eBiker uses the word "we" among a group of cyclists. Awkward silence ensues...

[XXtwindad]

Went out for a little ride today with a few buddies. Cresting a local gnarly hill (11% continual grade) when we got passed by an ebiker. We were grinding up the hill and he passed us like he wasn't even trying. He wasn't rude, he was just having a completely different experience than the rest of us.

Shortly thereafter, a car came too close to comfort to both myself and my buddies. At the crest of the hill, the ebiker (who was looking on his phone) commented on the car, which I guess had buzzed him as well.

"They don't know how we feel about them," he said.

No one really knew how to answer that. It caught me off guard. We all kind of nodded and grunted in assent. It was a tad awkward. The ebiker said something briefly and rode off.

I have nothing against ebikes. (although the fact that Ed Begley Jr is now a big advocate means they're ripe for parody). But I do wonder how they will expand - or limit - the definition of "cyclist" and all that it entails.

The ebiker was clearly on two wheels. And yet he hadn't worked nearly as hard as we did to crest that hill. Was the word "we" warranted?

I frankly have no idea. But it seems to me that this issue will become more and more prominent.

[peanutgallery]

You're overthinking it

[Elefantino]

Yes. Two wheels and pedaling. Definitely a "we." Particularly if access (however pricey) to e-bikes increases the numbers of "we."

[XXtwindad]

You're overthinking it

Could very well be.

[quickfeet]

This feels like the same interaction hybrid riders get at snobby bike shops...

[fa63]

Maybe he was a roadie who felt like riding his e-bike that day.

[Matthew]

On a bike and got buzzed by the same car as you. Definitely a "we" in this case. Just look at it as you guys worked harder to achieve the same goal of climbing that hill. Nothing more, nothing less. Biggest issue here was the jerk in the car.

[eddief]

I ride with 13 mph average group and many who participate are of retirement age or older. on a ride this week with 15 riders, 5 were on E bikes. we were all having fun...and it is interesting to hear my thoughts as I puff up the hill and the E's pass me like I'm standing still. no critique but we are at a turning point cuz zillions more are coming.

[charliedid]

We = Humans

Even people driving cars.

It could have been someone on a track bike riding a 52x14 (-:




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[rinconryder]

Not sure what kind of e-bike you are talking about but when talking about the pedal assist variety you are dead wrong to think you are different or somehow better than someone on an e-bike. I use an e-bike to commute to work most days because I have to get to work as quickly as possible to be on time. I work just as hard as I do as if I were on a standard bike but instead of going 20-21 I am able to hit 28. And yes the 15 minutes I save does matter. I get a good work out in, I am one less car and I am the same cyclist facing the same risks and getting the same exercise as I do on a regular bike.

I think it’s safe to assume you have never even ridden an e-bike or you would have never made this post.

[Burnette]

Went out for a little ride today with a few buddies. Cresting a local gnarly hill (11% continual grade) when we got passed by an ebiker. We were grinding up the hill and he passed us like he wasn't even trying. He wasn't rude, he was just having a completely different experience than the rest of us.

Shortly thereafter, a car came too close to comfort to both myself and my buddies. At the crest of the hill, the ebiker (who was looking on his phone) commented on the car, which I guess had buzzed him as well.

"They don't know how we feel about them," he said.

No one really knew how to answer that. It caught me off guard. We all kind of nodded and grunted in assent. It was a tad awkward. The ebiker said something briefly and rode off.

I have nothing against ebikes. (although the fact that Ed Begley Jr is now a big advocate means they're ripe for parody). But I do wonder how they will expand - or limit - the definition of "cyclist" and all that it entails.

The ebiker was clearly on two wheels. And yet he hadn't worked nearly as hard as we did to crest that hill. Was the word "we" warranted?

I frankly have no idea. But it seems to me that this issue will become more and more prominent.

Whether this guy was a runner running his route or a guy walking his dog, you were all the same in that you were passed unsafely by a motor vehicle. The "we" applies.

The intellectual excercise you're having about whether or not his mode of transport includes or excludes him from your clique is up to you.

IMO he wasn't asking to join your ride, he didn't critique your bicycles, he just made the connection that while on the road and getting buzzed you experienced the same thing.

An argument over whether or not ebikers are cyclist will ensue and from my perspective that is a funny first world non issue.

[XXtwindad]

Not sure what kind of e-bike you are talking about but when talking about the pedal assist variety you are dead wrong to think you are different or somehow better than someone on an e-bike. I use an e-bike to commute to work most days because I have to get to work as quickly as possible to be on time. I work just as hard as I do as if I were on a standard bike but instead of going 20-21 I am able to hit 28. And yes the 15 minutes I save does matter. I get a good work out in, I am one less car and I am the same cyclist facing the same risks and getting the same exercise as I do on a regular bike.

I think it’s safe to assume you have never even ridden an e-bike or you would have never made this post.

This is true. I've never ridden an ebike. I'm also completely unaccustomed to seeing them on my daily rides. There is nothing derogatory about the cyclist in my post. Af far my wondering about the "we" part of it, I think it's a perfectly valid conversation to have.

[palincss]

Went out for a little ride today with a few buddies. Cresting a local gnarly hill (11% continual grade) when we got passed by an ebiker. We were grinding up the hill and he passed us like he wasn't even trying. He wasn't rude, he was just having a completely different experience than the rest of us.

Shortly thereafter, a car came too close to comfort to both myself and my buddies. At the crest of the hill, the ebiker (who was looking on his phone) commented on the car, which I guess had buzzed him as well.

"They don't know how we feel about them," he said.

No one really knew how to answer that. It caught me off guard. We all kind of nodded and grunted in assent. It was a tad awkward. The ebiker said something briefly and rode off.

I have nothing against ebikes. (although the fact that Ed Begley Jr is now a big advocate means they're ripe for parody). But I do wonder how they will expand - or limit - the definition of "cyclist" and all that it entails.

The ebiker was clearly on two wheels. And yet he hadn't worked nearly as hard as we did to crest that hill. Was the word "we" warranted?

I frankly have no idea. But it seems to me that this issue will become more and more prominent.

Was he on two wheels? Was he passed too close by a car? Of course "we" was warranted.

[Dead Man]

dudes on choppers still wave at dudes on R6s.. two completely different riding experiences and lifestyles, but both are on two wheels and vulnerable road users facing similar risks out there. both riders standing around drinking beers bitching about "cagers" at the bar will say "we"

gotta change your mindset. expand your sphere of acceptance some my dawg

[vqdriver]

Funny how "we" cyclists self segregate into different tiers with varying degrees of legit-ness.
Also funny how getting passed by a car can toss all that out the window and instantly everyone feels the same vulnerability

[fried bake]

Funny how "we" cyclists self segregate into different tiers with varying degrees of legit-ness.

Also funny how getting passed by a car can toss all that out the window and instantly everyone feels the same vulnerability

This is the total and complete gist of the matter. There are cyclists and there are drivers—why complicate any further?


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[Burnette]

dudes on choppers still wave at dudes on R6s.. two completely different riding experiences and lifestyles, but both are on two wheels and vulnerable road users facing similar risks out there. both riders standing around drinking beers bitching about "cagers" at the bar will say "we"

gotta change your mindset. expand your sphere of acceptance some my dawg

"Expand your sphere of acceptance" is so apropos when it comes to cycling. The clique nature that creeps into our recreational activity has always been a downer IMO.

Your post reminded me of how many waves and thumbs up I got from motorcyclists while riding my bicycle.

CSB: a few years ago I was flying on a steep downhill when a large group of motorcyclist in rows of twos came up behind me. Two leaders passed but a slow car turning left way up ahead made the rest stay behind me. So I had two ahead, one beside me and the rest behind and we rode like that for quite a ways.

The loud sound of the pipes, my legs pedaling like crazy but holding position as they puttered, it was surreal.

The car eventually turned and the rider next to me joked that I should join. I laughed and pointed to the uphill approaching and gave a thumbs down. He laughed, they filtered around me with waves and thumbs up.

[eddief]

maybe it was your choice of words or tone, but this did sound "holier than thou" to me.

This is true. I've never ridden an ebike. I'm also completely unaccustomed to seeing them on my daily rides. There is nothing derogatory about the cyclist in my post. Af far my wondering about the "we" part of it, I think it's a perfectly valid conversation to have.

[pdmtong]

Perhaps the OP can list out the rider attributes or the types of bikes he would find acceptable to be included in his self-defined world of "we"

[saab2000]

How does the saying go?

In this case the enemy (e-cyclist) of my enemy (angry, aggressive motorist) is my friend. Case closed.

Leave in peace. Save the awkward silence for another time.

[XXtwindad]

Perhaps the OP can list out the rider attributes or the types of bikes he would find acceptable to be included in his self-defined world of "we"

Sure thing. Dark sense of humor. Really into history. Athletic. Likes long walks on the beach. Oh, wait a minute! This is the Paceline, not my Biking Personals Site.
My bad :)

[HenryA]

It can get worse.

This past summer I was riding with a group including my son and some of his friends and acquaintances. The age range was about 35-50. Except for me with 15 years on the oldest. Multiple full squish high end carbon bikes, one ebike and me on my ti hardtail. The ebike rider had been riding about a year.

After he’d ridden away on a steep hill he stopped at the top to warn me about the big rock on the left of the singletrack that he had hung a pedal on the last two rides, crashing both times. It was the most simple and obvious obstacle that required only a slight pause for pedal timing. After thirty plus years of MTB riding I didn’t need the warning, but he thought I did, ‘cause he had just ridden off and left me on the big climb. Later on he offered me a ride on his ebike. I tried it out, it made riding up hills into nothing.

I have to admit to being a bit miffed at his suggestions. But I smiled and thanked him anyway. He didn’t know any better but meant well. Hell, maybe I do need an ebike. For now though, I’ll pedal for myself.

