E-bikes and exercise intensity

[fa63]

Given the recent debates we have had on the forum regarding e-bikes, here is an interesting article I just came across. The sample size is small, and the study is limited in scope, but still interesting.

The Verge: No, e-bikes aren’t cheating.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/13/20963426/ebike-exercise-fitness-heart-rate-study-science-electric-bike

[jamesdak]

I saw that study mentioned locally yesterday too. Isn't power a lot more accurate than HR to study exertion? We sure hear that on these bike forums all the time.

[fa63]

I saw that study mentioned locally yesterday too. Isn't power a lot more accurate than HR to study exertion? We sure hear that on these bike forums all the time.Good point. But I think the common misconception is that e-bikers let the bike do all the work, whereas in reality it seems that e-bikers do quite a bit of work as well. They just go faster. Or maybe their heart rates are elevated simply because they are going too fast :-D

[Davist]

I saw that study mentioned locally yesterday too. Isn't power a lot more accurate than HR to study exertion? We sure hear that on these bike forums all the time.

Yes. But for generic "exercise" and getting off the couch, I think the point is made that you get some benefits which is good..

[peanutgallery]

I've mtb'ed a specialized turbo levo a few times, it was plenty of work. You still have to work the bike in the technical sections and thru turns and what not. Not having the suspension set up correctly would really wear you out. Faster? Oh yeah. More fun than should be legal on a Sunday in a state forest

Part of me wants to take a step thru Como to a group rideand shred everyone in a sombrero, cutoffs and a umbrella drink in hand. A couple go up to 28 mph

For those of you getting your campagnolo panties in a twist over the mere concept of ebikes, buck up...because they are coming. They sell. Folks of all ages, shapes and sizes like to ride, too - and they are buying these things by the truckload. For some people, riding a bike doesn't have to be an S&M experience, it can be just plain old fun

The tribe gets bigger and more mainstream and there is nothing wrong with that

[unterhausen]

ebikers have been crowing about this for a couple of months now. My view is that I want an ebike to lower my exercise intensity (commuting and errands), so it's not particularly good news.

[fa63]

ebikers have been crowing about this for a couple of months now. My view is that I want an ebike to lower my exercise intensity (commuting and errands), so it's not particularly good news.
That is one the beauties of e-bikes; you can dial the assist up to get to work with minimal sweat and dial it down to get a good workout on the way back home.

When I commute on my e-bike, I can manage to not break a sweat as long as I manage my speed. In other words, I am not really going that much faster than I would on my regular bike; I just do less work (especially on the hills).

[spoonrobot]

So an e-cyclist has to eat the same amount of replacement calories as a normal cyclist?

And also has to plug in their bike to recharge, drawing power from the electrical grid? For the big lithium battery? On a bike that requires more material to manufacture?

This article makes it seem like using an ebike use is basically subsidized by non-renewable resources; not environmentally conscious at all.

[fa63]

The benefit-to-cost is much better when an e-bike replaces a car, and not a regular bicycle. Pretty much everyone I know who owns an e-bike uses it primarily for commuting, and replaced their car trips with e-bike ones.

[Tony]

I've mtb'ed a specialized turbo levo a few times, it was plenty of work. You still have to work the bike in the technical sections and thru turns and what not. Not having the suspension set up correctly would really wear you out. Faster? Oh yeah. More fun than should be legal on a Sunday in a state forest

Part of me wants to take a step thru Como to a group rideand shred everyone in a sombrero, cutoffs and a umbrella drink in hand. A couple go up to 28 mph

For those of you getting your campagnolo panties in a twist over the mere concept of ebikes, buck up...because they are coming. They sell. Folks of all ages, shapes and sizes like to ride, too - and they are buying these things by the truckload. For some people, riding a bike doesn't have to be an S&M experience, it can be just plain old fun

The tribe gets bigger and more mainstream and there is nothing wrong with that

They are coming. I see many now on my local trails. Last year while in Bend and Oakridge OR where they are NOT legal to ride, people are still showing up on ebikes.

[benb]

Definitely agree on the whole replacing a car thing.

The article doesn't say anything about who the riders were or how they normally rode.

The effort based on HR on the eBikes could 93% of a zone 1 heart rate.

It doesn't mean the same thing if they're studying casual "non-cyclists" who weren't going to ride hard to begin with vs running the study with a bunch of riders who are used to going out and riding at high intensity.

But I bet it could hold up at higher intensity too anyway.. if you want to ride the thing hard and you're fit you can still ride it hard assuming it has tall enough gearing. You're just going to be going REALLY fast.

Still I don't see these things being terribly fun as long as they weigh a ton.

[fa63]

They are coming down in weight; something like this would be fun to test ride in the North GA mountains:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cannondale-launches-113kg-supersix-evo-neo-road-e-bike/

[benb]

Read the study.. it is pretty thin.

They had the riders ride a fixed course it sounds like it was just 5.5 miles... on average it took them 38 minutes on the conventional bike and 26 on the eBikes. (8.8mph on the bikes vs 12.9mph on the eBikes) . 700ft of elevation gain so pretty good actually.. longest climb was 5% for 1 mile.

They used the old 220-age thing to estimate heart rates. Average HR on the bikes was 155 vs 145 for bike:eBike respectively.

It does sound like they had a good mix of riders based on age & fitness.

I think this would be much better if they:
- Did a lot more miles
- Did it on road or something where technical limitations were taken out of the equation

Wrestling the eBike if it weighs 50lbs through an actual real mountain bike trail would make the difference in effort a lot higher I think. You can't tell what they were actually riding through though.. buffed & flat would be very different than rolling/hilly/mountainous and rock/rooty/technical here.

My HR doesn't go crazy MTBing anyway unless things get really steep. If I run my HR/power up towards threshold too much it's a great recipe for a crash cause I won't have enough in reserve to ride smoothly, etc..

