It’s official, the bike industry has lost its way.

[Clancy]

I saw a 2020 Cannondale Quick today, a typical flat bar, upright, hybrid bike. Price tag of $1,000. It had flat mount hydraulic disc brakes and a front thur axle.

I saw a 2020 Electra Townie today, a typical ballon tire beach cruiser. It had hydraulic disc brakes. (With a Shimano Tourney derailleur)

I am struggling to find the right words to express the absurdity. No argument that hydraulic disc brakes offer better performance but these are two bike models that absolutely do not need discs and will only complicate the maintenance for the end user not to mention the added costs to the bike, added maintenance costs and although minimal, impact on the environment. To what end?

The engineering and development costs surely could have been put to better use by the companies involved.

I just don’t get it.

[Jaybee]

The end user can either watch a YouTube video and figure it out or they can bring it back to the place they bought it from, which is what 90% of hybrid/cruiser owners were going to do even if they had caliper brakes.

[the bottle ride]

Do you really think the person who is going to buy this bike will bleed his/her own brakes?

I don’t think so.

[tourmalet]

There's a good case to be made for disc brakes on commuters. I hate the initial ineffectiveness of rim brakes in wet weather, and I've had a few close calls because of it.

If you want discs, then the thru-axle is a no-brainer to guarantee disc-to-caliper alignment. Hydraulic vs. cable on the other hand is a luxury, but if you're willing to pay $1K for a commuter, it's a reasonable upgrade.

[charliedid]

I fail to see the problem.

[dpdan93]

Give it a rest already... These disc bashing threads are getting old

[Cornfed]

Disc brakes for wet weather. Thru axles to keep the rotors in line (probably easier for casual riders to set correctly, as well).

And complex components for casual bikes makes a ton of business sense to me. LBSs are a lot like auto dealerships these days - they make their money on service, not sales. The sooner the customer is back for a tune-up, the better.

[cinema]

regardless of your opinion on this, if you need more than a V brake in any kind of weather on a roadish/hybrid/townie, it's not the components that are the problem.

[zmalwo]

make sense on a commuter since you have to stop for lights and unexpected events quite often. A disc brake in rain can help with that.

[tsarpepe]

That's the same logic as buying a mammoth SUV because it will be safer in collision. The fact that disc brakes have some advantages in some situations in which the user may find herself some day doesn't mean that all bikes have to be designed with disc brakes.

[fa63]

I wish every bike I worked on had hydro discs with thru axles... Better braking, little maintenance, and once adjusted correctly, the thru axles keep everything in the same place consistently (try that with quick release skewers).

I can't imagine riding my commuter e-bike with V-brakes; I would have crashed several times already when I have had to grab a handful for emergency stops while commuting. And I am still on the same pads after two years (2,500 miles) and haven't had to touch the hydro discs.

[vincenz]

I couldn’t care less. They can pry rim brakes out of my cold dead hands.

[ergott]

The number of times I've seen bikes like those with the brake pads misaligned I'm sure mechanics are very happy to see discs. Other than squeezing lever with the wheel out of frame there's not really anything else the average user can screw up with hydro disc. They are typically ridden in nice weather so I'm sure that brake system will be maintenance free for the life of the bike.

[ergott]

Inexpensive rim brakes are notorious for having uneven spring tension resulting in one pad rubbing the rim. Compound that with rims that typically go out of true and you have a poor riding experience. Thru and disc eliminates most of those problems with little tradeoff

[prototoast]

These look like great bikes for the right person.

[bigbill]

I would have loved to have disc brakes when I commuted in the PNW. The Avid cantilevers I had were terrible in the wet and would wake up every dog in the county when dry. My Coconino DRR has hydraulic disc that I set up in 2017 and have remained perfect. It's just not that big of a deal.

[berserk87]

Give it a rest already... These disc bashing threads are getting old

Then don't read them. And quit trying to shut other people down. It's a discussion forum. Let folks discuss. If you don't like the topic, move to one that you do enjoy.

[YesNdeed]

It's been a long time time coming. I remember perusing a bike shop in San Francisco, circa 2004. A heavyset, die hard commuter type guy told me to make the investment in disc brakes because they perform far better in the rain, making hard stops after steep urban descents. Truth is, he's right. Necessary for your average commute or beach cruise? No. But like it or not, the consumer dollar controls much of the market, not my opinion.

The "cool" factor alone sells bikes. Admittedly, the 90s era Fuji Finest I bought for $100 in February of 2009 could have served me longer than it did, but I don't regret upgrading to a CAAD8 R5000 shortly thereafter in May of that year. It's been one upgrade after the other since then. And still, not giving up my rim brakes.

[rkhatibi]

In the case of the Quick there are EIGHT versions from $1400 to $450. https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Products/ProductCategory.aspx?nid=e5bdf4e2-1dc3-454b-86a9-b13aff601fab

Can't say I see any over investment in engineering when it's mostly the same frame with component changes across the line to address different customers.

[JSL]

There's a good case to be made for disc brakes on commuters. I hate the initial ineffectiveness of rim brakes in wet weather, and I've had a few close calls because of it.

If you want discs, then the thru-axle is a no-brainer to guarantee disc-to-caliper alignment. Hydraulic vs. cable on the other hand is a luxury, but if you're willing to pay $1K for a commuter, it's a reasonable upgrade.

This sums it up.

Phased out my rim brakes on my around town/commuter bikes over the years and don't regret it at all.

[FlashUNC]

Discs make more sense on commuters than high zoot road bikes.

[Pegoready]

The auto industry has lost its way. The average driver doesn't need power steering, anti lock brakes, and automatic transmissions. Get off my lawn!

