Oldie but goodie -

[David Kirk]

It seems that every few years I somehow stumble on this video and when I do there's no fricken way I can just pass by and not watch it.

I see a good bit of my dad in this man and by extension just a sliver of myself - I'll bet some of you see your dad or grandfather too.

Blue collar work is noble vital work and this gentleman exemplifies that perfectly. I wish I could meet him and buy him a beer and talk about the important stuff.

Many of you will have seen this but if you haven't I feel strongly that you'd have a hard time finding a better use of a few minutes.

Dave

https://vimeo.com/16435404

[Dekonick]

But I am still learning and always will be.

:banana:

[AngryScientist]

yea, thanks for that Dave.

Hits home for me from a lot of angles, for sure.

I lost my dad this year, at the age of 94. This vid certainly reminds me a lot him in many ways.

cheers.

[paredown]

Thanks for that--reminds me of my dad as well--another tin basher and welder, although more punch presses and less work on the brake...

[2LeftCleats]

Nice. Thanks for sharing. My observation, at east anecdotally, is that tradespeople are a dying breed. Seems every auto mechanic, plumber, carpenter, and HVAC person I’ve hired laments the difficulty finding someone to help as they age out. I think the idea of college being the surest way to financial security has been oversold. Sometimes it works the other way. The last plumber I used had a masters in English lit and a math PhD decided his real passion was working on foreign cars.

[Dekonick]

Nice. Thanks for sharing. My observation, at east anecdotally, is that tradespeople are a dying breed. Seems every auto mechanic, plumber, carpenter, and HVAC person I’ve hired laments the difficulty finding someone to help as they age out. I think the idea of college being the surest way to financial security has been oversold. Sometimes it works the other way. The last plumber I used had a masters in English lit and a math PhD decided his real passion was working on foreign cars.

THIS! What kills me is that everyone assumes tradespeople are uneducated. Everyone pushes kids to go get a 4 year degree when they can get started on a trade. There is no rule that states you can't pursue a degree (or just learn...) after you are a master in a trade. Why are they seen as mutually exclusive?

[AngryScientist]

i have been telling everyone who will listen that here in 2019, i think there has never been a better opportunity for talented people to make a very good living without a college education.

a good plumber, electrician, contractor, carpenter, etc - who has good job skills, coupled with some decent administrative aptitude could make a killing right now.

[Tandem Rider]

Thanks Dave, this hit pretty close to home for me. I do the same trade (HVACR) my Dad did, I apprenticed under him, my son is 23 and just started his apprenticeship this summer in the same trade. It's hard to find kids who want to do a good job and are willing to work. We have a 5 man shop here, 3 of us are over 55.

[wc1934]

yup -dying breed. As he stated they young kids dont want to get their hands dirty (apprenticeships in all the trades are wanting). And when the oldtimers die all that knowledge and know how is gone as well.

[XXtwindad]

i have been telling everyone who will listen that here in 2019, i think there has never been a better opportunity for talented people to make a very good living without a college education.

a good plumber, electrician, contractor, carpenter, etc - who has good job skills, coupled with some decent administrative aptitude could make a killing right now.

I think this is probably true.

[oliver1850]

Nice. Thanks for sharing. My observation, at east anecdotally, is that tradespeople are a dying breed. Seems every auto mechanic, plumber, carpenter, and HVAC person I’ve hired laments the difficulty finding someone to help as they age out. I think the idea of college being the surest way to financial security has been oversold. Sometimes it works the other way. The last plumber I used had a masters in English lit and a math PhD decided his real passion was working on foreign cars.

Add farmers to that list. When I was a kid, all dad had to do to get help baling or pitching manure was make a couple of calls and he'd have all the high school kids he needed. Now you can ask around all summer and not find anyone that wants to work.

[oliver1850]

The missing fingers hit home. I see guys that have been caught in machinery most every time I go to an auction. Yesterday I split firewood for seven or eight hours. When I quit I noticed that I had sheared off the tip of the left thumb of my glove. So close..

[Dekonick]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/decades-pushing-bachelors-degrees-u-s-needs-tradespeople?fbclid=IwAR1dG0xjxo5iLRab4_OorUaAXrCj pi0SruI2pCKwR6QL5cGs6hgOXtlRZrU

[gasman]

Great video Dave. I hadn’t seen it but I wonder if you don’t feel the same way about every bike you make, by hand, in your home shop.

It’s too bad almost no schools have shop class any more. I was lucky enough to have shop in middle and high school. There were guts , particularly in metal shop who were never going to step foot in a college classroom. Yet these guts were good with their hands and interested in learning about cars and metal work. They probably mostly went I to a trade and have done fine for themselves.

One of the guys I grew up with became an apprentice carpenter out of high school. We’ve been friends for over 50 years now and he’s had a career he’s enjoyed and has just retired at age 65 with good benefits. His latest employer is begging him to come back at his Supervisory position. He likely will as they want to give him a bigger bag of money to return.

I agree with the sentiments of the video and what others have said. It’s hard to find people that want to get into the trades nowadays. Not everyone needs a 4 year degree if your willing to learn at work hard.

[Peter B]

Nice. Thanks for sharing. My observation, at east anecdotally, is that tradespeople are a dying breed. Seems every auto mechanic, plumber, carpenter, and HVAC person I’ve hired laments the difficulty finding someone to help as they age out. I think the idea of college being the surest way to financial security has been oversold. Sometimes it works the other way. The last plumber I used had a masters in English lit and a math PhD decided his real passion was working on foreign cars.

There are tremendous opportunities for young people interested in the skilled trades. Yes, the field work is physical but in the current age we use sophisticated laser scanning, 3D spatial modeling, computer-driven fabrication, geo-based layout and live-linked real-time field data sources to supplement the muscle. An intelligent, motivated apprentice will have plenty of opportunity to explore technology in a real world application that delivers the satisfaction of seeing the tangible result of your efforts every day. A move to detailing, estimating or management will reduce physical wear and tear and likely increase income potential though the stress level tends to increase along with the income, as with most vocations.

Apprentices get paid to learn and don't 'turn out' owing six figures. Rather, they will complete their training earning six figures. A journeyman plumber, pipe-fitter, sheet metal worker or electrician in the greater bay area of Northern California is grossing around $200k/yr with modest OT. A solid general foreman earning bonuses can do much better.

[David Kirk]

One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.

I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work.

The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close.

The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months.

I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive.

I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost.

I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box.

That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it.

dave

[thwart]

Well said.

That video is a powerful piece.

[XXtwindad]

One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.

I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work.

The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close.

The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months.

I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive.

I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost.

I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box.

That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it.

dave

This is an interesting post. Lots to digest here. It's not often the "welding mask" comes off and we get an unvarnished looks at some of the struggles facing frame builders. So, kudos and thanks for that.

I would definitely add teachers to the bolded list above. Is any profession more integral to the success of out society and less underpaid/undervalued?

