Campy chain question

[Dan Le foot]

Hi gang.
Yesterday I assisted a wrench friend of mine on moving components (Record 10) from my wife's Seven to her new (used) Ottrott.
My friend "broke" the chain by pushing out one of the pins (not the master link pin) with his standard Park tool. Took him about a minute to replace the chain on the Ottrott. No fuss.
Campy insist that we don't do this. Instead we are advised to pay about $30 for a new master link system which includes about 4 or 5 new links that we don't need.
What do you think?
Dan

[Xyzzy]

My wife would be worth a new chain.

[stevep]

bad idea.
think...busted chain in the middle of a long ride... the aggravation...
never mind the potential crash.
10 spd chains are somewhat demanding in installation..
this is a no no

[Xyzzy]

New chain for ~31 bux, delivered:

http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=L4045

Nothing wrong with Veloce, nobody will ever notice. And the new Ultra Narrow chains run a lot smoother and quieter too.

[Dave]

You just junked a chain. The master pin (HD-L) should have been removed and a wipperman connex link used to rejoin it.

The new Campy ultra narrow chain can't be beat. If you need a connector link get the shimano version of the wipperman connex link. The campy version is too wide.

[znfdl]

You can also use the new super link made for campy chains

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='0337-59'

[Erik.Lazdins]

this is one case that, in my experience and opinion, the campy system is the best method. I have used the super links and they held though "stretched" at a faster rate than the rest of the chain - net effect a new rear cluster. Being a fan of this forum- I've read the connex is not bulletproof. I think SteveP has it pegged here - Aggravation avoidance

I bought the campy chain tool and replace my chains every 2,500 - 3,000 miles.

Have done so since late 2004 without a hitch.

Thanks for reading - Erik

[Dan Le foot]

New chain for ~31 bux, delivered:

http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=L4045

Nothing wrong with Veloce, nobody will ever notice. And the new Ultra Narrow chains run a lot smoother and quieter too.

Thanks Xyzzy.
Record chain is on sale there for $44. No tax and shipping.
The bad news is the chain was less than 1000 miles old.
The good news is the chain and cassette have only 1000 miles so the new chain should work fine with the existing cassette.
Dan

[jchasse]

When installing a new 07 Campy chain, is it necessary to use the $80 uber Campy chain tool (No. UT-CN200) like Campy claims in their chain installation instructions??

I was talking to LickBike the other day when i ordered a chain, and they told me to use my Park tool - no worries.

[Serotta PETE]

SPOKES puts my chains on and I know he has used PARK and also the "offical" Campy tool. I replace my chain at 2500 miles for I like the "new" feel.

PETE

[Xyzzy]

You don't have to, but the tool makes it much easier. Make sure you drive the pin from the inside to the outside.

See pages 27-31:

http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225301_Ultra_Narrow_chain.pdf

Half the fun of playing with Campy is using the cool tools.

[Dave]

The campy tool is not required, but it is important to eliminate all the tension on the chain by draping it over the BB shell, while installing the pin from the left side. Folks who have neglected this step usually report that they broke the guide pin or had other problems. As long as there is not tension on the chain it's simple to install the pin with a Park CT-3.

[Dave]

this is one case that, in my experience and opinion, the campy system is the best method. I have used the super links and they held though "stretched" at a faster rate than the rest of the chain - net effect a new rear cluster. Being a fan of this forum- I've read the connex is not bulletproof. I think SteveP has it pegged here - Aggravation avoidance

I bought the campy chain tool and replace my chains every 2,500 - 3,000 miles.

Have done so since late 2004 without a hitch.

Thanks for reading - Erik

I'd like to know how you managed to measure the "stretch" on one link. Stretch is actually the wear between the pin and bushing formed into the inner sideplate. At the maximum allowable amount, the combined wear on both is only .0026 inch. Even if one link out of 100 was worn excessively, it would not cause premature cog failure.

The connex may not be bullet proof, but I've never had one fail. Most problems and failures are either due to installing the link backwards or using the wrong link, which is too tight or too losse of a fit.

A well maintained campy chain should be about 1/2 way through it's useable life at 2500-3000 miles. My latest Campy UN chain shows hardly any elongation and less than half of allowable roller dispalcement after 2500 miles.