[sonicCows]

My guess: discs are a very comprehensible upgrade feature for beginner cyclists–an easy way for bike manufacturers and shops to justify a premium in the product lines they are selling at full retail. If a new cyclist is telling their normie friends they spent $600-1000 on a new bike, at least they can say they got discs/hydraulic discs over the rim/Vs on normie bikes. Now I personally don't think hydro discs make sense/are necessary for most cyclists but it's also the next upgrade up from cable discs. Plus, it'll lead to more labor costs for bike shops to capture.

[mt2u77]

You’re overthinking. It doesn’t have to make sense, it has to sell a bike.

[ChainNoise]

You’re overthinking. It doesn’t have to make sense, it has to sell a bike.

This x100000

Why do you think most manufacturers keep changing **** and try to make a new standard? So they can pry money from your hands into their pockets. That's what it's all about.

[rain dogs]

discs make more sense on commuters than high zoot road bikes.

this.

[ernmony]

The auto industry has lost its way. The average driver doesn't need power steering, anti lock brakes, and automatic transmissions. Get off my lawn!

...plus no fuel!

[oldpotatoe]

"They" said the same thing about rear ders, index shifting, clipless pedals, mtb suspension, and now disc brakes. My granddaughters $600 Cleary has wet disc brakes....like the guy in the shimano booth said, 'it's for selling'...
I'm glad as a former bike shop lizard I don't have to-
-Work on 'em
-Sell 'em
-Use 'em

But they are here, for good or ill. I remember when a price point MTB had a pretty decent front fork and then crappy everything else to get to that price point. I suspect low end bikes with wet discs are no different...
BUT, like when Campag couldn't sell a square taper crank and went all in on external BB cranks in 2007, rim brakes still work but that's not what the buying public wants, for whatever reason....
oh well...:bike:

[Heisenberg]

what a curiously tiny hill to choose to die on, re: the industry losing its way.

[Burnette]

I saw a 2020 Cannondale Quick today, a typical flat bar, upright, hybrid bike. Price tag of $1,000. It had flat mount hydraulic disc brakes and a front thur axle.

I saw a 2020 Electra Townie today, a typical ballon tire beach cruiser. It had hydraulic disc brakes. (With a Shimano Tourney derailleur)

I am struggling to find the right words to express the absurdity. No argument that hydraulic disc brakes offer better performance but these are two bike models that absolutely do not need discs and will only complicate the maintenance for the end user not to mention the added costs to the bike, added maintenance costs and although minimal, impact on the environment. To what end?

The engineering and development costs surely could have been put to better use by the companies involved.

I just don’t get it.

I'll explain it. See, when it gets cold, the skies turn grey and when people spend more time indoors than out, their demeanor changes.

Small insignificant things that they don't agree with or like become irritants. And that thing that is just silly and small becomes rather large, it consumes thoughts, time and energy.

And recreational sports are good fodder for this angst. It's easy to throw stones at equipment like Golf clubs, bullets and shoes.

The funny thing is that we don't turn around and look back at ourselves in the mirror. You're standing there with an egg shaped blob in your head, a risque outfit of spandex and clown shoes. Hardly a person to take serious about judging someone else's buying habits.

This thread is early, meaning it will probably be a rough winter.

[slambers3]

Painting with a broad brush here, but based on my observations from behind the service counter:
A lot of folks use their hybrids for commuting, and commuters typically encounter a wide range of weather conditions. In virtually all weather conditions, hydraulic brakes offer better power, control, and modulation with less hand effort. Cannondale has decided that adding disc brakes to that price point would be value-added for that customer, and my experience supports this. OP may be injecting a lot of his own bias into his argument with the “ unnecessary complication” comment or whatever, and ignores the fact that a lot of people don’t work on their bikes, they simply ride them.
I worked at a shop maybe 5 years ago that sold A LOT of Townies. My parents own two of them. Our typical townie customer would buy a pair, along with some sort of rear mounted trunk/hitch rack, and head off to the local bike path. These are not the “repair a flat by the side of the road” types. Heck, a lot of them would load both bikes on the rack and bring them in for a service check every time they needed the tires pumped up. For someone that would almost never take a front wheel off the bike, and performs none of their own maintenance, wouldn’t you want the easiest lever feel and strongest braking power available?

Additionally, I’d argue that a properly adjusted thru-axle/disc brake system is at least as easy for the layperson to remove and re-install wheels, as would be a similarly adjusted linear pull rim-brake system.

[weisan]

I agree with slamber pal.

The boat has long sailed, the course is irreversible.

[dpdan93]

Then don't read them. And quit trying to shut other people down. It's a discussion forum. Let folks discuss. If you don't like the topic, move to one that you do enjoy.

it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm voicing my opinion like any one else here. Maybe a little open-mindedness would refresh this forum.

[oldpotatoe]

it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm voicing my opinion like any one else here. Maybe a little open-mindedness would refresh this forum.
Give it a rest already... These disc bashing threads are getting old


:):eek:

[oldpotatoe]

I'll explain it. See, when it gets cold, the skies turn grey and when people spend more time indoors than out, their demeanor changes.

Small insignificant things that they don't agree with or like become irritants. And that thing that is just silly and small becomes rather large, it consumes thoughts, time and energy.

And recreational sports are good fodder for this angst. It's easy to throw stones at equipment like Golf clubs, bullets and shoes.

The funny thing is that we don't turn around and look back at ourselves in the mirror. You're standing there with an egg shaped blob in your head, a risque outfit of spandex and clown shoes. Hardly a person to take serious about judging someone else's buying habits.

This thread is early, meaning it will probably be a rough winter.

"bullets"??
Yup, I guess...wandering around a couple of forums...certainly easy with golf clubs....:)

[peanutgallery]

Ah, yes. With this thread, winter is officially here. Got my Epic pass and new boots/skis ready to go

Roadies:)

[Clancy]

I did not present my point correctly. It’s not about discs vs rim brakes!