[pdmtong]

Sure thing. Dark sense of humor. Really into history. Athletic. Likes long walks on the beach. Oh, wait a minute! This is the Paceline, not my Biking Personals Site.

My bad :)


Good one.

I saw plenty of e-road and e-mtb today.

Try one. Ideal for a lot of use cases.

The only e-bike aspect that makes me crazy is when used for commuting by the unskilled. These things give speed to people who are unpredictable and that makes it really dangerous for the rest of us non-motorized. Cannot tell you how many times I got surprised last year commuting in the city.

[Aaron O]

I mean, “we” climbing a hill? No. We getting buzzed by a car? Ok. I can see the we here as “we vulnerable forms of traffic”.

[joosttx]

This is a sad read. You need to come and ride in Marin where most people dont care what you ride or drive. Just be polite and inclusive would be my advice. Seems like you guys are fighting everyone on the road (cars and ebikes) that arent your bros.

MCBC and most folks I know here are happy more people are on the bikes regardless of the bike and that our local bike shops have found another revenue stream.

I have had plenty of conversations with guys on ebikes which usually begin with a "good morning" or "how you liking that bike" or "is that the new Specialized FS ebike" and ends with a tip of the hat of mutual respect, "you are guys are doing all the work", "its doesnt matter as long as you are outside".

Just be inclusive.

[FlashUNC]

When it's cars trying to kill us, we're all on the same team. Save the internecene fighting for later.

[XXtwindad]

This is a sad read. You need to come and ride in Marin where most people dont care what you ride or drive. Just be polite and inclusive would be my advice. Seems like you guys are fighting everyone on the road (cars and ebikes) that arent your bros.

MCBC and most folks I know here are happy more people are on the bikes regardless of the bike and that our local bike shops have found another revenue stream.

I have had plenty of conversations with guys on ebikes which usually begin with a "good morning" or "how you liking that bike" or "is that the new Specialized FS ebike" and ends with a tip of the hat of mutual respect, "you are guys are doing all the work", "its doesnt matter as long as you are outside".

Just be inclusive.

There was nothing impolite about my post. In no way was I insulting or derogatory. I was merely contemplating how the definition of "cyclist" was shifting. But you often fail to fully inculcate things ...

[bicycletricycle]

I know a few skateboarders, they do not like the electric skateboarders.



Went out for a little ride today with a few buddies. Cresting a local gnarly hill (11% continual grade) when we got passed by an ebiker. We were grinding up the hill and he passed us like he wasn't even trying. He wasn't rude, he was just having a completely different experience than the rest of us.

Shortly thereafter, a car came too close to comfort to both myself and my buddies. At the crest of the hill, the ebiker (who was looking on his phone) commented on the car, which I guess had buzzed him as well.

"They don't know how we feel about them," he said.

No one really knew how to answer that. It caught me off guard. We all kind of nodded and grunted in assent. It was a tad awkward. The ebiker said something briefly and rode off.

I have nothing against ebikes. (although the fact that Ed Begley Jr is now a big advocate means they're ripe for parody). But I do wonder how they will expand - or limit - the definition of "cyclist" and all that it entails.

The ebiker was clearly on two wheels. And yet he hadn't worked nearly as hard as we did to crest that hill. Was the word "we" warranted?

I frankly have no idea. But it seems to me that this issue will become more and more prominent.

[joosttx]

There was nothing impolite about my post. In no way was I insulting or derogatory. I was merely contemplating how the definition of "cyclist" was shifting. But you often fail to fully inculcate things ...

ebikers are us. IMO. That is what I am trying to inculcate err more correctly be inclusive.

[CMiller]

The ebiker was clearly on two wheels. And yet he hadn't worked nearly as hard as we did to crest that hill. Was the word "we" warranted?


I don't think the difficulty of riding up the hill should merit the inclusion. If it's that then the people doing it on a hybrid deserve more credit versus peeps on expensive road bikes. And someone 50 pounds overweight deserves more credit than the athletic group ride. Someone on commuter tires is working harder too, so is someone not on Dura Ace or Record I guess. 2 wheels, crappy cars, it's a "we." I am very cool with e-bikes just not for me yet.

[XXtwindad]

I don't think the difficulty of riding up the hill should merit the inclusion. If it's that then the people doing it on a hybrid deserve more credit versus peeps on expensive road bikes. And someone 50 pounds overweight deserves more credit than the athletic group ride. Someone on commuter tires is working harder too, so is someone not on Dura Ace or Record I guess. 2 wheels, crappy cars, it's a "we." I am very cool with e-bikes just not for me yet.

This is a very intelligent critique. That's a very legitimate point. Part of why I was caught off guard is that I rarely see ebikes on the hills I ride. Perhaps that will be much more commonplace in the future.

[XXtwindad]

ebikers are us. IMO. That is what I am trying to inculcate err more correctly be inclusive.

You'll need to translate this.

[joosttx]

You'll need to translate this.

I notice you used them SAT words incorrectly in a couple of your posts. I was just trying to be more exact and true to the definition of "inculcate". You know, "I am trying to inculcate inclusiveness" is more true to its definition than "I am trying to inculcate ebikers are us." Probably just splitting hairs here. But what do I know, no one has ever called me a wordsmith.

My point is be nice to people on the road. Even more importantly be empathetic. The dude is probably feeling a little insecure he is on an ebike and I assume you and your bros are all kitted out. He's probably judging you (and any person). Being friendly and opening with a positive statement is likely to break that stereotyping judgment we can all naturally have about people. Being blind to everything other than a person is human is a great way to start inclusive behavior.

[rinconryder]

Bottom line: I don’t know how old you are but I guarantee if you love cycling one day you will be on an e-bike whether it is to keep up with your kids or make that climb that you love and now no longer can make. Until then try to avoid riding two wide.

[XXtwindad]

I notice you used them SAT words incorrectly in a couple of your posts. I was just trying to be more exact and true to the definition of "inculcate". You know, "I am trying to inculcate inclusiveness" is more true to its definition than "I am trying to inculcate ebikers are us." Probably just splitting hairs here. But what do I know, no one has ever called me a wordsmith.

My point is be nice to people on the road. Even more importantly be empathetic. The dude is probably feeling a little insure that he is on an ebike and I assume you and your bros are all kitted out. He's probably judging you (and any person). Being friendly and opening with a positive statement is likely to break that stereotyping judgment we can all naturally have about people. Be aware blind to everything other than a person is human is a great way to start inclusive behavior.

No, "my bros" were not all kitted out, and FWIW there was a women cycling with us too. Just another example of your leap to judgement. Again: READ THE POST. Empathy lessons from a guy who recently railed against "fat" cyclists. Rich.

I'll just send you a Cliffs Notes version of my posts beforehand. That should solve a lot of things.

[joosttx]

No, "my bros" were not all kitted out, and FWIW there was a women cycling with us too. Just another example of your leap to judgement. Again: READ THE POST. Empathy lessons from a guy who recently railed against "fat" cyclists. Rich.

I'll just send you a Cliffs Notes version of my posts beforehand. That should solve a lot of things.

Sorry, I assume you guys were in kits. I should of used cycling "buddies" instead of "bros" too. I am sorry I assumed that you guys were in kits and used a masculine descriptor.

[Elefantino]

I mean, “we” climbing a hill? No. We getting buzzed by a car? Ok. I can see the we here as “we vulnerable forms of traffic”.



Climbing a hill, a "we" to that, too.

[Hawker]

This is true. I've never ridden an ebike. I'm also completely unaccustomed to seeing them on my daily rides. There is nothing derogatory about the cyclist in my post. Af far my wondering about the "we" part of it, I think it's a perfectly valid conversation to have.

I agree with you. ebikes are new to most of us and many of us have still never even seen one in the flesh, let along ridden alongside one. I think you've gotten some good response here and given us all an opportunity to really decide what we think of them and how to view them. Personally, I think if I were riding one and tried to join a group of organized riders where I was the ONLY one on an ebike...I'd feel a bit like an interloper. But that's just ME.

[vav]

"eBiker uses the word "we" among a group of cyclists. Awkward silence ensues..."

Man, here I am looking at this straight from "The Onion" title thread and thinking this was going to be a gender/binary/pronoun discussion :cool:

[peanutgallery]

I've been kinda considering an ebike for an mtb, because motorcycle dirt access is basically nonexistent in my area and I like the speed and distance factors

If you haven't had the opportunity to ride one in the woods, give it a try. It's so much fun it should be illegal

[oldpotatoe]

Was he on two wheels? Was he passed too close by a car? Of course "we" was warranted.

Big, it depends. There are at least 2 here in the republic, who ride electric scooters, yup, they have 'pedals' where they put their feet, and actually 'pedal' for a few feet, then stop pedaling and accelerate up to about 20-23 mph, on bike lane. They aren't 'bicycles', but scooters and should stay outta the bike lane...the last one I saw also ran a red light...big sigh.

[gemship]

I've been kinda considering an ebike for an mtb, because motorcycle dirt access is basically nonexistent in my area and I like the speed and distance factors

If you haven't had the opportunity to ride one in the woods, give it a try. It's so much fun it should be illegal

I considered it too but instead I got a more conventional full suspension mtb. I'm still excited by them though. I was mostly looking at the offerings of Specialized as they seem to have the best looking,designed realistic integration of an electric motor into a bicycle. I did consider Giant's as well but this is where I hit a wall. The Giant dealer said he doesn't want to sell them because he foreseen warranty/service issues as a nightmare. Also he went into a lengthy chat describing our local single track riding conditions as well as stating the obvious. That ebikes are a good 20 pounds heavier. That extra weight maybe hidden going uphill but going down hill or bunnyhops, jumps it's more evident. Also the local Spesh dealer has one on their showroom floor, pretty bike but it cost like 8k. I dunno what to say except I grew up loving to ride dirtbikes and I could get a decent used one for at least half that price and trailor it to a proper venue to ride it. Still have money left over for a decent new mtb. which I already have:p

[gemship]

Big, it depends. There are at least 2 here in the republic, who ride electric scooters, yup, they have 'pedals' where they put their feet, and actually 'pedal' for a few feet, then stop pedaling and accelerate up to about 20-23 mph, on bike lane. They aren't 'bicycles', but scooters and should stay outta the bike lane...the last one I saw also ran a red light...big sigh.

