently does need some adjusting coincidentally.

You say 1X is simple, not having a FD at all seems simpler. Whether it's necessary path is a different question. It could be that people who ride in harsher terrain and worry about chain drop or who just like the simplicity of 1X chose that path. Single speeds would be tough on really steep climbs.

From what I've read the rear clutch derailleur does add some amount of drag but does keep the chain taught. Again, I guess it's up the buyers to weight the value in that.

To come full circle and what other posters here have already said, the gravel market, though growing isn't big enough for Campy to invest further than it has. If gravel ever does reach higher volumes all makes will most definitely have more offerings, Campy included.

[b33]

Bad analogy. A Tacoma to Bimmers does not equate here though. The numbers are way off and it's not an exact comparison. A truck and a lux auto are in different segments and one is more often leased.


The shear scale that Shimano and SRAM have in the bicycle market, mainly from OE sales but on component sales too far exceeds the volume that Campy does by a huger margin. And at a cheaper price point. So it's no surprise to see lower used prices, it's simple supply and demand.


I'm not giving you an analogy. I'm giving you a rules and principles of economics. Resale value of used items, cars or bike parts, are determined on two large variables. How dependable is it as a used item and if I as the new owner run into problems how easy is it to fix. Toyata, Honda clearly hold their value over BMW - don't want to use Tacoma, fine use Camry. It still all holds true.

Do the math, Shimano and SRAM have a larger market - so if they do, why then are there, factually, LESS items for sale? Honda and Toyota sell way more than BMW - so why them do they hold their value better - because they are dependable and easy to fix - market share is a variable but not nearly as much as the previous two I mentioned. The math works out - it's not a coincidence that if my 10 speed record shifter has an issue I can send it to oldpotatoe and get it back good as new (with the exception of cosmetic blemishes). 7800, 7900 or Red or whatever - it has an issue it's done. Also, ever seen a set of Red calipers after two years use - YUCK.

[Burnette]

I'm not giving you an analogy. I'm giving you a rules and principles of economics. Resale value of used items, cars or bike parts, are determined on two large variables. How dependable is it as a used item and if I as the new owner run into problems how easy is it to fix. Toyata, Honda clearly hold their value over BMW - don't want to use Tacoma, fine use Camry. It still all holds true.

Do the math, Shimano and SRAM have a larger market - so if they do, why then are there, factually, LESS items for sale? Honda and Toyota sell way more than BMW - so why them do they hold their value better - because they are dependable and easy to fix - market share is a variable but not nearly as much as the previous two I mentioned. The math works out - it's not a coincidence that if my 10 speed record shifter has an issue I can send it to oldpotatoe and get it back good as new (with the exception of cosmetic blemishes). 7800, 7900 or Red or whatever - it has an issue it's done. Also, ever seen a set of Red calipers after two years use - YUCK.

Cars are my jam and the numbers and models in your analogy are wrong. We would go way OT for me to explain why BMWs tank used.

The scale at which Shimano and SRAM sells and again, most at a lower price point guarantees lesser value on the secondary market. Add to that, Shimano and SRAM do huge off season sales where they dump inventory which further erodes prices. They aren't baubles, they are components.

And as for as the new Campy 12 goes, looks are subjective, from my perspective it looks just as ugly as the rest, black blobs and lumps. That would have zero effect on my buying decision though, it would look fine on a modern bike and I would buy it if I wanted it.

[jamesdak]

I'm not giving you an analogy. I'm giving you a rules and principles of economics. Resale value of used items, cars or bike parts, are determined on two large variables. How dependable is it as a used item and if I as the new owner run into problems how easy is it to fix. Toyata, Honda clearly hold their value over BMW - don't want to use Tacoma, fine use Camry. It still all holds true.