[XXtwindad]

I've mtb'ed a specialized turbo levo a few times, it was plenty of work. You still have to work the bike in the technical sections and thru turns and what not. Not having the suspension set up correctly would really wear you out. Faster? Oh yeah. More fun than should be legal on a Sunday in a state forest

Part of me wants to take a step thru Como to a group rideand shred everyone in a sombrero, cutoffs and a umbrella drink in hand. A couple go up to 28 mph

For those of you getting your campagnolo panties in a twist over the mere concept of ebikes, buck up...because they are coming. They sell. Folks of all ages, shapes and sizes like to ride, too - and they are buying these things by the truckload. For some people, riding a bike doesn't have to be an S&M experience, it can be just plain old fun

The tribe gets bigger and more mainstream and there is nothing wrong with that

I thought I just had "road rash." :)

[Ralph]

What about the idea that E bikes can get some people out who wouldn't ordinarily ride a bike? handicapped, older people, people recovering from illnesses, not very strong, etc. E assist just makes riding easier, and some of the "Townie" designs (thinking Electra) put the feet closer to the ground for more stability for people concerned about their balance (IE blood pressure meds). Performance riders are not the only group out there.

My wife rides an Electra Townie GO 8D.....a bike (cruiser style) most of you would not be caught dead on.....but it's perfect for her. She can put her feet down on pavement. I just finished putting a motorcycle style rear view mirror on hers so she can see what's coming behind her. We have lots of smooth paved almost deserted wide trails around here, and she rides them. This bike changed her life. Got her out. Lots of E bikes around here, but I don't see too many E bikes of the performance variety, mostly the type that helps non riders get out.

[mtechnica]

if you output the same amount of power you’ll get the same workout no matter what bike... lol...

[Dave]

The new Cannondale looks interesting, but I'll bet the price is really high. I could see using minimal or no assist on the easier parts of my ride and cheating on the toughest hills. I often get reminded how slow I've become when a serious rider half my age goes way faster up a big hill. I'd love to keep up.

I'd be able to ride quite a bit farther with a little assist. Most of my routes are tough, so l limit the length of most rides to 40 miles.

The real conclusion to the e-bike test should have been that it's up to the rider to decide how hard to work. I always use a heart rate monitor to insure that I'm not loafing or over doing it. A power meter would just be a reminder of how low my power output is for a given heart rate.

[Tony]

Read the study.. it is pretty thin.

They had the riders ride a fixed course it sounds like it was just 5.5 miles... on average it took them 38 minutes on the conventional bike and 26 on the eBikes. (8.8mph on the bikes vs 12.9mph on the eBikes) . 700ft of elevation gain so pretty good actually.. longest climb was 5% for 1 mile.

They used the old 220-age thing to estimate heart rates. Average HR on the bikes was 155 vs 145 for bike:eBike respectively.

It does sound like they had a good mix of riders based on age & fitness.

I think this would be much better if they:
- Did a lot more miles
- Did it on road or something where technical limitations were taken out of the equation

Wrestling the eBike if it weighs 50lbs through an actual real mountain bike trail would make the difference in effort a lot higher I think. You can't tell what they were actually riding through though.. buffed & flat would be very different than rolling/hilly/mountainous and rock/rooty/technical here.

My HR doesn't go crazy MTBing anyway unless things get really steep. If I run my HR/power up towards threshold too much it's a great recipe for a crash cause I won't have enough in reserve to ride smoothly, etc..

While demoing an ebike here in Auburn CA where many trails are rocky, technical I found the weight to be beneficial in some areas, felt more planted, less effort. Have you rode one?
Several friends including myself are waiting for refinement before purchasing, maybe next year.

[benb]

I've rode eBikes in the past but not for the past few years... I haven't tried any of the new wave of fancy ones.. certainly never tried anything with the high performance we're starting to see.

Let's be clear here.. this a single study with a small sample size that sounds like it only tested one day on one course! It has not been tested or duplicated anywhere else yet. It's not that meaningful from a scientific standpoint. There could be big flaws in it.

The really disappointing thing about the test is they could have done so much better just by fitting Garmins or Wahoos + Power meters to the bikes and using something like Training Peaks to mine more insight out of the data.

I wonder if another factor in this particular test has to do with a lot of time spent descending and that the course sounds like it kept speeds well below the speeds where the eBikes stop assisting (20mph).

[benb]

While demoing an ebike here in Auburn CA where many trails are rocky, technical I found the weight to be beneficial in some areas, felt more planted, less effort.

Demoing.. could have been that the eBike was better setup for your weight. Also the total weight of the eBike is so high it reduces the % of the system that the rider contributes.. I think that makes it easier to get the suspension in the sweet spot assuming we're talking suspended mountain bikes.

Motorcycles always felt like they had wide sweet spots compared to mountain bikes to me.

[Mark McM]

I saw that study mentioned locally yesterday too. Isn't power a lot more accurate than HR to study exertion? We sure hear that on these bike forums all the time.

Maybe on a road bike (or riding on generally smooth terrain), but not necessarily for riding technical off-road terrain. Riding an off-road motorcycle through technical terrain can be a work out, even if the rider is supplying no power to the drivetrain.

Which gets to another point: This study essentially tested recreational eMTB riding on off-road terrain, which is quite a bit different from utility riding on pavement, so I don't think you can extrapolate the results to all types of e-bikes. Afterall, much of the enjoyment of eMTB riding is from the speeds you can attain and maintain over terrain, so it should be surprising that the main difference wasn't the power the riders applied, but the speeds they rode. In a way, adding a motor to the eMTB might be analogous to riding lightweight or aerodynamic bikes - riders usually don't get lightweight or aerodynamic bikes so they can work less, they get them so they can go faster for the same amount of work.

