Re-Sale Value of bikes [Archive]

Smiley

01-02-2007, 07:02 AM

I have seen lately some late model Serotta legend Ti frames selling as complete bikes with 9 speed stuff for around 1.5 K. A new replacement Legend Ti Frame retails less fork for about 4 K. Makes me wonder if Ti bikes in under 10 years have zippo value and Ti can take a beating on the road and still keep ticking what on earth with some of these exotic carbone frames be worth in 5-10 years. Is it me or am I seeing some really smokin hot deals on some pretty good used frames lately. Vandella ( spelling ? ) could not give away an almost new Vanilla steel frame recently. Makes me wonder why if steel and Ti are getting beat up today and with everybody jumping on Carbone and the rapid technology changes for carbone what will those prices look like down the road ?

saab2000

01-02-2007, 07:17 AM

This is a topic near and dear to me.

I have benefitted immensely from the collapse in prices of used stuff.

All three of my main rides were used bikes and all three were gotten at a fraction of the new price. I have seen some real steals out there and it goes to show that the new prices are wildly overinflated. Free market....

There is no way I could ride the nice stuff I ride if not for the level playing field created by Ebay. Market economics at work in the real world.

But cycling is the new golf (or so they say) and so affluent people always want the latest and greatest stuff. Last year's stuff is, well, last year's stuff. My Look 381 is ancient by bike standards, yet just a few years ago Jalabert, Hamilton, et al were tearing up the roads on just that bike and were not slow about it either.

Technology does not advance as rapidly as prices.

Frank

01-02-2007, 07:20 AM

but it the used prices for steel and ti have been down, unless they are "names" like Merckx and DeRosa and Sachs, etc. When I was buying and selling quite a few frames this time of the year was the buying time, with the end of winter and spring the selling season.

Carbon is the new "it" material, which hurts the sellers of non cf used frames but helps those of us who like steel.

Elefantino

01-02-2007, 07:25 AM

Technology does not advance as rapidly as prices.

Amen, brother.

Ray

01-02-2007, 08:01 AM

In the past, I've gotten pretty close to nothing for mainstream name brand bikes like Specialized and such, and very little for used Litespeed and Merckx ti (given that those frames were virtually as nice as when brand new by any functional measure. I can't imagine that a full custom would have a lot of resale potential unless the measurements were VERY common, just because it was built for a particular rider/body/fit/riding style/etc that would be very hard to replicate. I had a bad experience buying a used custom once and I'd be leery of buying another custom that was built for someone else unless I was able to talk to the builder/designer and get assurances that it would right right for me.

OTOH, some stuff is pretty timeless. I just sold a Rivendell that I'd ridden for 9 seasons for $900 after having paid about $1050 for it back in 1997. So I basically rented that frame for a little under $17 per year. Not bad return. I suspect a lot of high end vintage (real or simulated) steel frames would bring a pretty penny. A 1950's Singer would cost a WHOLE lot more today than when new.

-Ray

saab2000

01-02-2007, 08:06 AM

I have found when selling used stuff that if I recognise that I will take a hit it is easy to sell stuff and be rid of it.

I sold my Strong and Anvil this way. After I shipped the Strong I never heard another word. But I know the owner of the Anvil is happy and for that I am happy.

If the guy who bought the Strong is happy he got an incredible deal because the bike was essentially like it was when it came out of the box, but paid about 1/3 or less of the new price. But it goes both ways because that's how it was with my Serotta CIII.

But I took a big hit on both bikes relative to their new prices. Both were customs, but the Anvil had really quite standard dimensions.

onekgguy

01-02-2007, 08:20 AM

This is a topic near and dear to me.

I have benefitted immensely from the collapse in prices of used stuff.

All three of my main rides were used bikes and all three were gotten at a fraction of the new price. I have seen some real steals out there and it goes to show that the new prices are wildly overinflated. Free market....

