Whoa! Evil Bikes new gravel bike. Different

[12snap]

I just got an email about this new gravel bike from Evil Bike Co. Very different. Bringing the new school, long reach, short stem, slack angles from mountain bikes to gravel.

https://www.evil-bikes.com/a/bikes/chamois-hagar/?mc_cid=7d224dedfd&mc_eid=de7b09e364#builder

[GOTHBROOKS]

awful name for a bike.

[happycampyer]

What’s the difference between that and a ‘cross bike?

[Gummee]

What’s the difference between that and a ‘cross bike?

This is much more of a monstercross bike rather than a CX bike.

Think touring vs racing/road bikes

M

[Clean39T]

awful name for a bike.

Uhhh...the irony....

CHAMOIS_HAGAR would make a great username here....of maybe CHAMOIS_DAVIS_JR.... the possibilities are endless really..

[Clean39T]

On topics though, I'm fully in love with the look and purpose of that bike. I'm still waiting for my EVIL Following MB (More-Better) to get delivered.....and now this...

[happycampyer]

horrible name for a bike.
fify

I wonder if the spawn of the Chamois Hagar will be the Chamois Ishmael...

This is much more of a monstercross bike rather than a CX bike.

Think touring vs racing/road bikes

MThat was a joke. See the thread, “Differences between a cross vs. gravel bike.”

What exactly does it mean to “exude stoke”?

[hummus_aquinas]

It’s the year 2040, people have to use puns or face the NBC’s The Office death squads.

[madsciencenow]

Not sure what I would personally do with this but I’m sure there are some who will see this as the right tool for the lay of the roads and trails in their hood.


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[12snap]

I'd like to ride it just to see how the geometry rides for gravel. I think this would be a fun commuter. It's not much different from a rigid moutain bike, though.

[GOTHBROOKS]

he might make cabo wabo tequila but his vibe does not “exude stoke“ the same way dlr doing cheerleader toe touches off the drum riser does.
montrose has like two good songs.

[GOTHBROOKS]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wU92eycwmxY/hqdefault.jpg
RIGHT NOW someone is shredding the gnar for the first time

[zzy]

Bringing the new school, long reach, short stem, slack angles from mountain bikes to gravel.

GT did that years ago

[notsew]

This is basically the perfect (non-racing) gravel bike there could be up here (Evil Global HQ's hood). The gravel goes straight up and straight down on chunky, loose logging roads with regular diversions onto single track.

[p nut]

I don't understand the geo. ETT, reach, stack numbers are about equivalent to a regular MTB of the same size. Seems like they just put dropbars on a MTB.

[joosttx]

awful name for a bike.

could be called the "Taint Hammer"

[FlashUNC]

Just buy a mountain bike.

[avalonracing]

Yes, on the last three comments!

[IJWS]

he might make cabo wabo tequila but his vibe does not “exude stoke“ the same way dlr doing cheerleader toe touches off the drum riser does.
montrose has like two good songs.

Funny, I ran into David Lee Roth at Incycle in Pasadena a few months ago. Apparently he’s really into bikes...definitely exuded stoke.

[dbnm]

I can totally envision the moment that came up with that name.

[Jaybee]

I don't understand the geo. ETT, reach, stack numbers are about equivalent to a regular MTB of the same size. Seems like they just put dropbars on a MTB.

It looks like you do understand the geo. This is a drop bar, non-sus corrected, rigid MTB. Looks like fun to me.

[IJWS]

Global cycling news: ‘Gravel Bikes Exist Because Mountain Biking is Now Boring’

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_xFpg_UmA

This video makes tons of sense to me. Actually got me interested in gravel. I started riding Xc in the 90’s and it was super fun. Current day trail riding is terrifying though which scares my aging self but also made sharing mtb with my girlfriend hard because she was not ready to go all out all the time. Gravel appeals to me because it gets to a slower, lamer time in mtb when I had a lot of fun.

In other parts of the country-especially Trump country, gravel is taking off because it is so dangerous to ride on the road. My coworkers in Kansas City opened my eyes to how bad that can be.

**interestingly though, I think the bike industry is the real winner here.

Road bikes have been mainstream for the past 15-20 years, but mountain bike technology has been developing this whole time. Modern mtb Bikes are super-capable, but there is no market for them. The sport has turned into skiing and is so much more gnarly and extreme than anyone in the 90’s ever imagined. In that progression, a lot of great technology has been left on the table and a lot of industry standards have been mixing around.