[redir]

I would be surprised to hear any 'real' cyclist say that riding an eBike is just as hard as riding their push bikes. I've ridden quite a few eBikes, man they are fun! But that 'study' is plain and simple BS. The eBikes I have ridden all you do is push on pedal and off ya go... Gimme a break :help:

[Tony]

Demoing.. could have been that the eBike was better setup for your weight. Also the total weight of the eBike is so high it reduces the % of the system that the rider contributes.. I think that makes it easier to get the suspension in the sweet spot assuming we're talking suspended mountain bikes.

Motorcycles always felt like they had wide sweet spots compared to mountain bikes to me.

The bike I demoed was a specialized turbo levo. The shop setup the suspension for me and it did feel dialed in, maybe the weight did help in that area.
The bike I'm looking at and most likely will purchase is the YT decoy. https://us.yt-industries.com/detail/index/sArticle/2202/sCategory/73537

[fa63]

I would be surprised to hear any 'real' cyclist say that riding an eBike is just as hard as riding their push bikes. I've ridden quite a few eBikes, man they are fun! But that 'study' is plain and simple BS. The eBikes I have ridden all you do is push on pedal and off ya go... Gimme a break :help:Not really; if you push just as hard on the e-bike (and you can do that), you just go a lot faster as that study indicated.

[Tony]

Not really; if you push just as hard on the e-bike (and you can do that), you just go a lot faster as that study indicated.

We sometimes do a shop loop that has two long climbs, one on asphalt other on fire road. That day I demoed seemed like I got the same workout just so much faster. Did tow a couple folks :)
I could have done the shop loop three times in the time it takes to do it once.

[Mark McM]

Not really; if you push just as hard on the e-bike (and you can do that), you just go a lot faster as that study indicated.

There is an old saying that has been around since long before the ebike was invented. This saying has been attributed to multiple people, although probably nobody knows who originated it. It is about the affects of training and physical condition, although it is probably analogous to ebikes:

"Training doesn't make riding any easier - you just go faster."

[Tony]

Benb, here is the same spot I was referring to when I said "rocky, technical" starting at 5:45.
This video is one of our local rider on a ebike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Sg3bcBdxE&t=423s

[joosttx]

I know a few racers and serious cyclists who use them as a computer on their recovery days. This allows them get to work fast without going over their recovery threshold

[Duende]

These studies will help sell more ebikes. Mission accomplished.

[72gmc]

"If you work just as hard, you'll work just as hard" is not really worthy of an article unless you need a reason to write a headline that misrepresents the study. I'd be interested to know which donor(s) funded the internal grant at BYU that made this study possible.

[Robot870]

Had one for about a year. Major workout with a spare battery......4hr rides on old MX trails and it was awesome fun!

[45K10]

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

[benb]

There's no doubt you can get a workout without actually applying power.

Riding motorcycles at the track (paved) is a workout that to me feels a lot like snowboarding or skiing.

Not the same thing as riding a bike.

It could be an eBike shifts the workout away from a "road style" workout towards a "gravity bike" type ride.

The guys doing downhill MTB are getting a workout, it's just not the same thing. No different than MTB being different than road.

[Mark McM]

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

Some studies show that (non-electric) bikes roughly the same amount of damage to trails as foot traffic per mile. So one argument is that bikes produce more total damage because riders typically do more miles. If so, then one could argue that eMTBs would do even more damage, by allowing riders to do even more miles.

I'm personally against eMTBs on single-track trails, but more due to the issue of the slippery slope: Once you let some type of motorized vehicles on single track, you open the door to other motorized vehicles.

[peanutgallery]

https://www.imba.com/education/emtb

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

[benb]

Some studies show that (non-electric) bikes roughly the same amount of damage to trails as foot traffic per mile. So one argument is that bikes produce more total damage because riders typically do more miles. If so, then one could argue that eMTBs would do even more damage, by allowing riders to do even more miles.

I'm personally against eMTBs on single-track trails, but more due to the issue of the slippery slope: Once you let some type of motorized vehicles on single track, you open the door to other motorized vehicles.

This makes a lot of sense because I think the perception is that braking does more damage than pedaling. Riders who are clumsy on the brakes tear stuff up real fast skidding their knobbies downhill and around slow switchbacks and stuff.

Even if the eMTBs never allow you to "spin through" and ride a little bit of a spinning tire where you couldn't without the motor if they let you cover 50% more ground that's 50% more corners/switchbacks/downhills you might be skidding your tires & tearing up the trail on in the same amount of time.

[Ralph]

You could make the argument that on an E Bike.....you can ride further and faster....so on a 2 hour work out....with E bike going further and faster.....exercise output could be similar. After all....on both example comparing regular bike to E bike....you go all out for 2 hours either way.

But I don't think most of us ride that way. I have a 35 mile route I like to ride during the week. I'm definitely less tired after I do that ride on E bike than on a regular bike. I think it's because I make close to same effort for less time.

[45K10]

https://www.imba.com/education/emtb

Thanks I didn't know anyone had done any studies but the study:

https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a0f32317_g3m6bdt7g.pdf

by IMBA's own admission was limited in scope and only tested one class of e-bikes and pertained only to "trail damage".

I feel there should be more data obtained especially concerning how riding e-bikes affects other trail users while both are using the trail at the same time.

My fear is someone in over their heads on an e-bike is going to plow into an equestrian or a hiker and then all bikes will be banned from the trails.

[redir]

Not really; if you push just as hard on the e-bike (and you can do that), you just go a lot faster as that study indicated.

Yeah I understand that but they clearly insinuate that you get just as much exercise on the eBike versus a regular bike and of course the Internet runs with it as the truth. The reality of course is that for the same distance covered over the same time the eBike rider will do far less work. It's how motor doping works after all.

In the other thread I made a comment about using flippers at a swim meet.