There is no way I could ride the nice stuff I ride if not for the level playing field created by Ebay. Market economics at work in the real world.

i'm not sure the prices of new stuff are 'wildly overinflated' as i have my doubts that serotta would be in existence if it weren't for those of us willing to pay the cost to produce a frame. if you can show me where serotta is making money hand over fist then i would agree with you. it could be that serotta is in fact making a killing off those who have ponied up the money for a custom frame as i did. i didn't really have much choice when it came to finding a frame which fit my long leg/short torso dimensions. it's true that should i have to sell the frame i'd get only a fraction of what i paid for it but i don't think that's because i paid too much to serotta. maybe somebody else can say this better than i.

Kevin

saab2000

01-02-2007, 08:26 AM

i'm not sure the prices of new stuff are 'wildly overinflated' as i have my doubts that serotta would be in existence if it weren't for those of us willing to pay the cost to produce a frame. if you can show me where serotta is making money hand over fist then i would agree with you. it could be that serotta is in fact making a killing off those who have ponied up the money for a custom frame as i did. i didn't really have much choice when it came to finding a frame which fit my long leg/short torso dimensions. it's true that should i have to sell the frame i'd get only a fraction of what i paid for it but i don't think that's because i paid too much to serotta. maybe somebody else can say this better than i.

Kevin

You misunderstand. If Serotta can get $7500 for a Meivici then it is priced appropriately. It is a free market and that's the way it goes.

More power to Serotta and Seven and all the other companies which charge a lot of money and can get it.

But for me the price of new stuff is just too much and the used market levels the playing field.

I am not critical of Serotta here. There is no particular commentary at all. Just an observation that market demands set prices for products like these. The market for used stuff is overflowing with good stuff for a lot less than new. Often it is barely used, as was the case with my CIII.

DRZRM

01-02-2007, 08:38 AM

If you are selling a used frame of any kind you are going to take a beating in the winter. If I remember correctly, a used Ottrott (2004?) with two sets of nice wheels went for around $2,300 a few months ago, and I've recently bought and sold Legends for a fraction of their value, fortunately my selling price and my buying price were close (within a few hundred dollars). That said, I've seen some carbon Colnagos floating around here at mind blowingly low prices. This is not a problem unique to titanium.

In the end, bikes are not an "investment" any more than cars are. From time to time something may hold its value or even appreciate, but what you are really paying for is the chance to ride them. If you sell them used, you are not going to make much back on your investment. If you really want to maximize your profit, sell in spring, buy used in the winter.

As for new bikes prices being "wildly inflated," the fact that these companies do well (waiting lists, expanded annual sales, etc.) seems to suggest not. Maybe the nature of the market forces used bikes to be "wildly deflated." I've always felt like, if you can fit on a stock size, why not buy used? I'd never be able to afford the brands I like to ride (Serotta, Moots) at retail. I stick to Ti frames because they are so hard to damage, I feel like they are a pretty safe investment used (though all my used frames were very lightly used).

Zach

Zach

1centaur

01-02-2007, 08:39 AM

There's a value to getting what you want when you want it, as opposed to what you are okay with when somebody else feels like selling it. If we're ballparking here, I'd say a like-new but still used frame is 1/3rd less than new because the buyer wants to feel he did not overpay and is somewhat concerned with condition and lack of warranty (usually), and another 1/3rd less because the buyer is not in love with the frame and desperate (with an implication that there's not a lot of competition for the frame). Subtract even more for excessive age or actually noted flaws. Carbon has the potential to be hit even more than these ranges over 10 years because of technological changes that might bring smooth riding, efficient 1-pound frames in possibly mechanically superior shapes.

The trick in all this for buyers is to actually REALLY WANT the frame being sold used RIGHT THEN, but not pay up for that urge. That's when great bargains happen.

saab2000

01-02-2007, 08:46 AM

I have been scouring Ebay for a lightly used, good condition Look 481SL in size 57 and only saw one. It was a complete bike (not what I want) and was going for about $2400 for an essentially new complete bike! Not bad at all.

