Canti versus linear pull brakes

[C40_guy]

I'm moving some parts around, thinning the herd a bit, and am wondering about performance of traditional (Paul, Spooky) cantilever brakes versus linear brakes (TRP CX8.4).

The bike in question are cyclocross, although I'm only riding them casually these days, no racing. Most riding is in dry, sometimes dusty or sandy conditions. Levers are Campy Ergo.

If you were setting up a new rim brake 'cross bike, with Campy Ergo levers, would you go canti or linear? Why?

Disc is not an option on these bikes. :(

Thanks!

[GOTHBROOKS]

wide set cantilevers look cooler and thats whats most important.

[AngryScientist]

canti brakes, with proper set-up are excellent, and my choice every time.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9JNsMPvsj-E/XY4p4Ko6d2I/AAAAAAAADUc/_5nY0TOk3HgpT8wOVwgpZdcHcvhFWgOfQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1140/IMG_4512.jpg

[fmradio516]

i love my paul mini motos(dont have a bike that has studs anymore, so theyre sitting in my parts bin). Insane braking power for rim brakes.. I never liked cantis but thats just my opinion. PITA to set up cantis and they squeal/shudder, but thats prob just a 'me' problem. :)

[Hellgate]

Paul's cantis and Record 10 levers have served me well.1697988645

[vqdriver]

i understood the only drawback with min-vs were mud clearance for racers. otherwise, v brakes are the better option. better control, more power, easier setup. cool factor is up to the owner i suppose, but i'd never go back to cantis. even when i had em i hated em.

[Mark McM]

i understood the only drawback with min-vs were mud clearance for racers. otherwise, v brakes are the better option. better control, more power, easier setup. cool factor is up to the owner i suppose, but i'd never go back to cantis. even when i had em i hated em.

Mini-Vs have limited time clearance, and usually won't work with fenders. While Mini-Vs will work with cyclocross tires (33mm maximum width), they may not work with the fat (40mm +) tires that are becoming common today. Cantilevers have far more tire and fender clearance. (Traditional MTB V-brakes have more tire clearance, but they have too high a ratio to work well with road levers.)

[PacNW2Ford]

I'm moving some parts around, thinning the herd a bit, and am wondering about performance of traditional (Paul, Spooky) cantilever brakes versus linear brakes (TRP CX8.4).

The bike in question are cyclocross, although I'm only riding them casually these days, no racing. Most riding is in dry, sometimes dusty or sandy conditions. Levers are Campy Ergo.

If you were setting up a new rim brake 'cross bike, with Campy Ergo levers, would you go canti or linear? Why?

Disc is not an option on these bikes. :(

Thanks!

Do both. I am running a Mini-moto up front and a Touring Canti out back. Works fine and both have plenty of room for fenders (Mini-Moto’s have curved arms). No real technical reason, just thought it would be fun to have a traditional canti on the rear. The front MM is very effective.

[benb]

I have CX9s, which are no longer available, and I think I will have to go with CX8.4s next time.

The 9s are not a problem with up to 38c tires + Fenders in my experience/on my bike. The 8.4x might be a problem. I have 32c tires on that bike right now though, and I'm fairly certain 32c + fenders + CX8.4s would work.

Haven't tried the Pauls. I find the Mini-Vs to be terribly fiddly, and Cantis even more fiddly and demanding. They all change geometry as the pads wear, and Cantis have the added annoyance of changing their mechanical ratio as the pads wear. Annoying stuff.

I'd vote Mini-Vs any day. I typically just have to adjust the left-right balance of my CX9s as the pads wear and I turn the barrel adjuster that adjusts cable tension. Otherwise performance is pretty consistent. I had Tektro CR720s before the CX9s and I found them to be a lot worse. I was constantly wasting time trying to keep them providing decent power as the pads wore. And they pretty much never matched the CX9s even if the CR720s were having their best day ever and the CX9s were having a bad day.

Maybe the Pauls are great, but they're expensive, and they're still Cantis. Not something I'd be interested to try.

A lot of Canti expectations seem to be based on cross where a lot of guys just flop down in the mud if the brakes have too much power. A general suggestion that the bike should slow down sometimes seem preferable there and there's usually not mega elevation change.

[p nut]

Best cantilever brakes I've used is Avid Ult Shorty's. Great for clearance, both mud and fender. Other than that, Paul Mini Moto's are much better. Mine clears 42's easily. One finger braking other than super steep descents.

[jtbadge]

No tire clearance issues with CX8.4 or MiniMoto running 43c or even bigger tires. Your frame and fork are going to be the limiting factor. Braking power and set up are great with both, and are compatible with all brands of brake lever/shifter.