[cw05]

A trick I use to detension the chain while putting the guide pin is to take a paper clip and bend it at 90 degree angles on the two ends (after straightening it). Then, place each curved end of the paper clip in the proximal and distal ends of the chain you are joining. Then you simply place the guide pin from inside to outside as previously described. After the pin is placed, simply remove the paper clip which places the chain under tension and ready to ride without having to handle it off the bb shell back onto the chainring.

[Erik.Lazdins]

I'd like to know how you managed to measure the "stretch" on one link. Stretch is actually the wear between the pin and bushing formed into the inner sideplate. At the maximum allowable amount, the combined wear on both is only .0026 inch. Even if one link out of 100 was worn excessively, it would not cause premature cog failure.

The connex may not be bullet proof, but I've never had one fail. Most problems and failures are either due to installing the link backwards or using the wrong link, which is too tight or too losse of a fit.

A well maintained campy chain should be about 1/2 way through it's useable life at 2500-3000 miles. My latest Campy UN chain shows hardly any elongation and less than half of allowable roller dispalcement after 2500 miles.

The new chain went on - the skipping started on the rear cluster's 15,16,17,18 cogs - the ones I use most. Other cogs skipped less frequently. That was my "measure" - the performance. The only difference was the addition of the superlink.
I do carry one in the saddlebag - just in case.

I wanted the superlink to work, but it did not do it for me.

I would be very happy to get 5-6,000 miles of life out of a chain without affecting the rear cluster, but I don't.

[Dan Le foot]

Thanks for the input, folks.
A new chain is in the mail.
One final question.
How does partially pushing a non joiner pin out and in again damage the chain?
I think I read on this board a while back that this was ok to do. (Maybe a different board) But don't try re-use the joiner pin/link.
Dan

[Dave]

Thanks for the input, folks.
A new chain is in the mail.
One final question.
How does partially pushing a non joiner pin out and in again damage the chain?
I think I read on this board a while back that this was ok to do. (Maybe a different board) But don't try re-use the joiner pin/link.
Dan

The pins on a flush-pin chain are heavily peened. Any pushing out of a pin immediately damages the peening. Why would you partially push out a pin? If you mean just pushing out one side, as normally done when breaking a chain, don't do it.

[Dave]

The new chain went on - the skipping started on the rear cluster's 15,16,17,18 cogs - the ones I use most. Other cogs skipped less frequently. That was my "measure" - the performance. The only difference was the addition of the superlink.
I do carry one in the saddlebag - just in case.

I wanted the superlink to work, but it did not do it for me.

I would be very happy to get 5-6,000 miles of life out of a chain without affecting the rear cluster, but I don't.

If you installed a brand new chain (with or without a superlink) and it skipped on several cogs, that's NORMAL cog wear. It had nothing to do with the connector link. If you installed a superlink on an old chain and it started skipping, then it was still due to the already worn cogs, which didn't mesh with the new link.

Most people have little idea when their chain really needs to be changed because they rely on a Park chain checker or similar tool. The best way to evaluate a chain is too measure the elongation with a precision scale and roller wear with calipers or a plug gage. While some chains do need replacement due to excessive elongation, others need replacement due to roller wear. My chains have shown 1/4 of the allowable elongation after 6000 miles, but the rollers were shot (IMO) with a distance between them of .235-.240, compared to .200-.205 when new. The OD of the rollers was worn about .006 inch and the ID was about .010 inch larger. This amount of wear is about 20-30 times the wear on the pins and bushings.

A chain that elongates to the limit in only 2500 miles is telling you that your lube, lube technique or frequency is inadequate.

The best way to extend cog life is to never place a totally new chain on worn cogs. Use 2-3 chains and rotate occasionally. A chain with as little as 300 miles of use may not skip on a worn cog, while a brand new chain will.

[Kevan]

(no real surprise there), one of our colleagues here joined me and others on a century ride and at that point where we couldn't be futher away from our homes or a well recognized road, his Campy-10 chain broke. We were out there near Nowheresville. I had never repaired a Campy chain before and thought from talk here in the past, they were particular in their repair. Well, in the process of patching the chain, I had to remove a destroyed link, but otherwise was able to make the chain whole and fully functional. I understand he replaced the chain later, before riding the bike again. Anyway my point is, the repair went rather easy, certainly no bigger deal than any other chain I've dealt with. Was I...he lucky?

