OT: Good Read about homelessness

[BobbyJones]

Thought I'd share as the subject comes up here every now and then.

I fell for the click bait title and thought it was a pretty good article, not leaning too far left or right and mostly avoiding governmental blame and sensationalism. Really focuses on people that are involved in the middle of this, not policy makers and "experts".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/08/us/homeless-yale-grad/index.html

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

[2LeftCleats]

Good read. Thanks for posting.

[jm714]

I deal with homelessness everyday as a city manager in california. The city I work for doesn’t have the resources to provide housing to these people, the tax structure in california is too limited. I know you’re going to say give me a break, but it’s true. We have tried hiring social outreach people, but it has been met with limited success, it takes a lot of contact hours to get these people to accept help. We have even found shelter for some that refuse to go. There are a number of beds available in the county where my city is to shelter the homeless. However, they typically have a religious affiliation and require some sort of spiritual lesson that the 9th Circuit doesn’t appreciate. There are estimates that over 30,000 of the homeless in California would be in jail if it wasn’t for the adoption of Prop 47 and AB 109 a few years ago, which decriminalized many crimes or made them misdemeanors that have no jail time. As an example if you leave a laptop in your car that is worth less than $900 and I boost it all I will get is a ticket if I get caught. Then you have nimbyism that makes things difficult. It’s gotten to the point that the suggestion of adding permanent supportive housing is being met with strong objections. I could go and on, but I wont.

[Dekonick]

I deal with homelessness everyday as a city manager in california. The city I work for doesn’t have the resources to provide housing to these people, the tax structure in california is too limited. I know you’re going to say give me a break, but it’s true. We have tried hiring social outreach people, but it has been met with limited success, it takes a lot of contact hours to get these people to accept help. We have even found shelter for some that refuse to go. There are a number of beds available in the county where my city is to shelter the homeless. However, they typically have a religious affiliation and require some sort of spiritual lesson that the 9th Circuit doesn’t appreciate. There are estimates that over 30,000 of the homeless in California would be in jail if it wasn’t for the adoption of Prop 47 and AB 109 a few years ago, which decriminalized many crimes or made them misdemeanors that have no jail time. As an example if you leave a laptop in your car that is worth less than $900 and I boost it all I will get is a ticket if I get caught. Then you have nimbyism that makes things difficult. It’s gotten to the point that the suggestion of adding permanent supportive housing is being met with strong objections. I could go and on, but I wont.

There is a lot of truth here... a tough pill to swallow for many. I will add that there also is a complicated social need not being met regarding mental health access, addictions, among other issues. There are no easy answers. I do believe that one key element missing is community and relationship building - Without a sense of belonging and self worth, how can one be expected to believe any 'help' is geared for them and not for some other nefarious cause - after all, no one wants 'them' in their neighborhood... right? It is a tough issue. No easy answer.

[Drmojo]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

[XXtwindad]

Sobering article. There's a fine line between "them" and "us." Friends and family matter.

[HenryA]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

So much right here. ^^^^^^

I think crazy scares lots of folks and lock ‘em up looks like an easy answer. We’re building mental health court programs here and the results are good. Fewer crazy people locked up in jails and less crime and suffering because the people are engaged in a support system rather than being driven from society or incarcerated. Engagement is the key. Ignoring this problem guarantees you will see more.

[Dekonick]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

Yes. Yes to everything you mention.

[bshell]

I live in Santa Cruz, CA. We attract homeless/addicts from all over the country because we have pretty nice weather, very lax policing, plentiful heroin, and tons of open space for illegal camping etc. I'd bet 75% are not from the area. We hand out unlimited free needles (good and bad idea), our police look away from theft/vandalism/property crime, and the state has de-prioritized/decriminalized drug use. I know there is a lot of overlap but I'd guess 30% have hit a rough patch and are down on their luck, looking to recover asap. Another 30% have serious mental health issues (oversimplifying a complex topic). The rest are addicts and dealers and organized thieves (w/their own MH issues). 60%(+?) would not go indoors under anyone's terms or restrictions. Entirely reasonable to fear/be cautious around crazy/addicted people because they can be even more unpredictable than the general public. Most are harmless but we've had several violent attacks (pipe, rocks, machete, etc.) and a couple of murders of complete strangers -not to even mention the homeless-on-homeless assaults. I have been threatened in town and out in the woods -where no one from law enforcement is coming to help you (because experience). Housing/employing these heavily challenged people in an insanely expensive, low paying community is destined to fail forever. I have ideas but they'll never happen.