I recently attended a training seminar put on by the local Cannondale rep. He was introducing the “ all new” 2020 Bad Habit full suspension MTB. In describing the “all new” part the rep said that Cannondale’s engineers discovered that as the bike sizes changed that the action of the suspension changed unless the positioning of the suspension mounts were also changed. In other words, the suspension pivots/angles/actions were engineered around a specific size bike. But as the frame changed dimensions, unless the pivot points and angles also changed, the action of the suspension would be different then designed.

I was dumbfounded! In 2019, with all the available engineering technology available to a large company like Cannondale they just now figured out that as a frame changes dimensions, unless the suspension points also change relative to the frame, the action of the suspension is not consistent throughout all sizes. This seems to me to be engineering 101.

My point with the (to me) absurdity of disc brakes and thur axles on basic hybrid bikes is where the bike industry is putting their R&D dollars. It’s similar to the rabbit hole manufacturers went down when touting “women specific geometry “ only to quietly drop all such a few years later after realizing it was all based on outdated and limited data.

There is no question that hydraulic brakes perform better. There is also no question that rim brakes perform absolutely fine for most riders.

This is not about disc brakes vs rim brakes. It’s about manufacturers designing and producing bicycles that are appropriate in terms of price and functionality for the targeted buyers.

Hydraulic disc brakes on a bike with a Shimano Tourney rear derailleur? That’s putting manufacturing dollars to the best use? That really has the end user’s best interests in mind?

My point is that some (large and influential) bike companies are pushing debatable and questionable technology over sound engineering principals. I was using those two bikes as examples of what I see as hype over functionality.

[chris7ed]

Hybrid bike riders will finally have a quick release system that works the way they want them to work

[gemship]

One more vote for hydro disc and thru axles. I would also like to add that I'm enjoying that as well as five inches of suspension travel front and rear as well as 3" wide tubeless tires. Every one of those is a game changer and yes I am talking about my full suspension mtn. bike that cost 2k. Although that bike is made to handle and tame some serious single track it's lovely to ride anywhere and it does weigh a hefty 30 pounds but so what as it's a magic carpet ride that requires so little maintenance. Like Ergott posted, you don't have to worry about less than true rims and I would further with some tire sealant flats seem to be a thing of the past.

My only arguement is why can't they put those hydro disc brakes on a bike and sell it for 600$...? I still think laying down 1k is a high price point for a beginner/occasional cyclist, commuter.


PS- I also love the single chain ring up front with the 11 speed cassette in the back. This bike really is a bike you can mostly hop on with minimal tuning. I keep mine inside and ultra clean. If I don't ride off road or in wet weather it just doesn't seem to wear out. Other than adding some air to the tires and occasional chain clean/ lubing and lubing the dropper post because it has one. That's it.

[Aaron O]

There are so many bike options at this point, and so much information out there for anyone who wants it, that anyone can find the right tool for them.

So I'm pretty new to disc brakes...when I was with my mechanic asking about bleeding and fluids, he said people make way too big a deal out of that, most bikes rarely need to be bled, and you almost never need to change fluid.

Online - it seems like everyone does it every hundred miles (exaggerating).

1. How often do I actually need to change brake fluid? Is it time, miles, or both?

2. Do I need to bleed the brakes if everything feels fine?

[gemship]

I did not present my point correctly. It’s not about discs vs rim brakes!

I recently attended a training seminar put on by the local Cannondale rep. He was introducing the “ all new” 2020 Bad Habit full suspension MTB. In describing the “all new” part the rep said that Cannondale’s engineers discovered that as the bike sizes changed that the action of the suspension changed unless the positioning of the suspension mounts were also changed. In other words, the suspension pivots/angles/actions were engineered around a specific size bike. But as the frame changed dimensions, unless the pivot points and angles also changed, the action of the suspension would be different then designed.

I was dumbfounded! In 2019, with all the available engineering technology available to a large company like Cannondale they just now figured out that as a frame changes dimensions, unless the suspension points also change relative to the frame, the action of the suspension is not consistent throughout all sizes. This seems to me to be engineering 101.

My point with the (to me) absurdity of disc brakes and thur axles on basic hybrid bikes is where the bike industry is putting their R&D dollars. It’s similar to the rabbit hole manufacturers went down when touting “women specific geometry “ only to quietly drop all such a few years later after realizing it was all based on outdated and limited data.

There is no question that hydraulic brakes perform better. There is also no question that rim brakes perform absolutely fine for most riders.

This is not about disc brakes vs rim brakes. It’s about manufacturers designing and producing bicycles that are appropriate in terms of price and functionality for the targeted buyers.

Hydraulic disc brakes on a bike with a Shimano Tourney rear derailleur? That’s putting manufacturing dollars to the best use? That really has the end user’s best interests in mind?

My point is that some (large and influential) bike companies are pushing debatable and questionable technology over sound engineering principals. I was using those two bikes as examples of what I see as hype over functionality.

I see the sense in what you say but now that the tech is out and mass produced why not? Maybe I haven't a clue but I think hyrdo brakes can be made mass produced as cheaply as rim brakes but yeah if your gonna step up the brakes and make it work right with a thru axel then why not step up the shifting? It's a money making racket...

[gemship]

There are so many bike options at this point, and so much information out there for anyone who wants it, that anyone can find the right tool for them.

So I'm pretty new to disc brakes...when I was with my mechanic asking about bleeding and fluids, he said people make way too big a deal out of that, most bikes rarely need to be bled, and you almost never need to change fluid.

Online - it seems like everyone does it every hundred miles (exaggerating).

1. How often do I actually need to change brake fluid? Is it time, miles, or both?

2. Do I need to bleed the brakes if everything feels fine?

Yeah I got my hydro bike a year ago and I have noticed it feels a bit spongier at the levers but I also noticed that I have adapted to that feel. Brakes still bite the same and offer one finger stopping performance if you squeeze hard enough. In fact I would say they feel better now than when new but maybe I'm just more used to it? Of course there are people that ride way more than me and clean their stuff all the time and love to keep the bikes in like new operation and probably subscribe to the online hype about bleeding brakes.