From an industry perspective, gravel bikes make a great crossover between road and mountain, but they also have an influence and road bikes are getting tougher and more mtb like every year. My favorite gravel trend this year, as shown in the chamois Davis jr, is the long top tube, slack angled xc mtb geometry. What a weird thing.

[Robot870]

Looks like MTB - Cycling has become a joke!

[joosttx]

Just buy a mountain bike.

That’s where I am at with gravel bikes. The new super wide tires just don’t seem as practical as a MTB.

[charliedid]

That may very well be a really great choice for a lot of people for a big mountain gravel bike. I like the thinking.

But people might not want to buy it because strangers on the inter forums will scoff at it/them without trying to understand it or god forbid ride it.

If it's not for me it's not for you.

Carry on.

[cgolvin]

Uhhh...the irony....

CHAMOIS_HAGAR would make a great username here....of maybe CHAMOIS_DAVIS_JR.... the possibilities are endless really..

Dan, once you opt to finally forgo standard road cranks and your username is not appropriate we'll be holding CHAMOIS_HAGAR_THE_HORRIBLE for you.

(+1 GOTHBROOKS)

[DrewK]

Global cycling news: ‘Gravel Bikes Exist Because Mountain Biking is Now Boring’

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_xFpg_UmA

This video makes tons of sense to me. Actually got me interested in gravel. I started riding Xc in the 90’s and it was super fun. Current day trail riding is terrifying though which scares my aging self but also made sharing mtb with my girlfriend hard because she was not ready to go all out all the time. Gravel appeals to me because it gets to a slower, lamer time in mtb when I had a lot of fun.

In other parts of the country-especially Trump country, gravel is taking off because it is so dangerous to ride on the road. My coworkers in Kansas City opened my eyes to how bad that can be.

**interestingly though, I think the bike industry is the real winner here.

Road bikes have been mainstream for the past 15-20 years, but mountain bike technology has been developing this whole time. Modern mtb Bikes are super-capable, but there is no market for them. The sport has turned into skiing and is so much more gnarly and extreme than anyone in the 90’s ever imagined. In that progression, a lot of great technology has been left on the table and a lot of industry standards have been mixing around.

From an industry perspective, gravel bikes make a great crossover between road and mountain, but they also have an influence and road bikes are getting tougher and more mtb like every year. My favorite gravel trend this year, as shown in the chamois Davis jr, is the long top tube, slack angled xc mtb geometry. What a weird thing.

Perhaps... bike industry concerned because MTB technology really isn’t changing that much, and bike buyers starting to get wise?

Bike industry gotta sell bikes. What you don’t have a gravel bike???? Shame shame. God forbid cyclists just ride a flat bar MTB.

I live in Trump country... gravel just as bad. Think of the caliber of people that frequently drive on gravel roads... not to bag on anyone, but let’s just say that the median income and IQ are probably both a little lower. They run you off the gravel and they don’t have to worry about anybody else coming along to find you for quite some time.

[FlashUNC]

That’s where I am at with gravel bikes. The new super wide tires just don’t seem as practical as a MTB.

Hella wide tires and narrow drop bars just seem like a recipe for a bike to handle like crap.

[Gummee]

What exactly does it mean to “exude stoke”?
I ride mtn bikes, but I'm not a 'mtn biker.' I'm also WAY out of that demographic

Inn short: Don't know. Don't care.

M

[EB]

Trying to think of the terrain that would be great for a 66 degree head angle, but not suspension. Internet forums?

Love the name, though. Stay stony, Evil.

[geordanh]

Range of reactions to this is not shocking. As usual, perception of it depends on what you ride. XC racers don’t lose their mind when the latest slack AF dh race bike comes out, obviously. But, it took a while for the sport to sort itself out and in the early days of free ride there was lots of debate about what the sport is or isnt. Gravel is turning out to be as broad a category as MTB with the same type of ultimately meaningless internal debate.

Back to my gravel bikes progression thread from a few weeks ago, people riding their gravel bikes only on fire roads and rural gravel range roads will never appreciate this kind of bike and that’s just fine. Incorporating the local mtb trails into longer gravel rides is a blast and this bike would be a hoot. Of course, riding these same trails on an mtb is also a total hoot, just a different experience.

