Holland Exogrid vs. Traditional Ti?

[exapkib]

My continual searching for a titanium frame has turned up some interesting options. Most curious among them is a lead on a Holland Exogrid frameset.

Searching in the usual spots, I have not turned up very much information about people's experiences with these bikes. "Professional" reviews of the frames seem to focus primarily on how expensive the frames are. A few people clearly love them. Maybe it's just a case of having a very small number of bikes on the road?

Does anybody have any real-world experience on these frames? Comments about ride qualities? It's in the same price range as the used Ti from the major players (Moots, Eriksen, etc.)--should I be thinking seriously about this? I typically shy away from mixed material frames (not because of any personal experience, just for no reason at all), but this does not seem to be your dad's mixed material frame . . .

Any thoughts? Experiences? Thanks!

[Matthew]

Pretty sure there's one or two people here that have one. Anything I've ever read gave a pretty glowing review of the ride and craftsmanship. And they are definitely unique and beautiful.

[RedRider]

Think of all the good things you've heard about multi material frames, carbon/ti, such as the Serotta Ottrott, Seven Odonata, etc. Then supercharge it, put larger wheels on it, lower it and but a big wing on the back. That's the Holland Exogrid!

[exapkib]

Pretty sure there's one or two people here that have one. Anything I've ever read gave a pretty glowing review of the ride and craftsmanship. And they are definitely unique and beautiful.

Unique and beautiful, but is it all flash, or is it the missing link? Not having seen one in person, are these frames too flashy for one drawn to the understated aesthetics of a titanium frame?

Red Rider's comment above put a smile on my face, but it also makes me wary--how does this frame actually compare to the other high-zoot missed material frames out there?

[buddybikes]

He's been doing it for sometime now, so that tells you something.

[Matthew]

I doubt it's all flash. But I've never ridden one. If it fits and is in good shape and for a decent price I say go for it. If you don't like it I'm sure you could sell it here. Guessing you'll love it though.

[happycampyer]

Back in the mid 2000’s, I was debating between a Titus Exogrid Racer-X and a Moots YBB, and ended up getting the Moots. The Titus frames were highly regarded, and I think owners of Titus Exogrid bikes lamented Titus’ demise.

Most accounts regarding frames made of the material are positive. My guess is that its popularity has been limited because a builder needs to license the tubing (used to be a company called Vyatech). Pretty sure Dean and Holland offer frames made of Exogrid tubing—not sure of anyone else (other than baseball bats, etc.). The trend for small builders that build carbon-ti bikes (Seven, Firefly, etc.) seems to be to try to have as much control over their tubing as possible.

Not sure any of that helps answer your question...

[mhespenheide]

If you haven't seen these threads:
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=229835&highlight=exogrid
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=128807&highlight=exogrid

Perhaps reach out to Jeff N. if he doesn't comment here; he's had the most experience of other high-end bikes to compare it to.

[alancw3]

from what I have heard it is almost like a cult following with the exogrid bikes. I have my doubts performance wise but they sure do look good!

[roguedog]

I know a few folks on here have owned an Exogrid on here.

I met them at one of the bike shows and they were really nice folks. Holland has been doing Ti for a long long time. Have you also noticed that the forks on his Carbon frames are done w/ Mike Lopez? I think Holland's experience with Ti and building bikes says there's something real there.

Also, I think there are lots of folks in the San Diego area who can't say enough about his work. When I attended a bike camp in San Deigo, one of the coaches had one and said nothing but good things about the bike and about the experience/builder.

I don't know if they still have this program but when I met them at the show, they said if you were in the area to give them a ring and they could set up a demo ride. Not sure if you're anywhere close but that might be a worthy trip before plunking down some $.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Unless you really have "a thing" for mixed material bikes, I would just stick with Ti or carbon bike. IMHO, the Holland exogrid is just a carbon bike with flashy Ti lugs. If that floats yer boat great, but I'd rather have an all carbon or all Ti bike.

I imagine cleaning the dirt out of all those pockets isn't too fun.

YMMV.

[Burnette]

I can't speak for the frame but I can for the man behind it, Bill Holland.

I went to NAHBS Charlotte 2014 and met some great people. Nate Zukas and his wife of Zukas Cycles, Kristofer Henry of 44 Bikes, Boyd of Boyd Cycling, Bob Holland and many others. It was like bicycle Comicon for me and I really enjoyed it.

Bill Holland spoke to me at length about his company, his passion, his history and his bikes. He is sharp on all fronts and if he was down the street from me I'm sure I would have a Holland. Positive sharp people are a draw and he's patient and helpful too. His best advice was to ride more than one type back to back, which at home headquarters he can accommodate.

For me I'm as cynical as they come and believe that the whole package, frame geo, saddle, bars, seat, pedals, position, wheels and tires are the majority of feel right there.

I would get a mixed material bike mainly for vanity, they look cool as hell IMO. I like the Holland Exogrid, the Firefly Riad Ti/Carbon, Zukas Cyckes is doing aluminum and carbon and Rob English is doing steel and carbon. I like them all but for me it's more for when I'm off the bike.

Once I'm on it and a few miles into a ride nothing much matters if the package I noted above is right.