I own a 2006 GSXR1000 sportbike, bought used nearly 5 years ago and I have never bled the brakes but I have confidence that they work fine as the pressure is there. Granted I don't go racing it, entering chicanes and 100mph but I do scrub off half my speed entering highway exit off ramps in a hurry.:p

[benb]

I think everything is just flying right over your head with a giant "Whoosh!" if you can't understand this.. the bike industry is not missing anything here, you are.

The target riders for these bikes:
- Take their bike to a shop for almost all maintenance, even flat tires
- Don't give a hoot about weight
- Value comfort a lot, and have religiously held beliefs about what makes comfort that are 100% opposite of what everyone here knows is the real truth
- Don't shift a lot, sometimes they don't understand how the gears work

If you look at the available brake systems and you're open minded and actually have experience with owning/maintaining all the types you know:

- Hydro Disc Brakes look the most intimidating to work on at first
- Hydro Disc Brakes require new tools that scare traditional roadies but not mechanics
- Once you know what you're doing with hydro brakes the adjustment/bleed whatever on quality sets is pretty straightforward. There's not much back and forth on adjustments.
- Hydro Disc Brakes actually have by FAR the longest intervals between maintenance
- Hydro Disc brakes keep the most consistent performance between maintenance

So if you put these together the bike companies know for the person who doesn't do their own work the hydro disc brakes work most consistently for the longest period of time and keep the rider safe & happy.

The elitist mentality that rim brakes are always best and canti are better than Vs with roadies is generally hilarious when applied to regular people. Cantis and Vs require maintenance way more frequently to keep them working at peak performance as the pads never stay in alignment as they wear. In the real world where the rider can't do the maintenance the actual performance of Canti/V-brake equipped bikes has got to be on average far far worse than these new bikes that come equipped with hydro discs.

Now the really simple solution is the normal dual pivot road calipers.. they really are amazing. But this crowd will never be convinced to ride tires small enough to use that style of brake. And most of the long reach road calipers are fairly terrible IMO compared to the short reach ones that work best with tires < 28mm.

Bikes are not that special.. arguing against this is like arguing you want a car that still has rim brakes.

[charliedid]

I think everything is just flying right over your head with a giant "Whoosh!" if you can't understand this.. the bike industry is not missing anything here, you are.

The target riders for these bikes:
- Take their bike to a shop for almost all maintenance, even flat tires
- Don't give a hoot about weight
- Value comfort a lot, and have religiously held beliefs about what makes comfort that are 100% opposite of what everyone here knows is the real truth
- Don't shift a lot, sometimes they don't understand how the gears work

If you look at the available brake systems and you're open minded and actually have experience with owning/maintaining all the types you know:

- Hydro Disc Brakes look the most intimidating to work on at first
- Hydro Disc Brakes require new tools that scare traditional roadies but not mechanics
- Once you know what you're doing with hydro brakes the adjustment/bleed whatever on quality sets is pretty straightforward. There's not much back and forth on adjustments.
- Hydro Disc Brakes actually have by FAR the longest intervals between maintenance
- Hydro Disc brakes keep the most consistent performance between maintenance

So if you put these together the bike companies know for the person who doesn't do their own work the hydro disc brakes work most consistently for the longest period of time and keep the rider safe & happy.

The elitist mentality that rim brakes are always best and canti are better than Vs with roadies is generally hilarious when applied to regular people. Cantis and Vs require maintenance way more frequently to keep them working at peak performance as the pads never stay in alignment as they wear. In the real world where the rider can't do the maintenance the actual performance of Canti/V-brake equipped bikes has got to be on average far far worse than these new bikes that come equipped with hydro discs.

Now the really simple solution is the normal dual pivot road calipers.. they really are amazing. But this crowd will never be convinced to ride tires small enough to use that style of brake. And most of the long reach road calipers are fairly terrible IMO compared to the short reach ones that work best with tires < 28mm.

Bikes are not that special.. arguing against this is like arguing you want a car that still has rim brakes.

Bravo!

I could not agree more and thanks for writing this.

[benb]

There are so many bike options at this point, and so much information out there for anyone who wants it, that anyone can find the right tool for them.

So I'm pretty new to disc brakes...when I was with my mechanic asking about bleeding and fluids, he said people make way too big a deal out of that, most bikes rarely need to be bled, and you almost never need to change fluid.

Online - it seems like everyone does it every hundred miles (exaggerating).

1. How often do I actually need to change brake fluid? Is it time, miles, or both?

2. Do I need to bleed the brakes if everything feels fine?

Online is indeed exaggerating like crazy. Particularly if you get a set with Sintered or Semi-Metallic pads you will go a really really long time before any maintenance is needed.

Depending on your use it could be years between pad changes & you might go 5 years without needing a bleed.

I've never had to replace all the fluid in a hydro system on my MTB. The first set I never had to bleed once after initial install. The current set I have is 7 years old and I've had to bleed them once.

Most of the online exaggeration about disc maintenance seems to come from:
- Cross guys riding early Avid cable discs, which were very fiddly compared to good hydros
- Use of the organic (faster wearing) pads
- Riding in some particular region with just the right kind of sand to completely destroy the organic pads once they were contaminated.

[unterhausen]

I have wondered why TA wasn't put on low-end hybrids a long time ago because of the lawyers. I was looking at hybrids for a family member and the cheapest ones had discs and QR. I know QR is cheaper, but that's nuts. Most people that own hybrids don't know how to make a QR work and aren't going to remember if taught. The DT Swiss style TA is perfect for those people. It works exactly like they would expect.

[benb]

That thing about braking vs shifting quality.