I can afford to wait as I have some good ones already. But when that Look I am looking for shows up I will pounce. The people who like these bikes tend to also like new ones frequently and so they do come available.

I am not color picky on this Look, but the size is non-negotiable. When it becomes available I expect to not have to pay more than about $750, including fork, headset and seatpost, which is how these frames were sold as recently as two years ago.

pale scotsman

01-02-2007, 08:55 AM

Dan Le foot

01-02-2007, 09:11 AM

saab2000

01-02-2007, 09:14 AM

[QUOTE=saab2000]

More power to Serotta and Seven and all the other companies which charge a lot of money and can get it.

QUOTE]
The right price is the highest price you can sell and still sleep at night. ;)
Dan

Sleeping at night with a good conscience probably means something to Serotta, but certainly not to most business execs who couldn't care less about how they sell their employees out to fatten their own wallets.

But that's a whole 'nuther ball o' wax.

I can live not having a $7500 Meivici knowing that I CAN have a CIII or Coeur d'Acier which cost a fraction of that and will provide me with 99% of the bike of the Meivici. Don't let that secret out of the bag.

Ginger

01-02-2007, 09:58 AM

Smiley,
Are you surprised when your brand new car depreciates when you drive it off the dealer lot?

You pay a premium for "new." Once a frame hits the used market, even if it wasn't ridden, it's used and will get priced by the market. Custom geometry and "special" bikes vary in their marketability (your vanilla example is exactly that. I've seen a few other vanillas move well.).

Once a standard frame hits the used market, the prices seem to be pretty stable within that particular brand/model, or even increase if it turns out the bike was some sort of "special" to a niche market...like 1994 rockhoppers or say...a Yo eddy.

So...I don't think new bike prices are overinflated. They're just prices for "new" rather than "used."

Ginger

SoCalSteve

01-02-2007, 10:14 AM

This new CDA (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250067468097&rd=1&rd=1) with an F3 went for $811 yesterday. The guy had a buy it now of $1,250 and I would have bit but for the 74* seat tube. Maybe the dude has a shop and paid cost for the frameset, but the average joe would have lost his ***.

I too would have bit for $1250.00, but did not want the 74* seat tube angle either...

Then when someone bid and the price went to $800.00, (but it now went away) I got interested again. I actually wanted to test a geometry theorey that I have and this was/is the perfect bike to do it with.....

So, I bought it for $811.00...Price of the painted fork is almost that much alone.

If I dont like what the experiment yeilds, I'll sell it.

Steve

Xyzzy

01-02-2007, 10:31 AM

I've never had a custom frame.

Serottas are fairly popular where I live, and I've seen quite a few custom workups that I wonder if they would even be sellable on the used market. I guess if someone needs a custom that puts them outside the normal bellcurve. I'm not saying that all custom frames are odd geometries, but a lot of the ones I have seen are.

I wonder how hard it is to sell something like that. Just curious.

gt6267a

01-02-2007, 10:45 AM

While many products continue operating just fine after trading owners, I value purchasing new highly. With used products there is no warranty(usually), potential damage, cosmetics problems, and in the custom world that it was made for someone else that are all very important. Therefore, if the prices for a new and used good are similar, why would I ever buy used?

To my thinking, the price differential must be significant before purchase of a used product is considered. That said, I am a fan of e-bay and purchasing used products. I find that there are plenty of products selling for 50% or less of the new price. This seems appropriate to me.

Per the specific question about older Ti bikes selling for so little, as the previous posters have discussed the bicycle does not have the most modern dropouts, fork, tubeset, or group. Pile on the used and custom commentaries � That does not mean it is a bad bicycle, but it is worth less than new due to these discrepancies from new.

alancw3

01-02-2007, 11:06 AM

i try to lead my life by this saying "nothing is a buy at any price if it is not exactly what you want or need'. don't misunderstand, i have sometimes surcome to the "scottish" side of me and then realize how foolish i was. and yes i love ebay!