I see what your saying but I dunno because from a car drivers POV if you on a scooter all maxed out for speed and the car can overtake you then by law at least here in MA. the scooter has to yield the right of way to the car. Of course that may mean if there is a bike lane that the scooter is obliged to take it for the car to safely pass.

[oldpotatoe]

I see what your saying but I dunno because from a car drivers POV if you on a scooter all maxed out for speed and the car can overtake you then by law at least here in MA. the scooter has to yield the right of way to the car. Of course that may mean if there is a bike lane that the scooter is obliged to take it for the car to safely pass.

Here, 'motorized vehicles' are not allowed in the bike lane. An electric assist bike isn't a 'motorized vehicle'...if that 49cc scooter or electric scooter can't be in a lane of traffic at the speed of cars, not allowed to be there but certainly not in bike lane or on MUP...Multi Use Path...but, they are here...Too bad when ya trundle into the 'ebike' store, they hype and sell electric scooters along with e assist bikes. That's a loophole that may or may not get closed.

[gemship]

Here, 'motorized vehicles' are not allowed in the bike lane. An electric assist bike isn't a 'motorized vehicle'...if that 49cc scooter or electric scooter can't be in a lane of traffic at the speed of cars, not allowed to be there but certainly not in bike lane or on MUP...Multi Use Path...but, they are here...Too bad when ya trundle into the 'ebike' store, they hype and sell electric scooters along with e assist bikes. That's a loophole that may or may not get closed.

Well it's not like they're allowed here either but the thing is when they paint bike lanes around my city at least they basically reconfigure the existing space of the roads to do it. Basically all the bike lanes are is lines with a bicyclist stick figure painted in them to show that there is this projected space for a cyclist to use aside from the road space for the cars. It's goofy because it's not like the road grew any bigger but we have more lanes now, this is just in the city limits anyways, where they can do it. It's a bit of a new thing over the past decade or so.

I think in a scenario where if the scooter is in a bike lane to let a car overtake but runs the risk of rear ending a cyclist then naturally the scooter slows down to avoid that or if it's safe to do so the scooter simply takes the car lane to pass the biker and then yields right of way to the car. It's all just road etiquette which should lead to good sense and safety in my view no matter the laws. However cars as you know are bigger and trump two wheels motorized or not if your two wheels don't have the steam to keep up then it's best to simply go to the side of the road and let the bigger faster car pass.

[jamesdak]

Not sure what kind of e-bike you are talking about but when talking about the pedal assist variety you are dead wrong to think you are different or somehow better than someone on an e-bike. I use an e-bike to commute to work most days because I have to get to work as quickly as possible to be on time. I work just as hard as I do as if I were on a standard bike but instead of going 20-21 I am able to hit 28. And yes the 15 minutes I save does matter. I get a good work out in, I am one less car and I am the same cyclist facing the same risks and getting the same exercise as I do on a regular bike.

I think it’s safe to assume you have never even ridden an e-bike or you would have never made this post.

Hmmmm.... I've had a chance to play on a friends E-mountain bike. On it as I ease off my physical effort the bike actually increases speed. It's a weird sensation from my limited experience on that it's not match what you are saying. Just thought I'd chime in with my POV. :)

[hokoman]

Hmmmm.... I've had a chance to play on a friends E-mountain bike. On it as I ease off my physical effort the bike actually increases speed. It's a weird sensation from my limited experience on that it's not match what you are saying. Just thought I'd chime in with my POV. :)

That's because you're at 20mph or whatever the cutoff is. You're actually not going faster, it just feels that way. It happens when I'm on my Xtracycle. I will have my kids on the back and I'll be pedaling my @ss off and I'll look down and see that the pedal assist is off since I'm over 20 mph (slight downhill), and as soon as I ease off, the pedal assist will kick on and it'll be just under 20 mph, but it feels like I'm going much faster.

[XXtwindad]

Bottom line: I don’t know how old you are but I guarantee if you love cycling one day you will be on an e-bike whether it is to keep up with your kids or make that climb that you love and now no longer can make. Until then try to avoid riding two wide.

You might be right. I hope that day doesn't come for a very long, long time. Because something will have been lost for me. Not just the physical capabilities, but the mental release that comes through physical exertion. The sheer joy of movement.

Another poster mentioned that we might be at a "tipping point" with ebikes. I think that's probably true. Maybe ten years from now, the "photos from your rides" thread will be fifty percent ebikes. Or more.* Is that a good thing? Bad thing? Progress?

The ebiker I saw on one of my rides was probably a harbinger of things to come. It might be the new norm. I'm only familiar with them from the streets of San Francisco (similar to pdmtong) where they can be a real menace.

My partner is Israeli, and she said that country has enacted a whole raft of legislation because of the high rate of accidents involving ebikers (and scooters):

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3746973,00.html

That legislation will probably be coming here soon, if it hasn't happened already.

*in the event that ebikes make all of our steeds antiquated and borderline useless, dibs on Clean39s "old school manually operated" Ti/Carbon Firefly :)

[mj_michigan]

For me, Class 2 e-bike (electric assist up to 20mph) is a bike, no question. I rode a high end one, and all you feel is going faster (up to the limit) for any pedaling effort. Class 3 (assist up to 28mph), seems to fall between a bike and a moped. Those beyond class 3 I would not consider bicycles.

[FlashUNC]

Car tries to kill cyclists.

Cyclists spend time arguing what class of ebike one of cyclists used to determine which of the group were actual cyclists said car tried to kill.

We eat our own.

[XXtwindad]

Car tries to kill cyclists.

Cyclists spend time arguing what class of ebike one of cyclists used to determine which of the group were actual cyclists said car tried to kill.

We eat our own.

There was nothing in my post about a car trying to kill us. I wasn't privy to the driver's mindset. I merely wondered where a bike capable of going 30-35 MPH fit in to any preconceived notion of a "cycling tribe." I still don't know the answer. It may evolve over time.

[mt2u77]

If we get to exclude e-bikers from “we” on 11% climbs, I’d like to officially stake my ground and exclude anyone less than 175 lbs on a mechanical bike too. 120 lbs. flyweights do NOT get to celebrate the summit— not legit. [emoji6]

[PacNW2Ford]

When will “othering” become a professional sport?

[Drmojo]

seen on T-shirt a while ago:

EVERYONE

( not an SAT word )

[jtbadge]

More elitism and gatekeeping?

Shocked!

[Drmojo]

Tribalism

[Mzilliox]

what is this incredible need for humans to be in a group, and one that needs to exclude others? can we not evolve more?

im "me", add anymore and its a "we".

[FlashUNC]

Shortly thereafter, a car came too close to comfort to both myself and my buddies. At the crest of the hill, the ebiker (who was looking on his phone) commented on the car, which I guess had buzzed him as well.



There was nothing in my post about a car trying to kill us. I wasn't privy to the driver's mindset. I merely wondered where a bike capable of going 30-35 MPH fit in to any preconceived notion of a "cycling tribe." I still don't know the answer. It may evolve over time.

Wut?

This whole thread is like a trip through Crazytown.

[jamesdak]

That's because you're at 20mph or whatever the cutoff is. You're actually not going faster, it just feels that way. It happens when I'm on my Xtracycle. I will have my kids on the back and I'll be pedaling my @ss off and I'll look down and see that the pedal assist is off since I'm over 20 mph (slight downhill), and as soon as I ease off, the pedal assist will kick on and it'll be just under 20 mph, but it feels like I'm going much faster.

Maybe, I'd be curious to see some power numbers or other ways to measure exertion for someone on an E-bike vs a ..dare I say it...real bike. ;)

Not that I really have a dog in this fight cause I don't care. I am curious though. We do all these things to make our life "easier" but what does it do for our fitness? Are we, as a society, already on a decline physically? But we I mean Americans. We see all the time about how our obesity "population" is growing. Do things like E-bikes help battle that or help encourage it in reality? I know I could argue it either way but I wonder what the impact from E-bikes will truly be on this in years to come? Food for thought....

[DRZRM]

My ride buddy and I had a guy on a high end e-mountain bike who was visiting Central PA ask if he could join us out on the trails a few weeks back. We had a nice 8-10 miles on a moderately technical ride together, mostly climbing. When we turned back we sent him out on an additional 15-20 loop. We talked about why he likes the bike, to see more of an area he is riding, and to help climb so he can get more downhill runs. He seemed on the way to a 40 mile day, I rarely get in more than 20 on a MTB these days. He offered to let us ride it, but I declined.

I have no problem with them, seems like a fun way to spend a day, and if I were riding with younger and faster friends who I was holding back on climbs, it could let you keep up and do more laps/trails without anyone having to wait for you. Maybe if the prices come way down it would be a fun option, but I'd always keep my traditional MTBs.

[joosttx]

Wut?

This whole thread is like a trip through Crazytown.

Oakland ain’t that crazy :)

[unterhausen]

anyone that rides an ebike for recreation likes riding more than I do, because I wouldn't do it.

[Blue Jays]

I haven’t yet ridden an E-bicycle. I feel they are a terrific idea and I wholeheartedly support their continued development.
If I successfully keep my marbles as I age, the technology will hopefully assist me to still pedal to areas that I know and love.