I really think the usage pattern of brakes vs shifting parts for these riders is completely reversed from us, they barely ever shift but probably brake more.

If you ride 10mph on a MUT for 20 miles you can do that without a single shift on a lot of MUTs. But you might be stopping 20x at crossings. Ride the same 20 miles on a hilly route that we might choose and you might shift 100 times but only come to a complete stop once or twice.

[Aaron O]

Online is indeed exaggerating like crazy. Particularly if you get a set with Sintered or Semi-Metallic pads you will go a really really long time before any maintenance is needed.

Depending on your use it could be years between pad changes & you might go 5 years without needing a bleed.

I've never had to replace all the fluid in a hydro system on my MTB. The first set I never had to bleed once after initial install. The current set I have is 7 years old and I've had to bleed them once.

Most of the online exaggeration about disc maintenance seems to come from:
- Cross guys riding early Avid cable discs, which were very fiddly compared to good hydros
- Use of the organic (faster wearing) pads
- Riding in some particular region with just the right kind of sand to completely destroy the organic pads once they were contaminated.

Gratzie signor! Appreciate the tips here...I don't have any crazy sand, and they've always felt fine.

As to your other (excellent) post - I do have one suggestion for a great brake that rarely gets used/mentioned - the brazed on center pull. Also great for larger road tires (and anything over 28 is large to me).

As far as dual pivot...my favorite combo is dual pivot front, single rear. It's a great mix of power/modulation. I have my favorite bike set up that way, and it's rad. (25c tires)

[berserk87]

it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm voicing my opinion like any one else here. Maybe a little open-mindedness would refresh this forum.

Yeah. Old Potatoe pointed out the obvious in his response (which are actually a reposting of your posts).

So open mindedness means trying to stop other folks from discussing stuff that you don't like. Which is, like, the opposite of that, but well...

Ok.

[chiasticon]

I would actually argue that hybrids and townie bikes are one of the best places for hydraulic disc brakes. some of the people who buy such things aren't exactly in the best shape. throw a 300 lb person on a 25 lb hybrid and send 'em down a hill, they're gonna need some powerful brakes.

not saying a V-brake wouldn't stop them, just that there's nothing wrong with more braking power in this case.

[gemship]

Yeah. Old Potatoe pointed out the obvious in his response (which are actually a reposting of your posts).

So open mindedness means trying to stop other folks from discussing stuff that you don't like. Which is, like, the opposite of that, but well...

Ok.

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

[Burnette]

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

So you're saying "my toys cost too much, they could make less profit and sell it to me cheaper!".

Well, that's everybody who ever bought anything ain't it? :)

[Ken Robb]

Yation

I own a 2006 GSXR1000 sportbike, bought used nearly 5 years ago and I have never bled the brakes but I have confidence that they work fine as the pressure is there. Granted I don't go racing it, entering chicanes and 100mph but I do scrub off half my speed entering highway exit off ramps in a hurry.:p

One reason to bleed brakes on cars/motorcycles is so the fluid doesn't absorb so much water that it will generate steam and bubbles under the conditions you plan to ride. Racers who generate huge amounts of heat using maximum braking in competition may need to bleed their brakes between races or heats. A commuter might never brake so hard and long that he boils his fluid and his brakes may feel fine after 3 years. The catch is that the water is still accumulating in his brakes fluid and by then in a concentration high enough to cause corrosion inside the components and that will require pretty expensive repairs. I have heard of guys with internal corrosion of calipers who applied the brakes and found they wouldn't release. So change/bleed brake fluid at least every 3 years and sleep well. :)

OTOH I think that bikes that use mineral oil rather than hydroscopic DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid may be immune to water accumulating in the fluid?

[benb]

I always did all the maintenance on my Sportbike (Suzuki/Honda for me and I did a friend's triumph once) brakes on schedule cause safety of course... but...

IME street use is using like 1% of the brake capability out of the box on a bike like a GSX-R. The brakes on a bike like that are good enough to go right into a high level amateur race right out of the box and a typical race weekend would not wear out the pads or require work. I think the maintenance interval for brakes on my last Honda was 12,000 miles.. I'd change the pads on the interval and they weren't worn out even with track days included. "Fast Street Riding" is generally considerably below "First time track day" for pace & wear on brakes and most of the supersport bikes have brakes good enough for racing right out of the box. They still get brake work for safety when they get turned into racebikes but that's more about safety AFAICT than performance (braided lines & safety wire, etc..)

I never had any trouble with any motorcycle I had at the track in terms of brakes.. the brake systems on those bikes are flat out unbelievable.

I feel like some of the MTB systems are almost that good too. But I think they are all a bit of a PITA to maintain compared to motorcycles. All the tools and such just work better on motorcycles. The fittings are a little bit bigger.. the bicycle manufacturers are so obsessed with a few grams here or there they make the maintenance a little more annoying.

[madsciencenow]

I enjoyed reading through this thread and learned a thing or two along the way regarding disc brakes and TAs.

One thing that made me chuckle is the point about how disc brakes are a sales tool and a marketing ploy to sell bikes, which ironically is why I clicked on this discussion to begin with (I.e. great title for a post that guarantees I will click and read).

I don’t know if engineering could be used for better or not but ultimately C-dale and other manufacturers make a decision about how and where to deploy resources based on their business strategy is my assumption. Perhaps the underlying calculus is varied but ultimately it seems like the goal would be how you impact the bottom line in as positive a way as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buddybikes]

What about hydro cable activated brakes? Are these any good? Are they worth upgrade from regular cable activated? Would assume maintence would be simpler.