Sure I can push flippers real hard too and get a great workout.

[benb]

As soon as an eBike gives you enough power that you can spin the rear tire through a loose section like a motorcycle/ATV they'll be a massive disaster for the trails.

[Burnette]

As soon as an eBike gives you enough power that you can spin the rear tire through a loose section like a motorcycle/ATV they'll be a massive disaster for the trails.

Ebikes would be enveloped by the many trail advocacy groups that cover the MTB, motorbike and ATV worlds.

If we can make it work with motorcycles and ATVs, we can make it work with ebikes.

I think there's a frame builder who advocates for the trails not far from where he builds/rides.

[Mark McM]

Ebikes would be enveloped by the many trail advocacy groups that cover the MTB, motorbike and ATV worlds.

If we can make it work with motorcycles and ATVs, we can make it work with ebikes.

Most of the public lands and open space where I ride my MTB (southeastern New England) are specifically marked "No motorized vehicles." So, it appears the way they "made it work" with motorcycles and ATVs was to ban them. The decisions to exclude motorized vehicles were probably made before the advent of the eMTB, but as eMTBs are still motorized vehicles so they would also be excluded under these rules (and probably should be).

[Burnette]

Most of the public lands and open space where I ride my MTB (southeastern New England) are specifically marked "No motorized vehicles." So, it appears the way they "made it work" with motorcycles and ATVs was to ban them. The decisions to exclude motorized vehicles were probably made before the advent of the eMTB, but as eMTBs are still motorized vehicles so they would also be excluded under these rules (and probably should be).

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

[Mark McM]

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

I get what you are saying, but I think you're suggesting to fine a level of distinction than is practical. eMTBs can have varying levels of power assist, from nearly none to a lot. While you could try to find out what level of eMTB power assist causes damage above or below some threshold, how would you formulate a practical regulation so it was clear which eMTBs were allowed and which weren't? But an even bigger distinction might be one of politics and perception. There are many areas were it was difficult to get access for standard MTBs, or where standard MTBs are grudgingly tolerated. In those areas, if a push was made to allow eMTBs (which most non-cyclists can't distinguish by eye for standard MTBs), it could lead to banning (or re-banning) of all wheeled vehicles. The main advocacy organization for MTBs in New England is the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA), whose position on eMTBs (https://www.nemba.org/news/nembas-position-power-assisted-bicycles-and-trails) is:

“The recreational use of electric and power-assisted bicycles, ORVs or ATVs on natural surface trails should be managed using the same guidelines and policies as other motorized vehicles.”

[benb]

I don't know about the eMTBs in terms of where they will end up falling on the spectrum of hiker -> MTBer -> eMTBer -> Horse -> OHV.

An X/C cross country race or a cyclocross race with 100 participants will do massive damage.

But 5 guys on ATVs can probably do that much damage in an afternoon. And horses can do some massive damage really fast too.

I kind of expect eMTBs to fall in very close to MTBs unless the riders start modifying them.

When you spin the tire on a MTB your pedal drops to the bottom of the pedal stroke as if you dropped your chain.. it takes a lot of care not to have to dab. If the eMTB does the same thing and the power drops to 0 cause you're not pedaling they will be fine cause that will cause the rider to behave like a regular cyclist. If "eMTB" ends up meaning something with a thumb/twist throttle you'll be able to set the pedals level and hold your body still and let the motor spin you up/through and then they'll do a lot more damage. It's way way easier to spin the tire on a dirt bike and maintain control than it is on a MTB.

The options here for Dirt Bikes and ATVs are extremely thin... private property and maybe one state park in Western Massachusetts. Most people that hobby means: 1) Buy a truck 2) Buy a trailer 3) Drive to NH where they let everyone rip everything to shreds.

[Tony]

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

Here's video of several e mtbs in different conditions. How much difference do you see compared to a mtb? None
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1hZEwM7T6A

[Burnette]

I get what you are saying, but I think you're suggesting to fine a level of distinction than is practical. eMTBs can have varying levels of power assist, from nearly none to a lot. While you could try to find out what level of eMTB power assist causes damage above or below some threshold, how would you formulate a practical regulation so it was clear which eMTBs were allowed and which weren't? But an even bigger distinction might be one of politics and perception. There are many areas were it was difficult to get access for standard MTBs, or where standard MTBs are grudgingly tolerated. In those areas, if a push was made to allow eMTBs (which most non-cyclists can't distinguish by eye for standard MTBs), it could lead to banning (or re-banning) of all wheeled vehicles. The main advocacy organization for MTBs in New England is the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA), whose position on eMTBs (https://www.nemba.org/news/nembas-position-power-assisted-bicycles-and-trails) is:

True, again, I've never ridden and ebike MTB and I agree that it would be hard access the damage they do versus regular MTBs but it's worth figuring out to form a valid and accurate claim. From my couch it seems like they would be way worse than a large group but I have no idea if that's true.

I do get the point that if pushed, ebike MTBs could cause the banning of all types on some trails, that's a real possibility as being heavy handed and following an easy path is what committees do best. And that isn't good for anyone.

I don't think assited power is a draw for me persoanlly, I can climb well enough, I just don't ride off road hardly at all and lack the technical skills. An ebike would only make me crash faster :) For now the road still is my place to ride.

But I do see the draw of ebike MTBs for others, you can ride faster and for longer (Viagra for bicycles :banana:) and I'm sure they will find an audience.

To your point I hope they find a way to coexist without rocking the boat. Thank you for your thoughts.

[rinconryder]

It’s pretty simple really. For the same effort level on an E bike (watts) you are going to cover more ground. So if you were to compare an e bike vs regular bike and capped the distance to 20 miles for both the rider on the regular bike will have worked harder. But if you went off of time and said both ride an hour the same energy can be output, the e bike will just have covered more ground.

