28h rear wheel lacing ?

[AngryScientist]

Planning on lacing 2x drive side / radial NDS.

any reason not to do this?

interestingly, the mavic wheels i have been riding the most lately are laced just the opposite, with radial DS and crossed on the NDS.

thoughts on if this will make any difference in feel or durability vs 2x/2x ?

[steelbikerider]

I have wheels with 2x, 3x and 3x ds/r nds. The only 2 differences I have noticed is that radial looks cooler but it is easier to wipe the hub shell with a rag on the 2x/3x wheels.

[boywander]

Unless you’re under 150lbs, otherwise do 3x driveside and 2x nondrive.

[Mark McM]

If you're using traditional wheel components*, you're unlikely to notice much of a difference with different lacing patterns. Except for wheels with a very small number of spokes, crossing the spokes on one side is generally enough to handle torque loads, and spoke angles above 30 degrees is usually enough (28 spokes laced 2x results in a 51 degree spoke angle). The only caveat here is that not all hubs have flanges thar are built to handle radial loads, but most modern hubs will be fine.

*I'm guessing the Mavic wheels you have with spokes that are radial DS/crossed NDS use Zicral spokes. These fat aluminum spokes are so wide that there isn't enough lateral clearance available to cross them on the drive side, so these wheels cross the NDS spokes instead. The hubs on these wheels has large diameter spools, so they have sufficient torsional stiffness and strength to transmit torques to the NDS flange.

[AngryScientist]

cool

yes, i am comfortably under 150#

rim is easton R90SL and hub is CK R45.

[zzy]

2x both sides builds a laterally stiffer wheel, but it doesn't really matter. Mavic's lacing pattern never made any sense to me, but neither did a lot of their design choices.

[Mark McM]

2x both sides builds a laterally stiffer wheel, but it doesn't really matter. Mavic's lacing pattern never made any sense to me, but neither did a lot of their design choices.

Actually, radially laced wheels are usually stiffer than wheels with crossed spokes (this has been measured) - but only by a few percent. The reason is very simple - radial spokes are shorter, and shorter spokes are stiffer. Crossing spokes adds no lateral stiffness, because spokes are are free to pivot or bend at both the flange and rim (whether crossed or not). (And before you suggest that tying and soldering increases spoke stiffness and wheel lateral stiffness, this has also been tested, and no increase in stiffness was measured.)

[David Kirk]

For 28H I'd go 2x....the angle that the spoke leaves the hub is the ticket.

28H - 2x
32H - 3x


dave

[oldpotatoe]

Planning on lacing 2x drive side / radial NDS.

any reason not to do this?

interestingly, the mavic wheels i have been riding the most lately are laced just the opposite, with radial DS and crossed on the NDS.

thoughts on if this will make any difference in feel or durability vs 2x/2x ?

Errrr, as the contrarian, old fart, curmudgeon, luddite, conservative wheel builder...any reason to DO it that way?
3x more reliable, all things being equal. Both sides. BUT, at your weight, and the rim weight(about 445g), 2x would do..Radial LH side does nothing to add to the wheel performance.

Don't use skinny spokes on the drive side, IMHO..

Mavic made an uber stiff hub and laced radial RH side cuz they had cogset/spoke interference with those big fat spokes and big fat places where the spokes entered the hub.

[Davist]

Mavic is confusing, they have some radial on drive side (Ksyrium) some radial on NDS (Aksium). Kinda made me wonder/think it's all a marketing gimmick. All my wheels have been crossed, I've had both 2 and 3 cross 28s, I couldn't tell a durability difference at 185lb and using for light gravel as well as road.

[ergott]

Actually, radially laced wheels are usually stiffer than wheels with crossed spokes (this has been measured) - but only by a few percent. The reason is very simple - radial spokes are shorter, and shorter spokes are stiffer. Crossing spokes adds no lateral stiffness, because spokes are are free to pivot or bend at both the flange and rim (whether crossed or not). (And before you suggest that tying and soldering increases spoke stiffness and wheel lateral stiffness, this has also been tested, and no increase in stiffness was measured.)

Radial has been measured to improve lateral stiffness only when configured with all elbows on the outside of the flange.

I've never read anything about spoke length and its effect. You're saying a 290mm spoke will stretch a greater length than a 270mm spoke with the same force is applied along its length?

[oldpotatoe]

(And before you suggest that tying and soldering increases spoke stiffness and wheel lateral stiffness, this has also been tested, and no increase in stiffness was measured.)

Well, not why you tie and solder...:)

[Bob Ross]

yes, i am comfortably under 150#

We hate you.



:)

[Mark McM]

Radial has been measured to improve lateral stiffness only when configured with all elbows on the outside of the flange

While the degree of difference can vary depending on other factors, lacing radial spokes heads out can result in a small increase in stiffness over a crossed lacing pattern. Keith Bontrager tested otherwise identical wheels with either radial (heads-out) or 3x lacing, and found that the radially laced wheel was 5% stiffer laterally. There is little difference in bracing angle between radially heads out and 3x, so the difference in stiffness is mainly due to length of the spokes (3x spokes are about 5% longer than radial spokes).

As you note, radial heads-in lacing can result in an even greater difference in lateral stiffness, because this lacing pattern can result in a meaningful difference in bracing angle. In Damon Rinardl stiffness's test of whee (https://forums.thepaceline.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2621063), he found that otherwise identical radially laced wheels, lacing heads in resulted in 13% more lateral stiffness than lacing heads-out.

I've never read anything about spoke length and its effect. You're saying a 290mm spoke will stretch a greater length than a 270mm spoke with the same force is applied along its length?