No reason to go with cantis besides aesthetics, IMO. And don't bother with the CX9, the arms are too long for road levers/shifters.

[charliedid]

Do both. I am running a Mini-moto up front and a Touring Canti out back. Works fine and both have plenty of room for fenders (Mini-Moto’s have curved arms). No real technical reason, just thought it would be fun to have a traditional canti on the rear. The front MM is very effective.

How large a fender with the Mini-moto?

[pdmtong]

once I started using my CX more for wet or winter or fun (not racing) my canti's got sold. IMHO the only place they were better than TRP 8.4 was in heavy mud on race day.

you want to lock up the rear tire? get a 8.4. you can squeeze your lever to the bar and a canti wont do that.

[Peter P.]

I believe cantilever brakes more readily match the pull ratio of typical road levers making it easier to choose levers you prefer.

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

[tctyres]

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

This is incorrect. Mini-V's work fine with road levers. These have arm lengths of 85mm or less. Sometimes, a regular V-brake with a longer arm works fine, too.

[pdmtong]

I believe cantilever brakes more readily match the pull ratio of typical road levers making it easier to choose levers you prefer.

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

This statement is not accurate, at least with the TRP 9 or TRP 8.4 choices. those are made specifically with shimano or campy/sram cable pull in mind

[Mark McM]

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

This statement is true only for standard (MTB) V-brakes. To better match road levers, Mini-V brakes were developed, which require a smaller lever travel than standard V-brakes. (The downside of mini-V brakes is that they don't have as much tire clearance as standard V-brakes.)

The leverage ratio of the different brake types (roughly):

High profile cantilever brakes: Between 0.7:1
Low profile cantilever brakes: 1:1
Single pivot caliper brakes: 1:1
Dual pivot caliper brakes: 1.6:1
Direct mount caliper brakes: 2:1
Mini-V brakes: 2:1
Standard V-brakes: 3:1

[scopes]

I have both the TRP CX 8.4 and the a Paul Touring Canti/Neo Retro Combo on two different bikes. CX (8.4) and touring (Pauls) - both using Koolstop Salmon pads.

Modulation is better on the canti's but I find stopping power much better with the 8.4s. I have to grab a handful of brake to lock up the rear on my X0-3 with the Pauls and imagine it would be difficult to brake with adequate power using brifters. No issues locking up/endo with 8.4 and brifter.

For adjustability, slight edge to the 8.4 as they were easier to set up.

Durability seems to be on par, as I've run the Pauls for 2 years and 8.4 ~1 year.

The Pauls have better clearance, and I'm able to run fenders on that bike because of it.

In summary: 8.4 less modulation, more power and the opposite with the cantis.

[notsew]

I have cx8.4s, they replaced shorty ultimates. This is my race bike and I have never once wished I still had the cantis. In my opinion, there is no worse brake than a cantilever. When I think about the hours of my life I wasted fiddling with those crappy brakes, it still makes me mad. Sure, they work fine when they are set up correctly, but you ride it once, wear the pads a bit and they are no longer set up correctly.

You need true wheels for the mini-v's, but that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation.

Out of cross season I use this bike for gravel, and around here gravel means straight up and straight down. The mini-v's work like a dream (compared to canti's which could be a bit terrifying at times). Disc would obviously be better, but its not enough to make me want a different bike.

[pdmtong]

I have both the TRP CX 8.4 and the a Paul Touring Canti/Neo Retro Combo on two different bikes. CX (8.4) and touring (Pauls) - both using Koolstop Salmon pads.

Modulation is better on the canti's but I find stopping power much better with the 8.4s. I have to grab a handful of brake to lock up the rear on my X0-3 with the Pauls and imagine it would be difficult to brake with adequate power using brifters. No issues locking up/endo with 8.4 and brifter.

For adjustability, slight edge to the 8.4 as they were easier to set up.

Durability seems to be on par, as I've run the Pauls for 2 years and 8.4 ~1 year.

The Pauls have better clearance, and I'm able to run fenders on that bike because of it.

In summary: 8.4 less modulation, more power and the opposite with the cantis.

^ this is true...some people say they are a little bit more on/off than you would get from canti - I would describe it more like the amount of lever throw between off and full on is a lot less. you can modulate it but need to be more accurate with your hand.

[bfd]

My experience is that mini v brakes are far superior to canti brakes when using Campy shifters. I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two. I was fed up! I went into my lbs and they sold me a $20 tektro 926al Mini v brake and behold, I had stopping power! No squeal, no shudder, just squeeze the lever and stop! I tossed the crappy suntour brake!