[Burnette]

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

Good to know.

And you hit on something I couldn't articulate earlier. On the groups rides on single track, as I posted, we did a good job of kicking up dirt, skidding mostly and I really should go back and replant a sapling or two I took out. I see what you're saying about personal responsibility.

Unless an ebiker is doing continuous burnouts is she/he really any worse than a regular bike? Skidding, going off track are the same on either ebike or regular bike I guess

As far as trail damage goes, is the only difference between an ebike and a regular bike is that you can spin the rear tire faster and longer? And to your point does anybody really do that? You would have to be an irresponsible person to do that and that's not the ebike's fault.

[Jaybee]

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

This has been mostly my experience as well. I'm maybe a little cynical about trail user conflicts and e-bikes being used as loophole to close trails to regular bikes, but more damage happens to the trails in Golden on a single muddy morning with hikers/bikers/equestrians than e-bikers on a normal day. If I had to single out a group that disproportionately harms the trail, it would be the horse people.

IME, most dry condition trail damage from bikes occurs on descents from sloppy braking into corners and skidding, not from spinning the tires on low traction climbs.

[benb]

Here's the thing.. if eMTBs start looking attractive to the crowd that would normally ride a dirt bike or ATV as a second bike due to better access you can guarantee they will very quickly be developing mods to:

- Uncap speed limits
- Boost watts
- Either change or eliminate the need to pedal all together

It is a given.. that is a crowd that loves to tinker and is very libertarian and doesn't like being told what they can and cannot do. A huge majority of that crowd that plays with gasoline will happily do mods that are technically illegal and even the shops that do inspections make sure the stickers get passed out anyway! I am pretty left leaning and environmentally conscious and I did those mods too.

I agree on the equestrian front.. massive hypocrisy there.. never seen an equestrian trail maintenance group. Lots of whining from them about other users. 100% clear as day when you see horses they are trashing the trail. Never see the riders clean up the waste either. Skill & Annoyance level of that crowd seems to be heavily dependent on the area though... wealthy suburban area where the rider pays someone else to board/care for the horse, maximum annoying. More rural area where the rider is the owner of both horse and stable & caretaker they are not annoying at all.

[Tony]

Good to know.

And you hit on something I couldn't articulate earlier. On the groups rides on single track, as I posted, we did a good job of kicking up dirt, skidding mostly and I really should go back and replant a sapling or two I took out. I see what you're saying about personal responsibility.

Unless an ebiker is doing continuous burnouts is she/he really any worse than a regular bike? Skidding, going off track are the same on either ebike or regular bike I guess

As far as trail damage goes, is the only difference between an ebike and a regular bike is that you can spin the rear tire faster and longer? And to your point does anybody really do that? You would have to be an irresponsible person to do that and that's not the ebike's fault.

None of the e mtbs I'm familiar with can do burn outs.
The video posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1hZEwM7T6A none of those bikes can break traction

[Burnette]

I don't know about the eMTBs in terms of where they will end up falling on the spectrum of hiker -> MTBer -> eMTBer -> Horse -> OHV.

An X/C cross country race or a cyclocross race with 100 participants will do massive damage.

But 5 guys on ATVs can probably do that much damage in an afternoon. And horses can do some massive damage really fast too.

I kind of expect eMTBs to fall in very close to MTBs unless the riders start modifying them.

When you spin the tire on a MTB your pedal drops to the bottom of the pedal stroke as if you dropped your chain.. it takes a lot of care not to have to dab. If the eMTB does the same thing and the power drops to 0 cause you're not pedaling they will be fine cause that will cause the rider to behave like a regular cyclist. If "eMTB" ends up meaning something with a thumb/twist throttle you'll be able to set the pedals level and hold your body still and let the motor spin you up/through and then they'll do a lot more damage. It's way way easier to spin the tire on a dirt bike and maintain control than it is on a MTB.

The options here for Dirt Bikes and ATVs are extremely thin... private property and maybe one state park in Western Massachusetts. Most people that hobby means: 1) Buy a truck 2) Buy a trailer 3) Drive to NH where they let everyone rip everything to shreds.

I have self diagnosed OCPD and going through data and doing the numbers is fun for me.

If I win the lottery, after saving the world and buying that island I would take 100 traditional MTBs, 100 ebike MTBs with the same riders and have them ride the same trail a month apart and go out check the trail after each run.

Well, I would have someone else to check the trail, I would be rich and way too busy to do the leg work but it would be interesting to see the difference.

If you've tested enough theories you know that sometimes what everybody thought was common sense true actually in reality wasn't once tested.

On your last note I sold my ATV a decade ago because there was nowhere to ride unless you packed it up and took it somewhere way off. Looks like I should have moved to NH.

[Burnette]

None of the e mtbs I'm familiar with can do burn outs.

Gotya, again, I'm learning from you guys who know. And it's interesting reading. If you can't spin the rear tire like a motor bike then the argument that ebikes cause more harm gets harder to make.

[Tony]

Gotya, again, I'm learning from you guys who know. And it's interesting reading. If you can't spin the rear tire like a motor bike then the argument that ebikes cause more harm gets harder to make.

It's not like a motor bike, anything with a throttle is not an e mtb

[Mark McM]

I agree on the equestrian front.. massive hypocrisy there.. never seen an equestrian trail maintenance group. Lots of whining from them about other users. 100% clear as day when you see horses they are trashing the trail. Never see the riders clean up the waste either. Skill & Annoyance level of that crowd seems to be heavily dependent on the area though... wealthy suburban area where the rider pays someone else to board/care for the horse, maximum annoying. More rural area where the rider is the owner of both horse and stable & caretaker they are not annoying at all.