[kookmyers]

Unless you really have "a thing" for mixed material bikes, I would just stick with Ti or carbon bike. IMHO, the Holland exogrid is just a carbon bike with flashy Ti lugs. If that floats yer boat great, but I'd rather have an all carbon or all Ti bike.

I imagine cleaning the dirt out of all those pockets isn't too fun.

YMMV.

There aren’t any “pockets”. The diamonds are flush with the Ti.

[SoCalSteve]

My continual searching for a titanium frame has turned up some interesting options. Most curious among them is a lead on a Holland Exogrid frameset.

Searching in the usual spots, I have not turned up very much information about people's experiences with these bikes. "Professional" reviews of the frames seem to focus primarily on how expensive the frames are. A few people clearly love them. Maybe it's just a case of having a very small number of bikes on the road?

Does anybody have any real-world experience on these frames? Comments about ride qualities? It's in the same price range as the used Ti from the major players (Moots, Eriksen, etc.)--should I be thinking seriously about this? I typically shy away from mixed material frames (not because of any personal experience, just for no reason at all), but this does not seem to be your dad's mixed material frame . . .

Any thoughts? Experiences? Thanks!

Reach out to Jeff N. He is a huge fan of Bill Holland and Joe Bell. He has lots of real world experience with the bike.

[Clean39T]

I think it all starts with what experience you are looking to add that differs from your Yamaguchi - which I assume you aren't contemplating selling..

The Exogrid, especially with a Mike Lopez fork, is an incredible machine. However, the ride is likely to be tuned to match that of your Yamaguchi - i.e., to ride like an excellent classic road bike - and it is unlikely to be all that much lighter (probably 1-1.5lbs I'm guessing).

So, if you are interested in just adding another exceptional classic road bike, it would be a good choice to consider - assuming the fit and price is right.

But if you want to experience something truly different from your Yamaguchi, I'd look elsewhere.

Fat-tire options - maybe you want something that takes 650x42-48 or even just 700x32-35?

Light climber - maybe you want to enjoy a 14-15lb bike on the long climbs in your area?

Modern all-rounder - maybe you want something that is light/fast and capable of taking 28-30c tires on aero wheels with integrated hydro discs and electronic shifting?

With moderate hunting, I'm guessing you could acquire any of those for the cost of the Holland. It just depends on what you want, and how you want to add to your riding experience.

For me, at this point in my cycling experience, adding another bike that is very similar to something I already have just doesn't make sense or get my heart fluttering.

[Veloo]

Go for the Holland Exo if you have a lead for a good price.
You can get regular Ti anytime.

[colker]

I see a problem w/ the exogrid bike: it may be impossible to have anything nicer or better next. If you agree on reaching a zenith ... go for it.

[metalheart]

I have had an Exogrid since 2011 and a Holland HC since summer of last year. While I love the HC, I ride the Exogrid just az often. It is a smooth but responsive bike that helps on chip seal and other rough roads where I ride. I would have no hesitations about the quality or the ride characteristics of an Exogrid.

Working with Bill and his fitter Cody has been an exceptional experience. They are knowledgeable and Bill is a true craftsman.

Buy one or both.

[Clean39T]

I have had an Exogrid since 2011 and a Holland HC since summer of last year. While I love the HC, I ride the Exogrid just az often. It is a smooth but responsive bike that helps on chip seal and other rough roads where I ride. I would have no hesitations about the quality or the ride characteristics of an Exogrid.



Working with Bill and his fitter Cody has been an exceptional experience. They are knowledgeable and Bill is a true craftsman.



Buy one or both.Why have we not seem pics of your HC?!?!?

That's the bike I most lust after in this world....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[exapkib]

I sure appreciate the comments here. Especially Clean39T--you're uncomfortably close to the truth with that comment. An unexpected warm spell has given me two really nice rides on the Yamaguchi n the past two days, and I'm reminded again that it is a really special frame.

How different would the Ti bike (whatever its make and model) be from what I have in this bike? Likely lighter (Yamaguchi as built is on the heavier side at almost 22 pounds ready to roll (though much of that extra weight is in the wheelset I'm currently using, which opens an entirely different bag of worms)), though by how much? Because I'm not exactly in a position to spring for a full custom that replicates the geometry of my current bike, substantial differences in handling and road feel are a given.

In a lot of ways this is a leftover dream from grad school days--I dreamed of the day that I would get tenure and be able to splurge on a Moots titanium road bike. The thought still excites me, but I also find myself considering a refinish and new set of wheels for the 'guchi instead . . . growing up is confusing!

[Drmojo]

He loved it when he rode on the road. He preferred it
to his Calfee. Now he rides off road on his e mt bike
56cm
he may one to sell it cheap

[Drmojo]

could not edit

[Clean39T]

I sure appreciate the comments here. Especially Clean39T--you're uncomfortably close to the truth with that comment. An unexpected warm spell has given me two really nice rides on the Yamaguchi n the past two days, and I'm reminded again that it is a really special frame.