Do the math, Shimano and SRAM have a larger market - so if they do, why then are there, factually, LESS items for sale? Honda and Toyota sell way more than BMW - so why them do they hold their value better - because they are dependable and easy to fix - market share is a variable but not nearly as much as the previous two I mentioned. The math works out - it's not a coincidence that if my 10 speed record shifter has an issue I can send it to oldpotatoe and get it back good as new (with the exception of cosmetic blemishes). 7800, 7900 or Red or whatever - it has an issue it's done. Also, ever seen a set of Red calipers after two years use - YUCK.

Way off topic but I get so sick of seeing folks slam Bimmers and praise Honda's. I've spent $0 on my BMW this year for repairs. My son has spent double his annual car payment on repairs to his Honda. I've owned several BMW's and have found them to be nothing but totally reliable. Anyway....back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

[b33]

Way off topic but I get so sick of seeing folks slam Bimmers and praise Honda's. I've spent $0 on my BMW this year for repairs.

I'm actually a Beemer fan - had a 2003 530 that I sold just last summer with 192k on the clock. Car never ever let me down (well except for the seat motors and they were all janked), but I also stayed on top of maintenance and it cost me $$$. I now have a E350 inline 6 Benz, just like the 530 and love that car. It's not that BMW is bad or Benz or whatever, it's that it's super expensive compared to a Honda. I once had an 86 civic in college - purchased it for $3k and drove it for 3 years and changed the tires once, changed the oil once and changed the wipers once - it also got hit twice and insurance repaired the panels. After 3 years sold it for . . . $3K.

I'm positive someone could have purchased a Record 10 groupset (sans chain and cables) 3 years ago, ridden it and sold it now for the same price they purchased it for 3 years ago. . . . I would not take that bet with 7800 and Red.

[merckx]

carry on.

[b33]

Cars are my jam and the numbers and models in your analogy are wrong. We would go way OT for me to explain why BMWs tank used.

The scale at which Shimano and SRAM sells and again, most at a lower price point guarantees lesser value on the secondary market. Add to that, Shimano and SRAM do huge off season sales where they dump inventory which further erodes prices. They aren't baubles, they are components.


None of what you said negates the factual points I made. Here is a real simple question - where is quantity of 7800 used sets you speak of?

[Burnette]

None of what you said negates the factual points I made. Here is a real simple question - where is quantity of 7800 used sets you speak of?

Analogy did not compute, trucks and Binmers have nothing to do with Shi/SRA/Cam, their marker share and the bicycling industry at all.

The simple answer is that Shimano and SRAM own OE and aftermarket sales and have for quite some time and by a huge margin. The shear amount of product that they have put on bikes, sold as components and dumped at years end is simply astounding.

The used market is more a barometer of amount of supply, there's just so much Shimano and SRAM out there. Seriously. And at big discounts even when new depending on time of year and product cycle. Of course they hold no value long term.

[mcteague]

I'm actually a Beemer fan - had a 2003 530 that I sold just last summer with 192k on the clock. Car never ever let me down (well except for the seat motors and they were all janked), but I also stayed on top of maintenance and it cost me $$$. I now have a E350 inline 6 Benz, just like the 530 and love that car. It's not that BMW is bad or Benz or whatever, it's that it's super expensive compared to a Honda. I once had an 86 civic in college - purchased it for $3k and drove it for 3 years and changed the tires once, changed the oil once and changed the wipers once - it also got hit twice and insurance repaired the panels. After 3 years sold it for . . . $3K.

I'm positive someone could have purchased a Record 10 groupset (sans chain and cables) 3 years ago, ridden it and sold it now for the same price they purchased it for 3 years ago. . . . I would not take that bet with 7800 and Red.

Beemers are BMW motorcycles, the cars are Bimmers. :no:

Tim

[KJMUNC]

Campy’s strategy isn’t 1st to market to meet the newest fad. They invest in what they feel are innovative areas and tend to make big leaps that still seem slow to most, but generally when they do it, it’s done right. Not right/wrong, just a different choice and culture. If don’t think they’re too worried about road sales drying up due to gravel....They’ll prob release something that quasi-addresses the need, but I’d rather see them keep innovating for the road.