This is where (sadly) politics come into play. The horse riders (and hikers) got there first, and they'll do what it takes to keep others out. Science and facts often get trumped by influence and money. It useless to argue that not only have studies been done that show horses do more trail damage than other users, but horses are no more natural to the trails than bicycles are (horses are not native to the Americas, and were imported from Europe). And it could be argued that bicycles are more utilitarian than horses as well - when was the last time you saw someone commute to work or run errands on a horse? For most owners, horses are essentially pets - very large pets, but still pets.

[XXtwindad]

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20033561/imba-supports-e-mountain-bikes-on-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

[Burnette]

It's not like a motor bike, anything with a throttle is not an e mtb


I honestly didn't know that Tony!

I've never ridden one and thanks for sharing what you know and the video. It was informative.

About the video, wow, I get it, they look like fun!

[Tony]

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20033561/imba-supports-e-mountain-bikes-on-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

These are folks who have never been on a e mtb, I know, I was one of them.

[Burnette]

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20033561/imba-supports-e-mountain-bikes-on-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

Those people in the tribe argument need to get over themselves.

[XXtwindad]

These are folks who have never been on a e mtb, I know, I was one of them.

I think that's addressed later in the article. I think there was a shift in attitudes, although I think it broke down along age lines, with older riders more in favor.

[pdmtong]

on the e-road bike front (see Pelican's comments as well!)

https://www.velonews.com/2019/11/bikes-and-tech/performance-e-road-bikes-make-the-hills-easier-who-wants-that_502712

from Specialized
“There is no question, e-road bikes can make climbs easier, and for many riders that is a wonderful thing,” Edwards says. “But with the right e-road bike, an e-road bike that still feels like a great road bike, we’ve found that riders don’t climb any easier, they just go faster and climb farther. Riders who love the challenge of climbing will find that a great e-road bike opens up more great climbing. It does not eliminate the joy or effort, it amplifies it.”

from Trek
“First, I think we need to establish that everyone rides for a different reason, so saying that road riding is all about suffering is just one perspective,” Albergh says. “Second, I think there’s a tremendous amount of privilege in saying that only riders with a certain fitness level are capable of enjoying certain rides and climbs. We’re finding that the riders that can most enjoy an e-road experience are seeing the value pretty readily. We just need to get the haters—who realistically, are happy on their ‘acoustic’ bikes—to be more welcoming to everyone.”

[Burnette]

on the e-road bike front (see Pelican's comments as well!)

https://www.velonews.com/2019/11/bikes-and-tech/performance-e-road-bikes-make-the-hills-easier-who-wants-that_502712

from Specialized
“There is no question, e-road bikes can make climbs easier, and for many riders that is a wonderful thing,” Edwards says. “But with the right e-road bike, an e-road bike that still feels like a great road bike, we’ve found that riders don’t climb any easier, they just go faster and climb farther. Riders who love the challenge of climbing will find that a great e-road bike opens up more great climbing. It does not eliminate the joy or effort, it amplifies it.”

from Trek
“First, I think we need to establish that everyone rides for a different reason, so saying that road riding is all about suffering is just one perspective,” Albergh says. “Second, I think there’s a tremendous amount of privilege in saying that only riders with a certain fitness level are capable of enjoying certain rides and climbs. We’re finding that the riders that can most enjoy an e-road experience are seeing the value pretty readily. We just need to get the haters—who realistically, are happy on their ‘acoustic’ bikes—to be more welcoming to everyone.”

I agree with the sentiment. Ebikes may be the thing that gets my wife to riding. We have 11, 12, 15% hills here and she will never be into cycling enough to gain the fitness to ride the terrain, she will always be a casual rider and ebikes offer a way for her to join something that was unaccessible before.

She enjoys cycling but, as the link states, could care less about the suffering we do. And I don't think any less of her for it :banana:

[XXtwindad]

on the e-road bike front (see Pelican's comments as well!)

https://www.velonews.com/2019/11/bikes-and-tech/performance-e-road-bikes-make-the-hills-easier-who-wants-that_502712

from Specialized
“There is no question, e-road bikes can make climbs easier, and for many riders that is a wonderful thing,” Edwards says. “But with the right e-road bike, an e-road bike that still feels like a great road bike, we’ve found that riders don’t climb any easier, they just go faster and climb farther. Riders who love the challenge of climbing will find that a great e-road bike opens up more great climbing. It does not eliminate the joy or effort, it amplifies it.”

from Trek
“First, I think we need to establish that everyone rides for a different reason, so saying that road riding is all about suffering is just one perspective,” Albergh says. “Second, I think there’s a tremendous amount of privilege in saying that only riders with a certain fitness level are capable of enjoying certain rides and climbs. We’re finding that the riders that can most enjoy an e-road experience are seeing the value pretty readily. We just need to get the haters—who realistically, are happy on their ‘acoustic’ bikes—to be more welcoming to everyone.”

In related news, the cattle industry has just released a study showing that beef is a great source of protein :)

I've got nothing against eBikes. For many people, they make a lot of sense. But, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the big bike manufacturers have some vested interest in their success...

[Burnette]

In related news, the cattle industry has just released a study showing that beef is a great source of protein :)

I've got nothing against eBikes. For many people, they make a lot of sense. But, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the big bike manufacturers have some vested interest in their success...

This is the same wrong headed argument people here try to make about disc brakes on bicycles.

Consumers drive the market and ebikes have found an audience. Manufacturers are filling that need. You see CUV/SUV models increase and sedan models discontinued because people are buying more of the former.

It's an insult to say people are buying ebikes just because of industry hype. If we were to ask members here to stick out their tongues we would see red, purple and green from the Kool Aid drank of their favorite brands that hyped their product. And there's nothing wrong with that, just don't disparage another for buying the brands and items they like.

[XXtwindad]

This is the same wrong headed argument people here try to make about disc brakes on bicycles.