I personally hope they sell lots of these.

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[Clean39T]

Dan, once you opt to finally forgo standard road cranks and your username is not appropriate we'll be holding CHAMOIS_HAGAR_THE_HORRIBLE for you.

(+1 GOTHBROOKS)

I'm at least half way there - I have no Campy or any 39 inners on my bike... In fact, I'll shortly have some 31 rings :eek:

I love the addition to teh pun BTW ;)

[EB]

PVD should sue: http://www.peterverdone.com/2018-pvd-bird-of-prey/

[old fat man]

Trying to think of the terrain that would be great for a 66 degree head angle, but not suspension. Internet forums?

Love the name, though. Stay stony, Evil.

Maybe an event like Leadville. It's too smooth and paved at times for an mtb, but the climbs have some mildly technical sections, and the descents are loose enough to make a gravel bike a bit too sketchy. Lots of people choose an mtb with aero bars and some do choose a gravel or monster cross bike. It's still always been won on an mtb (sometimes with aero bars) though.

[charliedid]

PVD should sue: http://www.peterverdone.com/2018-pvd-bird-of-prey/

I was thinking of those bikes too. Not sure you can make a legal claim to geometry can you?

[commonguy001]

The trail isn’t that much higher than a new Cutthroat (93 vs 88) and the new Cutthroat is shocking good. I would have scoffed at this a year or two ago but I’d try one now and probably really like it.
All kinds of crazy crap happening with gravel now, check out the Curve Walmer bars. The widest is 750mm in the drops.

Between the Chamois Hanger, the Beaux Jaxon and the new Cutthroat, there are some seriously crazy options. I for one am stoked.

[sparky33]

I bet bikepackers and mtb’ers will like this as their drop bar bike. ...the Salsa Cutthroat taken a step further. 29x2 tires, slack steering, narrow cranks and fork baggage sounds fun. I like it.

None of this is trying to replace a road bike.

[sparky33]

What tires are 29x2.0...50mm?

Am I seeing correctly that this is only available as a complete bike? No frameset only option?

[happycampyer]

PVD should sue: http://www.peterverdone.com/2018-pvd-bird-of-prey/I was just about to post the same thing! Man, his thread across the hall went into a swirling bird-of-prey death spiral...

I actually think the bike is very cool. I have a 650B all-road bike with a Lefty Oliver, so I get the idea of blurring the line between road and MTB... it's the marketing that kills me.

[Kirk007]

NW knarly gravel bike; NW mountain bike; NW cross,gravel, bike packing bike. A real bike fanatic has the proper toolfor every job.:banana:
1697989994https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191217/be4e7856a6924cf0b85359a3b5747414.jpg1697989995

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[geordanh]

PVD should sue: http://www.peterverdone.com/2018-pvd-bird-of-prey/



This is super interesting. Never heard of the guy before. Is this dude trying to sell bikes or is this just a blog thing?


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[Mike V]

Looks like a carbon Cunningham.

[XXtwindad]

The bike looks super versatile and capable. Also really effin ugly. Kind of like the Kevin McHale of gravel bikes ...

[Spdntrxi]

The bike looks super versatile and capable. Also really effin ugly. Kind of like the Kevin McHale of gravel bikes ...

you a Dennis Johnson fan or something.

[XXtwindad]

you a Dennis Johnson fan or something.

Come to think of it, the whole '86 Celts were like today's full sus MTBs. Not a pretty player among them and they were unstoppable. Give me a sleek (Showtime) hardtail any day.

It's cool to see a road bike oriented toward descending as much as climbing, since that's not my strong suit. That being said, with geo that slack and a 50mm stem, it wouldn't seem like a "Billy Goat" on the climbs...

[weisan]

https://www.framedbikes.com/collections/gravel-bikes/products/marquette-carbon-adventure-bike

[sparky33]

Is the Evil C.H. intended to be a dirt drop handlebar...where you primarily ride in the drops? What about the Cutthroat, or the Framed Marquette?

[rain dogs]

...that's what I call putting a spoiler on a dump truck.

[sparky33]

That’s where I am at with gravel bikes. The new super wide tires just don’t seem as practical as a MTB.

An ~xc hardtail does so many things well, including gravel. This makes a lot of sense.

