Received a cracked bike... and Paypal's new refund policy debate

[Cam]

Hello,
I just purchased a Tarmac Sl6 on the facebook martketplace. I used paypal and paid as goods and services. The listing said it was in good condition with a couple of scratches. No big deal. When I received it, I noticed the chip was a bit deeper then I thought. I took it to the bike shop and they said it was cracked. Well crap. So I contacted the seller who is in Florida, (I am in Sac, CA area) and he does not want to refund on paypal bc they charge too much, but rather I meet with his brother in law in SF where we can give the bike back in person and get the refund. These seem like very honest people and had no intention of scamming me. However, today is November 15th, I talked to the brother in law 2 days ago and he said he is leaving on the 16th for travel and wont be back till the 6th-7th of December. I opened a pay pal claim as a formality but that claim will end on the 2nd if not resolved.

Any advice?

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?

[Blue Jays]

My advice:
Carefully follow the protocols and procedures suggested by Facebook Marketplace and PayPal.
Methodically document all your calls, discussions, and emails. Welcome to Paceline Forums.

[dave thompson]

<delete please> total brain fart, sorry.

[echappist]

My advice:
Carefully follow the protocols and procedures suggested by Facebook Marketplace and PayPal.
Methodically document all your calls, discussions, and emails. Welcome to Paceline Forums.

+1 to all of the above

People behave in funny ways when a bit of money is on the line. What they say may or may not match up with their actions.

It's really not the OP's concern that Paypal may charge the seller too much for a refund. Whether due to negligence, lack of perceptiveness, or some other reason, the description in the original ad does not match what was delivered.

PayPal will allow you to file a claim when you’ve paid by ‘friends and family?

I think you may have misread. His second sentence states it was paid as "goods and services".

[Cam]

PayPal will allow you to file a claim when you’ve paid by ‘friends and family?

I paid using goods and services.

[FlashUNC]

What the seller wants from Paypal is, frankly, not your problem.

Return the bike, and get your funds back if its delivered not as promised.

[dave thompson]

I paid using goods and services.

Yeah. I read your post incorrectly. Sorry.

[vincenz]

If you already opened a claim I don’t think it matters anymore if they can meet you before the claim deadline. You should be able to get your money back via the PayPal process. But like others have said, just document everything and present to PayPal as needed.

[AngryScientist]

eff that noise.

you have to drive to SF and deal with the guys brother? and you have to wait a few weeks to get your $ back?

senseless. it's wholly the seller's responsibility to rectify the situation if they sold you a frame that was not in the condition described, and a cracked carbon frame is definitely not "good condition".

go through formal channels IMO.

[vincenz]

eff that noise.



you have to drive to SF and deal with the guys brother? and you have to wait a few weeks to get your $ back?



senseless.


Seriously. And what’s the seller mean by PayPal fees? He should have any fees reversed when refunding, as far as I know.

[Nomadmax]

The seller has already shown you that he's either dishonest or careless/inattentive. Don't ignore that and do some side deal refund. Go thru PP and do it right or you'll probably regret it.

[Cam]

Thank you for all the responses. I will go through the paypal process. First post on this site. Super helpful! Thanks guys! <3

[AngryScientist]

Thank you for all the responses. I will go through the paypal process. First post on this site. Super helpful! Thanks guys! <3

you are welcome. please do stick around and join the bunch.

the good news is, IMO, it's a buyer's market out there and the interwebs are practically flooded with great modern bikes. be a little patient and i'm sure you will find something great for a good deal.

[Cam]

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?

[Dave B]

I think if you provide shipping info to paypal they refund your money as it shows you shipped it to the original seller.

That is how it used to work, but they change their policies a lot.

[Pegoready]

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?

I believe paypal changed their policy recently to not refund the seller the fees they originally paid on the transaction, when the seller refunds your money. It's not your problem but if you really feel badly about it you can tell the seller you'll reimburse him the fees after you've gotten all your money back.