[batman1425]

Hydro brakes actually offer a significant increase in accessibility for casual or new riders. This price point is a good one for them. I hear lots of feedback from customers about how much the like the light feel of the lever and the confidence they will always have the ability to apply the brakes regardless of their hand strength or how tired they are at the end of a ride. Most of this group is used to the largely ceremonial brakes of the past on low end bikes. Are modern well adjusted linear pull brakes a big improvement? Yes. But put your average rider on a linear pull vs a hydro bike and IME, 90% of the time, the pick the hydro for the reasons above.

[benb]

What about hydro cable activated brakes? Are these any good? Are they worth upgrade from regular cable activated? Would assume maintence would be simpler.

Nope worse... you get cable maintenance + hydro maintenance. They are finicky/more complicated. But they get the job done on road bikes where the brifters are an issue.

I don't think anyone ever made cable operated hydro discs for MTB... Shimano made some integrated Brifters for rim brake MTBs back in the day, I had some XT ones, clearly a weight weenie thing at that point.. but usually MTBs have separate shifters/levers so it never made any sense to compromise with cables cause the levers weren't worth a lot of money... but I'm probably wrong and they did exist at one point.

No one has mentioned it.. there's no housing in hydraulic lines to corrode and start fighting the calipers from opening up when you release the lever. Another maintenance item that goes away.

[makoti]

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

I spent $300 for my first sort of real bike in 1985. That's $715 today. It had tech on it from 40 years earlier. I don't really think $1K is that far out of line. Maybe a bit high, but for what you are getting? Might be a bargain.

[Jaybee]

Shimano M-3xx series brakes are way heavier than XT or whatever and they have longer (i.e. not one-finger) levers and look chunky, but they stop plenty fine, even for moderate trail use and are bombproof. They are $30/wheel at Jenson for you and me - i'm sure it costs next to nothing for Cdale to spec hydro as OEM in 2019. If all you're doing is commuting, you're probably looking at 3-4 years between pad changes and 5+ years for a bleed on hydro.

I also second the notion above that thru-axles make a ton of sense from an intuitive/liability perspective. Anyone else remember the early days of disc brakes when they would try to pull the QR front wheel out of the dropouts? And I'm sure everyone who's spend time in a shop has gotten to show someone that a QR uses a cam to tighten, and isn't just something you screw until it's tight. Which is ironically how a TA works.

[cgolvin]

You're standing there with an egg shaped blob in your head

Maybe the egg shaped blobs in our heads account for the wildly varying opinions and intermittent rants on the forum. (Yes, I realize it was a typo.)

[Aaron O]

This isn't really worth a personal insult fest gents.

[johnniecakes]

Here is my take on this and most things discussed here. Ride what ever you like. Me, I am a rim brake guy with 23 or 25 wide tires. But if you ride something else that's OK with me. Your choices about bikes will not rock my world.

[dancinkozmo]

Didn't think your bike was complicated enough? soon you can get a 13 speed system with 3 chains, 4 sprockets/cogs, and 2 cassettes. All in a large housing that significantly limits suspension design, shock, and water bottle placement. Everyone wins!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-gearbox-in-the-works-files-patents-on-hybrid-roller-chain-sequential-shifting-transmission.html

[oldpotatoe]

I did not present my point correctly. It’s not about discs vs rim brakes!

I recently attended a training seminar put on by the local Cannondale rep. He was introducing the “ all new” 2020 Bad Habit full suspension MTB. In describing the “all new” part the rep said that Cannondale’s engineers discovered that as the bike sizes changed that the action of the suspension changed unless the positioning of the suspension mounts were also changed. In other words, the suspension pivots/angles/actions were engineered around a specific size bike. But as the frame changed dimensions, unless the pivot points and angles also changed, the action of the suspension would be different then designed.

I was dumbfounded! In 2019, with all the available engineering technology available to a large company like Cannondale they just now figured out that as a frame changes dimensions, unless the suspension points also change relative to the frame, the action of the suspension is not consistent throughout all sizes. This seems to me to be engineering 101.

My point with the (to me) absurdity of disc brakes and thur axles on basic hybrid bikes is where the bike industry is putting their R&D dollars. It’s similar to the rabbit hole manufacturers went down when touting “women specific geometry “ only to quietly drop all such a few years later after realizing it was all based on outdated and limited data.

There is no question that hydraulic brakes perform better. There is also no question that rim brakes perform absolutely fine for most riders.

This is not about disc brakes vs rim brakes. It’s about manufacturers designing and producing bicycles that are appropriate in terms of price and functionality for the targeted buyers.

Hydraulic disc brakes on a bike with a Shimano Tourney rear derailleur? That’s putting manufacturing dollars to the best use? That really has the end user’s best interests in mind?

My point is that some (large and influential) bike companies are pushing debatable and questionable technology over sound engineering principals. I was using those two bikes as examples of what I see as hype over functionality.

I’ll bet Hambini would agree:)

[shinomaster]

I saw a 2020 Cannondale Quick today, a typical flat bar, upright, hybrid bike. Price tag of $1,000. It had flat mount hydraulic disc brakes and a front thur axle.

I saw a 2020 Electra Townie today, a typical ballon tire beach cruiser. It had hydraulic disc brakes. (With a Shimano Tourney derailleur)

I am struggling to find the right words to express the absurdity. No argument that hydraulic disc brakes offer better performance but these are two bike models that absolutely do not need discs and will only complicate the maintenance for the end user not to mention the added costs to the bike, added maintenance costs and although minimal, impact on the environment. To what end?

The engineering and development costs surely could have been put to better use by the companies involved.

I just don’t get it.

Most commuters have cantilever brakes which suck. If you lived in Seattle or Portland and had to ride down really steep hills in the rain, and you were a novice cyclist, you might want discs so you don't get killed.

[Burnette]

While people get twisted over disc brakes they fail to see the whole picture of what's happening around them.

Cycling is changing from the tour racer wannabes of old and is becoming more urban and varied, folding, electric assisted, commuting, gravel... and I think it's great. If you don't like disc then you're in for a world of silly irritation as cycling continues to evolve away from old norms.