[nmrt]

+1
It is high time someone mentioned this! The world needs education.
:)

Beemers are BMW motorcycles, the cars are Bimmers. :no:

Tim

[tomato coupe]

Beemers are BMW motorcycles, the cars are Bimmers. :no:

Is Bimmer pronounced the same as Beemer?

[rain dogs]

Is Bimmer pronounced the same as Beemer?

I think it's pronounced bummer.... but with an umlaut. of course.

[Blue Jays]

My only hope with my beloved Campagnolo is they "hold the line" and simply refine and improve 12-speed without hopping to 14-speed.
I will bet virtually any amount of money that Campagnolo will *never* create or promote a new 13-speed groupset. That would flop.

[m_sasso]

13 is a lucky number in Italy and Italian, fare tredici ("to do 13") means hit the jackpot. 17, diciassette, life is over, is a long way off.

[b33]

+1
It is high time someone mentioned this! The world needs education.
:)

This is actually a thing . . . in your world.

[b33]

Analogy did not compute, trucks and Binmers have nothing to do with Shi/SRA/Cam, their marker share and the bicycling industry at all.

The simple answer is that Shimano and SRAM own OE and aftermarket sales and have for quite some time and by a huge margin. The shear amount of product that they have put on bikes, sold as components and dumped at years end is simply astounding.

The used market is more a barometer of amount of supply, there's just so much Shimano and SRAM out there. Seriously. And at big discounts even when new depending on time of year and product cycle. Of course they hold no value long term.

You use analogy in place of math, Trucks do not equal brands - feel free to use BMW, Benz (or is it BENSSS for the motorcycles) or Caddy (is it Caddie) or whatever brand you want. Go for it - Honda and Toyota in the after market reign supreme.. You chose not to because you can't. You are the one who said they hold value over time. . . . don't tell me, show me. I showed you how Campy had little market share when new but massive market share AND price in after market. Should I bold to make my point?

Again, by your logic Shimano and SRAM sell way more in the after-market to Campy - regardless of price, please show me where, since a decade ago, they sell more than Campy.

The entire internet is yours. As Andrew Yang said, please use Math and not things like Huge, the best, the most, the bestests, huge margin . . . math. . . .again, we're talking aftermarket where quality and service counts.

[shinomaster]

Oh geez, waiting for the 'but PowerTorque' thread...once upon a time, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...wait, wake up..you needed a crank puller to get a crank off. With PowerTorque you need a crank puller..I have 2, not expensive and easy to use..YO!! :)


Thanks for that, I have a crank puller for my square taper cranks but not the Power torque crank on my CX bike which is always loose. Either the shop here is completely incompetent (possibly), or it's a bum crank. All I know is that they told me it's a pain to remove and they gouged up the carbon arms when doing so. I like Ultra-torque better because you just need a big wrench. The fact that they did away with PT tells me something.

[Clancy]

This is actually a thing . . . in your world.

Beemer vs Bimmer, yes. At least since the mid-70’s when I started riding BMW motorcycles. I always thought it was silly, but there are a LOT of BMW fans around the world and amongst them, these terms are used commonly.

I just say BMW.....I mean after all it’s a BMW

And Holy Tread Drift Batman did this one ever go off topic

[Burnette]

You use analogy in place of math, Trucks do not equal brands - feel free to use BMW, Benz (or is it BENSSS for the motorcycles) or Caddy (is it Caddie) or whatever brand you want. Go for it - Honda and Toyota in the after market reign supreme.. You chose not to because you can't. You are the one who said they hold value over time. . . . don't tell me, show me. I showed you how Campy had little market share when new but massive market share AND price in after market. Should I bold to make my point?

Again, by your logic Shimano and SRAM sell way more in the after-market to Campy - regardless of price, please show me where, since a decade ago, they sell more than Campy.