I too use a third hand chain holder fashioned out of hanger wire, kept in my saddlebag at all times.

[Dave]

(no real surprise there), one of our colleagues here joined me and others on a century ride and at that point where we couldn't be futher away from our homes or a well recognized road, his Campy-10 chain broke. We were out there near Nowheresville. I had never repaired a Campy chain before and thought from talk here in the past, they were particular in their repair. Well, in the process of patching the chain, I had to remove a destroyed link, but otherwise was able to make the chain whole and fully functional. I understand he replaced the chain later, before riding the bike again. Anyway my point is, the repair went rather easy, certainly no bigger deal than any other chain I've dealt with. Was I...he lucky?

I too use a third hand chain holder fashioned out of hanger wire, kept in my saddlebag at all times.

There's little difference between any of the various brands of 10 speed chains - all are flush pin designs, including shimano 9. There's nothing to pushing out a pin, removing a link and rejoining. The problem is the chain may stay together for a ride or two, then break again, with the damaged peening and no protruding pin. Older protruding pin chains were not heavily peened and relied on the protrusion to help keep them together. Most of these chains could be broken apart anywhere and rejoined with the same pin. Even with many removals, the chance of reusing the same pin a second or third time was slim and probably wouldn't hurt a thing.

[Spinner]

I just installed a Sugino Cospea crank (50 & 36) on my Rambouillet, replacing a Chorus 9-speed (53 & 39). My Chorus drivetrain has less that 500 miles on it, so I decided to reuse the chain and remove 4 links for the right fit. I couldn't identify any particular master link pin as all looked the same, so I randomly pushed a pin. I rejoined the chain with a Sachs 9-speed link.

So, should I expect a break or what?

[Dave]

I just installed a Sugino Cospea crank (50 & 36) on my Rambouillet, replacing a Chorus 9-speed (53 & 39). My Chorus drivetrain has less that 500 miles on it, so I decided to reuse the chain and remove 4 links for the right fit. I couldn't identify any particular master link pin as all looked the same, so I randomly pushed a pin. I rejoined the chain with a Sachs 9-speed link.

So, should I expect a break or what?

If the chain is a 9 speed, then absolutely no problem. If it's a 10 then leaving the HD-L pin in place is not big deal, but the Sachs 9 speed link is too wide for a 10 speed chain.

FYI, the HD-L pin can be identified by looking at the left side. It should be the only pin with a hole in it (unless you've got a record hollow pin chain).

Also, it should only take the removal of 2 links, (1 inch) to make this crank switch, unless the chain was too long to begin with. The correct way to set the chain length is in the little/little combination. The chain should be the maximum length that maintains some tension on the lower section of chain and does not allow the chain to rub on the upper pulley guide tab. Any shorter just reduces the RD's wrap capacity.

[Xyzzy]

The correct way to set the chain length is in the little/little combination. The chain should be the maximum length that maintains some tension on the lower section of chain and does not allow the chain to rub on the upper pulley guide tab. Any shorter just reduces the RD's wrap capacity.Dave: Something I have wondered:

I size my chain using the big/big combo. For my chainrings and cassette that is 104 links. I fudged up to 106 links to be safe. The transmission shifts flawlessly, but in crossed over situations it is a bit noisy sometimes. (I know not to spend all day crossed over.)

Now, when I put the transmission into the small/small, there is a huge gap between the chain and the guide tab. I could probably put 3 more inches of chain in there. This is most likely because my smallest cog is a 14. I also always run the same cassette.

So, would giving the system more chain reduce chain noise when crossed over? Would it reduce tension too much? I read (r.b.t.) that higher chain tensions are more efficient. Finally, would it "slow down" the shifting? Because right now it is very fast and precise. (I run the B screw thing all the way in too.)

I'd just try it out but the chain is new and I'd hate to blow $50 just to find out that it makes no difference.

Oh yeah: I also read (Shimano documentation?) that you want the pulleys to be vertically aligned when in the big/small. Mine are. I run Campy though.