[fiamme red]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/17/us/oakland-california-homeless-camp.html

[oldpotatoe]

Good read, tough problem and hopefully this won't get too political.
Here in the republic, I've seen 2 homeless 'camps'..latest under the 9th street overpass, next to Canyon, close to library(for those familiar with Boulder).
About a dozen tents, tarps..saw 2 little kids(about 6-10 YO) standing next to one. Sad.. I guess the city os allowing such things BUT..with the $ thrown at ridiculous things, like a bloated and 'non strategy driven' DOD, government pet projects and roads to nowhere..it's appalling.
The Gross Domestic Product per capita in the United States was last recorded at 54541.70 US dollars in 2018. The GDP per Capita in the United States is equivalent to 432 percent of the world's average.

BUT too many politicians see 'help' as 'handouts to lazy people', 'welfare state', and other such pablum. I sure don't have a solution but the 'richest nation in the history of the earth', lacking political will, we continue to have this problem.
Housing/employing these heavily challenged people in an insanely expensive, low paying community is destined to fail forever. I have ideas but they'll never happen.

Let's hear it. In Boulder, I think the % of "The rest are addicts and dealers and organized thieves (w/their own MH issues). 60%(+?) would not go indoors under anyone's terms or restrictions." Isn't nearly that high but I really don't know. BUT pigeon holing this 'community', and trying to find a 'one size fits all' solution never WILL work.

BUT my point is our(local and federal government) $pemding priorities are all out of wack. 'Space Force'?? Really?

[biker72]

What I find sad is that the majority of the homeless here in the Dallas area seem to be veterans.

Unfortunately many of them prefer to sleep under a bridge rather than a shelter. Not being homeless I can't understand how that is safer for them.

[oldpotatoe]

What I find sad is that the majority of the homeless here in the Dallas area seem to be veterans.

Unfortunately many of them prefer to sleep under a bridge rather than a shelter. Not being homeless I can't understand how that is safer for them.

Hard to say but putting that on a piece of cardboard doesn't a veteran make.
A lot were thrown out, some for good reasons, a lot were thrown for bad ones..like PTSD and how it either made them not compatible or resulted in drug use. Too many get thrown out for illicit drug use w/o finding out the whys of it. When I was in, it was 'recreational' drugs..now it's a form of coping or survival.
The VA isn't really helping(see $pending priorities above..space force, YGBSM...)...BUT they are getting better at recognizing and treating mental damage along with physical damage.

[Clancy]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

Some very thought provoking comments. I would like to hear your suggestions for solutions.

I was in Vancouver in May for vacation. One of the most beautiful cities in the world, and being crushed by drug addiction and homelessness. Untold millions of dollars spent with the crisis only growing worse. I saw the future for the rest of the country. Something must be done.....but what?

[bart998]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

Sorry, some right but much wrong here^^^ The homeless problem has been exacerbated by the prop. 47 catch and release rules. While jail is not ideal for mental treatment, it is also often the only option available and dumping them on the streets doesn't help them or anybody else. The mental health "system" needs a total overhaul so people can get the help they need before they harm or rob others and get locked up. As a recently retired police supervisor (31 years) in California, who also supervised in a jail mental facility, I have to disagree with the premise that letting minor offenders off is beneficial. Police are spending millions on mental health training for officers and creating specialized units to respond to their needs. Police have become the defacto mental health system in the absence of a medical one, referring people for treatment everyday without jail. They don't want the job but it has fallen to them since courts stripped apart the old system in the 1970's. If someone ends up in jail it's not because they are mentally ill, it's because they have committed a crime. If you are assaulted or robbed by a mentally ill person, the crime is real not mental. Since prop. 47 passed crime has shot through the roof, with criminals tailoring their crimes to fit the new rules so they can avoid jail time. So, not everyone it caused to be released is a mental patient, many are career criminals and will continue to be.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate promoting stereotypes with the "shoot first" comment, someone with that mentality wouldn't last long in today's LEO climate. It's not a good time for police who are frustrated by crime with no consequences, or your average, law-abiding citizen/victim right now in the once golden state.