[Hawker]

If we get to exclude e-bikers from “we” on 11% climbs, I’d like to officially stake my ground and exclude anyone less than 175 lbs on a mechanical bike too. 120 lbs. flyweights do NOT get to celebrate the summit— not legit. [emoji6]

Always been a very average athlete but at 132lbs (before my heart attack) I used to pass more than a few big guys on climbs. Can't tell you how great it made me feel. Until we went down the other side. :)

[HenryA]

https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record

[joosttx]

I seriously lust after this bike.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48604305307_83023f5749_z.jpg

[XXtwindad]

Wut?

This whole thread is like a trip through Crazytown.

Once again, no idea of what the drivers intent was. I'm assuming if he/she/they actually wanted to harm/kill us, they would've. But don't let facts get in the way of some overheated hyperbole.

I also think it's OK to wonder at this particular moment in time, what actually constitutes a "bike." If it's capable of going 35 MPH, I really don't know the answer.

Feel free and make me the bogeyman, though. That's a lot of fun :)

[XXtwindad]

https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record

That's hysterical! Wait for the pitchforks ....

[FlashUNC]

Once again, no idea of what the drivers intent was. I'm assuming if he/she/they actually wanted to harm/kill us, they would've. But don't let facts get in the way of some overheated hyperbole.

I also think it's OK to wonder at this particular moment in time, what actually constitutes a "bike." If it's capable of going 35 MPH, I really don't know the answer.

Feel free and make me the bogeyman, though. That's a lot of fun :)

Just an odd flex when a dude on an ebike tries to commiserate about an unsafe driver and the immediate reaction is "But are you a cyclist tho?"

That's a commitment to subcultural tribalism that I commend for it's depth and fear for any reasonable effort to keep more of us safe.

I'll fight the ebike fight another day. But if ebike riders want to be lumped in as cyclists and commiserate on a common cause -- unsafe drivers -- there's always more room under the rhetorical umbrella.

Not bogeymannning at all. Just very weird that's the immediate reaction.

[Drmojo]

Oakland ain’t that crazy :)

it is the Least Bay
( what we SF snobs called it
1986-1998 City resident

[Burnette]

I still say it's a first world intellectual exercise of a nothing burger of an incident. It's not even an incident. The car was an issue and an incident.

And the ebike rider wasn't even asking to join. I bet it would be hilarious to get his take on the question of whether or not he belongs to a group he spoke to about a car that buzzed him and said group. Does he even care? Better yet, why did the group care? That's a fragile psyche if that's all it took to silence the crowd.

"Did he just say we, as in he's one of us? Oh no he didn't!"

Had the guy said that to me I would be all like, " yeah, people, what can you do, amirite?"

If you want a private party you shouldn't party in public.

[tctyres]

Wut?

This whole thread is like a trip through Crazytown.

Oakland ain’t that crazy :)

Having lived in the East Bay and New York, I can verify that New York on one of its crazy days is far crazier than Oakland.

The delivery guys here all use the e'bikes.
One night, I had a couple beers and then rode home through Central Park in my sneakers on my gravel bike. An ebiker delivery guy whizzed by me, but I caught his wheel and drafted. He looked back at me like I was nuts. I went on for, I dunno, 5-10 blocks. I dropped him on the false flat and continued on.

[Blue Jays]

"...I still say it's a first world intellectual exercise of a nothing burger of an incident.
It's not even an incident. The car was an issue and an incident.

And the ebike rider wasn't even asking to join. I bet it would be hilarious to get his take on the question of whether or not he belongs to a group he spoke to about a car that buzzed him and said group. Does he even care? Better yet, why did the group care? That's a fragile psyche if that's all it took to silence the crowd.

"Did he just say we, as in he's one of us? Oh no he didn't!"
Had the guy said that to me I would be all like, " yeah, people, what can you do, amirite?"

If you want a private party you shouldn't party in public..."
Exactly. Precisely captures the sentiments of many. Good post, Burnette.
Folks getting even vaguely crabby about ebikes should agree to revisit this thread in 2039 to review. :-)

[jamesdak]

https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record

:hello::hello::hello:

[jamesdak]

Well I will freely admit that if I'm puking a lung going up Powder Mt (local HC climb) and an E-biker cruises by I'd have no issue. Now if I get up top and the e-biker is there and says how hard the climb is....I'm liable to punch him...

Just kidding....maybe.... :p

[benb]

Just an odd flex when a dude on an ebike tries to commiserate about an unsafe driver and the immediate reaction is "But are you a cyclist tho?"



Perfect way to describe it.

It should make no difference in this conversation if you replace the eBiker with a guy on a full size motorcycle.

You're all riders of 2-wheeled vehicles who are vulnerable to getting creamed by a rude/incompetent car driver.

Of course I say that.. and I am 100% sure there's been a case where a car buzzes a guy on a Harley Davidson and a guy on a Japanese bike.. then the 2 motorcyclists end up stopped near each other. The rider on the Japanese motorcycle riding guy said, "Boy that jerk almost killed us!" and the H-D guy sneered and said "What do you mean us! You're nothing like me, you don't ride a real bike, you're no biker!". Substitute other brands/countries of origin of motorcycles as necessary.

Seems people love to make a pecking order and put themselves into buckets based on the type of bike they have...

Same kind of "bucketing" goes on for:

- MTB guys vs roadies
- Riders with custom frames vs riders with "mass produced frames".
- Riders with European frames vs american frames
- Riders with Asian Manufactured frames vs NA/European manufactured frames
- Singlespeed vs fixed vs multi-gear riders

Clearly the guy topping this hill on a single speed fixie is better than those on multi-geared bikes who are better than eBikers? :banana:

[rinconryder]

Maybe, I'd be curious to see some power numbers or other ways to measure exertion for someone on an E-bike vs a ..dare I say it...real bike. ;)

Not that I really have a dog in this fight cause I don't care. I am curious though. We do all these things to make our life "easier" but what does it do for our fitness? Are we, as a society, already on a decline physically?

Based on my own experiences I would venture to say that for any type of endurance riding the numbers are pretty close, at least from my physical perception. Since the assist cuts out at 28MPH, you really don't want to hammer anything harder at that point as the bike is so heavy it really hurts.

If I didn't use the e-bike as a commuter tool I probably wouldn't own one at this time. I am 42 and can still ride a regular bike with competence but it has been a game changer for me as a commuter with time constraints.

[Skenry]

I built the computer here on my desk up from parts, mastered the art of soldering in the process. I can't believe people like the OP use a computer they bought at the store. He barely deserves to check his email.

Thank God I don't ride with him and his people.

[jamesdak]

The world is full of so many self-righteous people and a lot are on this thread. Myself including. How many ragging on the OP have no faults....you know...other than me?

Love the internet! :banana:

[jamesdak]

Based on my own experiences I would venture to say that for any type of endurance riding the numbers are pretty close, at least from my physical perception. Since the assist cuts out at 28MPH, you really don't want to hammer anything harder at that point as the bike is so heavy it really hurts.

If I didn't use the e-bike as a commuter tool I probably wouldn't own one at this time. I am 42 and can still ride a regular bike with competence but it has been a game changer for me as a commuter with time constraints.

I get that. I used a bike all over Germany years ago because a lot of times with their great path system I could get there quicker on the bike. And not have to worry about finding parking. Something like an E-bike would open up even more options I guess. :)

[Frankwurst]

If you are outside getting some exercise and enjoying yourself I don't care how you're getting it done. You get a thumbs up from me. I'm slow, use pedals with toe clips and straps and don't own a kit. I ride bicycles. Call me a turd on two wheels if that's how you see me. I'm having a good time and Kudos to those that are doing the same. Rock hard and ride free. :beer:

[Blue Jays]

"...Rock hard and ride free..." :beer:
That's what I like to say, too! :hello:

[Dekonick]

Today I was walking with my wife around our local lake with our leashed dog. It has a nice path and is a 1.6 mile loop. We try to do 3 laps together several times a week, just because the dog loves it, and we get quality time to talk without the kids. The county has e-bikes you can rent and today on our walk this older gentleman was doing laps on one of those rental bikes. I don't know if they are pedal assist but he sure seemed to be getting a workout... I see others zipping around on the same bikes not pedaling at all.

Hey, he was out riding... using the MUT paths. That is a good thing.
If someone is riding an e-bike getting out when they otherwise wouldn't I am all for it. We won't be young forever - but ride as long as you can... fight loss of mobility as hard as you can. Keep it fun as long as possible. If that means going from a 3 speed Sturmy Archer to 5 speed friction to 6,7,8,9,10 or more indexed... or e-shifting... do it... and if adding a little electric assist boosts the fun - go for it.

[fa63]

I get that. I used a bike all over Germany years ago because a lot of times with their great path system I could get there quicker on the bike. And not have to worry about finding parking. Something like an E-bike would open up even more options I guess. :)

By the time I include parking my car and walking over to my building, the e-bike is pretty much always faster for me. Also, parking my car costs an arm and a leg, but bike parking is free :-)

[XXtwindad]

The world is full of so many self-righteous people and a lot are on this thread. Myself including. How many ragging on the OP have no faults....you know...other than me?

Love the internet! :banana:

Well, if I don't like the heat, I shouldn't be in the kitchen. :)

Always happy to have company in the "arena," though. Thanks for that. You mentioned a key point earlier about physical conditioning, and lack of movement. Obviously, as ebikes become more prevalent, that might be a concern. I don't know what the repercussions will be. Environmentally, I have to think that ebikes will be a huge benefit. That alone puts me in their camp.

As far what constitutes a "cyclist," there were several interesting opinions here. I imagine that there will be more and more laws regulating ebikes. That might clarify definitions.

[XXtwindad]

I don't think the difficulty of riding up the hill should merit the inclusion. If it's that then the people doing it on a hybrid deserve more credit versus peeps on expensive road bikes. And someone 50 pounds overweight deserves more credit than the athletic group ride. Someone on commuter tires is working harder too, so is someone not on Dura Ace or Record I guess. 2 wheels, crappy cars, it's a "we." I am very cool with e-bikes just not for me yet.