Yes, obviously a longer spokes will have less longitudinal stiffness than shorter spokes. A 290 mm spoke is 7% longer than 270mm spoke, and will stretch 7% more under the same load. In turn, if the spokes stretch more, the wheel will deflect more. Similarly, a thinner spoke will have less longitidunal stiffness than thicker spokes, so thinner spokes make less stiff wheels.

If it isn't written about, its probably because for a given rim and hub combination, there is little difference in possible spoke lengths, so differences in spoke length will have result in only minor differences in the stiffness of that wheel. The number and thickness of the spokes and the bracing angle have much more variability, so variations in these will have much larger affects on stiffness.

[AngryScientist]

ok, so should i go heads in or out on the radial side then??


by the way, i've built a whole bunch of wheels now, just want to do something a little different than the usual for this one.

[ergott]

Yes, obviously a longer spokes will have less longitudinal stiffness than shorter spokes. A 290 mm spoke is 7% longer than 270mm spoke, and will stretch 7% more under the same load. In turn, if the spokes stretch more, the wheel will deflect more. Similarly, a thinner spoke will have less longitidunal stiffness than thicker spokes, so thinner spokes make less stiff wheels.

If it isn't written about, its probably because for a given rim and hub combination, there is little difference in possible spoke lengths, so differences in spoke length will have result in only minor differences in the stiffness of that wheel. The number and thickness of the spokes and the bracing angle have much more variability, so variations in these will have much larger affects on stiffness.

290mm to 270mm is a practical different in spoke length when changing patterns from cross to radial. If that's a 7% increase in lateral stiffness then that's a bigger improvement than some of the other changes mentioned.

[ergott]

ok, so should i go heads in or out on the radial side then??


by the way, i've built a whole bunch of wheels now, just want to do something a little different than the usual for this one.

Due to the large flange diameter and spoke hole placement on those hubs I would definitely lace heads out. Heads in would put stresses on the flange I'm not sure CK recommends. It might even be mentioned somewhere in their literature with regards to radial lacing.

[AngryScientist]

thanks eric.

heads out it is.

[Mark McM]

290mm to 270mm is a practical different in spoke length when changing patterns from cross to radial. If that's a 7% increase in lateral stiffness then that's a bigger improvement than some of the other changes mentioned.

The 7% stiffness change is just for the spokes. The spoke stiffness is just one contributor to wheel stiffness - the rim stiffness and the hub/axle stiffness are also important contributors. Changing the spoke stiffness by 7% may result in a wheel stiffness difference of only a few percent. Even for the same hub and rim, there are other variable that make bigger differences. For example, a 2.0 straight spoke has nearly twice the longitudinal stiffness of a 2.0/1.5/2.0 spoke, so switching between these two spoke types will have a bigger affect on wheel stiffness.

As I first said, spoke lacing pattern has only a minor affect on wheel performance - other design variables have much larger affects. I think that people sometimes focus on wheel lacing pattern because it tends to be more visible than other variables.

[charliedid]

While the degree of difference can vary depending on other factors, lacing radial spokes heads out can result in a small increase in stiffness over a crossed lacing pattern. Keith Bontrager tested otherwise identical wheels with either radial (heads-out) or 3x lacing, and found that the radially laced wheel was 5% stiffer laterally. There is little difference in bracing angle between radially heads out and 3x, so the difference in stiffness is mainly due to length of the spokes (3x spokes are about 5% longer than radial spokes).



As you note, radial heads-in lacing can result in an even greater difference in lateral stiffness, because this lacing pattern can result in a meaningful difference in bracing angle. In Damon Rinardl stiffness's test of whee (https://forums.thepaceline.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2621063), he found that otherwise identical radially laced wheels, lacing heads in resulted in 13% more lateral stiffness than lacing heads-out.







Yes, obviously a longer spokes will have less longitudinal stiffness than shorter spokes. A 290 mm spoke is 7% longer than 270mm spoke, and will stretch 7% more under the same load. In turn, if the spokes stretch more, the wheel will deflect more. Similarly, a thinner spoke will have less longitidunal stiffness than thicker spokes, so thinner spokes make less stiff wheels.



If it isn't written about, its probably because for a given rim and hub combination, there is little difference in possible spoke lengths, so differences in spoke length will have result in only minor differences in the stiffness of that wheel. The number and thickness of the spokes and the bracing angle have much more variability, so variations in these will have much larger affects on stiffness.



I wonder if Keith could pick the correct wheel out of a blind taste test. Is 5%. Stiffer really discernible? I wonder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

ok, so should i go heads in or out on the radial side then??


by the way, i've built a whole bunch of wheels now, just want to do something a little different than the usual for this one.

Twisty spokes then!!

:)

[AngryScientist]

pretty happy with the way these came out.

hopefully they ride as nicely as they look.

side note: these are really nice rims. built up very easily. perfectly round/flat out of the box.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K_YyK2TlHdQ/XfvCcDKRF6I/AAAAAAAADZ8/ZcgWfXARmTgcMbyByOLXVY-wDQOgg4caQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_4855.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F5kCSZk8LBs/XfvCcHc3O8I/AAAAAAAADaA/baedKyE6G14PxI4AFQPcwr0H8UAYu2aiQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/IMG_4856.jpg

[Spaghetti Legs]

Nicely done - looks good! BTW, I just did a first ride on Tirreno Zeros and liked ‘em.

[AngryScientist]

Nicely done - looks good! BTW, I just did a first ride on Tirreno Zeros and liked ‘em.

yea, the casing on them feels pretty nice, looking forward to rolling some miles on them. these are the 32c version.