[jamesdak]

Sorry, some right but much wrong here^^^ The homeless problem has been exacerbated by the prop. 47 catch and release rules. While jail is not ideal for mental treatment, it is also often the only option available and dumping them on the streets doesn't help them or anybody else. The mental health "system" needs a total overhaul so people can get the help they need before they harm or rob others and get locked up. As a recently retired police supervisor (31 years) in California, who also supervised in a jail mental facility, I have to disagree with the premise that letting minor offenders off is beneficial. Police are spending millions on mental health training for officers and creating specialized units to respond to their needs. Police have become the defacto mental health system in the absence of a medical one, referring people for treatment everyday without jail. They don't want the job but it has fallen to them since courts stripped apart the old system in the 1970's. If someone ends up in jail it's not because they are mentally ill, it's because they have committed a crime. If you are assaulted or robbed by a mentally ill person, the crime is real not mental. Since prop. 47 passed crime has shot through the roof, with criminals tailoring their crimes to fit the new rules so they can avoid jail time. So, not everyone it caused to be released is a mental patient, many are career criminals and will continue to be.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate promoting stereotypes with the "shoot first" comment, someone with that mentality wouldn't last long in today's LEO climate. It's not a good time for police who are frustrated by crime with no consequences, or your average, law-abiding citizen/victim right now in the once golden state.

Thank you!

[HenryA]

Sorry, some right but much wrong here^^^ The homeless problem has been exacerbated by the prop. 47 catch and release rules. While jail is not ideal for mental treatment, it is also often the only option available and dumping them on the streets doesn't help them or anybody else. The mental health "system" needs a total overhaul so people can get the help they need before they harm or rob others and get locked up. As a recently retired police supervisor (31 years) in California, who also supervised in a jail mental facility, I have to disagree with the premise that letting minor offenders off is beneficial. Police are spending millions on mental health training for officers and creating specialized units to respond to their needs. Police have become the defacto mental health system in the absence of a medical one, referring people for treatment everyday without jail. They don't want the job but it has fallen to them since courts stripped apart the old system in the 1970's. If someone ends up in jail it's not because they are mentally ill, it's because they have committed a crime. If you are assaulted or robbed by a mentally ill person, the crime is real not mental. Since prop. 47 passed crime has shot through the roof, with criminals tailoring their crimes to fit the new rules so they can avoid jail time. So, not everyone it caused to be released is a mental patient, many are career criminals and will continue to be.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate promoting stereotypes with the "shoot first" comment, someone with that mentality wouldn't last long in today's LEO climate. It's not a good time for police who are frustrated by crime with no consequences, or your average, law-abiding citizen/victim right now in the once golden state.

Good response, but lacks the critical element.
Whether we like it or not legislatures around the country have abrogated their responsibility to provide for mentally ill citizens. The criminal justice system is what we’re left with. As more and more people are reconized to have actual diagnosed mental health problems, the math of locking them up stops working.

What we’re doing here in my community is not catch and release, but catch and engage. At its most pragmatic, this approach simply saves money and crowded jail resources. On that measure alone, its a smart move.

Engagement is the key. If anyone thinks that locking ‘em up or ignoring the mentally ill is a solution they are wrong. We’ve proven that over several decades. The good news is that some are beginning to recognize the issue for what it is and that its cheaper and better for everyone involved to engage rather than incarcerate in those instances where it is likely to be successful. Sometimes its as simple as keeping a person compliant with their meds. This can be vastly less expensive than incarceration in money and in quality of life for the entire community.

The moral component seems obvious to some, not so much to others. I submit that punishing the mentally ill is like beating your dog for peeing in the house two weeks prior. It does not do any good, only harm. The dog has no idea why its getting beat and no way to connect the beating with the past behavior. It just got beat down and hurt. No good comes from that method.

[HenryA]

I appreciate the grown up conversation happening in this thread.

[jamesdak]

Which is the greater wrong, locking the mentally ill up so they can't harm the innocents of society or letting the mentally ill continue to prey on the innocents of society? Do the rights of the many outweigh the rights of the few? Fuel for thought.

[nesteel]

Which is the greater wrong, locking the mentally ill up so they can't harm the innocents of society or letting the mentally ill continue to prey on the innocents of society? Do the rights of the many outweigh the rights of the few? Fuel for thought.