Note, I was later told about a device that might have made the canti front brake work. Supposedly for about the same money, you can get a fork cable hanger for a canti brake they will eliminate the shuddering, squealing and lack of power. I think you can get this for like $15-20:

https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/tektro/br245k02.jpg

Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

[PacNW2Ford]

How large a fender with the Mini-moto?

The brake isn’t the limiting factor on my bike. The brake opening is larger than the fork opening. I estimate I could easily run a 54mm fender over 42’s with room to spare.

[GoldenUnicorn]

There isn't any doubt in my mind that V brakes are far superior. The mini-V's even work fine in mud.

As I always told my customers, if you need to slow down, cantis are fine. If you want to actually stop, its a V or GTFO.

[Burning Pines]

I had tektro mini vees cable rub on a wtb nano (40mm) on the back of one bike but not the front so I guess it depends on stud placement. That’s all I got.

[kingpin75s]

I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two.

Canti brakes worked fine in rear but not front. Sounds like flex in the fork steerer tube. Most common cause I have found for issues with a Canti brake up front. Light fork with a carbon steerer tube possibly?

[bfd]

Canti brakes worked fine in rear but not front. Sounds like flex in the fork steerer tube. Most common cause I have found for issues with a Canti brake up front. Light fork with a carbon steerer tube possibly?

I agree that a canti brake in the rear was fine. In the front, not so much. There may have been flex in the fork, but I had a steel fork with steel steerer tube so don’t know if that was the cause of all the shuddering, squealing and lack of power requiring constant adjustments. In contrast, once I put on the cheapie tektro Mini v brake, instant braking! Ymmv! Good Luck!

[jc031699]

My experience is that mini v brakes are far superior to canti brakes when using Campy shifters. I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two. I was fed up! I went into my lbs and they sold me a $20 tektro 926al Mini v brake and behold, I had stopping power! No squeal, no shudder, just squeeze the lever and stop! I tossed the crappy suntour brake!

Note, I was later told about a device that might have made the canti front brake work. Supposedly for about the same money, you can get a fork cable hanger for a canti brake they will eliminate the shuddering, squealing and lack of power. I think you can get this for like $15-20:

https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/tektro/br245k02.jpg

Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!



That may relieve the shuddering but probably not the squealing and lack of power. Lennard Zinn has written a lot about steerer/stem mounted canti cable stops vs these lower fork mounted ones.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jc031699]

This statement is true only for standard (MTB) V-brakes. To better match road levers, Mini-V brakes were developed, which require a smaller lever travel than standard V-brakes. (The downside of mini-V brakes is that they don't have as much tire clearance as standard V-brakes.)



The leverage ratio of the different brake types (roughly):



High profile cantilever brakes: Between 0.7:1

Low profile cantilever brakes: 1:1

Single pivot caliper brakes: 1:1

Dual pivot caliper brakes: 1.6:1

Direct mount caliper brakes: 2:1

Mini-V brakes: 2:1

Standard V-brakes: 3:1



This is incredibly helpful and revealing.

Thank you-

What do you make of all the talk about mechanical advantage being the inverse of actual stopping power? I.e. firm feeling brakes stop worse and mushy feeling brakes stop better?

In my experience high profile cantis are mushier and stop worse. Maybe my grip strength is the issue...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peanutgallery]

This thread is like reading an argument over the nuances of different sail materials for wooden, 19th century cargo ships:)

Get a bike with hydro disc and don't look back. You can thank me later

[AngryScientist]

This thread is like reading an argument over the nuances of different sail materials for wooden, 19th century cargo ships:)

Get a bike with hydro disc and don't look back. You can thank me later

your shtick is getting really old. seriously.

[peanutgallery]

Truth be told, I'm cantilever sensitive

your shtick is getting really old. seriously.

[Jad]

I've been using cantilevers for CX and dirt road riding and have been fine with the stopping power; I just adjust as pads wear, which I don't mind doing. Toe-in! For the past few seasons I've used TRP CR950s.

On my current setup, I've never had shudder--it's an ENVE fork with the cable coming down from a head tube hanger (not a fork mounted one).

I would love to try some Mini Motos or Paul touring cantis to compare stiffness with my CR950s.

[kingpin75s]

I agree that a canti brake in the rear was fine. In the front, not so much. There may have been flex in the fork, but I had a steel fork with steel steerer tube so don’t know if that was the cause of all the shuddering, squealing and lack of power requiring constant adjustments. In contrast, once I put on the cheapie tektro Mini v brake, instant braking! Ymmv! Good Luck!