How different would the Ti bike (whatever its make and model) be from what I have in this bike? Likely lighter (Yamaguchi as built is on the heavier side at almost 22 pounds ready to roll (though much of that extra weight is in the wheelset I'm currently using, which opens an entirely different bag of worms)), though by how much? Because I'm not exactly in a position to spring for a full custom that replicates the geometry of my current bike, substantial differences in handling and road feel are a given.

In a lot of ways this is a leftover dream from grad school days--I dreamed of the day that I would get tenure and be able to splurge on a Moots titanium road bike. The thought still excites me, but I also find myself considering a refinish and new set of wheels for the 'guchi instead . . . growing up is confusing!

You might be amazed at what a difference a pair of light, stiff wheels would make on your Yamaguchi. I'd consider picking up some Fulcrum Racing Zero or Shamals, put some nice Veloflex Masters on there w latex tubs, and see what that does for you. The Yamaguchi is always going to be on the heavier side given it is fillet brazed, but with refreshed paint and a modern group and wheels it could totally transform for you and give you everything you are after. Most disc bikes are in the 17lb range now, and I'm guessing you could get there with your Yamaguchi with some careful choices, and not have to go N+1 if you don't want to.. Just hang onto your current build kit for when you want to put it back to more of a classic look down the road.

[82Picchio]

I had an exogrid about 7-8 years ago. Workmanship was amazing. The bike scared the bejeezus out of me on descents for some reason -- felt completely unpredictable. I rode it maybe a half dozen times and never got comfortable descending. Bill asked that I send the frame back and I did. He couldn't find anything wrong with the frame and he felt it rode just fine. He sent me my money back, which absolutely blew my socks off. I've been looking for a lugged steel Holland in 59-60 ever since...

[Ken Robb]

In the early 1990s I bought a new low-end Trek that shimmied terribly when I got up to 30mph descending. Techs could find nothing wrong and it did not shimmy when one of them who was lighter than me went down the same hill. We swapped for some Rolf wheels and it still shimmied under me but not until 33mph. I never solved the problem so I put it up for local sale. A guy a little taller/thinner than me came to buy it because he had just had his identical bike stolen from his SUV. I told him why I was selling and suggested he try it down La Jolla Shores Drive where I can hit 45mph while dodging ripples so it's a good test. He came back smiling-no problem for him-and paid me in cash and I never heard from him again.

I tell the story because shimmy and instability CAN be hard to predict or diagnose. Bill may have sold that frame to another rider who was thrilled to get it and never had a problem like you did.

I think our pal Jeff Nix has or had and exogrid that he loved. Have I missed a post from him on this subject?

[bikser]

No idea of the ride quality on ExoGrid bikes, remember seeing them back when Titus was in business down in Phoenix. I was at the Dean factory in Boulder a few weeks ago, they produce one as well.

[metalheart]

I had an exogrid about 7-8 years ago. Workmanship was amazing. The bike scared the bejeezus out of me on descents for some reason -- felt completely unpredictable. I rode it maybe a half dozen times and never got comfortable descending. Bill asked that I send the frame back and I did. He couldn't find anything wrong with the frame and he felt it rode just fine. He sent me my money back, which absolutely blew my socks off. I've been looking for a lugged steel Holland in 59-60 ever since...

Interesting difference: descending is one of the strengths of my Exogrid. When Bill asked about the ride characteristics I wanted, a solid descender was at the top of the list. Mine tracks true and is predictable in descending around curves, just the things that give me confidence in descents. Who knows what makes the difference, but I think Bill's commitment to owner satisfaction is illustrated in your refund example. He does not make that many frames a year and committing to making his customers satisfied is important to me as a consumer.

[happycampyer]

I had an exogrid about 7-8 years ago. Workmanship was amazing. The bike scared the bejeezus out of me on descents for some reason -- felt completely unpredictable. I rode it maybe a half dozen times and never got comfortable descending. Bill asked that I send the frame back and I did. He couldn't find anything wrong with the frame and he felt it rode just fine. He sent me my money back, which absolutely blew my socks off. I've been looking for a lugged steel Holland in 59-60 ever since...I would be very surprised if the shimmy or whatever it was that you experienced had anything to do with the Exogrid tubing.

[Clean39T]

I would be very surprised if the shimmy or whatever it was that you experienced had anything to do with the Exogrid tubing.+1 - I've had bikes shimmy w certain wheel/component combos, and not w others..

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Jeff N.]

I will say that the Holland Exogrid, from my experience, is VERY hard to beat...on any basis of comparison.

[SPOKE]

I purchased a Santana Synergy Hexogrid coupled tandem earlier this year. I’ll have to say it is a very well made bike. My only comparison is it’s less expensive cousin, an all Ti coupled Journey. Both bikes are plenty stiff. Can’t say I noticed any difference between them. Loved the both so I bought the Synergy.... just because.:)

[Hellgate]

Give Max at 333fab a call, or Bill Davidson. I suspect both will recommend a full Ti bike vs a hybrid.

[Dave Ferris]

.

[Latestart]

I saw one at a trade show in SF 5-8 years ago; really beautiful. They are just very expensive. The person at the show was incredibly nice and offered a test ride if I was in SD area. Seems like they are good people, can't speak to the ride, however.