Though my hands do want more hand positions than a flat bar offers on long gravel rides ...and I wish Boost cranks weren't so wide Q for long pedal-ly rides.

[David Tollefson]

What, they call it the Chamois Hagar and it's not even red? FAIL!

[unterhausen]

Gravel appeals to me because it gets to a slower, lamer time in mtb when I had a lot of fun.
If you look at the origins of mountain biking, it was actually riding on gravel roads for the most part.

As far as the bike in the OP goes, it looks a lot like a Salsa Fargo. For riding the gravel here in Central Pa, something like a Fargo or even a hardtail mountain bike is a pretty good choice.

[p nut]

...Though my hands do want more hand positions than a flat bar offers on long gravel rides ...and I wish Boost cranks weren't so wide Q for long pedal-ly rides.

There are several alt bar options if you want more hand positions. Jones carbon would probably be my pick.

https://bikepacking.com/gear/list-of-comfort-mtb-handlebars/

[p nut]

.... For riding the gravel here in Central Pa, something like a Fargo or even a hardtail mountain bike is a pretty good choice.

Except the geo on the Fargo makes sense. High stack (puts the drops in the right place), shorter TT, sensible HTA. This bike.....dropbars cobbled on an MTB.

[kingpin75s]

Is the Evil C.H. intended to be a dirt drop handlebar...where you primarily ride in the drops? What about the Cutthroat, or the Framed Marquette?

Nope. Looks to be standard drop bar vs. dirt drop based on positioning and bar choice.

[Clancy]

I want to ride one, looks to be just a screaming amount of fun.

I could take or leave the name. The problem with puns is that they quickly lose any novelty and become stale.

Actually, I would love to ride one of these made out of 853 steel tubing or equivalent. That would be a fun bike to bang around on.

[XXtwindad]

Just buy a mountain bike.

This actually seems like a rational sentiment. I lived right across the street from some of the most technical singletrack in the East Bay Area. Just once in four years did I see anyone attempt it with drop bars. And he was picking his lines very very carefully ...

Also, if you have a bike capable of fitting a 45c tire (as I soon will) what's the big difference between that and a 50c tire?

[unterhausen]

I could take or leave the name. The problem with puns is that they quickly lose any novelty and become stale.
I have always been somewhat grateful that All City didn't put the name on my Macho Macho Man disc. I call it the 3M


This actually seems like a rational sentiment. I lived right across the street from some of the most technical singletrack in the East Bay Area. Just once in four years did I see anyone attempt it with drop bars. And he was picking his lines very very carefully ...

Also, if you have a bike capable of fitting a 45c tire (as I soon will) what's the big difference between that and a 50c tire?
I posted on the gravel thread that I have gravel access on single track from very close to my house. I have ridden the single track on my gravel bike (40mm tires), and it takes about twice as long than it does no my mtb. A lot more hikeabike and I never get going as fast. There is a big difference between 40mm and 2.25" as far as sure footedness on rocks. OTOH, the gravel bike on pavement is almost as fast as a road bike, whereas the 2.25" tires are considerably slower. If the route was all gravel, that difference wouldn't be much and descending would be faster on the bigger tires.

[joosttx]

This actually seems like a rational sentiment. I lived right across the street from some of the most technical singletrack in the East Bay Area. Just once in four years did I see anyone attempt it with drop bars. And he was picking his lines very very carefully ...

Also, if you have a bike capable of fitting a 45c tire (as I soon will) what's the big difference between that and a 50c tire?

The trending belief in Marin is that XC Hardtails are the fastest bikes. Gravel in Marin is more technical than, say, New England dirt roads. Buddy of mine was able to beat Ned Overland on the local Gravel charity ride which included single, Jeep and tarmac roads on a hardtail while Ned was on a gravel bike. These are just a couple of data points or data that support XC hardtails are the better option.

I’m
Moving back to a 34mm tire on my gravel bike because if I need something bigger I’m riding the MTB.

But everyone has their own duck butter. So smoke it if you got it....&

[d_douglas]

NW knarly gravel bike; NW mountain bike; NW cross,gravel, bike packing bike. A real bike fanatic has the proper tool for every job.:banana:
1697989995



Gawd I love that AirLandSea! That looks the most fun...

As for the Evil bike, it looks fun as well. I would ride that for sure, but I would definitely say it isn't as pretty as the 333Fab.