Yeah. Never had shudder issues with a steel fork and steerer so you were working with a pretty solid baseline it would seem. YMMV for sure.

[charliedid]

My experience is that mini v brakes are far superior to canti brakes when using Campy shifters. I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two. I was fed up! I went into my lbs and they sold me a $20 tektro 926al Mini v brake and behold, I had stopping power! No squeal, no shudder, just squeeze the lever and stop! I tossed the crappy suntour brake!

Note, I was later told about a device that might have made the canti front brake work. Supposedly for about the same money, you can get a fork cable hanger for a canti brake they will eliminate the shuddering, squealing and lack of power. I think you can get this for like $15-20:

https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/tektro/br245k02.jpg

Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

I went this route on my Gunnar Touring bike (Paul Touring Canti) that has a steel fork. I still get a bit of squeal especially when wet. I'd love to make it stop. I may also just buy a spork and build a TA Dyno front wheel. That should do it. That said, I may try a mini-moto but I can't see it fitting over the fender.

[GOTHBROOKS]

the only time my cantis ever squeal is if i screwed the pooch during a tubeless setup and let sealant get all over the brake track.
disc brakes are ugly.

[benb]

once I started using my CX more for wet or winter or fun (not racing) my canti's got sold. IMHO the only place they were better than TRP 8.4 was in heavy mud on race day.

you want to lock up the rear tire? get a 8.4. you can squeeze your lever to the bar and a canti wont do that.

This says it all for me! When someone has to post this it shows we're not all on the same page. We're not even in the same book.

The idea that you would have to grab a fistful of brake to lock the rear is crazy.. rear brakes are supposed to be easy to lock up. If the rear brake can't even be locked the brakes are just way way too weak.

Good brakes you should have lots of power to lock the rear. The front should have enough power to be able to lift the rear wheel off the ground if you get down in the drops and brake hard on dry pavement.

The dumb thing about "modulation vs power" is that if you are ever having to use a lot of your grip strength you lose the ability have fine motor control of the brake and your modulation goes out the window. And after a while you will have tired hands. Tired Hands = No modulation.

If your brakes have enough power you can use a light touch on the levers. It's better for the health of your hands/wrists. It means you can stay in control for longer which means better handling of the bike.

Doesn't anyone remember getting "forearm pump" MTBing back in the day where you weren't sure you were riding a bike vs doing pull ups? You used to spend so much effort squeezing rim brakes it trashed your arms till you couldn't squeeze anymore.

[colker]

This says it all for me! When someone has to post this it shows we're not all on the same page. We're not even in the same book.

The idea that you would have to grab a fistful of brake to lock the rear is crazy.. rear brakes are supposed to be easy to lock up. If the rear brake can't even be locked the brakes are just way way too weak.

Good brakes you should have lots of power to lock the rear. The front should have enough power to be able to lift the rear wheel off the ground if you get down in the drops and brake hard on dry pavement.

The dumb thing about "modulation vs power" is that if you are ever having to use a lot of your grip strength you lose the ability have fine motor control of the brake and your modulation goes out the window. And after a while you will have tired hands. Tired Hands = No modulation.

If your brakes have enough power you can use a light touch on the levers. It's better for the health of your hands/wrists. It means you can stay in control for longer which means better handling of the bike.

Doesn't anyone remember getting "forearm pump" MTBing back in the day where you weren't sure you were riding a bike vs doing pull ups? You used to spend so much effort squeezing rim brakes it trashed your arms till you couldn't squeeze anymore.

I had a bike w/ dia compe 987 cantis and cane creek road levers on a dirt drop bar. It was just perfect. Maybe it´s in the seatstays i don´t know but rear brake action was just perfect. I was told the leverage of drop bar levers increases a canti grab. All i know is that it worked better than any other v brake bike i had.

[p nut]

This thread is like reading an argument over the nuances of different sail materials for wooden, 19th century cargo ships:)

Get a bike with hydro disc and don't look back. You can thank me later

I actually went from Shimano hydraulics to Paul Mini Motos. Braking power is the same. But I live in the high desert and 99% of the time, it’s dry conditions.

Overall, very impressed with mini v’s.

[peanutgallery]

Pad life is probably an issue with organic disc with the desert silt and what not

I actually went from Shimano hydraulics to Paul Mini Motos. Braking power is the same. But I live in the high desert and 99% of the time, it’s dry conditions.

Overall, very impressed with mini v’s.

[Mark McM]

What do you make of all the talk about mechanical advantage being the inverse of actual stopping power? I.e. firm feeling brakes stop worse and mushy feeling brakes stop better?