This critique really resonated with me. As someone who rails against strava occasionally, does the ability to go up a steep hill (fast or otherwise) warrant the mantle of "cyclist?" Well put. Life makes hypocrites of us all. And you very succinctly summed up some of mine.

And kudos to Skenry for building his own computer! :)

[CMiller]

Thank you for keeping an open mind! I think we’ll be seeing a bunch more e-bikes sooner than we think, I’m excited to see more people enjoying the outdoors. Except for people on rim brake road bikes, they are insane... ;)

[joosttx]

I feel compiled to up my ebike purchase timetable for some reason.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48604305307_83023f5749_z.jpg

Looking forward to all the cyclist's dirty looks as I roll past with a beer in my hand and a 10 year boy on the back yelling "faster Dad, Faste!!"

[rinconryder]

I’ve been waiting for this debate. It’s a good one.

[FlashUNC]

I feel compiled to up my ebike purchase timetable for some reason.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48604305307_83023f5749_z.jpg

Looking forward to all the cyclist's dirty looks as I roll past with a beer in my hand and a 10 year boy on the back yelling "faster Dad, Faste!!"

Go with the cargo bike version and load the kids in like WWII paratroopers on jump seats in the rear. Way cooler. Also can sit like a half dozen of 'em.

[tkbike]

This critique really resonated with me. As someone who rails against strava occasionally, does the ability to go up a steep hill (fast or otherwise) warrant the mantle of "cyclist?" Well put. Life makes hypocrites of us all. And you very succinctly summed up some of mine.

And kudos to Skenry for building his own computer! :)

Hypocrite - only the weak take the easy way out...NOT ALL OF US

[rowebr]

If you are outside getting some exercise and enjoying yourself I don't care how you're getting it done. You get a thumbs up from me. I'm slow, use pedals with toe clips and straps and don't own a kit. I ride bicycles. Call me a turd on two wheels if that's how you see me. I'm having a good time and Kudos to those that are doing the same. Rock hard and ride free. :beer:

Yes! Thank you for saying this.

[joosttx]

Go with the cargo bike version and load the kids in like WWII paratroopers on jump seats in the rear. Way cooler. Also can sit like a half dozen of 'em.

I feel the kids are getting too big for the cargo. This one will also work with my bros and wife. Basically, I view as a party bike. Friends come to visit. Who wants to shred Tam? The answer is always yes.

[benb]

I still want an eBike for commuting. Perfect solution for me. Street clothes, flat pedals, sit up and beg riding position that is fine with a backpack.

My commute is 4 miles. Just enough hill to worry about sweating, but not enough hills or distance to really get a quality workout. If I ride fast I get ~25-30 minutes of relatively low quality riding round trip but I waste time changing into/out of bike clothes and walking across the office park to get to/from the showers in the gym. It's so inefficient of a way to go that I can't stay motivated to do it.

I just don't want to pay for an eBike.. they're freakin expensive. But it would get me to leave my car at home a lot, and the eBike would absolutely be faster than the car as long as you can ride it up the shoulder past the traffic jams just like a regular bike.

[XXtwindad]

Hypocrite - only the weak take the easy way out...NOT ALL OF US

You've been watching too many reruns of "Gladiator."

[redir]

Didn't read all the responses but my guess is that the OP got trashed because he's stating his opinion on eBikes.

I agree. eBikes are by the very definition motorcycles. In fact what we traditionally call motor cycles should really be called enginecycles but I digress.

I've ridden these new motorcycles and they are fun AF. I could even see owning one. But they don't belong on the mountain biking trails or on MUT's either. They are freakin motorcycles. They can go where the other enginecycles go, that's where they belong.

Flame away...

[Burnette]

Didn't read all the responses but my guess is that the OP got trashed because he's stating his opinion on eBikes.

I agree. eBikes are by the very definition motorcycles. In fact what we traditionally call motor cycles should really be called enginecycles but I digress.

I've ridden these new motorcycles and they are fun AF. I could even see owning one. But they don't belong on the mountain biking trails or on MUT's either. They are freakin motorcycles. They can go where the other enginecycles go, that's where they belong.

Flame away...

I wish you had read the thread because this wasn't just about ebikes, it was also the OP's reaction to an ebike rider using "we" to describe what happened when he and the group the OP was riding with got buzzed by a car.

But if you want to give your opinion on ebike, flame away.

[XXtwindad]

Didn't read all the responses but my guess is that the OP got trashed because he's stating his opinion on eBikes.

I agree. eBikes are by the very definition motorcycles. In fact what we traditionally call motor cycles should really be called enginecycles but I digress.

I've ridden these new motorcycles and they are fun AF. I could even see owning one. But they don't belong on the mountain biking trails or on MUT's either. They are freakin motorcycles. They can go where the other enginecycles go, that's where they belong.

Flame away...

I think this makes sense, obviously. But beyond my opinion (or anyone else's) ebikes are relatively new. There hasn't been time to evaluate them. My best guess is that they will eventually be legally classified as something "other" than mechanical transport.

[XXtwindad]

I wish you had read the thread because this wasn't just about ebikes, it was also the OP's reaction to an ebike rider using "we" to describe what happened when he and the group the OP was riding with got buzzed by a car.

But if you want to give your opinion on ebike, flame away.

Yes and no. I think many people reacted to the shared vulnerability of being buzzed by a car. In other words, the car defined who a "cyclist" was.

But what if (as has happened many times in SF as a pedestrian) I had been buzzed by an ebike going 25 MPH or so? Is the definition of "cyclist" still the same?

I'm curious.

[unterhausen]

It's not like all cyclists are great around pedestrians. I once rode on the same ride with a guy that buzzed every pedestrian that was doing something he thought was wrong. Examples I saw were people walking on the right side of a road and people that were in the bike lane of the Hudson river pedestrian bridge (did I mention it's the Hudson river PEDESTRIAN bridge?). I never heard from again until he died in a motorcycle crash. A lot of people loved him. I guess this was just a blind spot with him.

I do worry about ebikers getting all cyclists in trouble, because a lot of them are uncultured. But I was walking on campus and got passed by an ebiker that passed me at an appropriate speed. After he was past, he let it rip.

[sonicCows]

Ok roadie

[Elefantino]

Ok roadie

:hello:

[Totalinsanity]

The E Biker could easily get run over by a car, just like pedestrians, cyclists and other road users. The ebikers comments seem to reflect that vulnerability.
Cyclists have a tenancy of being exclusive opposed to inclusive. This is possibly my least favorite part of the cycling culture. It occurs within the sport as well for instance the mountain and road bike world are relatively exclusive and segregated.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Dead Man]

7 pages of flame.. seems like the op's taken more that his fair share, dont it?

[redir]

I think this makes sense, obviously. But beyond my opinion (or anyone else's) ebikes are relatively new. There hasn't been time to evaluate them. My best guess is that they will eventually be legally classified as something "other" than mechanical transport.

They are wonderful for people with disabilities and I fully support that.

[FlashUNC]

They are wonderful for people with disabilities and I fully support that.

Which is commendable, but the industry also spends entirely too much time catering to an existing, aging and fattening MAMIL customer base and entirely too little time thinking about how to attract a wider audience.

I'm not convinced ebikes are doing more of the latter rather than the former.

[Burnette]

Yes and no. I think many people reacted to the shared vulnerability of being buzzed by a car. In other words, the car defined who a "cyclist" was.

But what if (as has happened many times in SF as a pedestrian) I had been buzzed by an ebike going 25 MPH or so? Is the definition of "cyclist" still the same?

I'm curious.

You both got buzzed by a car. He didn't do anything wrong. He didn't ask to join your "tribe" and he didn't buzz you going 25 mph either.

Using this experience to draw a distinction of what constitutes a cyclist was a poor one. Nothing he did infringed upon or harmed your group. Other than maybe your pride as if you seem to feel as if he doesn't belong in your "tribe" and shouldn't have included himself by using "we".

Again, I bet the guy would laugh his butt off if he knew strangers were having this much angst about him identifying with others who git buzzed by the same car he did. And I truly wonder if he would even care if he met such a group's definition of anything. I wouldn't.

[Seramount]

Was the word "we" warranted?

you shared a mutual experience, therefore 'we' is applicable.

[XXtwindad]

You both got buzzed by a car. He didn't do anything wrong. He didn't ask to join your "tribe" and he didn't buzz you going 25 mph either.

Using this experience to draw a distinction of what constitutes a cyclist was a poor one. Nothing he did infringed upon or harmed your group. Other than maybe your pride as if you seem to feel as if he doesn't belong in your "tribe" and shouldn't have included himself by using "we".

Again, I bet the guy would laugh his butt off if he knew strangers were having this much angst about him identifying with others who git buzzed by the same car he did. And I truly wonder if he would even care if he met such a group's definition of anything. I wouldn't.

This saddens me. We've always had a good rapport in the past. I've scoured the Paceline Agreement section, but I've come up empty. So, two possible solutions:

1) A beer summit. I like IPAs. Pliny the Elder (which is pretty local) in particular. I'll spring for them. We'll invite the eBiker, the car driver (that might be difficult) and anyone who has contributed to this thread.

2) A "Zoolander" style Walk-Off. I'm not as enamored of this idea, because I've been experiencing some plantar fasciitis lately, so that might give you an advantage ...

[Burnette]

This saddens me. We've always had a good rapport in the past. I've scoured the Paceline Agreement section, but I've come up empty. So, two possible solutions:

1) A beer summit. I like IPAs. Pliny the Elder (which is pretty local) in particular. I'll spring for them. We'll invite the eBiker, the car driver (that might be difficult) and anyone who has contributed to this thread.

2) A "Zoolander" style Walk-Off. I'm not as enamored of this idea, because I've been experiencing some plantar fasciitis lately, so that might give you an advantage ...

Simply put, I think your intent of ebike discussion was way overshadowed by your internal questioning of whether or not someone belonged.