Consumers drive the market and ebikes have found an audience. Manufacturers are filling that need. You see CUV/SUV models increase and sedan models discontinued because people are buying more of the former.

It's an insult to say people are buying ebikes just because of industry hype. If we were to ask members here to stick out their tongues we would see red, purple and green from the Kool Aid drank of their favorite brands that hyped their product. And there's nothing wrong with that, just don't disparage another for buying the brands and items they like.

I never said anything about industry hype. I think eBikes are the wave of the future. They're coming. On the whole, given the environmental benefits, I think it's a net positive.

I merely said that quoting the bike industry about the positive aspects of eBikes is going to yield a certain result.

[AngryScientist]

warning: i had to close the last e-bike thread because it spiraled into a big argument. let's not go down that same road.

Burnette: I'm looking at you. You don't get to decide who's opinion is "wrong headed". Discuss the issue, not attack other member's opinions.

[Burnette]

I never said anything about industry hype. I think eBikes are the wave of the future. They're coming. On the whole, given the environmental benefits, I think it's a net positive.

I merely said that quoting the bike industry about the positive aspects of eBikes is going to yield a certain result.

Ah, but isn't it an old trope that suggest that people are like sheep, led only by hype?

It gives the industry too much credit and consumers not enough. Industries of every field have hyped products that companies have spent millions of dollars on only to see them fail. If we don't buy they don't sell and we don't buy if we don't want.

And of course companies will indeed hype their products. Everything in our cupboards, garages and closets is and was hyped.

Funny that the link pdmtong provided about said something about suffering. It's part of cycling for me, being endorphin junky who pushes his own limits (it's a short trip :banana:), but I get that cycling is broader than my personal chosen way to enjoy it.

As you say companies are investing big in ebikes but it's not a foregone conclusion they'll be a hit, nor do they know exactly how big or small actual demand will be. With all business it's a gamble and some will win, some will lose.

Ebikes don't intrigue me as a consumer myself but they do as a gear geek. Motors, wheels and gears and I'll read about them even if they're not for me.

[Burnette]

warning: i had to close the last e-bike thread because it spiraled into a big argument. let's not go down that same road.

Burnette: I'm looking at you. You don't get to decide who's opinion is "wrong headed". Discuss the issue, not attack other member's opinions.

Not attacking at all AS, I believe in inclusivity and the notion that some are just falling for industry hype in their purchases versus what everyone else here is doing wasn't a fair assessment.

Cycling is many things to many people and it's definition will seemingly expand with advent of ebikes. I hope we can be welcoming to it as they will allow more people to enjoy our interest. With more people maybe more attention will be given to our cause in infrastructure and making new laws.

[benb]

There are a couple other big negatives not being discussed..

eBikes surely have a higher environmental impact.. you're riding around with a big LiIon battery and who knows what other exotic materials in the motor that have an additional environmental impact over a regular bicycle.

It is kind of hard for me to believe these aren't being seen as a quick buck by the bike companies. Specialized & Trek are selling "whoa" expensive eBikes where I am. My guess is the margin is very healthy and they're super excited there's a new segment of consumer they can upsell a $3000-5000 eBike too who would have bought a $500 hybrid before. It's a whole new segment of people who think we're ridiculous to buy expensive high performance pedal bikes.. but these new bikes make it easy.. so you can self justify the price as it being cheaper than a motorcycle.

[fa63]

If e-bikes are seen as replacing regular bikes, then their environmental footprint will indeed be worse. But if they can replace a percentage of car trips, even for a relatively small number of overall purchasers, then they will likely have a net positive environmental impact.

For reference, almost 40% of urban local car trips in the US are less than 3 miles in length. In places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam, well over 50% of such trips are covered by bike. In a place that is not flat, an e-bike can reduce barriers to cycling.

This is assuming we can provide adequate cycling infrastructure, which also has the benefit of being far cheaper and environmentally friendly as compared to building more vehicle lanes.

And then there are the health benefits as well.

[XXtwindad]

I have a question for the recreational eBikers. Not so much the commuters, which I can completely understand. (I also think the inclusion/exclusion angle has been covered ad nauseum, so no reason to rehash that...)

The article pdmtong linked was interesting. Part of the (stated) impetus for the new eBikes was to take recreational cycling out of the "Sufferfest" domain.

But for me, climbing up hills in not about suffering. Or racing. It's about clearing my head and giving me balance. It's my Zen. Life slows down for me when I'm on my bike.

It would seem logical that an eBike might be the antithesis of that. It has the capability to go much faster, after all. If I could go 25 MPH on a bike, why would I go ten MPH? That just seems to be a matter of human nature.

Does eBiking provide the same amount of mental satisfaction? I'd like to hear from any Forum members who have used an eBike for longer recreational rides.

[Mark McM]

I have a question for the recreational eBikers. Not so much the commuters, which I can completely understand. (I also think the inclusion/exclusion angle has been covered ad nauseum, so no reason to rehash that...)

The article pdmtong linked was interesting. Part of the (stated) impetus for the new eBikes was to take recreational cycling out of the "Sufferfest" domain.

But for me, climbing up hills in not about suffering. Or racing. It's about clearing my head and giving me balance. It's my Zen. Life slows down for me when I'm on my bike.

It would seem logical that an eBike might be the antithesis of that. It has the capability to go much faster, after all. If I could go 25 MPH on a bike, why would I go ten MPH? That just seems to be a matter of human nature.

Does eBiking provide the same amount of mental satisfaction? I'd like to hear from any Forum members who have used an eBike for longer recreational rides.

I think you're asking the wrong crowd. Even activities that austensibly seem similar may attract different crowds and people, who are looking to get different types of satisfaction from them. For example, all types of skiing involve gliding on snow across natural terrain with your feet fastened to long skinny boards. But there's only marginal overlap among the people who do alpine skiing, ski touring, and backcountry skiing. And that's okay. Since most of us here have been cycling since before e-bikes became a thing, we are probably not the same crowd of people that are interested in e-bikes. And that's okay, too.