Dan Le foot

01-02-2007, 11:53 AM

[QUOTE=Dan Le foot]

I can live not having a $7500 Meivici knowing that I CAN have a CIII or Coeur d'Acier which cost a fraction of that and will provide me with 99% of the bike of the Meivici. Don't let that secret out of the bag.

I agree, Saab2000. Price/Value is in the minds of the individual.
And I can justify $2000 for a nicely kept used Ottrott but not $5200 for a new one.
I think we have purchased our last new high end bike frame. But we will continue to buy them on the used market. Lots of nice values out there (Less than 50% of new) if one is patient on finding the right size and color you can live with.
Once the original buyer has taken the depreciation hit the prices seem to level out. You can pretty much buy a used bike and sell it a few years later for close to the same price. At lease in my experience.
Dan

Smiley

01-02-2007, 02:05 PM

Ginger I never said or refered to new bikes being over priced. Just the fact that the same Legend Ti less maybe a different drop out is so much depreciated in value based on light use and very good care. I have my wifes old circa 1999 Legend that I will keep rather then sell for the going market values. What will ever happen to a Ti bike ?? Rust , wear and tear , what ?

William

01-02-2007, 02:35 PM

ox_rider

01-02-2007, 03:45 PM

Another factor is clearly wife-onomics. How many times has someone said they needed to clear it with the wife (apologies to female viewers) before they can make a purchase?

Just as Betty Ford and other first ladies are lauded for their contributions to society, don't overlook fear of the wife as setting market prices. I am convinced that left to our own devices, men would overpay for everything.

vandeda

01-02-2007, 04:29 PM

Is it me or am I seeing some really smokin hot deals on some pretty good used frames lately. Vandella ( spelling ? ) could not give away an almost new Vanilla steel frame recently.

Close on the spelling Smiley ... the geometry on that bike is quite standard too. My fitter started with stock Fierte geometry. Virtually no tweaks to it. The only real changes made were the top tube was lengthened by 1 cm to reduce toe overlap since fenders were/are being used, and I wanted a level top tube. I knew the re-sale would be bad, but what surprised me was ... I got 0 hits on roadbikereview.com classified site. I don't know if I poorly advertised it, but no hits at all.

Regardless ... I made a use for the bike since I have to be somewhat realistic. And I'm excited because my Centurion finally got a re-paint!

Anyway ... yeah, used seems to be the way to go for good deals, especially if you're in a popular size. Small guys like me or large guys have to be a little more patient for the really good deals. So .... yeah

d

sevencyclist

01-02-2007, 04:55 PM

If price depreciation of 50% is expected for an used high end bike like Colnago or Pegoretti, then used high end custom bike depreciation should be more than 50%. What Serotta and Seven are selling is the customization for most of their high end models, and one pays a premium to have the customization. If the bike is not designed for the person, then the extra value charged for the customization would completely disappear.

For example, a Serotta La Corsa is a customized Fierte Ti for $400 more. If I purchased an used La Corsa from a friend vs an used Fierte Ti from another friend, and both bikes fit me just right, the value to me would be exactly the same. The price I would be willing to pay would be the same, but since the friend who has La Corsa paid more money than the friend who has the Fierte, the depreciation on La Corsa is relatively larger.

Deb

01-02-2007, 07:08 PM

OK...maybe you spokeheads can help me...I have an older Colnago Sprint bike in excellent condition...dura-ace 9 speed...how much can I get for it? thanks, Deb

Marcusaurelius

01-02-2007, 07:44 PM

I have seen some Colonago and Eddy Merckx frames go for some really high prices on Ebay. I've never seen low prices on the premium italian steel frames.
(I've seen steel Eddy Merckx frames go for more than it was new)

Deb

01-02-2007, 08:02 PM

Ginger

01-02-2007, 08:35 PM

so...how do I go about this whole thing? This ride is really sweet, but I had to have knee surgery this last year and can't pull the passes with a double...do I need to post frame geometry? what and to whom? thanks, Deb
How about a compact in the front, a big ole platter in the back with a long cage rear der?