But we live in a world that monetizes privacy and narcissism (Facebook, Twitter, etc...) rather than compensating teachers and artisans. Most of the clients are I train are in tech-related fields. It's a complicated problem with no easy solutions.

[echappist]

This is an interesting post. Lots to digest here. It's not often the "welding mask" comes off and we get an unvarnished looks at some of the struggles facing frame builders. So, kudos and thanks for that.

I would definitely add teachers to the bolded list above. Is any profession more integral to the success of out society and less underpaid/undervalued?

But we live in a world that monetizes privacy and narcissism (Facebook, Twitter, etc...) rather than compensating teachers and artisans. Most of the clients are I train are in tech-related fields. It's a complicated problem with no easy solutions.

hear, hear

i would add to your list health aides, nursing assistants, and possibly some nurses as well

literally cares for the health and well being of society, yet so often undervalued

[Dekonick]

One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.

I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work.

The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close.

The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months.

I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive.

I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost.

I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box.

That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it.

dave

This touches deep in my soul. My father in law is such a man. Engineer, but built boats by hand with his father. Knows his way around a machine shop - Not new stuff, I mean Bridgeport tools... no computers... everything done by hand. Gears in the lathe changed by hand. All of it. I wish I could learn it from him. I have gained a ton of knowledge, but most of what he knows will pass on when he dies. His collection of hand tools alone - if they could speak... This is a man who was out testing nuclear subs and wanted to fish... so he stripped a cable, machined a lure, and they ate fresh mahi that night... off of the stern of a support ship. No one thought it would work... Lots of stories like this. A drake tail fishing boat in the St. Michaels museum named for his dad after he built it as a heritage project in an attempt to preserve the techniques used to build the wooden boats on the Chesapeake. We have lost much of our rocketry knowledge when the engineers all retired and NASA cancelled pretty much all of our space program. Look around and it is everywhere. Who is going to teach the kids? Sure, we can do it again. Re-learn, re-discover... but it sure is nice to watch apprenticeship unfold and student become master. I am sure Ben Serotta felt that way as he had young kids burning torches under his eye... learning. But Dave is right - the true time it would take compared to what the market will pay makes it almost impossible to have an apprentice. Times have changed. It is society that will lose out.

[Nomadmax]

When a guy like that says "I can make/fix that no problem", you breathe a sigh of relief because it's as good as done.

[Tandem Rider]

One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.

I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work.

The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close.

The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months.

I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive.

I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost.

I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box.

That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it.

dave
Experience is where the builder/tradesperson learns HOW to make money and conversely how to stay away from not making money. It takes years of experience to learn that one can't work for free just because it's a cool project. I had a a Journeyman tell me one time, back in the '80s when the trades were in a real depression, "As soon as you are willing to work for nothing, that's exactly what you're worth", I never forgot that. I know that it's possible to take a course in frame building, are these folks taking a course and hanging out their shingle? If so, they are missing out on all of the other lessons and skills that make up a tradesperson.

I see craftspeople selling their work all the time, often it's as you described, worried about the next meal. I'm not sure if it's because they feel like their work isn't worth it and are doing it for the love of their craft, or they haven't paid their dues and work slow, or if the buyers don't think hand work is worth it, forcing the craftsperson to compete with factory automation.

[DRZRM]

You said a mouthful there Dave, my best friend runs a metal shop in Brooklyn, NY. He does architectural installations, stairs, railings, doors, etc. and he has a hard time hiring good help and realistically contemplating ever retiring...god forbid he is ever seriously injured.

I know it is not the only issue you raise, but what jumps out to me is what we in the U.S. are expected to spend on healthcare, childcare, etc. I know it boarders on politics talk, but if you balanced out that nearly $12,000 average spent indirectly or directly per U.S. family on healthcare, and funded childcare, both things done by most industrial countries, it would allowed way more people to be self employed without fear of being bankrupted by any health crisis.

All of it, the video, your story about the true cost of building luxury bikes, my friend's metalwork career, it all make me sad...and fearful for this country's future.

[NHAero]

I work for a employee-owned architecture/engineering/construction/cabinetry/renewables firm. Our good trades subs have trouble finding good HVAC techs, electricians, plumbers, etc., even though these are good paying jobs. We've had three of our five carpentry foremen retire in the past couple of years, with an incredible wealth of experience. Of our four cabinet shop folks, only one is under 60.

I work daily with a 40 year old who is French and was educated as a plumbing/heating/solar tradesperson in the Compagnons de Devoir program. Eight years of schooling, both field and classroom. I've never met an American in the HVAC field remotely as skilled as he is, and he's a better engineer than 95% of the engineers I've worked with in 40 years (I'm a mech engineer by licensure.) I feel really fortunate to work with him, as I have someone to pass on my experience to. I have another "mentee", totally different education path, about the same age, degrees in architecture and engineering. He's always hungry for learning stuff hands-on. Between the two of them I feel there will be an ongoing benefit to the field when I hang it up.

The other observation in the video, about computers - the ubiquity of computers in engineering education seems to have resulted in a generation of engineers without much hands-on experience, which is invaluable to both understanding and appreciating the tradespeople who implement the systems they design.

[chris7ed]

Money can be made if you own the business but you won't do that well as an employee. On the east coast not many tradesmen will earn more than $25/hr. That's not a lot for physical work.

[David Kirk]

As you might imagine I've spent more time than most thinking about this issue. Unlike some I don't think this is a bike-biz thing - I feel that if you were to lurk on handbuilt furniture or custom saddle/tack forums that you'd see something very similar.

I think the low pay earned by all but a very, very few in the handbuilt bike industry can be attributed to a few different things....in no particular order -



- the deep understanding of what goes into something handmade just isn't there in our current society. It used to be that more people dabbled in making something and this gave them a little insight into what it takes for a pro to turn out professional work. It takes real skill and lots of time and most people envision a lever being pulled and a frame sliding out of a complicated machine and into the box with its shipping label already applied. My neighbor has a doctorate degree (bio-med) and when he first heard what I did for a living he said he wanted to come over some time and "watch you make one". Very cool he was interested. When I told him that it takes the better part of a week he was simply puzzled. He eventually came over once and stayed about 20 minutes before proclaiming "that looks like really hard work" and then moved on. Not what he expected. If he couldn't grasp all the time and effort and skill involved how could be justify the cost?