[nublar]

I have a question for the recreational eBikers. Not so much the commuters, which I can completely understand. (I also think the inclusion/exclusion angle has been covered ad nauseum, so no reason to rehash that...)

The article pdmtong linked was interesting. Part of the (stated) impetus for the new eBikes was to take recreational cycling out of the "Sufferfest" domain.

But for me, climbing up hills in not about suffering. Or racing. It's about clearing my head and giving me balance. It's my Zen. Life slows down for me when I'm on my bike.

It would seem logical that an eBike might be the antithesis of that. It has the capability to go much faster, after all. If I could go 25 MPH on a bike, why would I go ten MPH? That just seems to be a matter of human nature.

Does eBiking provide the same amount of mental satisfaction? I'd like to hear from any Forum members who have used an eBike for longer recreational rides.

It's fun but I don't get the same "runners high" as I do on the acoustic bike. After doing 30 miles in about an hour on the ebike, I still feel like I've barely ridden at all and I barely get out of HR zone 2 on the ebike.

[XXtwindad]

It's fun but I don't get the same "runners high" as I do on the acoustic bike. After doing 30 miles in about an hour on the ebike, I still feel like I've barely ridden at all and I barely get out of HR zone 2 on the ebike.

Yeah. This is what I wanted to know. Thanks.

[XXtwindad]

Haha. This just popped up in my inbox. Timing is everything.

https://www.bikemag.com/news/equestrians-sue-forest-service-over-e-mtb-access/?utm_source=email&em_hash=66870d59d23aa497ca5394951a47629a

[fa63]

But for me, climbing up hills in not about suffering. Or racing. It's about clearing my head and giving me balance. It's my Zen. Life slows down for me when I'm on my bike.

It would seem logical that an eBike might be the antithesis of that. It has the capability to go much faster, after all. If I could go 25 MPH on a bike, why would I go ten MPH? That just seems to be a matter of human nature.

Does eBiking provide the same amount of mental satisfaction? I'd like to hear from any Forum members who have used an eBike for longer recreational rides.

I am not a recreational e-biker (I commute on one), but I will give my perspective. Here in North Georgia, we have beautiful mountain climbs all over the place. I do these regularly on my "acoustic" bike, and there are many sections where it is more about survival (for me at least) than clearing the head and enjoying the scenery (Hogpen Gap, for example).

With an e-bike, a ride in the mountains could be a lot more enjoyable. Instead of pure suffering on the climbs, I could actually clear my head and enjoy the beautiful views :-) Not always, because there are times when I actually enjoy suffering a bit, but it would be a nice break from time to time.

Also, with something like the ebikemotion hub motor, you can dial the assist way down to the point where it only gives you enough to offset the additional mass of the system. Then you can up the assist to make the super steep sections more manageable.

I have been eyeing an Orbea Gain for a while for this reason, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I wouldn't sell my acoustic bike for that; it would be an addition to the stable.

[Ralph]

When you talk about E bikes….I think it's important to acknowledge there are several different levels of E bike power. And I understand that E MTN bikes may need more power than paved trail use.

Most of the ones on the paved trails my wife rides....are 250 Watt E assist only. No throttle. Top speed about 19-20 MPH. And it's not easy to get them to 20 MPH around here.

Some of these 500 watt and over E bikes with throttles seem more like motorcycles to me. Some have a top speed with throttles that make them into a totally different kind of bike.

[Burnette]

When you talk about E bikes….I think it's important to acknowledge there are several different levels of E bike power. And I understand that E MTN bikes may need more power than others.

Most of the ones on the paved trails my wife rides....are 250 Watt E assist only. No throttle. Top speed about 19-20 MPH. And it's not easy to get them to 20 MPH around here.

Some of these 500 watt and over E bikes with throttles seem more like motorcycles to me.

Can the ebikes with throttles spin the rear tire at will for distance? Or are they just quicker and have a higher top speed than the lower watt bikes?

[fa63]

Can the ebikes with throttles spin the rear tire at will for distance? Or are they just quicker and have a higher top speed than the lower watt bikes?

There is no tire spinning :) Also, the throttle cuts out at 20 mph. If you want to go faster than that, you have to pedal. Class 3 e-bikes cut off assist completely at 28 mph.

[Burnette]

There is no tire spinning :) Also, the throttle cuts out at 20 mph. If you want to go faster than that, you have to pedal. Class 3 e-bikes cut off assist completely at 28 mph.

It's funny but I'm a zinger, I would try to turn mountain biking into road biking. Friends would meet up at a trail and I would eventually gravitate to the fire road section and fly, having a ball, zing zing zing!. They would get me back to the technical stuff but I preferred the speed of the gravel roads.

I'm a light weight (135lbs to 145lbs depending on ice cream intake), my mountain bike weighs (which I gave to my sister because I didn't ride it much and I secretly hope she gets hooked and gets a road bike someday) something over twenty pounds and it's a hard tail. The technical trails gave me a full body workout, working the bike over obstacles.

Some Ebike mountain bikes are awfully heavy, do you feel that heft on the slow, technical directional change sections?

[fried bake]

I’ve thought about putting a power meter on my ebike just to understand what are the actual levels of assist (there are three) on my Orbea gain. However, that’s unlikely, as it’s damn expensive bike to begin with.

I have actually realized the limits of my and the bikes combined power on a 15% gradient but there are many factors beyond pure power to consider (gearing for one) and the fact that I cant get my heart rate above 150 for any sustained period.

Still, I ride more hills and feel much fresher (duh) afterward so the effort is clearly less. However the corollary is I ride more (typically each ride and over a given time period) and feel much more fit overall than when I rode exclusively analog.





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