[XXtwindad]

The trending belief in Marin is that XC Hardtails are the fastest bikes. Gravel in Marin is more technical than, say, New England dirt roads. Buddy of mine was able to beat Ned Overland on the local Gravel charity ride which included single, Jeep and tarmac roads on a hardtail while Ned was on a gravel bike. These are just a couple of data points or data that support XC hardtails are the better option.

I’m
Moving back to a 34mm tire on my gravel bike because if I need something bigger I’m riding the MTB.

But everyone has their own duck butter. So smoke it if you got it....&

Yes. I remember my thread about "Monstercross vs Hardtail." You came firmly down on the side of the latter. Sound advice.

I'll have to look into Duck Butter ...

[EB]

The trending belief in Marin is that XC Hardtails are the fastest bikes. Gravel in Marin is more technical than, say, New England dirt roads.

+1 - This is the conclusion that most people come to in Marin, I think. Most of the fire roads on which off-road riding is (mostly) restricted to in Marin were constructed long ago, cheaply and quickly - as such they tend to go straight up, or straight down. 15%+ grades for sustained periods are common, flat dirt roads are rare, and descents are hair-raising. Even one of the flew flat gravel roads in the county, a pipeline road called S Marin Line, requires an arduous 18%+ climb to reach the trailhead. Combine this with an extremely lax approach to maintenance and poor quality Marin soil and you get rutted, loose, rocky, sandy jeep tracks. Suspension and flat bars make it a lot easier and a lot faster - drop bar gravel bikes generally feel underbiked. Western Marin adds cattle and their trail destruction habits to make it even more fun.

Let's not even get into the singletrack access issues in the county - many years of blood, sweat, and tears (mostly tears) have been spent on that topic.

It's quite a contrast from the time I spent riding in New York and New Jersey where 25mm and 28mm tires and rim brakes were often just fine for gravel riding.

[AndresLD]

BMC has also taken this approach with their new URS. My guess is that this approach is driven due to the gravel market is definitely oversaturated at the moment, and for anything to stand out, it can be just like the rest of them.

[Kirk007]

I would love to ride one of these made out of 853 steel tubing or equivalent. That would be a fun bike to bang around on.

The Singular gryphon and swift were early, similar concepts in steel, but not 853 if I recall. I had a gryphon for awhile - fun bike.

[Krenovian]

What tires are 29x2.0...50mm?

Am I seeing correctly that this is only available as a complete bike? No frameset only option?

The Evil website indicates a frame only option in the drop down menu for ordering.
https://www.evil-bikes.com/a/bikes/chamois-hagar

[Krenovian]

I don't understand the geo. ETT, reach, stack numbers are about equivalent to a regular MTB of the same size. Seems like they just put dropbars on a MTB.

Their blurb about the bike indicates just that.

“Rather than start with a squirrely road bike and relaxing things into borderline manageable, we started with a mountain bike with shred surging through its veins and created the Chamois Hagar.”

[sparky33]

That they are using road-width cranks is meaningful, not the typical Boost cranks we see on mtb.

[m_moses]

Are they going to make a version for dudes?


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[Jaybee]

There are a lot of comparisons to the other drop bar MTB/big clearance gravel bikes out there - Kona Sutra LTD, Cutthroat, Fargo, etc. This doesn't have nearly the clearance that those bikes do, though it does keep the road Q-factor and fairly short chainstays. Also, none of those bikes have such a slack HTA and trail figure. Not saying this is good or bad, just that it's different than anything else on the market. I've been really happy with the similar trail figure on my MTB - I don't find it slow to react or floppy or hard to keep the front planted when climbing, but that's also got a 2.6" tire and 150mm of suspension in the equation.

[EricChanning]

Global cycling news: ‘Gravel Bikes Exist Because Mountain Biking is Now Boring’

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_xFpg_UmA

This video makes tons of sense to me. Actually got me interested in gravel. I started riding Xc in the 90’s and it was super fun. Current day trail riding is terrifying though which scares my aging self but also made sharing mtb with my girlfriend hard because she was not ready to go all out all the time. Gravel appeals to me because it gets to a slower, lamer time in mtb when I had a lot of fun....

I'm wondering what your nearby trails look like.

The Mid-Atlantic singletrack that was around in the 90's and still around today is much more fun with a modern XC bike or trail bike with slack angles, wide bars, a dropper and around 100mm to 120mm of front and rear suspension. Not all the modern MTB bikes are designed to handle big jumps and gnarly DH runs.