- framebuilders, like many craftsmen, don't value their own work and time as they should. I can't fully put my finger on why this is but it certainly is. I've advised lots of builders over the years and invariably the most important topic is pricing. I ask them to add up the hours they spend on a frame and set an hourly rate to come up with the labor dollars. Then add up all the materials and add to that the overhead and come up with a final price. The price is almost always much higher than what they have been charging. One would think this might prompt many to raise their prices to a living wage but it almost never does. In the end most will tell me that they "just didn't feel right about charging so much". I have no cure for this. I have seen top shelf builders put 200 hours(!) into a super fancy frame and then sell if for $5000. At first glance this doesn't seem bad but when you consider that all the metal for the frameset cost them about $700 and the paint (with lots of masking for fancy stainless lugs) is a solid $1000 which leaves $3300. Add to this the cost of liability insurance per bike ($80ish), shipping to/from paint ($100), expendables like blades and sanding stuff ($70 per frame) and we are now down to $3050. Now divide that by 200hrs and you get $15/hr. I can walk into the McDonalds here and make more than that and this doesn't even consider major expenses like rent and power. Looked at another way the builder can make a bike a month and for this pocket $3000 gross (not net).....now pull out $1000/month rent and you're now looking at closer to $2000/month for their time and skill. And if they have worked 7 days a week trying to sell enough of these on social media they will be able to build 10 a year. This makes $20K a year. This is very rough and generalized but the numbers are not far off. So the guy posting that awesome rando bike with all the bells and whistles is making less than the person who hands you your lunch through the drive through window. - - A number of years ago veteran builder Brent Steelman said publicly that he was quitting because he couldn't make a living. There was much outcry - "you can't quit! We love your bikes!" - and as a last ditch effort he doubled his prices so that he could make ends meet and he sold just a few before the orders died up. He now sells classic Oriental Rugs and makes MUCH more money. His efforts were driven home in a big way to every f-builder in the USA. We all learned a lesson.


- One reason people price their goods the way they do is that they have a perceived place in the hierarchy of their niche. In other words if the top guys are charging $XXXX this means that they need to charge less. This makes sense. But there is an issue - so many of the builders we revere in the USA do not need to make their living from f-building. Many have family money and others have spouses who earn a solid check and health insurance so these guys can set their prices artificially low. Don't get me wrong....if you have old money good for you. I wouldn't mind having some family money to live on while making artisan bikes. The same with those whose wives are highly paid - good for them. But....(you knew there was a 'but') if they set the ceiling at $4500 for the very most sought after frames the newer guys need to take much less. It's a race to the bottom. There's no way these guys can make a living....they can't charge more than the top guys and they can't live on considerable less. Rock and a hard place.

------------------------------------------


One thing I've learned over the decades is that it's a real turn-off for regular folks and potential clients to read stuff like this. Most like to think that everyone's doing well and they can ogle their handmade goods and praise the high level of skill and it feels good. We enjoy it as spectators and fans if you will. Thinking about the truth of the matter that most builders are not doing well and that so very many have called it quits or are working at bike shops or Lowes on the side to make ends meet is a bummer. Most understandably don't want to hear it - it ruins the storybook image of the craftsman happily working away while their family is enjoying a modest home and a good meal. So it's with no small amount of apprehension that I post this. I only feel confident in doing so because my reputation is well established and I can take the sizeable risk in doing so. I'm sorry to be a downer but the reality on this side of the fence isn't as it should be....or how it needs to be to be lasting..


The handbuilt niche is shrinking. The number of units is down and the number of suppliers (not understanding how little money there is to be made) is up. This is of course unsustainable. Things are going to get really small in the future and many will wonder what happened. I don't know what, if anything, can be done about it but I know the future is not so bright that we'll need to wear shades.

Thank you as always for reading.

dave

[benb]

I'm yes and no on this stuff.. some of it is looking backwards without looking forwards.

His fabrication techniques are fine to let die if a new process is invented that obsoletes the way he's doing things. He mentioned laser cutting has already obsoleted his skills for large scale production, and that laser cutting produces an amazing result, but that he works on jobs that are too small for it to be worthwhile to set up laser cutting.

Well the flipside is he might not have learned to program the laser cutter. If his skills die out, someone else will figure out how to rapidly program a laser cutter to do 1-piece jobs. Someone from a younger generation might be more enthusiastic about figuring things out that way.

The space program & welding were mentioned. I've read a fair amount about this, one of the interesting ones was talk about building a new Saturn V. NASA was absolutely sure you can't hire enough skilled welders to build the Saturn 5 again the way it was built in the 60s. But the engineers can adapt the design to build it without an army of skilled welders, so if they really wanted to build one they can still do it. Just a question of updating the manufacturing to reflect current methods.

I think an awful lot of this stuff is your environment. I think a lot of these really skilled machinists/tradespeople probably do have the natural talent/intelligence to be engineers too. Your background growing up is going to influence which way you go. Unfortunately it seems like you need to be born a bit more into privilege to go the engineering route.

We have a history of this stuff in my Dad's family where there were 2 or 3 generations of skilled trades & then my Dad ended up going to college with no support from his father to become an engineer. In the 60s you could go to college & afford it even if your parents refused to sign the financial aid paperwork or help out with tuition. But my Dad went and got his BS & MS in Mechanical engineering and obviously supported me going to college & my siblings going to college. Out of 4 kids 2 of us are engineers and one is a scientist. Today if your parents refused to help you I don't see how you get through college in engineering unless you're like top 0.01% of HS students and end up with a free ride somewhere. Everything is just so damn expensive.

Flipside is I think schools are not doing a good job preparing/encouraging students to think about the trades OR engineering/science. The "tech" stuff being done in high schools is not the right kind of stuff, no different from if you had really bad shop class.

Interesting Serotta really tried to move into all this hyper modern manufacturing & got it wrong. But I wonder what happens when stuff moves a bit further forward. It's going to be really interesting if 3D printing suddenly makes custom bikes feasible for a Trek or Specialized at scale.

[XXtwindad]

As you might imagine I've spent more time than most thinking about this issue. Unlike some I don't think this is a bike-biz thing - I feel that if you were to lurk on handbuilt furniture or custom saddle/tack forums that you'd see something very similar.

I think the low pay earned by all but a very, very few in the handbuilt bike industry can be attributed to a few different things....in no particular order -



- the deep understanding of what goes into something handmade just isn't there in our current society. It used to be that more people dabbled in making something and this gave them a little insight into what it takes for a pro to turn out professional work. It takes real skill and lots of time and most people envision a lever being pulled and a frame sliding out of a complicated machine and into the box with its shipping label already applied. My neighbor has a doctorate degree (bio-med) and when he first heard what I did for a living he said he wanted to come over some time and "watch you make one". Very cool he was interested. When I told him that it takes the better part of a week he was simply puzzled. He eventually came over once and stayed about 20 minutes before proclaiming "that looks like really hard work" and then moved on. Not what he expected. If he couldn't grasp all the time and effort and skill involved how could be justify the cost?