Edit: Sorry for the crappy photo quality. The first is 39x14, then 53x14 and finally 53x23.

[Dave]

Dave: Something I have wondered:

I size my chain using the big/big combo. For my chainrings and cassette that is 104 links. I fudged up to 106 links to be safe. The transmission shifts flawlessly, but in crossed over situations it is a bit noisy sometimes. (I know not to spend all day crossed over.)

Now, when I put the transmission into the small/small, there is a huge gap between the chain and the guide tab. I could probably put 3 more inches of chain in there. This is most likely because my smallest cog is a 14. I also always run the same cassette.

So, would giving the system more chain reduce chain noise when crossed over? Would it reduce tension too much? I read (r.b.t.) that higher chain tensions are more efficient. Finally, would it "slow down" the shifting? Because right now it is very fast and precise. (I run the B screw thing all the way in too.)

I'd just try it out but the chain is new and I'd hate to blow $50 just to find out that it makes no difference.

Oh yeah: I also read (Shimano documentation?) that you want the pulleys to be vertically aligned when in the big/small. Mine are. I run Campy though.

Edit: Sorry for the crappy photo quality. The first is 39x14, then 53x14 and finally 53x23.

I can't see much from the pictures, but I doubt that you could add 3 inches of chain to any setup, since 3 inches equals 12 teeth worth of wrap.

It's OK to set the chain length with the big/big combo, but it's not as exact when to quit shortening the chain.

As for the cross chaining noise, what combo are we talking about? The shorter chain will have no effect except in the big ring and next to largest cog. The big ring and largest cog should never be used (assuming a double crank).

You're going to need a new chain sometime. If you want to set the chain length correctly, buy a new one and a connex link. Use some old links to temporarily lengthen the old chain to the correct length. Then make the new chain the correct length and install it. Use it for awhile and see if it you notice any difference. Then you can decide whether to remove the temporary links and rejoin the old chain with the connex link or junk it.

[Xyzzy]

I can't see much from the pictures, but I doubt that you could add 3 inches of chain to any setup, since 3 inches equals 12 teeth worth of wrap.You mean 6 teeth, right?

As for the cross chaining noise, what combo are we talking about? The shorter chain will have no effect except in the big ring and next to largest cog. The big ring and largest cog should never be used (assuming a double crank).It only makes noise when I use the big ring and go into the biggest 4 cogs. The chain angle appears severe, but I read on R.B.T. that the chain angle isn't that important for efficiency. The chain isn't hitting anything, it just "rumbles" a bit. Fortunately, with a 23, 22, 21, 20 low end, I rarely need to go into that range with the big ring. My theory is since both the front and rear are so big, there is less "free area" of chain to flex so the angle is magnified. (Does that make sense? Kinda like longer versus shorter chainstays. On a MTB you can use all the gears in the back because the chainstays are so long. Or on a recumbent that has 2 chains put together. Maybe a larger front and rear gear reduces the "effective" chainstay length, because the chain can't begin to bend until it leaves the cog?)

You're going to need a new chain sometime. If you want to set the chain length correctly, buy a new one and a connex link. Use some old links to temporarily lengthen the old chain to the correct length. Then make the new chain the correct length and install it. Use it for awhile and see if it you notice any difference. Then you can decide whether to remove the temporary links and rejoin the old chain with the connex link or junk it.I'm averaging 5-7k miles a chain right now. And when I replace them they aren't elongated. They just get loose laterally and clatter a bit. So I'll have to put off experimenting for a while. Damn Campy and their long wearing components!

I have a pal whose chain severely hits his guide tab. He rarely hits it because it would be a 30x12 gear or something on his triple and he knows to avoid that combo. Even with all that slack his bike appears to shift properly.

I'd be curious to know how much slack everyone runs with their chains.

PS: Check out the weird sizing instructions on page 25:

http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225301_Ultra_Narrow_chain.pdf

[Dave]

[QUOTE=Xyzzy]You mean 6 teeth, right?

NO, I mean 12T. Although the pitch is 1/2 inch, the chain only wraps half way around a cog, so 4T = 1 inch. If you're adjusting chain length and want to see what a 1 inch shorter chain is like, shift to a cog 4 teeth larger.