The entire internet is yours. As Andrew Yang said, please use Math and not things like Huge, the best, the most, the bestests, huge margin . . . math. . . .again, we're talking aftermarket where quality and service counts.

In bold above, I said none of that.

The Toyota/BMW analogy was wrong on many fronts and way OT, having zero to do with the thread.. But I'm more than happy to leave you in your beliefs in it. You seem distraught by it and nobody wants that. Certainly not me.

Campy has it's place, it's just a fact that volume sales isn't it compared to the orher two.

That's not a dig at Campy either, they have carved out a nice slice of the pie. The fact that it is smaller slice doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's just a fact of the market.

And I agree with others that it is wise for Campy to be more selective in offerings. And too it's been pointed out that you can do Campy and gravel. As others have put forth, it looks like it comes down to whether a clutch rear derailleur and maybe even 1X is important to people. Time will tell.

[Jef58]

Campagnolo is kind of in a sweet spot as a company. Without getting to big, they make very high performance components and wheels. They do have to be careful not to invest in products that fall out of their core beliefs as a company. As far as what they do good, my 9 speed shifters have been rebuilt twice and converted to 10 speed. They shift as well now as they did then. That appeals to me as a consumer knowing that I can keep this stuff as long as parts are available. I don't care about aesthetics as much as function and sustainability. Every Campagnolo item I have between wheels and components have been flawless. So whatever they are doing, keep it up.

[b33]

In bold above, I said none of that.

The Toyota/BMW analogy was wrong on many fronts and way OT, having zero to do with the thread.. But I'm more than happy to leave you in your beliefs in it. You seem distraught by it and nobody wants that. Certainly not me.


When I show Toyota / BMW after marketplace as an example. That is economics.

When you say "Shimano has way more massive volume . . . ." that is economics (which, I agree and which, by the way completely support the next point).

When I show you that Campy 10 speed has, factually, more volume in the used marketplace than 7800 . . . .that is economics.

When you say "it's OT" "Cars are my jam" "you seem distraught" you are pontificating.

Just because you have more post counts than me doesn't mean you carry more sway nor does it mean you are the owner of facts.

Unless you can explain, in simple econ, why 7800, which was sold in far more volume, now has significantly less after market volume then I will hold onto Occam's Razor and what I know to be true - it is because Campy 10 speed can be repaired for not much money while 7800 can not.

I feel like I'm talking to the leader of the free world about windmills. SMH.

[Burnette]

So what you are saying is you are unable to supply math. Got it. My beliefs, something you brought up, are indeed very OT.

No, you went on a tangent about cars and that's OT and as far as the numbers go, as you say it's on the internet.

Again, it's not a knock that Campy sells less and it doesn't mean they are bad or low quality. They are not. It does show you the scale though that Shimano and SRAM sell in comparison. That shear size of scale effects new and used sales. That is all it is:

McMahon: What is SRAM's market share?

SRAM's Day: Shimano is about 2 billion in sales in the bike industry: we're about 700 million.

McMahon: is Campagnolo a competitive factor?

SRAM's Day: Not really a competitive factor. They are really a great brand, a classic brand. They're probably about 100 million in sales, with 60 million if that in wheels and 40 million in drivetrain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/sram-bicycle-components-company-chicago-tour-interview-2018-3

The bicycle components market is a tough one to nail down, what with the complexity of users versus complete bike sales, and OEM versus aftermarket sales, but my analysis indicates that the total is roughly 4 billion annually, of which Shimano is half and SRAM is just shy if 20%.. Nobody else is anywhere close.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jimvinoski/2019/09/11/this-us-bike-parts-maker-came-out-of-nowhere-to-take-on-the-industry-giants/amp/

And all of this jibes with Tater's assessment earlier in the thread. It doesn't mean Campy isn't a viable company, they indeed are. It doesn't mean they are bad or are of low quality. They certainly aren't. They go toe to toe with the giant that is Shimano and do well in the road arena. It's just the scales that they sell at are vastly different. And doing the math, the shear amount if Shimano and SRAM out there compared to Campy is indeed huge.