- framebuilders, like many craftsmen, don't value their own work and time as they should. I can't fully put my finger on why this is but it certainly is. I've advised lots of builders over the years and invariably the most important topic is pricing. I ask them to add up the hours they spend on a frame and set an hourly rate to come up with the labor dollars. Then add up all the materials and add to that the overhead and come up with a final price. The price is almost always much higher than what they have been charging. One would think this might prompt many to raise their prices to a living wage but it almost never does. In the end most will tell me that they "just didn't feel right about charging so much". I have no cure for this. I have seen top shelf builders put 200 hours(!) into a super fancy frame and then sell if for $5000. At first glance this doesn't seem bad but when you consider that all the metal for the frameset cost them about $700 and the paint (with lots of masking for fancy stainless lugs) is a solid $1000 which leaves $3300. Add to this the cost of liability insurance per bike ($80ish), shipping to/from paint ($100), expendables like blades and sanding stuff ($70 per frame) and we are now down to $3050. Now divide that by 200hrs and you get $15/hr. I can walk into the McDonalds here and make more than that and this doesn't even consider major expenses like rent and power. Looked at another way the builder can make a bike a month and for this pocket $3000 gross (not net).....now pull out $1000/month rent and you're now looking at closer to $2000/month for their time and skill. And if they have worked 7 days a week trying to sell enough of these on social media they will be able to build 10 a year. This makes $20K a year. This is very rough and generalized but the numbers are not far off. So the guy posting that awesome rando bike with all the bells and whistles is making less than the person who hands you your lunch through the drive through window. - - A number of years ago veteran builder Brent Steelman said publicly that he was quitting because he couldn't make a living. There was much outcry - "you can't quit! We love your bikes!" - and as a last ditch effort he doubled his prices so that he could make ends meet and he sold just a few before the orders died up. He now sells classic Oriental Rugs and makes MUCH more money. His efforts were driven home in a big way to every f-builder in the USA. We all learned a lesson.


- One reason people price their goods the way they do is that they have a perceived place in the hierarchy of their niche. In other words if the top guys are charging $XXXX this means that they need to charge less. This makes sense. But there is an issue - so many of the builders we revere in the USA do not need to make their living from f-building. Many have family money and others have spouses who earn a solid check and health insurance so these guys can set their prices artificially low. Don't get me wrong....if you have old money good for you. I wouldn't mind having some family money to live on while making artisan bikes. The same with those whose wives are highly paid - good for them. But....(you knew there was a 'but') if they set the ceiling at $4500 for the very most sought after frames the newer guys need to take much less. It's a race to the bottom. There's no way these guys can make a living....they can't charge more than the top guys and they can't live on considerable less. Rock and a hard place.

------------------------------------------


One thing I've learned over the decades is that it's a real turn-off for regular folks and potential clients to read stuff like this. Most like to think that everyone's doing well and they can ogle their handmade goods and praise the high level of skill and it feels good. We enjoy it as spectators and fans if you will. Thinking about the truth of the matter that most builders are not doing well and that so very many have called it quits or are working at bike shops or Lowes on the side to make ends meet is a bummer. Most understandably don't want to hear it - it ruins the storybook image of the craftsman happily working away while their family is enjoying a modest home and a good meal. So it's with no small amount of apprehension that I post this. I only feel confident in doing so because my reputation is well established and I can take the sizeable risk in doing so. I'm sorry to be a downer but the reality on this side of the fence isn't as it should be....or how it needs to be to be lasting..


The handbuilt niche is shrinking. The number of units is down and the number of suppliers (not understanding how little money there is to be made) is up. This is of course unsustainable. Things are going to get really small in the future and many will wonder what happened. I don't know what, if anything, can be done about it but I know the future is not so bright that we'll need to wear shades.

Thank you as always for reading.

dave

I disagree with this. I thinks it's a fascinating post. Going out on a limb (and you're not being controversial, just honest) is always interesting.

That said, the post raises just as many questions as it answers. I assume most people have a frame built with you because of your reputation, not because of pricing. If someone is going to spend $3,000 on a frame, than I'm guessing that they will fork over a few hundred extra dollars to have that frame built by someone they really trust/like/want to work with.

I selected two frame builders to work with. One has a sterling reputation, and the other (who is not as well known) seemed like an incredibly cool person. Those were the two factors that went into my decision.

In your experience, if a builder charging $3,000 for a frame, and another builder is charging $500 more, will that be the dealbreaker? I do understand that shops (Speedvagen, Moots for example) that have numerous employees have to take that into consideration for pricing. I choose to work with "one-man" operations.

[David Kirk]

I disagree with this. I thinks it's a fascinating post. Going out on a limb (and you're not being controversial, just honest) is always interesting.

That said, the post raises just as many questions as it answers. I assume most people have a frame built with you because of your reputation, not because of pricing. If someone is going to spend $3,000 on a frame, than I'm guessing that they will fork over a few hundred extra dollars to have that frame built by someone they really trust/like/want to work with.

I selected two frame builders to work with. One has a sterling reputation, and the other (who is not as well known) seemed like an incredibly cool person. Those were the two factors that went into my decision.

In your experience, if a builder charging $3,000 for a frame, and another builder is charging $500 more, will that be the dealbreaker? I do understand that shops (Speedvagen, Moots for example) that have numerous employees have to take that into consideration for pricing. I choose to work with "one-man" operations.

Thank you for the reply and for your understanding.

I see a few things from my side of the fence. Over time most of this stuff has gotten better but it's not altogether gone.

- I have people express general interest with an email or a call. We talk/write extensively going over what they want. I even see them post online how they love my work. And then the deal is never done. This is of course how it works....I talk with lots of people and build only a few bikes so that's natural. At the same time I see the very same person will post photos of their brand new brand X frame that just happens to be the type of build I was talking with them about. They understandably chose someone that will work for less. More than once the client chose another builder, had trouble with the quality of the work and then called me to ask what they should do about it. This does not make my day.

- In my very early days, when I needed each and every sale or I'd not make the mortgage, I'd have a potential client come to me and ask what I would build for them. They pushed and I stupidly relented and I would design their bike without a deposit. Then they would take that design to someone who would work for less and have it built. This happened a few times until I changed my policy and I no longer do any design work without a deposit - full stop. I still get asked but I say no and usually I never hear from this person ever again.

- One time, about 15 years ago, I had a guy ask if I'd build a frame with Sachs lugs. At the time I did so that was no problem. I was them asked if he could have it painted flam red and white (Sachs colors) and I told him that while we can paint it most any color that yes we could paint it those colors if he liked. I was then asked if I could leave the Kirk decals off - "I like a very clean bike" - was what I was told. I told him no. He obviously wanted a bike from a different builder who was more expensive than me at the time. He wanted a Sachs for less. I always suspected he was going to try to fit it with Sachs logos so that he could have a Sachs but I had no way to prove this. Once I told him 'no' on the artwork deal I never heard from him again. One can do the math on this one.


I could go on and on but you get the point.


So yes....I don't think it's usually about the amount of money being spent but it's about the idea of getting a deal. If I suddenly offered frames for $100 I'd get offers of $75. Human nature. People like to think they got top shelf goods for bargain basemen prices. We all like a deal. On the other hand without full fledged support the choices for a handbuilt bike will continue to dwindle and more and more will get real jobs that pay better and have health insurance. We can't have it all.

dave

[benb]

I really appreciate the business side being brought up too.