Just a thought if you love the bike.

Outside that, check the completed auctions on ebay and see how much similar bikes have gone for recently.

Louis

01-02-2007, 09:25 PM

How about a compact in the front, a big ole platter in the back with a long cage rear der?

Actually, depending on range you need up front, you might even be able to use a medium length cage in back. I have some Shimano med. cage MTB r-ders that take go up to 34 T in back. You just have to avoid really stupid cross-chaining combos, but other than that, the math works out, and you avoid the mountain-bike look on the cage.

Louis

ChrisK

01-03-2007, 10:05 AM

The large part of this is that riders today want a new bike each season. I think spending a lot on a good custom frame and keeping it for ten or more years makes a lot more sense. Having a frame where the tubes and angles are selected for your build, weight, and riding style is so much more important than having a bike thats a pound lighter or of a different material or having an extra cog.

The great French constructeurs, Herse, Singer, Routens, had many customers who would buy a bike and bring it back every 5 or 10 years for an update and repaint. Many of these people kept the same frame for half a lifetime. Not only is that a more environmentally and economically sound way to own a bike, but it's also likely to result in a better bike for the rider.

But so many see the bike as a fashion statement or chase the latest technology in a quest to go the tiniest bit faster. And so we have e-bay loaded with devalued bikes; maybe that's not so bad for some of us.

Smiley

01-03-2007, 12:07 PM

amen to brother ChrisK

djg

01-03-2007, 12:32 PM

I don't know that there are any surprises here. One pays a premium for new; one pays a premium for custom; and one may pay a premium for the flavor-of-the-month. Used bikes are discounted accordingly, with a couple of wrinkles. First, is that while the internet makes this less true than it once was, the used bike market is pretty fragmented and noisy. There are huge information asymmetries in the buying and selling of used bikes (quite a bit more so than with cars), which is part of the explanation for the big percentage discounts one often sees for used bikes in excellent condition and a significant bit of the explanation for the tremendous variation one sees in used bike prices. A custom frame, however excellent, may be tougher to sell than a stock one, and may be subject to further discounting accordingly. In a similar way, a used frame that is not a current hot model may need to be further discounted relative to something of very similar condition (e.g., the last of the C40s versus an early C50). l Finally, I think that one needs to look at both percentage price deltas and dollar amount price differences. The difference in price between Trek's least expensive road bike and, say, a Meivici, is easily seen as a big pile of money. It may also be the difference between a Civic and an Accord, a choice many middle-class folks make without a whole lot of drama or commentary from the cheap seats. So what do we make of a 50% discount? When you get to the rather small market of folks looking for that last little bit of performance or cool or just-so or whatever in a bike (or frame), the prospect of saving a few hundred bucks on a purportedly mint new frame may not mean a great deal, even if it's a significant percentage of the sale price. Attach any non-trivial degree of uncertainty regarding the condition of the bike (or the condition in which it will arrive) and it's not all that surprising that folks may want a very large percentage discount over the price of the new item, and may regard less expensive things that are still quite good as closer substitutes than one might think (for example, I've been pretty happy with stock bikes, but I might well prefer a new CDA to a 3 year-old Ottrot that was built for somebody else, even if the measurements on the Ottrot look about right, and even if I don't have the "steel-is-real" religion in any true believer sense).

The good news, IMO, is that you can get something brand spanking new, custom or not, at the way high end of the market, for the price of going from a Civic to an Accord. And the further good news is that, if you're willing to look around a bit, and maybe take a little chance here or there, you can get something really excellent, with a few miles on it, for a fraction of the price. Unless you are investing in frames looking to cash in on appreciation (probably a ridiculous folly, except in special cases), everybody wins.