On that note, you say your group wasn't kitted up. What if a cycling group that was kitted up and hammering like hell was behind your group and a car buzzes your group and thier's, and as they pass your group you say, "they don't know how we feel about them".

If one guy from the fast hammering group posted on Paceline how an awkward silence ensued after you said "we" it would garner the same reaction.

Look at it this way, cars, motorcycles trucks and bicycles and ebikes are fine, it's people that bring negative behavior to them. So there's nothing wrong with the devices, it's the operators of them. And cyclist of the human powered "tribe" are no different.

Anybody who has ridden with or around enough cycling groups know they can do some really crappy things.

As an example, I use to do quite a few charity rides and rode with the hammer heads. More than once on such rides did I see some of them blasting 25 mph or better close to groups going much slower. Weaving in and out of groups ahead.

So the "tribes" of cyclist vary and some are crappy people. The bicycle didn't make them crappy though, they brought that to the ride.

So we can complain about ebikes and cars but don't leave out the rest of what you consider "cyclist". People who are inclined to do bad things will do it no matter the conveyance.

I would say that it's odd that you questioned whether the ebike rider was one of you. He was. He witnessed a wrong and called it out.

The driver of the car wasn't like your group and the ebike rider. The car driver was a prick and/or was distracted driving. That's what made the car driver different and not one of us, someone thoughtful enough to look out for another person.

Don't kick out the good people of the tribe or you'll be left with the worst.

And in no way do I think you're a bad person but we shouldn't be too quick to judge people on ebikes, especially when they haven't done anything wrong. Trust, there's plenty non cyclist car drivers that damn us for being out there, don't think we belong either, even when we haven't done anything wrong. And they're wrong for that too.

[Dead Man]

I'll spring for them. We'll invite the eBiker, the car driver (that might be difficult) and anyone who has contributed to this thread.

du sprichst meine language, bruder. when und where is all i need to know.

[XXtwindad]

du sprichst meine language, bruder. when und where is all i need to know.

Anytime you're layin your head in Berkeley/Oakland drop me a line. Biking and beers. I'll spring. Even if you got a motor attached to your bike. Especially if you have a motor attached. You'll get there a 1/2 hour before me and get the choicest seats with my favorite bartender ...

[joosttx]

not all ebikes are equal.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745672651_e30f2795f6_b.jpg

[p nut]

not all ebikes are equal.


Sorry. Gross.

[XXtwindad]

not all ebikes are equal.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745672651_e30f2795f6_b.jpg

True. And I think you (perhaps inadvertently) illustrated Flash's point above.

[Dead Man]

lookout boyz... im still a roadie on my road-e, right?

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/road-eplus-1-pro

[joosttx]

True. And I think you (perhaps inadvertently) illustrated Flash's point above.

I don't see how this touches the MAMIL. I doubt the Firefly team would see that either. But I am willing to listen to you expound on your initial ruminations.

[colker]

ebikes are scary on bike paths. I see it everyday. I don´t mind them going along w/me against cars but on mut paths it´s dangerous most of the time: too much speed.

[XXtwindad]

lookout boyz... im still a roadie on my road-e, right?

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/road-eplus-1-pro

This copywriting is ironic. "The Road-E+ Pro is the choice for performance-minded road riders looking to climb higher mountains and cover longer distances."

[tctyres]

https://youtu.be/cDa1Ns9hvho

[vincenz]

not all ebikes are equal.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48745672651_e30f2795f6_b.jpg


Nothing against Firefly at all, but some of their stuff is so hipster I just can’t get over it. I mean I get it, the customer pays the bills, but draw the line somewhere...

[joosttx]

Nothing against Firefly at all, but some of their stuff is so hipster I just can’t get over it. I mean I get it, the customer pays the bills, but draw the line somewhere...

I think it is beautiful and I had money to burn... why not. It is for sure over the top.

[Blue Jays]

Firefly titanium ebike with powerful electric assist would be a superb commuter.

[sonicCows]

Nothing against Firefly at all, but some of their stuff is so hipster I just can’t get over it. I mean I get it, the customer pays the bills, but draw the line somewhere...

I actually believe this was made by one of the Firefly owners to serve as an e-bike prototype, and I'm sure it's a great utility bike. Don't you think they have featured enough road/all-road bikes on their website?

[XXtwindad]

lookout boyz... im still a roadie on my road-e, right?

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/road-eplus-1-pro

I think this post is worth repeating. $4,500 for a brand new bike seems reasonable, right? Maybe a little too high. But that price will come down as technology improves. And if you're an "entry level" cyclist, why wouldn't you opt for this bike?

So, eventually, eBikes will be the new "norm." That's my best guess. And then what?

[jtbadge]

People who wander the world in spandex and clicky shoes, insisting on shunning every other person who rides two wheels, are so weird.

[XXtwindad]

People who wander the world in spandex and clicky shoes, insisting on shunning every other person who rides two wheels, are so weird.

Excellent point. Thanks JT. "Ebiking" will probably require a whole new wardrobe. Rapha has one in the works, I'm sure.

[jtbadge]

Excellent point. Thanks JT. "Ebiking" will probably require a whole new wardrobe. Rapha has one in the works, I'm sure.

No, the point is that the rest of the entire world looks down at roadies the way this forum looks at e-bikes or "hipsters"

[XXtwindad]

No, the point is that the rest of the entire world looks down at roadies the way this forum looks at e-bikes or "hipsters"

I've always been looking "up" at very ebiker I've encountered. :)

[AngryScientist]

i think it's an interesting conversation, and certainly a valid discussion for a cycling forum.

personally, my only exposure to e-bikes in the wild are the delivery people here in NYC. I have never actually seen an e-bike roadie out in the streets or on gravel rides.

ultimately, i do think there will have to be some distinction between pedal only bikes and e-bikes. i'm thinking about an event like D2R2; it's simply not the same level of accomplishment if you finish the grueling 180k on a standard pedal bicycle vs having some level of assist. even smaller gatherings of friends - will there be the same level of mutual suffering that brings us together and feeling of shared miles when some portion of the group gets an e-boost?

i dont know.

[AngryScientist]

No, the point is that the rest of the entire world looks down at roadies the way this forum looks at e-bikes or "hipsters"

please dont generalize like that. there have been many opinions and thoughts expressed in this thread alone. generalizing the way people on "this forum" think, is plainly wrong.

[colker]

No, the point is that the rest of the entire world looks down at roadies the way this forum looks at e-bikes or "hipsters"


HYperbole on steroids: the rest of the entire world? Road riding attire and discipline looks weird indeed to other humans but it´s traditional, century old. Ebikes are more like cellphones.

[vincenz]

I actually believe this was made by one of the Firefly owners to serve as an e-bike prototype, and I'm sure it's a great utility bike. Don't you think they have featured enough road/all-road bikes on their website?


I was going to say I hope that was made more as a tech demo or a one-off show bike, and not some production bike. If customers are actually commissioning things like this for daily commuters, as has been suggested, I think I’ve underestimated the zeitgeist Insta crowd..

[joosttx]

I actually believe this was made by one of the Firefly owners to serve as an e-bike prototype, and I'm sure it's a great utility bike. Don't you think they have featured enough road/all-road bikes on their website?

I received an email today from Firefly announcing they are offering an ebike build in their model line up.

[vincenz]

I think this post is worth repeating. $4,500 for a brand new bike seems reasonable, right? Maybe a little too high. But that price will come down as technology improves. And if you're an "entry level" cyclist, why wouldn't you opt for this bike?



So, eventually, eBikes will be the new "norm." That's my best guess. And then what?


I don’t think $4500 is reasonable for any bike for a beginner cyclist. More like $450. People who pay four grand for a starting bike are also those who will likely lose interest in a few months and sell it on Craigslist for less than half that.

Nothing against e-bikers. They are cyclists in my mind. What I don’t agree with entirely is the notion of an e-bike in the form of a carbon race bike. The concept of that is lost on me.

E-bike for commuting, utility, ok totally understand, but it should take the form of a hybrid townie. Form follows function. Not some dropper-post, MTB, fat slicks, fenders, headlight-dynamo, rack, road bike saddle wearing...thing...as the “norm.”

Tradizione, I suppose.

[sonicCows]

ultimately, i do think there will have to be some distinction between pedal only bikes and e-bikes. i'm thinking about an event like D2R2; it's simply not the same level of accomplishment if you finish the grueling 180k on a standard pedal bicycle vs having some level of assist. even smaller gatherings of friends - will there be the same level of mutual suffering that brings us together and feeling of shared miles when some portion of the group gets an e-boost?

i dont know.

I understand your perspective as it's a part of cycling canon, as seen in "shut up legs". But let's be real: while cyclists can become stronger with training rides, just how many weeks would it take to go from a 10mph average to 19mph? Considering this, how would friends new to cycling (note, not friends made via cycling) join you in far-flung adventure rides if they need to start from zero? Hard to answer unless you don't have friends to ride with...

Aren't less-fit people who take an e-bike to D2R2 still having a hard enough time? Wouldn't the e-bikers at D2R2 know that they're using an e-bike, thus providing them an advantage over leg-bikes? Are legs-only riders such snowflakes that they're offended an e-biker happened to feel some accomplishment after a long day of riding? What gives them the right to remove that sense of accomplishment–smugness and superiority? This isn't a participation trophy argument–most rides don't even have trophies!

Most rides, D2R2 included, are not competitions. This forum had a sh1tstorm over racing accomplishments with regard to testosterone levels. This e-bike issue is even simpler: since it's not a race nothing is actually earned. The "everyone must suffer as I do" idea is toxic to cycling's inclusivity. Bikes are fun and their proliferation will make our communities better. I am glad insecure MAMILs are not part of this picture.

tl;dr: ok roadie

[vincenz]

I understand your perspective as it's a part of cycling canon, as seen in "shut up legs". But let's be real: while cyclists can become stronger with training rides, just how many weeks would it take to go from a 10mph average to 19mph? Considering this, how would friends new to cycling (note, not friends made via cycling) join you in far-flung adventure rides if they need to start from zero? Hard to answer unless you don't have friends to ride with...