Totally different industry (independent video games) but it reminds me of this recent article by a guy who runs a game development company with his wife... he explains how the business decisions dictate what the games look like because he doesn't want to cover an artists salary and adding even a single extra employee could sink the whole thing.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JeffVogel/20190826/349426/Why_All_Of_Our_Games_Look_Like_Crap.php

I'd love to run my own business but it's stuff like this that makes it so hard. I'm sure I'd enjoy building software way more if I was in charge of it myself.. but the business model stuff is daunting without a killer product idea. And unlike bikes a piece of software has a ridiculous huge cost to build item #1 and then near 0 cost for every additional copy... so you really have to be able to make a leap to start.

[likebikes]

any suggestions for a younger man looking to get into the trades as a career?

i've applied lots of different places and have had no luck getting a response. does a college degree disqualify one from getting a position?

[David Kirk]

any suggestions for a younger man looking to get into the trades as a career?

i've applied lots of different places and have had no luck getting a response. does a college degree disqualify one from getting a position?

Am I correct in assuming that you wan to get into the bike biz? If so.....There was a time where all bikes were hand made in the traditional sense and there were lots of shops that employed people to build them. This is how i got my start at Serotta. When I started there I was one of 16 in the building and it grew rapidly to 60 over a few years. But then it, and most shops like it, closed or seriously downsized.

Finding a place that can employ a new guy and train them will be very tough. The number of shops out there big enough to do that is very small.

Does a degree help or hurt? It depends I think. On one hand it shows you can apply yourself and on the other the shop will worry that you'll get tired of blue collar wages after a year and bail....wasting huge amounts of money for them. So it depends.

dave

[NHAero]

It's a hard reality that we should fully understand.

When Dave Anderson was building my frame in 2012, he sent weekly links of photos of the construction process. Also, from my time working in the machine shop in college, I could see how much time was in this finished product. I felt he should be charging more and shared that with him. I think you'd find that many of us don't want someone to subsidize our recreation. That doesn't change the fact that if Dave charged $10,000 for that frame I wouldn't have one, so it doesn't change the fact that if framebuilders were making a decent living, most of us wouldn't be riding custom frames, so there would be fewer custom framebuilders.

I don't have a solution to this. My belief is that stuff has gotten cheap because we are good at externalizing costs (like pollution, for example) so labor looks more expensive. If we paid the real cost for getting those tubes to your door, they'd be a larger portion of the cost. Yet that drives the frame cost up even more.

snip
One thing I've learned over the decades is that it's a real turn-off for regular folks and potential clients to read stuff like this.
dave

[Clean39T]

This has been interesting reading, and I very much appreciate the time and thought that went into the posts here.

As I sit here typing this, 99% of the things in my field of view were made anonymously (to me) overseas, with the couple exceptions being the hammered silver ring on my finger, a small ceramic planter, and a little boutique candle in a recycled glass holder. If I got up and walked around my house, it'd be more of the same: even though I'd say I'm a more conscious consumer than most, prioritizing recycled and minimalist decor made from sustainable materials (lots of wood, stone, wool, and steel), very little of the throughput in my life comes from american hands being paid life-affirming wages. That's a problem, I suppose - but outside of things like dishes and some furniture, none of which I need to replace at this point, I don't know where I can make many other changes. Clothes? I already do what I can around food.

Back on topic - I couldn't be happier with my Kirk Frameworks bike - it has proved to be an incredible value and one of the best purchases/decisions I've made - after putting a few thousand miles on it, the returns are flowing in in spades....smiles per dollar invested will only continue to grow..

[colker]

What´s sad and ugly is that the money is at manipulating people´s perception of reality... not w/ making real things. Bankers, social media, political advice, branding: it´s all about creating illusion and the money at the illusion game is obscene. It won´t end well again.. and we know it.

[Dekonick]

Thank goodness for youtube and the like where at least many of these legends are at least leaving a trail for us to follow.

[Tandem Rider]

any suggestions for a younger man looking to get into the trades as a career?

i've applied lots of different places and have had no luck getting a response. does a college degree disqualify one from getting a position?

Take some courses at the local Community College. Basic electricity, welding, blueprint reading, etc. This will both show that you are serious, and you will need those skills anyway. A company is making a serious investment in someone when they hire a first year apprentice, they will do it, but they want to make sure it's the right person too.

[wc1934]

My take on this - we live in a throwaway society. I tried to get my hedge trimers repaired. Went to a Black n Decker store and was told I would be better served (cheaper and faster) to buy new ones as opposed to fixing them. I wish I had appreciated my fathers skills when I was growing up - if anything broke (washer, motors, machines - you name it and he fixed it).

But today we dont value craftsmanship (most smittys are gone - try to locate a tinsmith, a locksmith, etc.) and would rather have the newest latest and greatest plastic molded bike that we will sell in a few years as opposed to a hand crafted, custom forever bike. So sad!!!

[William]

I don't remember which forumite originally suggested this to me many years ago, but I will throw it out for consideration again. A very good read and on toipc for this thread...





W.

[bob heinatz]

I have really enjoyed this thread. Yes I am one who values blue collar workers and artisans that create bikes, jewelry, furniture, ect. I had Dave build me my dream bike earlier this year and like Clean mentioned it was worth every penny that I paid. I was one of the many tire kickers that Dave mentioned. Over the past 5 years I had contacted Kirk Frameworks numerous times with inquiries about a possible bike. Dave was always patient and polite. The fact is as I get older (66 & counting) I have appreciated more each year quality handmade items. The niche is shrinking and who will be left to carry the torch?

[Bob Ross]

the satisfaction of seeing the tangible result of your efforts every day.

In 1987 I worked for 6 months in an architectural millworking woodshop. I had absolutely no experience with woodworking, but my friend was the shop manager and I'd recently been laid off from a white-collar day job and the music gigs weren't particularly plentiful that year, so yadda-yadda...

As I -- and my employer -- quickly discovered, I had no aptitude for architectural millwork. Zero. But I just as quickly recognized that there is an incredibly gratifying feeling to build tangible objects with your hands during the work day. 5:00PM rolls around and you can point to a stack of stuff and say "I made that. That's what I did with my day."

No other job has ever given me quite that same feeling.

[soulspinner]

One of the points the gentleman makes in the video is that the hard earned knowledge and experience he has will most likely die with him. This is sad but true.

I'm sure the same will happen with me - when I retire and/or die the things I learned in 30+ years of framebuilding and 40+ years in the bike biz will go with me. This used to bother me a lot but in time I came to the realization that the work I do doesn't earn enough respect from enough people to justify the prices I'd need to charge if I took on help. I don't say this because I'd need to pay the apprentice but because my overall productivity would go down for a number of years while I spent a sizable chunk of my time teaching.....and the margins are just too low to make that work.

The simple fact of the matter is that even though so many look at the work that framebuilders (like so many other craftsman) do and generously heap praise on it not enough people are willing to truly pay for the time needed to build the product and certainly not enough to reflect the so many years it takes to learn to do it well. In the handbuilt bike biz all one needs to do it pull up the NAHBS entry list from 10 years ago and see how many are still building. The number of people that have given up building for a living is staggeringly high and I can assure you they didn't quit because they made so much money that the decided to retire early.....not even close.