In my experience high profile cantis are mushier and stop worse. Maybe my grip strength is the issue...

Mushiness (and modulation) depends on more variables than just leverage ratio. Stiffness, friction and linearity also matter. For example, depending on how they are set up, low-profile cantilevers may have a falling rate non-linear ratio, which can make for very poor modulation, and poor stopping force.

However, it is true that all else being equal, higher leverage brakes can have mushier feel than low leverage brakes. But that doesn't mean they have less braking force - in fact, it can be indication of more braking force (and may be an indication that the stiffness of the braking system doesn't match its leverage ratio).

[AngryScientist]

I just want to point out that I can lock my rear wheel to a skid on any of my canti equipped bikes in any condition.

[bshell]

Mini Vs changed my CX experience.

The original Paul's Neo Retro/Touring pair on my bike were abysmal.

[kingpin75s]

Mini Vs changed my CX experience.

The original Paul's Neo Retro/Touring pair on my bike were abysmal.

On the flip side, I have run Paul's Neo Retro/Touring pairs on multiple cross bikes since 2012. I use 8 speed Dura Ace levers with a spring return and Jagwire compressionless housing. They brake and modulate well with 2 fingers. No issues on power, modulation or finger fatigue.

Lever choice, housing type, yoke height all play in as significant factors when setting up Canti's. The amount of variables I feel plays into the vastly different experiences people have.

That said, a front Canti has no place on a bike with a steerer that flexes (Carbon and Ti mostly in my experience) as that is generally the top reason for front brake shudder. Learned that quickly with my first try setting up in 2012 with the Paul's Neo Retro/Touring pair and an Ouzo Pro CX fork up front. Same issue with a Morati fork. Put on a Vicious Cycles steel CX fork and never looked back.

YMMV and all that.

[p nut]

I just want to point out that I can lock my rear wheel to a skid on any of my canti equipped bikes in any condition.

I think you can lock up any rear wheel on any decent brake. Side pulls, u brake, roller cam. It's the effort needed to lock them up that makes the difference.

[benb]

I agree Mini-Vs have pretty good power but they only have it when everything is clean & new & setup quite nicely and conditions are not wet/muddy. Mini-Vs IMO require less attention than Cantis to keep them constantly working at peak performance but still more than full size Vs and way less than hydro discs.

Road Hydro discs are still not as good as MTB hydro discs.. I still feel like road hydro discs have room to improve.

If you look at the absolute best full size V-brakes ever made for MTBs they were better than the best Mini-Vs. But the best full size V-brakes are still pretty terrible compared to most hydro disc MTB systems.

The discs are just more consistent, more powerful, and they stay that way through more weather and through more of the lifetime of the system with less maintenance.

We are still really hampered by the shift/brake integrated levers on the road bikes and the use of the hood position.. the whole thing with MTBs is the levers put you in a better hand position to actually use the brakes. The drop position on a road bike is great but the hoods are terrible for braking.

I can certainly lock the rear wheel with my CX9 Mini-Vs. I just feel like I have to tweak them at least once a month as they wear to keep them working that well... I was just remarking no one should settle for not having at least that level of power. And they are not as good as when they were brand new. Mine are almost due for replacement.. I have had 3 sets, they always degrade as they get older even with constant maintenance/tweaking.

[bshell]

Wait, not just the pads, but your actual brake arms need replacing?

That's wild. I've had the CX9s since they came out and see no degradation whatsoever. And they've worked well in all conditions.

[C40_guy]

And they are not as good as when they were brand new. Mine are almost due for replacement.. I have had 3 sets, they always degrade as they get older even with constant maintenance/tweaking.

Unlike any of my canti brake sets, the TRP CX have play on the canti bosses. Even with the mounting bolt tight, they have play. Multiple sets show this, on a variety of steel and carbon forks, and on multiple frames.

When I first installed them, TRP support confirmed that this was normal.

But it's weird.

[pdmtong]

I just want to point out that I can lock my rear wheel to a skid on any of my canti equipped bikes in any condition.
with one finger, easily?


I can certainly lock the rear wheel with my CX9 Mini-Vs. I just feel like I have to tweak them at least once a month as they wear to keep them working that well... I was just remarking no one should settle for not having at least that level of power. And they are not as good as when they were brand new. Mine are almost due for replacement.. I have had 3 sets, they always degrade as they get older even with constant maintenance/tweaking.
I noticed my 8.4s degrading, couldn't figure out why. pads had a lot of thickness left. However, once I did change the pads, whoa. just like new again.


I certainly see why folks love their canti's. but if I am asked, it's min v-brake all the way between those two choices.