I think that's great. The want of conformity to your tastes in others was always weird. And intolerant elitism never was good for the cycling community and it was a deterrent for those looking to join.

To fashion an argument that your purchase is devoid of hype and is "the right way" and that another person’s choice is uneducated and based fabricated marketing is just so wrong and hypocritical.

This and other cycling forums are full of passionate threads about clothing and components that are regurgitated company hype.

A bicycle is a simple device and the argument of "need" is funny, because if we're honest I would wager we all have way more than we need. I would add that some of us paid way more for it than we could have, we believed in the brand, in their ad copy and their product works well for us. So we buy and like it.

It's just where you turn around and throw a stone at another for their choices it all goes wrong.

If someone went to a shop and bought a Townie bike with all the doo dads they wanted on it, I hardly think we're the bunch to cry foul. I've read enough build threads to know we do pretty much the same. Didn't need to spend three grand on a bicycle, but did, then can't understand why someone else got exactly what they wanted? OK.

[colker]

While people get twisted over disc brakes they fail to see the whole picture of what's happening around them.

Cycling is changing from the tour racer wannabes of old and is becoming more urban and varied, folding, electric assisted, commuting, gravel... and I think it's great. If you don't like disc then you're in for a world of silly irritation as cycling continues to evolve away from old norms.

I think that's great. The want of conformity to your tastes in others was always weird. And intolerant elitism never was good for the cycling community and it was a deterrent for those looking to join.

To fashion an argument that your purchase is devoid of hype and is "the right way" and that another person’s choice is uneducated and based fabricated marketing is just so wrong and hypocritical.

This and other cycling forums are full of passionate threads about clothing and components that are regurgitated company hype.

A bicycle is a simple device and the argument of "need" is funny, because if we're honest I would wager we all have way more than we need. I would add that some of us paid way more for it than we could have, we believed in the brand, in their ad copy and their product works well for us. So we buy and like it.

It's just where you turn around and throw a stone at another for their choices it all goes wrong.

If someone went to a shop and bought a Townie bike with all the doo dads they wanted on it, I hardly think we're the bunch to cry foul. I've read enough build threads to know we do pretty much the same. Didn't need to spend three grand on a bicycle, but did, then can't understand why someone else got exactly what they wanted? OK.

It´s common knowledge that discs require stouter forks and frames. You are sacrificing frame/fork supplenness when opting for discs. Not if you ride on fat tires or susp forks but skinny wheels under a road frame? If that´s progress so be it. If you look in horror at 700x25 tires because your frameset is too stiff to absorb shock... ok. Just don´t tell me discs are "better". It may be the future, it may be better on a commuter... but not on the kind of riding a lot of us do.

[fa63]

It´s common knowledge that discs require stouter forks and frames. You are sacrificing frame/fork supplenness when opting for discs. Not if you ride on fat tires or susp forks but skinny wheels under a road frame? If that´s progress so be it. If you look in horror at 700x25 tires because your frameset is too stiff to absorb shock... ok. Just don´t tell me discs are "better". It may be the future, it may be better on a commuter... but not on the kind of riding a lot of us do.

My Felt FR Disc rides as good if not better than the Quiring XCR it replaced. And I am riding 25c tires on the Felt, and was riding 28c on the Quiring.

[colker]

My Felt FR Disc rides as good if not better than the Quiring XCR it replaced. And I am riding 25c tires on the Felt, and was riding 28c on the Quiring.

Fact is discs require stiffer fork legs. Stiffer is harsher.
You may love a harsher fork or frame. Some of us don´t.
You may not feel the difference. Some do.

That´s all.

[joosttx]

Fact is discs require stiffer fork legs. Stiffer is harsher.
You may love a harsher fork or frame. Some of us don´t.
You may not feel the difference. Some do.

That´s all.

My festka is the stiffest bike I own (but I would not call it harsh or stiff) It is also the only bike I own with rim brakes. I think argument works on paper but it reality it doesn’t matter.

[Jaybee]

While people get twisted over disc brakes they fail to see the whole picture of what's happening around them.

Cycling is changing from the tour racer wannabes of old and is becoming more urban and varied, folding, electric assisted, commuting, gravel... and I think it's great. If you don't like disc then you're in for a world of silly irritation as cycling continues to evolve away from old norms.

I think that's great. The want of conformity to your tastes in others was always weird. And intolerant elitism never was good for the cycling community and it was a deterrent for those looking to join.

To fashion an argument that your purchase is devoid of hype and is "the right way" and that another person’s choice is uneducated and based fabricated marketing is just so wrong and hypocritical.

This and other cycling forums are full of passionate threads about clothing and components that are regurgitated company hype.

A bicycle is a simple device and the argument of "need" is funny, because if we're honest I would wager we all have way more than we need. I would add that some of us paid way more for it than we could have, we believed in the brand, in their ad copy and their product works well for us. So we buy and like it.

It's just where you turn around and throw a stone at another for their choices it all goes wrong.

If someone went to a shop and bought a Townie bike with all the doo dads they wanted on it, I hardly think we're the bunch to cry foul. I've read enough build threads to know we do pretty much the same. Didn't need to spend three grand on a bicycle, but did, then can't understand why someone else got exactly what they wanted? OK.

There is so much specialized knowledge on this forum (which is one of the things that make it so great), but I think that a lot of us (self included, just ask my wife)tend to project our fairly niche and elitist preferences onto people who just want a bike to ride around the lake path on the weekends. There are a ton of those people, and the big bike companies are pretty good at selling bikes to them. They don’t care that Fausto Coppi didn’t need discs going down the Gavia in 1964 or whatever. A good bike to them is one that needs near zero maintenance and is comfortable and stable at 15mph.