OldDog

01-03-2007, 12:38 PM

Ahneida Ride

01-03-2007, 12:44 PM

With all this talk of not buying high end bikes in leu of getting a bargin on a lightly used frame....the advent of bike leasing is just around the corner...

Put $2,500 down at signing, $100 a month for 24 months. Turn it in or pay $2,000 and keep it.

Now get a great deal on a two year old, 46 point Factory inspected 57 cm.......
:rolleyes: (sort of...) :rolleyes:

William ;)

Eventually, We will own nothing and lease everything.
Anyone who stores wealth in Federal Reserve Notes is being diluted alive.
We have not money but goverment shopping coupons.
This is the result of creating "money" outa thin air.

Not that long ago 50K purchased a nice 4 bedroom Colonial.
Not that long ago, even pimple faced teenages owned cars.

Welcome to the 21'th Century version of slavery.

CNY rider

01-03-2007, 01:15 PM

djg

01-03-2007, 03:12 PM

what would you be willing pay for a 1995 Spectrum Road std geo 53 with a Time Millinium fork and CK headset? Straight gauge pipes. Grease Guard bb. TK advises me to try and snag $1500 for it. I'm the original owner. F/F and hs and bb only.

This is not a for sale ad but I have been kicking around letting this go and apply the money to a new Legend. But as Smiley notes above, if you cannot get what it's worth, why sell it.

The classical story goes like this: every voluntary transaction is, by definition, at least at the moment of the transaction, worthwhile for the transacting parties. In a sales transaction, the seller only sells for a price equal to or greater than that which the seller attaches to the item; and the buyer only buys for a price equal to or lesser than that which the buyer attaches to the item.

Tom surely knows the market for his used frames way, way better than I do (add as many iterations of "way" as seems appropriate), so take my off-the-cuff guessing with many grains of salt, but the hoped for price seems optimistic to me. Even folks with no significant worries at all about the excellence or integrity of the frame itself may think of tossing the fork for any of several reasons. So you're selling an 11 or 12 year old frame for which many potential customers may want a replacement fork, etc. It may be a bargain for somebody (certainly, it's a lot less than a new one and probably rides great). OTOH, lots of things may seem like nice alternatives at that price or even a good bit less. I seem to recall znfndl trying to sell one of his older Spectra for lots less than that, although I may have the price wrong or I may be missing something else of note about the deal.

At what price should you sell it? I dunno. How badly do you want something else? How much does the money matter to you? A rational person in your shoes might, depending on personal factors, refuse to sell at 1800 or be very happy to sell at 800. Or something in between. Or something else entirely.

palincss

01-03-2007, 03:21 PM

With all this talk of not buying high end bikes in leu of getting a bargin on a lightly used frame....the advent of bike leasing is just around the corner...

Put $2,500 down at signing, $100 a month for 24 months. Turn it in or pay $2,000 and keep it.

Now get a great deal on a two year old, 46 point Factory inspected 57 cm.......

:rolleyes: (sort of...) :rolleyes:

William ;)

You joke, but the biggest problem is that there is no organized used bike market, no trade-ins, with few if any bike shops either accepting or selling used bikes. IOW, they're disposables.

I vaguely recall reading about some web site last year that supposedly priced used bikes - and after a year, IIRC high end bikes were worth around 10% of their retail value. I could have the details wrong - I wasn't paying it that much mind and (as Ray has been already pointed out) the used frames I'd be interested in are holding their value rather nicely.

palincss

01-03-2007, 03:24 PM

The great French constructeurs, Herse, Singer, Routens, had many customers who would buy a bike and bring it back every 5 or 10 years for an update and repaint. Many of these people kept the same frame for half a lifetime. Not only is that a more environmentally and economically sound way to own a bike, but it's also likely to result in a better bike for the rider.

Ernest Csuka of Alex Singer Cycles rides to work every day on the same bike he's been using as a commuter for the past 50 years; and he rides the same weekend bike he's been using for the past 50 years as well.