The "New" MTB Geo - Yea or Neigh?

[zambenini]

OK, gang, I need a new MTB since my beloved pink Cielo bit the dust and everything MTB geometry-related is weird now. Hard to isolate the variable cuz I've also ridden SS for awhile and some times rigid.

At some folks' advice, today I test rode the 2020 Santa Cruz Tallboy. While the size Large was just a little small as I'm typically between L and XL sizes, it felt looooong and the 20mm extra suspension travel I didn't like at all. First time I've swung a leg over a FS. I appreciated the rear suspension a fair amount when I rode over some log rollers and up a little rooty off camber thing a couple times. But I couldn't get over how much the front end would just wander around. I know the 2020 Tallboy is even slacker than the 2019, so maybe last year's model isn't like this, but to me, it was like a stubborn horse. The wheelbase is like 150mm longer than my current bike! I have never ridden a bike that felt like that. I thought it was a chopper motorcycle.

They are telling me across the hall at VS that you have to completely change the way you ride to "get" the new bikes.

I'm starting to think I liked the way the old geo worked and how you have to get low and far back when you're doing anything techy or downhill, and get your elbows and knees soft. I am gonna ride my buddy's Fuel before I nail the lid in the coffin, but what would y'all say?

I'm just young enough that I don't feel like another hardtail is gonna beat me up too bad, and based on where I ride I don't think it will be a big penalty. Basically 80% flowy singletrack with not much elevation change, 20% more adventurous stuff, either classic Old School singletrack, or hoop-de-doos/berms, with more elevation change, and a handful of trips to DuPont, Warrior Creek, or Tsali every year.

More critically: Would I be missing the boat a second time by not going more up to date on geometry? Is it worth re-learning how to ride a bike for the sake of how they make bikes now? So, the "New" Geo: yea or neigh?

Thanks in advance. JZ

[KonaSS]

Sounds like you went from a XC hardtail old school geometry to a new school geometry trail bike.

Maybe try a more XC oriented bike with new school geometry. Something that isn't such a jump from what you had, and based on your trail description, it doesn't sound like you need a trail bike with lots of travel.

[NHAero]

I'm sure most MTBers here ride harder than I do, so take this FWIW. I ride an 'old geo' 2013 FS Pivot 429 in fairly flat Martha's Vineyard, where the ups and downs are short. I don't see a benefit of a more modern, longer, slacked out geo that's optimized for speed downhill. My intention is to keep this bike well maintained so I don't have to upgrade to a newer geo.

Sounds like you went from a XC hardtail old school geometry to a new school geometry trail bike.

Maybe try a more XC oriented bike with new school geometry. Something that isn't such a jump from what you had, and based on your trail description, it doesn't sound like you need a trail bike with lots of travel.

[vqdriver]

I'm reading the same. That pendulum swung pretty far.
I also recommend a fs xc. And dont dig too far into the numbers here. Mtb is really about what fits right which really doesn't come off a geo chart so well. Also note that setting the suspension differently on the same bike can really change the character of the ride

[nmrt]

I too was or am like you in my mtb choices. I had a Moots SS rigid hardtail. Now, I have a new school geo hardtail MTB and a new school geo FS MTB. I still miss my Moots with the old 71 deg HT angle. But now I have a gravel bike which slots in instead of the Moots.

I think you should decide your bike not in old school or new school geo but where you ride. If you ride most flowy non technical stuff, these big suspension bikes might be overkill. I know because I have these and these bikes are sluggish on such trails. But my gravel bike or my Moots was just amazing here. But then again, if I took my new school geo mtb bikes to techy stuff, man...o....man...what bikes these are. I am faster, more in control, and love every single minute of it. I know because I took my SS rigid Moots on such techy stuff and the bike was simply out of its element.

So, get the bike that best suits your terrain. Right bike for the right trail is where happiness lies.

[sparky33]

Sounds like you went from a XC hardtail old school geometry to a new school geometry trail bike.



Maybe try a more XC oriented bike with new school geometry. Something that isn't such a jump from what you had, and based on your trail description, it doesn't sound like you need a trail bike with lots of travel.


Yes and Yes.

[kingpin75s]

I certainly know some of the builders etc across the hall who believe in the new school geo. The ones I know, for the terrain they ride in and for aggressive riding, the new geometry makes sense. I am not even talking FS as I do not ride them. Specifically geo based on a longer front center and higher trail number than standard mountain bikes while keeping weight distribution balanced and the rear center relatively short and tucked under. I can say for sure that if you want to rail a hard tail on really rocky and rooty East coast single track, the new geo has significant benefits.

I still ride mostly old school geo because I live in the midwest and its great there.