The only way I've made it for so long, and now feel like one of the 'last men standing', is that I designed my biz from day one such that it would always be done from my home by myself. This means fewer machines and big tools that I'd love in exchange for no rent. If I had to set up a shop out of the house and pay rent I'd be done in 6 months.

I feel craftsman and framebuilders are important....the work they do matters to all of us. But generally speaking, we as a society don't value them enough to pay the price needed to give them a solid living where they can not worry about their next meal and also focus on giving back to their niche in terms of training new people to keep the craft alive.

I hear from people all the time, particuarly at shows, that tout the health of the f-building niche based on how long a certain builder's queue is. I get it - it makes sense. But a long queue doesn't mean success - not even close. If you lose money on every unit that goes out the door it doesn't matter how long the list is. I see wonderful rando bikes with integrated lights and custom racks and fenders with polished stainless lugs....a bike where the builder has 100 - 200 hours of labor into....and they are charging $4500 of the whole thing. Do the math and one will quickly see that they literally could make more money flipping burgers. Thank goodness so many have spouses that make a solid income and provide health insurance otherwise those guys would be gone....unless of course people start lining up with $15K for a fancy frameset.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy my job and I'm proud of my work....but I'm every bit as proud of the fact that I've been able to keep the lights on and provide the primary income to our household for over 16 years. It's hard, dirty and solidly blue-collar work and a business first and foremost.

I wish the guy here in town who make the most stunning wood dining tables you've ever seen could make a real living from it and not moonlight at Home Depot. I wish the job shop metal worker down the road could send his kid to the top end school if the kid wanted. I wish the woman who blows glass at a space-share co-op space in the next town over could afford daycare for her kid....her customers kids are in day care while their executive parents are at work....but her kids hang around the shop and start their education behind right out of the box.

That's my rant - thanks for reading.....and thanks for watching the video. It's a stunning piece of work that makes me tear up each and every time I watch it.

dave

This hits home in so many ways. Thank You for taking the time.

[paredown]

Thanks Dave for telling it like it is--no need to varnish the truth. Most people have no understanding of what it takes to get stuff done. Two trivial points from my on-again/off-again work as a construction guy--

The first was someone I was working with who was the highest producing commercial real estate agent in the firm where I was working--and he tried to tell me how outraged he was that the carpenter (who came with high recommendations) had the nerve to quote $1200 for redoing the basement supports in his house, and inserting a large beam to hold everything up. The real estate guy--probably a 200k/yr guy--insisted this was way too much money for a "simple" job in his view... This is (as my mentor would say), a "non-trivial job"--with a fair amount of risk and the necessity of having real skills.

The related point--when I have tried to explain how much responsibility you assume when you cut someone's house apart--no one understands. We put an elevator into a private residence that involved cutting through two floors, redoing all structure, rerouting electrics/heat, framing for the subcontracted elevator, concrete pad in the basement that involved hand carrying 5 gal buckets fo wet concrete--carefully-- through someone's pristine house--and then days and days of finish painting, drywall repair and the like--and at the end, the homeowner stiffed the GC I worked for on the final payment because "it took too long"--and the biggest delay was the subcontracted elevator built by their own crew. She lost a fair amount of money, luckily all the trades were paid including me.

The old story for why structural engineers charged handsomely for plan review was that they took responsibility for something not falling down--same's true for (good) carpenters-but with much less recognition and compensation.

And then people will complain that all they can get are under-trained, unskilled or patently dishonest home renovators! Well that's what the market is willing to pay for.

/end rant

[XXtwindad]

I actually think there are two distinct threads here. Both of which are interesting - and both of which are difficult to answer.

The first is the concept of losing a traditional art. It's like a dying language - the fear being that there will be a dwindling number of people who can keep that language alive. I'm not in the handcrafted trades, so that's above my pay grade.

The second thread (as I read it) is how to keep afloat in today's day and age as a purveyor of high-end artisanal services. And, hopefully, how to maintain integrity and honesty while doing it. I'm very interested in this question (and I posted a thread awhile back on the topic) because it pertains to me as well, although we're in much different industries.

Many people think "social media" is the panacea, but I'm not convinced. I'd be curious to know how many people came to you (Dave) through social media versus personal recommendations and friends of friends. I'm willing to be it's the latter.

Edit: I'd consider "The Paceline Forum" a form of social media. And if you're a bike builder, it's like marketing gold. I know this firsthand from wanting to emulate a certain Paceliner's steeds. Even when it may have been a bit detrimental to my finances. So, there's a caveat.

[XXtwindad]

I don't remember which forumite originally suggested this to me many years ago, but I will throw it out for consideration again. A very good read and on toipc for this thread...





W.

Looks like a good read.

[weisan]

One of the "irrevocable" tenets that I abide by every day is to treat everyone, regardless of their positions or stations in life, the same. In fact, sometimes I go out of my way to show even greater "care and respect" to those who seemingly hold trivial or non-significant jobs.

Here's the deal.

The next time you engage a framebuilder or artisan who is not so good at answering your phone calls or did not respond quick enough to your emails, or doesn't maintain a nice sleek-looking website, please try and cut him or her some slack...

Allow them to be who they are, be patient with them, give them time, don't rush them or try to force them to conform to your "standards"...

And if you do....

I promise you, they will fabricate or make some of the most amazing things you or the world have ever seen...

That makes the angels sing and the beholders of such gifts weep.

[XXtwindad]

One of the "irrevocable" tenets that I abide by every day is to treat everyone, regardless of their positions or stations in life, the same. In fact, sometimes I go out of my way to show even greater "care and respect" to those who seemingly hold trivial or non-significant jobs.

Here's the deal.

The next time you engage a framebuilder or artisan who is not so good at answering your phone calls or did not respond quick enough to your emails, or doesn't maintain a nice sleek-looking website, please try and cut him or her some slack...

Allow them to be who they are, be patient with them, give them time, don't rush them or try to force them to conform to your "standards"...

And if you do....

I promise you, they will fabricate or make some of the most amazing things you or the world have ever seen...

That makes the angels sing and the beholders of such gifts weep.