Again, as has already been expressed by others in the thread, and I agree with it, it was wise for Campy not to chase fast growing niches.

I'm convinced that for the terrain I ride, a clutch derailleur and 1X wouldn't be beneficial enough to spend money to try it. But I'm also aware that some people obviously do see the pluses and I think it's great that they have choices if that's what they want.

[Clancy]

An excellent and informative answer.

[oldpotatoe]

Again, as has already been expressed by others in the thread, and I agree with it, it was wise for Campy not to chase fast growing niches.

They tried that with MTB and almost went under because of it. Valentino sold everything "Campagnolo" except the bike stuff(like magnesium castings of aircraft landing gear, among others)...BUT, as I and others have mentioned. Campag DOES make 'GRoad' stuff..Chorus and some Potenza stuff, reallyn excellent disc brakes, mid compact cranks, medium cage rear ders..cogsets that go to 32......mix and match..

BTW-How many aluminum rim, disc brake wheelsets does zipp(sram) make?

How about shimano wheels? How many from a few years ago 'go to 11'?

When shimano finally goes all in on road and GRoad 12s..how many shimano 11s wheels will be able to be converted?

How many shimano wheels can be converted to a xd driver?

Gotta a frame with 2 inch tires on it?..can't use a front der? a niche, w/i a niche, w/i a niche, w/i a...you get the idea...Doubt Campag would make a dedicated 1by anything for that teeny, tiny, itsy bitsy, market.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for that, I have a crank puller for my square taper cranks but not the Power torque crank on my CX bike which is always loose. Either the shop here is completely incompetent (possibly), or it's a bum crank. All I know is that they told me it's a pain to remove and they gouged up the carbon arms when doing so. I like Ultra-torque better because you just need a big wrench. The fact that they did away with PT tells me something.

I prefer UT as well..one wrench, of course BUT..sounds like your PT crank was installed 'poorly', then ridden and the spline part of the crank became wallowed some..like older ST used to..Call Campag and ask about warranty..number below or email Jerry..Original owner? Still have the wee tracking sticker on it. Bought NOT from 'some' online/MO place?

ott@campagnolona.com

Monday(:eek:)

I think they went back to UT because it's cheaper to make...Easier to bond spindles to cranks with machined 'hirth' ends rather than trying to machine a splined crank insert.

[b33]

No, you went on a tangent about cars and that's OT and as far as the numbers go, as you say it's on the internet..

tangent - an abrupt change of course . . . . I supplied an example. That example notwithstanding you have still failed to explain the lack of after market 7800 when compared to the 4 times availability of record 10. The massive marketshare of 7800 NIB sales or OEM sales over Record 10 proves my point . . . Campy builds a superior product when service is taking into consideration and it is shown in the age, mileage, use and lively after marketplace of their components. . . much like Toyota over BMW or BMW over Austin Martin or Austin Martin over MG . . . . where did all those 7800 groupsets go, did they just disappear after their shelf date? No, they were thrown away because they aren't reparable.

I feel dumber for having read and participated in this thread,

[Burnette]

tangent - an abrupt change of course . . . . I supplied an example. That example notwithstanding you have still failed to explain the lack of after market 7800 when compared to the 4 times availability of record 10. The massive marketshare of 7800 NIB sales or OEM sales over Record 10 proves my point . . . Campy builds a superior product when service is taking into consideration and it is shown in the age, mileage, use and lively after marketplace of their components. . . much like Toyota over BMW or BMW over Austin Martin or Austin Martin over MG . . . . where did all those 7800 groupsets go, did they just disappear after their shelf date? No, they were thrown away because they aren't reparable.

I feel dumber for having read and participated in this thread,

You should have just said what you believed instead of all the analogies. Numbers were supplied, so let's move on.

The thread was whether Campy should spend the money in a fast growing niche.