Aren't less-fit people who take an e-bike to D2R2 still having a hard enough time? Wouldn't the e-bikers at D2R2 know that they're using an e-bike, thus providing them an advantage over leg-bikes? Are legs-only riders such snowflakes that they're offended an e-biker happened to feel some accomplishment after a long day of riding? What gives them the right to remove that sense of accomplishment–smugness and superiority? This isn't a participation trophy argument–most rides don't even have trophies!

Most rides, D2R2 included, are not competitions. This forum had a sh1tstorm over racing accomplishments with regard to testosterone levels. This e-bike issue is even simpler: since it's not a race nothing is actually earned. The "everyone must suffer as I do" idea is toxic to cycling's inclusivity. Bikes are fun and their proliferation will make our communities better. I am glad insecure MAMILs are not part of this picture.

tl;dr: ok roadie



I don’t think a separation in classification is uncalled for between e-bikes and pedal powered. Your example of a beginner wanting to join group rides and needing an e-bike is weak. Either ride what everyone else is riding or ride with others who ride what you do. You can’t expect the same treatment when the work done isn’t the same.

There are different cultures and subcultures within cycling, like in many other hobbies and interests. If e-biking is to be a major thing, best to make it separate.

P.S. Strava could have a hand in doing this. Maybe Zwifters can stop polluting the feed with their “miles” at the same time.

[XXtwindad]

I understand your perspective as it's a part of cycling canon, as seen in "shut up legs". But let's be real: while cyclists can become stronger with training rides, just how many weeks would it take to go from a 10mph average to 19mph? Considering this, how would friends new to cycling (note, not friends made via cycling) join you in far-flung adventure rides if they need to start from zero? Hard to answer unless you don't have friends to ride with...

Aren't less-fit people who take an e-bike to D2R2 still having a hard enough time? Wouldn't the e-bikers at D2R2 know that they're using an e-bike, thus providing them an advantage over leg-bikes? Are legs-only riders such snowflakes that they're offended an e-biker happened to feel some accomplishment after a long day of riding? What gives them the right to remove that sense of accomplishment–smugness and superiority? This isn't a participation trophy argument–most rides don't even have trophies!

Most rides, D2R2 included, are not competitions. This forum had a sh1tstorm over racing accomplishments with regard to testosterone levels. This e-bike issue is even simpler: since it's not a race nothing is actually earned. The "everyone must suffer as I do" idea is toxic to cycling's inclusivity. Bikes are fun and their proliferation will make our communities better. I am glad insecure MAMILs are not part of this picture.

tl;dr: ok roadie

You bring up some interesting points, but I'm not convinced that ebikers (especially not novice ones) should be participating in large traditional fondos. I'm guessing there are liability issues pertaining to safety.

[zambenini]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

I am pro e-biek for people who need them or don't want to show up to work all sweaty, but when it comes to a sport or activity such as cycling, and lots of other things in life, it's, like, OK for certain things to be hard and to have boundaries and for some things to be earned. Shouldn't be a big deal.

The AT would be a lot more inclusive if it was paved and graded so as never to change more than a few feet/mile in elevation, but it would then also cease to be the Appalachian Trail. Maybe we could all thru-hike it in mag-lev chairs some day. Good way to beat the walkers to the shelter.

[sonicCows]

I don’t think a separation in classification is uncalled for between e-bikes and pedal powered. Your example of a beginner wanting to join group rides and needing an e-bike is weak.

I made no mention of beginners wanting to join group rides. My point was in regard to the number of solo training rides a newer cyclist would need to build fitness for long all-day rides, so their friends would no longer need to wait for them on casual friendly rides. Maybe what you are saying is foreign to me as my life and friends don't entirely revolve around cycling, I don't know.

Either ride what everyone else is riding or ride with others who ride what you do.

This is brilliant, thanks for the advice.

You bring up some interesting points, but I'm not convinced that ebikers (especially not novice ones) should be participating in large traditional fondos. I'm guessing there are liability issues pertaining to safety.
Liability issues are totally valid, as is the increased access issue (more use of trails = more wear). Also e-bikers going up Alpe d'Huez and having terrible handling skills for a descent, I agree there is some self-segregating going on as it is (but regular cyclists aren't immune either)

[redir]

I should be able to wear flippers at my local swim meet to!

If it's not an actual race but a Fondo or a century there is a reason why they are called cycling challenges. Everyone can still get a trophy but you have to pedal the darn bike to do it.

I guess golf is one sport that has a 'handicap' and that always seemed fake to me. Interestingly my brother who is truly handicap as he has one arm just shot a 76 the other day and can compete at a very high level. So no excuses? When I play with him I shoot from the same tees and he kicks my arse every match... That's life.

[sonicCows]

I should be able to wear flippers at my local swim meet to!

If it's not an actual race but a Fondo or a century there is a reason why they are called cycling challenges. Everyone can still get a trophy but you have to pedal the darn bike to do it.

I guess golf is one sport that has a 'handicap' and that always seemed fake to me. Interestingly my brother who is truly handicap as he has one arm just shot a 76 the other day and can compete at a very high level. So no excuses? When I play with him I shoot from the same tees and he kicks my arse every match... That's life.

I agree with you on Fondos and organized centuries! But remember OP's premise was for casual rides with buddies. If you're in Europe with your sig. other who isn't as herculean as you are, what's wrong with them renting an ebike to join you for mountain passes and the views? They can even say they biked it! As long as they don't lie about using an ebike. Anyway, no point for me making this point on The Paceline forums

[vincenz]

I should be able to wear flippers at my local swim meet to!



If it's not an actual race but a Fondo or a century there is a reason why they are called cycling challenges. Everyone can still get a trophy but you have to pedal the darn bike to do it.



I guess golf is one sport that has a 'handicap' and that always seemed fake to me. Interestingly my brother who is truly handicap as he has one arm just shot a 76 the other day and can compete at a very high level. So no excuses? When I play with him I shoot from the same tees and he kicks my arse every match... That's life.



Hear hear.

I’ve seen pics of cyclists with no arms and one leg pedaling on their own. On the other hand there are e-bikers who complain about fairness and inclusivity.

[palincss]

I made no mention of beginners wanting to join group rides. My point was in regard to the number of solo training rides a newer cyclist would need to build fitness for long all-day rides, so their friends would no longer need to wait for them on casual friendly rides. Maybe what you are saying is foreign to me as my life and friends don't entirely revolve around cycling, I don't know.



This is brilliant, thanks for the advice.


Liability issues are totally valid, as is the increased access issue (more use of trails = more wear). Also e-bikers going up Alpe d'Huez and having terrible handling skills for a descent, I agree there is some self-segregating going on as it is (but regular cyclists aren't immune either)

I know several e-bikers. In my experience, the way you get to be an e-biker is you've been a regular non-motorized cyclist for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and then you get cancer, or heart disease, or both, or you find once you get into your 80s that you just don't have as much speed or endurance as you did back when you were younger and only in your 70s. And because you've been a cyclist for 30 or 40 or 50 years, your friends are also cyclists and you (obviously) love it and don't want to give it up. If you can't train your way out of this dilemma, a motorized assist gives you a way.

But being fortunate enough to not have had either cancer or heart disease or both and young enough and strong enough to be able to ride up any mountain (it doesn't have to be a legendary beyond-category climb) doesn't insure that you have great handling skills for a descent.

[makoti]

I went here: https://electricbikereview.com/forum/forums/general/ and a lot of the topics looked awful familiar. Tubeless? Bike delivered chipped. How should I handle? Show your bike threads.
It's a bike, ride it & be happy. If you meet someone else on two wheels & they aren't a jerk, be glad and say hi. What they do doesn't change what you do.

[mtechnica]

E-bikes have motors, they are a different thing than a conventional bicycle. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with riding an E-bike, but whether or not they should be allowed in rides traditionally done with conventional bicycles is debatable. On one hand the rider might be skilled but with health problems that prevent them from riding a conventional bike. On the other hand there could be inexperienced hot headed people butting in on Pacelines they have no business being near. I’m not really sure if there’s any way to police this. It seems like most people want to err on the side of inclusivity which is fine. Ultimately the more people out on the streets riding the better.

All that said I think race bike style e-bikes are big time lame for an able bodied person to ride but that’s just in my opinion.

[sitzmark]

So much handwringing over such an unimportant issue ... e-bikes. I don't have one and haven't ridden one. They threaten me not. Outside of an official race where there should be efforts to "level playing fields" for the sake of competition, none of this matters. There are strong novice riders who can hang with strong cyclists without the aid of an e-bike. Maybe not in the numbers as e-bikes allow, but it happens. Those riders are just as dangerous and get "schooled" quickly about how to ride in groups/pacelines.

The wives of a couple of fellow riders have purchased e-bikes. After never riding with their spouses, they now ride together frequently. Despite my suggestion that we all ride together some time, the wives will not join "the boys". My wife has no interest in an e-bike. I ride with her fairly regularly and it is a challenge for me. If my heart rate hits 100 it's a "workout", but I love her and enjoy the time we spend together. Selfishly I would appreciate it if we could maintain a little faster/stronger pace, but it is what it is. She will never know the joy of riding with any of my cycling friends.

A friend was once one of the strongest riders in our group. He hit hard times financially, a divorce, and some health issues. Now in his early 50's, he's a physical wreck. Wanting him to rejoin our group, we suggested he buy an e-bike and ride with us again... use it to start a process of regaining his fitness while being part of the gang at the same time. The expletives that came from his mouth at the suggestion that he was such a wuss he needed an e-bike. Downright pissed off he was. OK fine. Been 4 years and we haven't seen much of him and will likely be that way for another 4 or more. We enjoyed his company, but if his masculinity is threatened by an e-bike so be it. He is a wuss.