People need to be realistic about the kind of trails they ride and the way they ride them. There's an incredible array of bike choices out there compared to the 90's. There's a bunch of people riding trails without sailing through the air every 10 to 20 yards. They just aren't being captured on high-res video.

This bike is just another very specific tool that ads another choice to the mix. It's just right for the type of riding that someone does. It looks like it was built to make that particular type of riding a lot more fun. What are the gravel roads like in your area?

[nmrt]

I am uncertain why someone would chose this evil versus lets say a hardtail or even a racy full suspension xc mtb bike, especially when they plan to use the evil on gnarly-ish singletrack.

of the myriad of reasons why i buy my bike, here are two:
1. is the bike going to be faster over my preferred terrain? It looks like the evil will not be faster on these gnarly-ish terrain compared to a hardtail or a xc fs mtb.
2. is the bike going to more fun over my preferred terrain? It looks like the evil is not going to be more fun on these gnarly-ish terrain compared to a hardtail or a xc fs mtb. man...it will be bone rattling.

so, to me the evil does not make sense on any terrain. even on flat gravel road where the evil's 66 deg HT angle and a trail in the 90s just does not make sense.

but hey, that's just me!:)

[sparky33]

I thought the Lauf fork was ridiculous and stupid until I tried it. Lesson learned.

It's telling how much buzz this bike has generated in the last few days, as compared to any other new gravel bike since...the Open U.P.
Disruptive things make good discussion.

[EricChanning]

I am uncertain why someone would chose this evil versus lets say a hardtail or even a racy full suspension xc mtb bike, especially when they plan to use the evil on gnarly-ish singletrack.

so, to me the evil does not make sense on any terrain. even on flat gravel road where the evil's 66 deg HT angle and a trail in the 90s just does not make sense.

but hey, that's just me!:)

You only mention 2 types of terrain. Other's talked about gravel that can be pretty steep and washed out with sandy section. That stuff doesn't require the same thing from a bike as does gnarly singletrack.

So this bike, like the Salsa Cutthroat, may get the attention of folks that go on rides featuring hilly challenging gravel with a bit of not so gnarly singletrack and some pavement. An XC mtb is just a bit of overkill for that combination of terrain.

[Hilltopperny]

This looks like a reasonable option for some folks. The Hagar isn’t aesthetically pleasing to my eye, but it still looks like a fun bike. It’s basically a drop bar rigid xc bike with a dropper post. I don’t think I would be willing to buy one over an xc hardtail, but it’s another option.

I am interested in some long term reviews to see how people end up getting along with these. I like seeing different stuff pop up every once in a while. The Lauf True Grit looks intriguing to me and so does the Moots Baxter. Some of Salsa’s offerings look interesting as well.


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[Jaybee]

Part of the point of this whole category of bikes is that it might not be the perfect tool for every situation, but its fun for a lot of them. It’s ok to not have a Colnago with Super Record for the paved portion of your ride. It’s ok to not have a SB130 for the single track portion. It’s ok to rail that rutted gravel descent even though your tires are only 2” wide and it’s ok to pound out some FS road miles even if your head angle is “too slack”. It’s for adventuring.

[Clean39T]

Part of the point of this whole category of bikes is that it might not be the perfect tool for every situation, but its fun for a lot of them. It’s ok to not have a Colnago with Super Record for the paved portion of your ride. It’s ok to not have a SB130 for the single track portion. It’s ok to rail that rutted gravel descent even though your tires are only 2” wide and it’s ok to pound out some FS road miles even if your head angle is “too slack”. It’s for adventuring.That's true, but it still makes my hands hurt to think about riding that bike in the rough stuff....fat tires and all....

I give them kudos for trying something new though.

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[Jaybee]

That's true, but it still makes my hands hurt to think about riding that bike in the rough stuff....fat tires and all....

I give them kudos for trying something new though.

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I believe we call this Type 2 fun.

[Clean39T]

I believe we call this Type 2 fun.The older I get, the more Type 1 fun is appealing to me ... ha, ha.

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[adub]

Stay off my lawn!

[huck*this]

GT did that years ago

Hey buddy. Trying to send you a PM but your inbox is full. Shoot me a message once cleared.

Cheers