[rallizes]

I believe paypal changed their policy recently to not refund the seller the fees they originally paid on the transaction, when the seller refunds your money. It's not your problem but if you really feel badly about it you can tell the seller you'll reimburse him the fees after you've gotten all your money back.

i would find a way not to feel bad about the fees

[tuscanyswe]

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?

If he issues a refund paypal will not keep the procentage they take for the transaction as in the end there was no transaction to take procentage of. So dont really know what he means. He should not be out any more cash other than that he now has a broken frame but chances are he allrdy knew that. Or not perhaps..

Edit: Oh okay if there was a recent change about reimbursing fees on refunds that is a possibility. I just know it did not used to be like that.

[zzy]

In my prior experience, PP only keeps the fees if it goes into a dispute and PP decides against you. In theory the seller should also be on the hook for shipping in both directions. If things have changed I would like to know.

[vincenz]

I believe paypal changed their policy recently to not refund the seller the fees they originally paid on the transaction, when the seller refunds your money. It's not your problem but if you really feel badly about it you can tell the seller you'll reimburse him the fees after you've gotten all your money back.

This seems correct. Good to know:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/20/20876570/paypal-refund-fee-policy-change-sellers-controversy

To the OP, I would press him to resolve it with you earlier in his best interest, but it matters little now, as you already started the claim.

[fignon's barber]

OP, I smell a scam here. What the seller said about pp refund fees doesn't make sense. If he refunds you in cash, he is still out the 5% that pp charged him anyway. My guess is he has no intention of refunding you.

[denapista]

I believe paypal changed their policy recently to not refund the seller the fees they originally paid on the transaction, when the seller refunds your money. It's not your problem but if you really feel badly about it you can tell the seller you'll reimburse him the fees after you've gotten all your money back.

The guy sold you a cracked frame, that almost seems like a dishonest thing to begin with. He either refunds you immediately (Same Day you contact him), or you go through paypal and forget about him entirely. Why are you caring if he gets hit with fees on the refund? You're totally ignoring the crack in the frame. That crack didn't appear magically like Lucky Charms. He knew it was there. Each one of us inspects our frames in the event of a fly landing on them.. A crack in carbon came from a huge impact, so I'm going to go on a limb and say he knew about it...

[vqdriver]

F this nonsense. take videos and pics of the frame and ship the thing back. upload the tracking info to paypal and let them deal with the seller.
i don't care if it's a bike or book, this is shady as hell.

[Cam]

I greatly appreciate all the feedback. This is my first time having an issue with a paypal purchase. Quite the learning experience.

[AngryScientist]

this is shady as hell.

i dont know, maybe, maybe not. i like to give people the benefit of the doubt and the chance to do the right thing.

i would not be rude or accusatory in any way, it could have been a simple mistake or oversight. i would just politely inform the seller that you will be using the paypal provided process to initiate a return and leave it at that.

as mentioned, document the crack, and better if you have something in writing from the bike shop confirming that it is a crack.

[zmalwo]

If he issues a refund paypal will not keep the procentage they take for the transaction as in the end there was no transaction to take procentage of. So dont really know what he means. He should not be out any more cash other than that he now has a broken frame but chances are he allrdy knew that. Or not perhaps..

Edit: Oh okay if there was a recent change about reimbursing fees on refunds that is a possibility. I just know it did not used to be like that.

Paypal changed it's policy on fees. They are now keeping the 2.9%+$0.30 even if you refund the full amount.

[Cam]

i dont know, maybe, maybe not. i like to give people the benefit of the doubt and the chance to do the right thing.

i would not be rude or accusatory in any way, it could have been a simple mistake or oversight. i would just politely inform the seller that you will be using the paypal provided process to initiate a return and leave it at that.

as mentioned, document the crack, and better if you have something in writing from the bike shop confirming that it is a crack.

Yeah I trust him that it was an honest mistake. He said its his father in-laws and he is selling for him. It just seems like a very strange way to do a return. Before consulting this forum, I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place. Also when i took it to the bike shop, I got a printed receipt and an email confirming the crack, so we are good there.