I have one custom hardtail that is new school and I take it out for the rough stuff, the drop ins, anytime I am looking at fast challenging trails. Techy chunky XC at a bare minimum and even then I am usually back on something a little steeper.

While mine is custom, and I would always recommend that if possible, I am a fan of bikes like the Esker Hayduke and some of the Chromag stuff along with a number of other new shops that are producing interesting modern hardtails.

Your trails will tell you what kind of bike is for you so you are probably on the right track to stay on the XC end of things based on how your local trails sound.

[rkhatibi]

I have a 2017 Intense Spider, full suspension 650B w/XC geo/travel. long/low. Not as extreme as your case, but definitely new geo. It took 3-4 outings to really get the geo. The way I think about it is

* counter steer and lean like it's a motorcycle. The geo is slack and not consciously counter steering makes directional changes very slow. Once you really commit to counter steering it's fantastic.
* point it and lay off handlebar input. Current geo is very stable. Get it pointed and let the suspension and geo do the work.
* modern wheels and suspension even out the technical stuff which compensates for the long/low geo.
* You'll ride faster than previously once you understand the bike which will still make it engaging to ride.

If possible I'd suggest following someone on a similar bike who has the technique down to quickly learn. ymmv, etc etc.

[CMiller]

If you like older school xc style the Specialized Chisel seems to be really nice balanced. Great geometry but the standover height is way more than most trail bikes.

I am riding a Santa Cruz Chameleon and it's seriously the most fun I've ever had on a bike. It is balanced, easy to throw around, and makes anything downhill half the effort as before. Give it a try with a 120mm fork, could strike a good mid ground. Honestly, mountain bikes are just so good now, I'm a believer even on easy SF bay fire roads.

[BryanE]

Three rides later you won't notice.

[buddybikes]

Have Moots build you what you want and include that seatstay damper. What's a little cash loss to your kids inheritance!

[echelon_john]

I’m with you. I had a new IF Deluxe 29er built last year and stuck with a 70 degree head angle and 72 degree seat angle which is much closer to ‘old’ than ‘new’ geometry. Love it.

[45K10]

I rode a new Pivot 429 trail the other weekend. It was pretty sweet but I hear you about the way it handles. It was great on the techy bits but I didn't particularly care for way it cornered on the trails around here.

I was about to pull the trigger on a new Moots (with old school geo) since my Niner frame cracked but then our boiler decided to crap out. I'm just going to ride the new Niner Air 9 frame I got as a warranty replacement instead.

[HenryA]

Based on:

“I'm just young enough that I don't feel like another hardtail is gonna beat me up too bad, and based on where I ride I don't think it will be a big penalty. Basically 80% flowy singletrack with not much elevation change, 20% more adventurous stuff, either classic Old School singletrack, or hoop-de-doos/berms, with more elevation change, and a handful of trips to DuPont, Warrior Creek, or Tsali every year.”

I think you will be fine with an old school bike.
Riding what you list, I don’t see the advantage to a downhill inspired bike.

Last weekend I rode my dirtbike (motorcycle) on some nice, nice singletrack at a club event. There is a fair amount of swapping rides at these things sometimes. And conversations about all the old an new. Some of every age of bike going back 25 or 30 years. New bikes have 12” of travel both ends. Some of the older bikes only half that. A fair number of riders believe that for tight single track the new tall long travel bikes are not really better. I’m in that camp. There were riders in attendance on old restored bikes who were flying through the woods.

The new motorcycle hotness of the last 20- 30 years or so came from Supercross with huge artificial jumps and extreme obstacles. Basically racing revamped for TV with lost of sensational moves and breath taking tricks. I don’t think it got better, just more sensational for spectator pleasure and sponsor marketing.

Pretty much feel the same about MTBs. The new riding and new bikes are a derivitive of spectatorship and marketing. Maybe not better for regular day to day riding by regular riders. Unless you're riding rides that demand the new tech and are inclined to that style of riding, I don’t think you want that kind of bike.

[JAGI410]

I had a 2017-2019 Tallboy and loved the geo, but hated the low BB. The trend of even longer, lower, slacker is slightly lost on me. Right now the trends are all about steepening up the STA for better climbing. This basically requires you to use your dropper (and you should) for any and all descents. The downside of the steep STA is that some people are reporting hand and wrist issues.

I do think there is a sweet spot, but it's hard to find. And circa-2014 or older bike just feels weird and twitchy to me.

My Salsa Horsethief was a geometry experiment for me and I really like it. However it's a tall bike with not much standover. The frame fits a nice framebag and 2 waterbottles however, so it's a tradeoff.

[commonguy001]

If you can find a V3 Tallboy to demo (17-19 I think), it’s a seriously great trail bike. I have one and am hanging onto it as it’s really spot on for anything short of enduro type trails. It also sounds perfect for where you want to ride. Look for an XL, L may feel small. I’m just a hair over 6’ and the L is barely long enough.