You're attempting to apply common sense to government. Fools errand any more.

[parris]

One of the things that I've seen over my career in corrections is that often times local judges will remand a low level offense to our facility when the offender had MH issues NOT so much to protect society but rather to get that person at least a minimum level of care and protection.

My facility has 24/7/365 medical staffing as well as mental health services in house. Many first responders have become the front lines in the mental health crisis. It doesn't matter if it's LEO, Corrections, EMT, etc. ALL the professionals "in the business" have seen a massive upswing in mental health issues.

Here in NYS there's been a further problem that may be similar in other states and that is the closing of mental health facilities where many of these people get the care that they actually need in order to survive.

There's tons more to the issue of course.

[cash05458]

bottom line...no matter which side you are on politically...is that not many folks really care about the society they live in...some do and work there and I will give them that...but it is "I have got mine, you got yours and so **** you" if you fall thru the cracks for better or worse...to think anyone in this country really gives a **** about the mentally ill or folks down on their luck is silly...at least at any level of actual reality that is serious and in a real manner? no way and no how...it's dog eats dog...merry xmas...just stop pretending...go with it but be honest.

[Ken Robb]

A cynical person might suspect that a state legislature could see a way to save $$ for their favorite programs by eliminating state mental health programs ostensibly for the benefit of people unjustly confined. Many of those former patients become homeless but that will become a problem for local governments to solve and pay for.

[b33]

I see a myriad of responses in this thread.

None of the responses acknowledged that, in this particular thread, the homeless person in question was: Yale educated, black, and had a husband.

An Ivy League educated African American who also happened to have a sexual orientation towards the same sex . . . . . . . I can not even empathize.

Not sure many here can either.

As a white male who has a sexual orientation to the ladies I know, as a fact, I can't have sympathy . . . I'm trying to have a modicum of empathy.

[XXtwindad]

I see a myriad of responses in this thread.

None of the responses acknowledged that, in this particular thread, the homeless person in question was: Yale educated, black, and had a husband.

An Ivy League educated African American who also happened to have a sexual orientation towards the same sex . . . . . . . I can not even empathize.

Not sure many here can either.

As a white male who has a sexual orientation to the ladies I know, as a fact, I can't have sympathy . . . I'm trying to have a modicum of empathy.

I think you're mistaken. Thankfully.

Edit: I'm hoping I misread your post. It sounded like the individual was less deserving of sympathy because he is gay and black.

[rnhood]

No empathy here either. However, there were some good comments in this thread wrt the homeless problem in general.

[b33]

[/B]
I think you're mistaken. Thankfully.

Edit: I'm hoping I misread your post. It sounded like the individual was less deserving of sympathy because he is gay and black.

You drew that . . . . what I am saying is there is a difference between empathy and sympathy - words matter.

[XXtwindad]

You drew that . . . . what I am saying is there is a difference between empathy and sympathy - words matter.

Yes, Sir. I come from a journalism background, so I agree that words matter. To my reading, you have "sympathy" and "empathy" confused. But either way, I'm still perplexed why you saw it necessary to highlight the individual's race and sexual orientation.

[joosttx]

Yes, Sir. I come from a journalism background, so I agree that words matter. To my reading, you have "sympathy" and "empathy" confused. But either way, I'm still perplexed why you saw it necessary to highlight the individual's race and sexual orientation.

I think the poster you are criticizing was making the point that the subject of the article life story was so different than his it is hard for him to relate.

I will remind everyone in this holiday season we are all humans and have the same universal feelings regardless of who we are, our value systems and experiences.

[el cheapo]

I feel for the mentally and physically challenged that end up homeless. Resources should focus on these deserving folks. For the rest, it's bad life choices. Just because you make bad decisions doesn't mean I should feel responsible for you. Don't use drugs...don't guzzle Vodka...don't have 25 kids...don't break the law...don't live in high cost of living areas with a minimum wage job. I don't ever expect somebody to baby sit me and I'm a democrat!

[William]

I think the poster you are criticizing was making the point that the subject of the article life story was so different than his it is hard for him to relate.

I will remind everyone in this holiday season we are all humans and have the same universal feelings regardless of who we are, our value systems and experiences.