[Cam]

Paypal changed it's policy on fees. They are now keeping the 2.9%+$0.30 even if you refund the full amount.

Do does that mean I loose out on the 2.9% even when refunded the full amount?

[prototoast]

I don't understand the seller's logic here. If he refunds you in person, Paypal keeps the fee. If he refunds you via Paypal, Paypal keeps the fee.

[Cam]

I don't understand the seller's logic here. If he refunds you in person, Paypal keeps the fee. If he refunds you via Paypal, Paypal keeps the fee.

Excellent point. Did not even think of it that way.

[Keith A]

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?I'm not 100% sure, but the seller shouldn't have to pay any PayPal fees...just the shipping costs when sending you the frame. The thing that isn't handled well is who is going to pay for the return shipping. I don't think this is covered with PayPal, but I could be wrong.

[Keith A]

Paypal changed it's policy on fees. They are now keeping the 2.9%+$0.30 even if you refund the full amount.So I assume that the buyer looses this amount?

[DRZRM]

Doesn't this actually mean that the buyer is out the 2.9 percent. Does the new policy (which is news to me) really mean that if a seller refunds a payment the buyer gets a full refund and the seller pays a fee? Or does the refund go back less the 2.9%. I'm only asking because I just bought my wife a watch that stopped running and I'm waiting for a refund, I'll be pissed if the cost is mine, I'm pretty sure I'll be paying shipping both ways already.

[colker]

What happens in paypal stays in paypal.

[vqdriver]

I get that and i agree that it's good to be gracious in our dealings. But I've been burned enough by cross country sellers (and buyers for that matter) to be suspicious whenever they want to go outside normal practices.
It's one thing if they're local and maybe they dont want the dispute in their transaction history. but theres no reason to tell a buyer to drive 2 hours to meet a third party only to find that the guys gone until after the dispute period.

i dont know, maybe, maybe not. i like to give people the benefit of the doubt and the chance to do the right thing.

i would not be rude or accusatory in any way, it could have been a simple mistake or oversight. i would just politely inform the seller that you will be using the paypal provided process to initiate a return and leave it at that.

as mentioned, document the crack, and better if you have something in writing from the bike shop confirming that it is a crack.

[kramnnim]

If you have to pay for the return shipping, Paypal might refund the shipping cost. https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/returns/terms

[colker]

I get that and i agree that it's good to be gracious in our dealings. But I've been burned enough by cross country sellers (and buyers for that matter) to be suspicious whenever they want to go outside normal practices.
It's one thing if they're local and maybe they dont want the dispute in their transaction history. but theres no reason to tell a buyer to drive 2 hours to meet a third party only to find that the guys gone until after the dispute period.

Yes. Keep it inside paypal lines.

[vincenz]

After the policy change, PayPal keeps the fees after refund. The seller loses the fees.

[Keith A]

After the policy change, PayPal keeps the fees after refund. The seller loses the fees.So that means the seller has to pay these fees since the funds are going back to the buyer...correct?

[vincenz]

So that means the seller has to pay these fees since the funds are going back to the buyer...correct?

So if a buyer pays a seller $100, paypal takes $3 and sends the seller $97.

Before, if a seller issued a buyer a refund, the seller would send paypal $97 and paypal would send the buyer $100. (this is based on transaction behavior I have seen as a buyer, as I never see two refund transactions of $97 + $3 when receiving refunds, only one $100 refund).

Now with the new policy, I assume it's the same process as above, but with the addition of a $3 charge to the seller, or it could be calculated up front in one transaction and the seller sends paypal $100. I don't know for sure because I haven't encountered it yet so I don't know exactly HOW they're implementing it.

[tbike4]

i would find a way not to feel bad about the fees

^This. I would look deep inside my mojo system for 3 or 4 seconds, reflect upon it, then not feel bad that the seller is eating fees.

[phoenix]

Apologies if this was covered and I missed it, but what condition was the box in when you receive it?