I also have the new Bronson and while it’s a great bike, it’s really at home on gravity trails and doesn’t really come alive until you’re pushing it.
The 65 degree HTA isn’t ideal for XC Type trails.

[Jaybee]

I have a 2017 Intense Spider, full suspension 650B w/XC geo/travel. long/low. Not as extreme as your case, but definitely new geo. It took 3-4 outings to really get the geo. The way I think about it is

* counter steer and lean like it's a motorcycle. The geo is slack and not consciously counter steering makes directional changes very slow. Once you really commit to counter steering it's fantastic.
* point it and lay off handlebar input. Current geo is very stable. Get it pointed and let the suspension and geo do the work.
* modern wheels and suspension even out the technical stuff which compensates for the long/low geo.
* You'll ride faster than previously once you understand the bike which will still make it engaging to ride.

If possible I'd suggest following someone on a similar bike who has the technique down to quickly learn. ymmv, etc etc.

Three rides later you won't notice.

These guys have it right. The first ride or four on a modern geo bike will feel a bit odd. For most of the steep tech that you were getting way back on your Cielo you can just stay middle of the bike and let the geo and fork do the work. These bikes need some weight on the front wheel - getting back makes the front even more wander-y. When you get used to it, they are actually more playful and flickable than your XC hardtail of yesteryear.

That said, the 2020 Tallboy is pretty slack, and there's a lot of space in between that and your Cielo. A Fuel EX will be slightly less slack and thus a bit quicker to initiate turns but it also likes to wallow in its travel under power. The most recent range of FS XC Race bikes like the Top Fuel or Epic or Blur LT or Spark - something 120-140 up front and 100-200 in the back with a stiff pedaling platform and 68ish HTA is really a do everything bike for most people. Or check out the Chameleon mentioned above if you want the hardtail feel with modern geo and extended capability.

[djg21]

I’ve been looking hard for a new MTB. I’ve always liked FS XC bikes, and I’m now on an old 2007 Spec Epic. I initially was sold on the Orbea Oiz Trail, which is essentially an XC race bike with 130/130 travel shocks (rather that 100/100 that stocked on the pure XC race. These XC bikes with beefed up travel are now being referred to as “downcountry” bikes. But I’ve been convinced to at least look at some of the shorter travel trail bikes. So I’m looking at the Pivot Trail 429, the YETI SB130, tHe Ibis Ripley, etc. I’m not racing any more, and want a single bike for everything. There is just something about the way an XC bike handles that I’m really reluctant to give up.

[kingpin75s]

The downside of the steep STA is that some people are reporting hand and wrist issues.


^ This.

As I run a lot of dirt drops that allow for a longer and more narrow cockpit, I have been following forward geometry since Mondraker started pushing it. Agreed with some of the benefits of the longer front center but not the forward weight distribution.

I look for bikes that are closer to what I refer to as ForwardNotForward geometry. Give me the front center but not at the expense of balanced weight distribution.

Among many other brands I watched Peter Verdone's (PVD) iterations in this space over a couple of years. While his bikes got more aggressive than I was interested in, what I did see was him dialing back the minimal setback to something more balanced as he learned through his experimentation. That's the point when I got really interested and had Joel at Clockwork build me an aggressive LT Hardtail with balanced but modern geometry. Not a super low BB, not crazy slack, but long FC and tucked rear. My setback is such that I do not expect any wrist issues and I build every bike I own with great consideration to my wrists.

[zambenini]

Ok, just got off the fuel (couple years old not sure which year) I liked it a lot better than the tall boy. Still I think game set and match for a hardtail for me. Challenge is I think it was still to small. But yeah, I got the "middle of the bike" position. I think I like the further back and stretched out set up I was on. Oh yeah, and I don't mind sticking to singlespeed! I might try to ride one more "new" bike in an XL before pulling the trigger.

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[fmradio516]

I bought my 2018 YT Jeffsy because I knew that the 2019 model was going to have the newer geo with the longer reach. I am notorious for needing short stems(at least on my road bikes) because i have a 36" inseam and im 6'3", so im all legs, no torso.

It fits me great, but if this is the way things are moving, i probably should have just got the newer geo model because this is really my first mtn bike and i pretty much learned how to ride trails on this. Should have gotten used to the longer geo so its not a huge difference when i inevitably need a new bike.

[Jaybee]

Size on a MTB is quickly divorcing itself from traditional nomenclature. I'm 6'0 even with long arms and I fit M, L, XL depending on the brand. The real key is that I need a reach between 455-465mm and enough seatpost extension for a 150mm dropper and enough stack that those point don't put my handlebars more than 3cm below the saddle