I would agree, and in that way one can be sympathetic and empathize with the plight of others.






W.

[cash05458]

This stuff is why I gave up on doing group rides when I got back from life in europe....

[d_douglas]

Some very thought provoking comments. I would like to hear your suggestions for solutions.

I was in Vancouver in May for vacation. One of the most beautiful cities in the world, and being crushed by drug addiction and homelessness. Untold millions of dollars spent with the crisis only growing worse. I saw the future for the rest of the country. Something must be done.....but what?

Vancouver has a staggering drug problem that rivals or exceeds big American cities. As a resident of a small city two hours away from van bu ferry, our city has changed as well, as many homeless and addicted have moved to victoria to escape the mean streets of Vancouver :(

[merlincustom1]

I see a myriad of responses in this thread.

None of the responses acknowledged that, in this particular thread, the homeless person in question was: Yale educated, black, and had a husband.

An Ivy League educated African American who also happened to have a sexual orientation towards the same sex . . . . . . . I can not even empathize.

Not sure many here can either.

As a white male who has a sexual orientation to the ladies I know, as a fact, I can't have sympathy . . . I'm trying to have a modicum of empathy.
You could easily empathize if you consider that mental illness is an equal opportunity affliction. It doesn’t care whether you’re a Yale educated gay black man or a straight, white, high school dropout. Many clinically depressed people turn to illicit drugs as a form of self help. The same could happen to you. That’s all you need for empathy.

[soulspinner]

Yes, multi-faceted heartbreaking problem.
No, early release and “slap on the wrist”
is the exact opposite of the problem
As a psychiatrist in the public sector, I have
worked in 7 California counties since
1987. I have seen the criminalization
of the mentally at the ground level:
jail, hospital, mobile crisis, and community
outreach. With vanishing mental health
and substance abuse services, local police
are unable to properly get folks the help
they desperately need. Our society has become
punitive and not compassionate. Police are woefully
unequipped to handle people with mental
illness-their training is— “command and control”
Or shoot first, ask questions later. I have treated
countless victims of misguided police brutality:
one fellow shot 5 times for wielding a crowbar 30
yards away from 4 officers. Crazy scares untrained
first responders. So I do understand their frustration
at the system. So when you encounter a homeless
person remember- they live in fear every day.

Ya. Major decline in long term mental health care...……..

[thwart]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/17/us/oakland-california-homeless-camp.html


Whether we like it or not legislatures around the country have abrogated their responsibility to provide for mentally ill citizens. The criminal justice system is what we’re left with. As more and more people are reconized to have actual diagnosed mental health problems, the math of locking them up stops working.

What we’re doing here in my community is not catch and release, but catch and engage. At its most pragmatic, this approach simply saves money and crowded jail resources. On that measure alone, its a smart move.

Engagement is the key. If anyone thinks that locking ‘em up or ignoring the mentally ill is a solution they are wrong. We’ve proven that over several decades. The good news is that some are beginning to recognize the issue for what it is and that its cheaper and better for everyone involved to engage rather than incarcerate in those instances where it is likely to be successful. Sometimes its as simple as keeping a person compliant with their meds. This can be vastly less expensive than incarceration in money and in quality of life for the entire community.

The moral component seems obvious to some, not so much to others. I submit that punishing the mentally ill is like beating your dog for peeing in the house two weeks prior. It does not do any good, only harm. The dog has no idea why its getting beat and no way to connect the beating with the past behavior. It just got beat down and hurt. No good comes from that method.

A good article to go through, and I appreciate this response. Especially on Christmas Day, when many of us are fortunate enough to be surrounded by family, abundant food, and comfortable residence.

Obviously no easy answer, but when we stop caring what happens to others we lose part of our humanity.

[Clancy]

bottom line...no matter which side you are on politically...is that not many folks really care about the society they live in...some do and work there and I will give them that...but it is "I have got mine, you got yours and so **** you" if you fall thru the cracks for better or worse...to think anyone in this country really gives a **** about the mentally ill or folks down on their luck is silly...at least at any level of actual reality that is serious and in a real manner? no way and no how...it's dog eats dog...merry xmas...just stop pretending...go with it but be honest.

I disagree with this sweeping generalization. It certainly does not describe me, my family, nor most of my friends.