Yowza!!! :)

[Butch]

This is a great thread, thanks Dave for sharing a video many can relate to and telling the story of the framebuilder.
The stories you shared about young builders spending huge hours making nearly nothing per hour are the same I have seen in my 30 years in the building business. So many of my conversations with Bruce Gordon during that time were about how to make a living wage doing what you speak of.
When we started Co-Motion we did all sorts of metal work for money, making tradeshow displays, fixing awnings, frame repairs, anything while we starved ourselves for 8-10 years to build a frame business where we could make money. Stubborn. We had three of us as partners and we knew the only way to make it work was with more volume and that took a long time. They did it after I left and I thought I was done in that world.
After looking at the numbers and trying to rationalize to myself and my future wife that I could go it alone building frames I went looking for a job. When I landed at Moots there were a few things that lined up to make that work including an owner who had a lot of patience.
In my time at Moots we scraped by for years, making a little profit, not getting paid much but able to make it a real job and business. Having the big guys bring Chinese carbon bikes to the market that cost as much or more than what we were making helped. As of 2 years ago profits were good. Look at the price structure there and know that almost all sales are wholesale. I would say that in a company like Moots, Co-Motion and Seven where almost all sales are through dealers, the volume brings some semblance of efficiency through well designed tooling, systems and price structure, it works to make a living wage, have health insurance, paid vacations and a 401K. Very rare in this world of handbuilt US made products. There are many fine lines that have to be managed daily with quality, quantity, personnel and honesty to make this work. You can't be sloppy at all.
As I have started to do a little consulting to share the knowledge I accumulated through working with gifted people, making lots of mistakes and having a few successes I can tell them it isn't easy to design and produce the right products and grow to the right size, but possible. I am probably optimistic, stubborn and just a little stupid but, like the guy in the video, I want to pass on what I have learned to keep some sort of flame alive. Sorry for the self indulgence.
Butch

[David Kirk]

Thank you Butch for sharing your story. It would be fun to get together some day and enjoy a ride and a beer afterword. I'm buying.

dave

This is a great thread, thanks Dave for sharing a video many can relate to and telling the story of the framebuilder.
The stories you shared about young builders spending huge hours making nearly nothing per hour are the same I have seen in my 30 years in the building business. So many of my conversations with Bruce Gordon during that time were about how to make a living wage doing what you speak of.
When we started Co-Motion we did all sorts of metal work for money, making tradeshow displays, fixing awnings, frame repairs, anything while we starved ourselves for 8-10 years to build a frame business where we could make money. Stubborn. We had three of us as partners and we knew the only way to make it work was with more volume and that took a long time. They did it after I left and I thought I was done in that world.
After looking at the numbers and trying to rationalize to myself and my future wife that I could go it alone building frames I went looking for a job. When I landed at Moots there were a few things that lined up to make that work including an owner who had a lot of patience.
In my time at Moots we scraped by for years, making a little profit, not getting paid much but able to make it a real job and business. Having the big guys bring Chinese carbon bikes to the market that cost as much or more than what we were making helped. As of 2 years ago profits were good. Look at the price structure there and know that almost all sales are wholesale. I would say that in a company like Moots, Co-Motion and Seven where almost all sales are through dealers, the volume brings some semblance of efficiency through well designed tooling, systems and price structure, it works to make a living wage, have health insurance, paid vacations and a 401K. Very rare in this world of handbuilt US made products. There are many fine lines that have to be managed daily with quality, quantity, personnel and honesty to make this work. You can't be sloppy at all.
As I have started to do a little consulting to share the knowledge I accumulated through working with gifted people, making lots of mistakes and having a few successes I can tell them it isn't easy to design and produce the right products and grow to the right size, but possible. I am probably optimistic, stubborn and just a little stupid but, like the guy in the video, I want to pass on what I have learned to keep some sort of flame alive. Sorry for the self indulgence.
Butch

[buddybikes]

>>It’s too bad almost no schools have shop class any more.

Friend of mine, 2 masters degrees, concert organist, teaches "shop" in upscale Boston suburb. He convinced his principal that EVERY student needed to attend this 8th grade class. It is a more than major hit. They use all their subject matter to put to practical use. Their final is designing and building a model house. CAD is in the room as well as all the shop tools. The girls exceed the boys, if that tells you something...

PS: Just had wiring done, rack rate is 100.00 hr. Think many of us don't do that. (fortunately I got friend discount)

[BobbyJones]

No offense to David Kirk or Butch, but every time one of these threads come up I always ponder the same questions:

What really is "handmade" or "artisan"? And I'm not specifically talking bike frames.

What are we paying for when we talk about handmade / artisan?

Is handmade / artisan a better product?

My mind wanders over to the skilled trade issue, but thats a whole other can of worms.

[Hellgate]

No offense to David Kirk or Butch, but every time one of these threads come up I always ponder the same questions:



What really is "handmade" or "artisan"? And I'm not specifically talking bike frames.



What are we paying for when we talk about handmade / artisan?



Is handmade / artisan a better product?



My mind wanders over to the skilled trade issue, but thats a whole other can of worms.It has soul and is "authentic", ask a Hipster. Says the guy with 3 custom bikes and one custom motorcycle...

[j_b]

Beautiful video. My father was a tin-knocker and would sit little j_b down on the edge of the work table so he could observe how the brake and jump shears were used. The banging, clanging, and even cussing is something I will always remember and miss hearing.

[vincenz]

No offense to David Kirk or Butch, but every time one of these threads come up I always ponder the same questions:



What really is "handmade" or "artisan"? And I'm not specifically talking bike frames.



What are we paying for when we talk about handmade / artisan?



Is handmade / artisan a better product?



My mind wanders over to the skilled trade issue, but thats a whole other can of worms.


For me that’s a simple question. Artisan or handmade is something made with precision and artistry that big manufacturers can’t replicate. It’s largely unique in details and mostly a “boutique” product that may not appeal to the masses. Buying an artisan or handmade product is buying into the creator’s vision/philosophy as much as the actual product.

[Butch]

Thank you Butch for sharing your story. It would be fun to get together some day and enjoy a ride and a beer afterword. I'm buying.

dave

Dave I very much look forward to that. I will get to Bozeman one day as my wife works with the great folks at Mystery Ranch and loves Bozeman.

As to what makes a handbuilt/artisan piece more desirable than mass produced products from foreign factories I can share a couple observations. Without getting into the political side of any of this, as I am a believer in a world economy, I have learned a bit about Chinese production facilities and their products. After more than 33 years in the industry and 29 manufacturing, I can share the following about the bike world in particular.

I can speak about my experience with sourcing carbon forks from a Taiwan based company that manufactures on the mainland, running a boutique factory here in the US with a staff of 22 people and having visited a well known factory producing titanium, steel and aluminum frames in Taiwan. Also I know many of the best individual builders and the quality of the products they produce both in the US and elsewhere. I will say there are several I would be proud to ride as they build to the highest standards. here are some observations.

The high quality individual builders and the small factories I am familiar with in the US have higher QC standards than foreign factories building metal frames. I am not saying that what is produced and shipped to the US is defective or bad, it is just that the handbuilt companies etc are able to tune the ride of the bike to a much higher degree. This starts with materials. When producing for export and as a subcontractor there are 2 priorities, get it done cheaply/quickly and make sure it doesn't break. The best solution for that is to use heavy tubing from the least expensive source. The boutique builders we are all referencing here use the highest quality, best riding materials they can get their hands on and can manage the QC through building for quality not volume per hour.