Carry on.... :)

[AngryScientist]

So much handwringing over such an unimportant issue ... e-bikes.

As a reminder, this IS a cycling forum, and if there is one thing we are free to discuss, it should be bicycles.

I do not see the conversation here, for the most part - to be handwringing. there have been some interesting perspectives and thoughts expressed here, and that's good. if we all thought and felt the same way about some of the new, emerging topics in the cycling world, this would be a dull forum, and surrounding ourselves with people who may think differently than we do is generally not a bad thing.

A few of you seemingly have taken the conversation too personally. Let's take a step back, and try and discuss the actual topic, not try and directly attack someone else's perspective. that goes for everyone. thank you!

[AngryScientist]

Aren't less-fit people who take an e-bike to D2R2 still having a hard enough time? Wouldn't the e-bikers at D2R2 know that they're using an e-bike, thus providing them an advantage over leg-bikes? Are legs-only riders such snowflakes that they're offended an e-biker happened to feel some accomplishment after a long day of riding? What gives them the right to remove that sense of accomplishment–smugness and superiority?

just to respond to this portion: D2R2 was conceived, and at it's essence, in the spirit of the Randonnee, which, by basic definition emphasizes the endurance part of the sport with an emphasis on self reliance.

i am not anti e-bike, and the "OK Roadie" snarky comment is lost on me, since i am very much not a typical roadie, but in my view (which may differ from yours...), it is not in the spirit of the rondonnee and self reliance to complete the course with an assisted bike, much in the same way, in my opinion, it would be in poor form to show up to paris-brest-paris with an e-bike.

for casual rides with friends, sure thing, no problem in my book, just clarifying my opinion.

[joosttx]

just to respond to this portion: D2R2 was conceived, and at it's essence, in the spirit of the Randonnee, which, by basic definition emphasizes the endurance part of the sport with an emphasis on self reliance.

i am not anti e-bike, and the "OK Roadie" snarky comment is lost on me, since i am very much not a typical roadie, but in my view (which may differ from yours...), it is not in the spirit of the rondonnee and self reliance to complete the course with an assisted bike, much in the same way, in my opinion, it would be in poor form to show up to paris-brest-paris with an e-bike.

for casual rides with friends, sure thing, no problem in my book, just clarifying my opinion.

I think the first time I did D2R2 I was riding 32mm tires with a 34x32 gearing. My buddy was riding 28mm with 34x27 gearing. I am sure others have done it with a lot more challenging equipment. I hear the D2R2 old timers lament these new gravel bikes make D2R2 less of a challenge than it was back in the day. My point is let your freak flag fly because there is always going to tell you their struggle is more real than yours. Whatever gets you up that hill fine. Just get up that hill.

[sitzmark]

As a reminder, this IS a cycling forum, and if there is one thing we are free to discuss, it should be bicycles.

...

Agreed and fair enough. What is being discussed is who is and is not allowed to be a "cyclist" by the choice of the bi-pedaled, bi-wheeled vehicle they chose to ride.

I suppose that "belongs" in a cycling forum, but I still consider it handwringing.

[AngryScientist]

Whatever gets you up that hill fine. Just get up that hill.

well, i guess that's where we disagree. i draw the line where the bike is no longer 100% human powered for randonnee typed endurance events.

but hey, that's just my opinion, we'll have to see what the event organizers have to say about that and if they make any rule amendments to deal with e-bikes. it's certainly not up to me.

[Burnette]

Agreed and fair enough. What is being discussed is who is and is not allowed to be a "cyclist" by the choice of the bi-pedaled, bi-wheeled vehicle they chose to ride.

I suppose that "belongs" in a cycling forum, but I still consider it handwringing.

It's absolutely handwringing and dividing the herd based on one metric is funny. Because the people here knocking Ebikes get rankled when they are marginalized and looked down upon for their bicycle, their clothing, their lack of physical fitness.

So if they get called a "Fred", an old slow guy riding an expensive "dentist bike", or an outdated relic, that they're wearing a cheap jersey or were dumb enough to buy too expensive bibs, that thier thighs are puny, that they can't hang on a hill or take a long pull, that maybe they shouldn't be allowed to join the group ride, that they aren't one of "us", maybe they'll see the fallacy of the argument.

All that sounds crazy doesn't it? But you can experience it on the road in group rides and read about it on cycling forums from our motorless brethren about each other.

They push to alienate others while simultaneously try to conform to a group standard. It's all a bit high school'ish.

[cash05458]

reminds me of scooter vs. motorcycles arguments...in the end, it's all pretty relative and fairly meaningless both ways...

[mtechnica]

Ok so what the inclusive camp is saying is that if it has pedals it’s a bicycle and the person riding it is a cyclist, no matter what the rest of the bike is like or how much power the assist provides? The distinguishing factor here versus a motorcycle is the pedals?

[XXtwindad]

Ok so what the inclusive camp is saying is that if it has pedals it’s a bicycle and the person riding it is a cyclist, no matter what the rest of the bike is like or how much power the assist provides? The distinguishing factor here versus a motorcycle is the pedals?

Good question.

[pdmtong]

I think the first time I did D2R2 I was riding 32mm tires with a 34x32 gearing. My buddy was riding 28mm with 34x27 gearing. I am sure others have done it with a lot more challenging equipment. I hear the D2R2 old timers lament these new gravel bikes make D2R2 less of a challenge than it was back in the day. My point is let your freak flag fly because there is always going to tell you their struggle is more real than yours. Whatever gets you up that hill fine. Just get up that hill.

This is no different than suspension and discs suddenly making trails that were extremely difficult on my rigid 30+ pound biopace six speed toe clipped u-braked fisher mountain bike an absolute pleasure to ride.

[joosttx]

This is no different than suspension and discs suddenly making trails that were extremely difficult on my rigid 30+ pound biopace six speed toe clipped u-braked fisher mountain bike an absolute pleasure to ride.

exactly....

[colker]

Tribalism is natural. It´s an irrational defense mechanism that separates people... it´s wrong but not that much wrong. It´s good to be able to be slightly wrong sometimes and sneer at those that "don´t get it". As long as you are still ethical and good to others when needed... you are ok. If a group of roadies decide to be snobs it´s not the end of the world. It´s the whole cool x uncool religious war that took over the world, isn´t it?

[joosttx]

Tribalism is natural. It´s an irrational defense mechanism that separates people... it´s wrong but not that much wrong. It´s good to be able to be slightly wrong sometimes and sneer at those that "don´t get it". As long as you are still ethical and good to others when needed... you are ok. If a group of roadies decide to be snobs it´s not the end of the world. It´s the whole cool x uncool religious war that took over the world, isn´t it?

I think ole Jack Rousseau would disagree.

[jamesdak]

Ok so what the inclusive camp is saying is that if it has pedals it’s a bicycle and the person riding it is a cyclist, no matter what the rest of the bike is like or how much power the assist provides? The distinguishing factor here versus a motorcycle is the pedals?


Hmmm, I wonder what Fabian Cancellara thinks about all this. :rolleyes:

[Burnette]

It's totally wrong, immature and small minded. You teach your children not to disparage people just because they are different, not to be a bullly, not to pick on people, not to be rude.

Pushing intolerance and being mean and devisive is sad, especially from the aged among us as we would hope that time experience would have shown them by now why it's wrong.

And again, when that intolerance, that immaturity, that excluding behavior is applied to you, for what you ride, because of how old you are and the way you look, from that perspective you will see those who choose do such for what they are.

[mtechnica]

Alrighty then hippies at what point does a bicycle become a motorcycle?

[FlashUNC]

A hot dog is a sandwich.

[Burnette]

Alrighty then hippies at what point does a bicycle become a motorcycle?

When you put a playing card in the spokes or make motorcycle sounds with your mouth :banana:

[joosttx]

A hot dog is a sandwich.

sandwich must have a flatten side of meat. Slice a hotdog then it becomes a sandwich.

[cash05458]

mittens or gloves...take a stand and be heard...:)

[fried bake]

Ok so what the inclusive camp is saying is that if it has pedals it’s a bicycle and the person riding it is a cyclist, no matter what the rest of the bike is like or how much power the assist provides? The distinguishing factor here versus a motorcycle is the pedals?

My distinction is between the moped delivery ebikes that populate. NYC, and the less powerful assist ebikes, which I’ve come to call hybrid ebikes.

I just purchased an Orbea M30 and its a blast. It allows me to ride hills I use to have to avoid due to my A-fib, and ride more frequently (I live in Pittsburgh so there’s always a hill somewhere) therefore getting fitter.

I’m particularly excited about being able to once again ride in New Paltz (also very hilly but so beautiful) with my brother, which was an adventure that I felt was stolen from me when I received my Afib diagnosis several years ago.

I should add and (not to you, specifically but in general,) the carbon is for weight saving and drop bars are because they make most sense for the specific use case (i.e road riding) The motor is hidden so you can have two bottles, and furthermore aesthetics are everyone’s concern. We all want nice looking bikes.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[colker]

It's totally wrong, immature and small minded. You teach your children not to disparage people just because they are different, not to be a bullly, not to pick on people, not to be rude.

Pushing intolerance and being mean and devisive is sad, especially from the aged among us as we would hope that time experience would have shown them by now why it's wrong.

And again, when that intolerance, that immaturity, that excluding behavior is applied to you, for what you ride, because of how old you are and the way you look, from that perspective you will see those who choose do such for what they are.

Aren´t you exaggerating this a little bit? It´s not apartheid in South Africa... it´s just roadie neurotic elitism, that´s all.
Mods x rockers, punks x hippies, mountain bikers x roadies. It´s just cartoonish behaviour.

[AngryScientist]

i think we've taken this discussion to the end of the road.