I ask because I always take pictures of all sides of the box to note condition when I ship it out. I also take pictures of the box when I receive a frameset or wheels mainly if there is visible damage on the outside of the box. This way I have a leg to stand on if things go sideways.

I've received boxes via UPS that were barely holding on. Good thing our shippinh and receoving guys made the driver make notes in their system that the box was heavily damaged.

Good luck, keep us posted!


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[Spdntrxi]

One last question, Does the seller have to pay fees on the return?

no...

seller hits a button called "refund".. after which you get the money back. The seller is out the shipping(return) but does not pay any fees.

[Cam]

Apologies if this was covered and I missed it, but what condition was the box in when you receive it?

I ask because I always take pictures of all sides of the box to note condition when I ship it out. I also take pictures of the box when I receive a frameset or wheels mainly if there is visible damage on the outside of the box. This way I have a leg to stand on if things go sideways.

I've received boxes via UPS that were barely holding on. Good thing our shippinh and receoving guys made the driver make notes in their system that the box was heavily damaged.

Good luck, keep us posted!


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There was no noticeable damage on the box. The listing said there was a chip on the top tube. He took it to his bike shop (Bike Generation in Florida) and they

said it was fine. On very close inspection of said chip, the carbon did not look right. I took it to my bike shop and they said it

was cracked using the sound test and it as quite obvious when they demonstrated.

[Cam]

no...

seller hits a button called "refund".. after which you get the money back. The seller is out the shipping(return) but does not pay any fees.

With the new change in policy, I am/was unsure of who pay-pal receives their fee from. Thanks for clarification

[Spdntrxi]

With the new change in policy, I am/was unsure of who pay-pal receives their fee from. Thanks for clarification

fees come from your payment to the seller...(receiver gets less)
if the person sends you the money while not using the refund method then yes you will get hit with fees.
If they send friends and family.. the sender gets hit with fees.

[peanutgallery]

Used carbon bike stuff...count me out. Too much drama

[Cam]

Used carbon bike stuff...count me out. Too much drama

My thoughts exactly. Im going to stick to aluminum after all this.

[tuxbailey]

My thoughts exactly. Im going to stick to aluminum after all this.

Better yet, if you are willing to pay used carbon, might as well go for used titanium. Stick around here for a while and you will see quality stuff shows up in our classified section.

[Cam]

Better yet, if you are willing to pay used carbon, might as well go for used titanium. Stick around here for a while and you will see quality stuff shows up in our classified section.

OOOOOOH now we are talking. I currently have a Ventana Road bike. I have always wanted a Ti bike. I am wuite curious about Waltly. they seem quite nice

[sonicCows]

Another option if you want a quick resolution is to ask for partial refund for frame repair. Maybe $300-400 for the repair plus drop in value?
You don't need to proceed with the repair, you could flip it on eBay as a frame for repairs (you'd be surprised at what you'd get for a brand name frame).

[mdeth1313]

I've found trusting paypal difficult at best. I always pay with a credit card (even if it means I'm covering their fees on the sale) and if anything goes wrong and the seller doesn't handle it properly I go right to the bank (cc issuer) and have them deal with it. I've only had to do this 3 times over the past 15 years, but it prevents them from playing games with paypal and their timelines.

[Hilltopperny]

OOOOOOH now we are talking. I currently have a Ventana Road bike. I have always wanted a Ti bike. I am wuite curious about Waltly. they seem quite nice



You can buy a leftover brand new frame set from Lynskey with a lifetime warranty for at or under $1,000. Pretty tough to beat for the budget minded or stick around here and find a beautiful high end steel, titanium or aluminum frame for a good price!


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[Cam]

Update: Sent the bike back and got a full refund. Thanks again for all the advice!

[Black Dog]

Good news.

[Peter P.]

Update: Sent the bike back and got a full refund. Thanks again for all the advice!

Did you send it back to Florida and follow the standard refund rules, or did you do the "meet my relative" procedure?

[Cam]

I followed standard rules and sent it to Florida.