With sourcing from Chinese factories what you are dealing with is often a different beast. I will just say that hitting the quality standards we expected from our fork producer was a challenge. Again not from a safety aspect but from consistency in aesthetics, predictable deliveries and dimensional irregularities that led to QC steps taken here. One big challenge was factory turnover each year at Chinese New Year, up to 30% in a factory that was 1KM square including dorms for the workers.

For me when riding down a mountain pass at close to 60 mph I like to know who made my frame and what it is made out of. When on a long ride, as a bike snob, I can feel the difference in response, handling and comfort on a lightweight well built frame. I can say that each of these builders we talk about have ridden the **** out of the products they build and sell and that means something. It's not just a job. Maybe we are freaks who have too personal a relationship with our bikes, our dining room tables and the art on our walls. I can live with that.

One of the comparisons that has come to mind over the years is that of restaurants. I like to cook, I like good ingredients and healthy food that tastes good. When going to a new town I look for locally owned places when possible that have a reputation for using very good ingredients and consistent quality. Not looking for fancy but for a place that is proud to put good food on the table with a staff that wants to work there and has for many years. Some folks are very happy at Olive Garden, TGIF's and Appleby's. Road food is a different thing to be sure, but when possible, that is where I want my money to land, same with my bike ****.
Support companies and people you believe in, ride the best you can get, life is short.

[David Kirk]

Dave I very much look forward to that. I will get to Bozeman one day as my wife works with the great folks at Mystery Ranch and loves Bozeman.

As to what makes a handbuilt/artisan piece more desirable than mass produced products from foreign factories I can share a couple observations. Without getting into the political side of any of this, as I am a believer in a world economy, I have learned a bit about Chinese production facilities and their products. After more than 33 years in the industry and 29 manufacturing, I can share the following about the bike world in particular.

I can speak about my experience with sourcing carbon forks from a Taiwan based company that manufactures on the mainland, running a boutique factory here in the US with a staff of 22 people and having visited a well known factory producing titanium, steel and aluminum frames in Taiwan. Also I know many of the best individual builders and the quality of the products they produce both in the US and elsewhere. I will say there are several I would be proud to ride as they build to the highest standards. here are some observations.

The high quality individual builders and the small factories I am familiar with in the US have higher QC standards than foreign factories building metal frames. I am not saying that what is produced and shipped to the US is defective or bad, it is just that the handbuilt companies etc are able to tune the ride of the bike to a much higher degree. This starts with materials. When producing for export and as a subcontractor there are 2 priorities, get it done cheaply/quickly and make sure it doesn't break. The best solution for that is to use heavy tubing from the least expensive source. The boutique builders we are all referencing here use the highest quality, best riding materials they can get their hands on and can manage the QC through building for quality not volume per hour.

With sourcing from Chinese factories what you are dealing with is often a different beast. I will just say that hitting the quality standards we expected from our fork producer was a challenge. Again not from a safety aspect but from consistency in aesthetics, predictable deliveries and dimensional irregularities that led to QC steps taken here. One big challenge was factory turnover each year at Chinese New Year, up to 30% in a factory that was 1KM square including dorms for the workers.

For me when riding down a mountain pass at close to 60 mph I like to know who made my frame and what it is made out of. When on a long ride, as a bike snob, I can feel the difference in response, handling and comfort on a lightweight well built frame. I can say that each of these builders we talk about have ridden the **** out of the products they build and sell and that means something. It's not just a job. Maybe we are freaks who have too personal a relationship with our bikes, our dining room tables and the art on our walls. I can live with that.

One of the comparisons that has come to mind over the years is that of restaurants. I like to cook, I like good ingredients and healthy food that tastes good. When going to a new town I look for locally owned places when possible that have a reputation for using very good ingredients and consistent quality. Not looking for fancy but for a place that is proud to put good food on the table with a staff that wants to work there and has for many years. Some folks are very happy at Olive Garden, TGIF's and Appleby's. Road food is a different thing to be sure, but when possible, that is where I want my money to land, same with my bike ****.
Support companies and people you believe in, ride the best you can get, life is short.

Thanks for this - it mirrors my time building for Serotta, myself and others.

dave

[sparky33]

Good reading here.

I could see this shared industry perspective transitioning into a regular column or editorial in BQ... or another magazine serving an audience with similar appreciation of handbuilt bicycles.

[Clean39T]

Maybe we are freaks who have too personal a relationship with our bikes, our dining room tables and the art on our walls. I can live with that.

One of the comparisons that has come to mind over the years is that of restaurants. I like to cook, I like good ingredients and healthy food that tastes good. When going to a new town I look for locally owned places when possible that have a reputation for using very good ingredients and consistent quality. Not looking for fancy but for a place that is proud to put good food on the table with a staff that wants to work there and has for many years. Some folks are very happy at Olive Garden, TGIF's and Appleby's. Road food is a different thing to be sure, but when possible, that is where I want my money to land, same with my bike ****.

Support companies and people you believe in, ride the best you can get, life is short.

That all has very strong resonance for me...... it's all about the experience and supporting the things and people that you see as making the world a better place in the spaces that you most care about.

[Brian Smith]

Sorry for the self indulgence.
Butch

I don't pick up any "self indulgence" in your contributions, but rather I detect, stated with the same amount of keyboard characters, "good intentions." Thanks for contributing here.

[XXtwindad]

Good reading here.

I could see this shared industry perspective transitioning into a regular column or editorial in BQ... or another magazine serving an audience with similar appreciation of handbuilt bicycles.

I agree that this is an inherently interesting topic. Many (perhaps most) people cannot afford a custom bike. That's an immutable fact.

But, a quick glance at Trek's website shows that there are at least ten models selling for over $10,000 and another six selling for over $8,000. They wouldn't price them this way if they didn't feel like there was a market.

For me, if I'm going to lay down that much scratch for a bike, it's going to be built for me. This would seem to be the target market.

[Dekonick]

I agree that this is an inherently interesting topic. Many (perhaps most) people cannot afford a custom bike. That's an immutable fact.

But, a quick glance at Trek's website shows that there are at least ten models selling for over $10,000 and another six selling for over $8,000. They wouldn't price them this way if they didn't feel like there was a market.

For me, if I'm going to lay down that much scratch for a bike, it's going to be built for me. This would seem to be the target market.

Zero regrets buying a custom bike. Zero regrets having a bike custom adapted. I am grateful every day that the likes of Kirk and Bedford are still making artisan frames. Don't we all just wish there were some kids learning the trades today?

[Filament]

If there's anyone reading who likes metalwork and wants to make bikes there's a good job at Brompton in London https://cyclingindustry.news/job/production-brazer/

[weisan]

If there's anyone reading who likes metalwork and wants to make bikes there's a good job at Brompton in London https://cyclingindustry.news/job/production-brazer/

Excellent job description. Whoever wrote it did a good job.

[merlinmurph]

His video reminds me of Mike Rowe from "Dirty Jobs" making similar pleas to congress - on two different occasions.

Here's one (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0NwEFVUb-u0) from 2011

And another (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3oAhQ4Za6Ds) from 2017