[yinzerniner]

Fact is discs require stiffer fork legs. Stiffer is harsher.
You may love a harsher fork or frame. Some of us don´t.
You may not feel the difference. Some do.

That´s all.

You "FACT" is 100% non factual. Stiffness and harshness have nothing to do with strength, especially the strength needed for disc brakes.

Disc forks need to be designed so that the added stresses and forces of the caliper stopping the rotor don't affect the safe use of said fork. Some poorly designed disc forks might not be able to compensate for that without resorting to layups which produce such harshness, but well designed ones will perform and feel the exact same as a rim brake fork. I've yet to hear anyone say the Ritchey WCS disc fork performs any differently than the WCS rim fork even though they have the same straight steerer, and likewise with other aftermarket models from Enve, Whisky, Columbus, etc. which might have small differences which are most likely more due to the oversized steerer shapes.

As disc bike technology advances we're starting to see more asymmetric forks where the caliper leg is designed specifically for dealing with the added forces while the non-caliper leg is designed differently. It's taken some time but now that they have the ingredients they've started to perfect the alchemy.

In the last five years or so the biggest technological advancement in carbon has been the fine tuning of layup. Granted, a lot of the properties that are gained through layup precision were already found in existing materials and technologies but the industry and consumers still put some priority in weight, in which carbon cannot be beat.

[colker]

You "FACT" is 100% non factual.


As disc bike technology advances we're starting to see more asymmetric forks where the caliper leg is designed specifically for dealing with the added forces while the non-caliper leg is designed differently. It's taken some time but now that they have the ingredients they've started to perfect the alchemy.



HOw does a fork leg is designed to deal w/ added forces without being stiffer? How does a stiffer fork is more supple than a softer fork? Answer lies in the world of marketing.

EDIT: i don´t need stronger braking nor i want to give up on the ride of my steel frame and fork.

[colker]

My festka is the stiffest bike I own (but I would not call it harsh or stiff) It is also the only bike I own with rim brakes. I think argument works on paper but it reality it doesn’t matter.

You can build a stiff fork which uses rim brakes.

You cannot build a mellow supple steel fork using disc brakes. At least a lot of builders won´t.. Braking forces pivoting on the fork crown x pivoting on lower leg. Mechanically thinking it is obvious

[spoonrobot]

HOw does a fork leg is designed to deal w/ added forces without being stiffer? How does a stiffer fork is more supple than a softer fork? Answer lies in the world of marketing.

Bingo. Cyclists and the associated industry love hand-waving mysticism. "It's the lay-up" is the new "laterally stiff, vertically compliant".

And the WCS disc fork rides differently than the WCS rim fork. It's heavier (~124 grams), stiffer, has a different steerer, and does not track as well during braking.

Disc brakes and the associated updated ISO testing has led to less compliant, less comfortable riding frames and forks. As noted above, some riders will not notice but it's definitely there for those of us who do.

[yinzerniner]

HOw does a fork leg is designed to deal w/ added forces without being stiffer? How does a stiffer fork is more supple than a softer fork? Answer lies in the world of marketing.

EDIT: i don´t need stronger braking nor i want to give up on the ride of my steel frame and fork.

Since you love steel so much you should know the difference. Steel is incredibly strong without being overly stiff.

And just in case you can’t wrap how the two are different the first result on google.
Stiffness is an indicator of the tendency for an element to return to its original form after being subjected to a force. Strength measures how much stress can be applied to an element before it deforms permanently or fractures. Hardness measures a material's resistance to surface deformation.
https://www.fictiv.com/hwg/design/engineering-fundamentals-refresh-strength-vs-stiffness-vs-hardness

[kingpin75s]

You "FACT" is 100% non factual. Stiffness and harshness have nothing to do with strength, especially the strength needed for disc brakes.

Disc forks need to be designed so that the added stresses and forces of the caliper stopping the rotor don't affect the safe use of said fork. Some poorly designed disc forks might not be able to compensate for that without resorting to layups which produce such harshness, but well designed ones will perform and feel the exact same as a rim brake fork. I've yet to hear anyone say the Ritchey WCS disc fork performs any differently than the WCS rim fork even though they have the same straight steerer, and likewise with other aftermarket models from Enve, Whisky, Columbus, etc. which might have small differences which are most likely more due to the oversized steerer shapes.


Some of us still prefer steel forks.

Your argument and examples seem to only apply to carbon.

Show me a builder who agrees with your statement with respect to disk brakes and steel forks else your 100% comment, like many dogmatic thoughts, is off base.

[fa63]

You can build a stiff fork which uses rim brakes.



You cannot build a mellow supple steel fork using disc brakes. At least a lot of builders won´t.. Braking forces pivoting on the fork crown x pivoting on lower leg. Mechanically thinking it is obvious

This is the beauty of carbon fiber. Can be made to be stiff AND comfortable. Mechanically thinking, this should be obvious too.

[yinzerniner]

Some of us still prefer steel forks.

Your argument and examples seem to only apply to carbon.

Show me a builder who agrees with your statement with respect to disk brakes and steel forks else your 100% comment, like many dogmatic thoughts, is off base.

You’re right, it really only applies to carbon. If you were referring to steel rim vs disc brake forks then yes, it’s near impossible to get a steel disc fork that’s not stiffer or harsher than its rim brethren.

I haven’t ridden a steel fork in years so the default assumption was carbon as I didn’t see you specifically mention steel. But purely from a performance perspective I can’t see any steel forks matching a good carbon model. If you take in other factors like feel, strength, capability, or aesthetics the preferences shift mightily tho.

[colker]

This is the beauty of carbon fiber. Can be made to be stiff AND comfortable. Mechanically thinking, this should be obvious too.

It isn´t obvious. On the contrary it requires a leap of faith on magical properties of carbon. So far most of contemporary carbon frames lean on the harsh side of things.

[fa63]

It isn´t obvious. On the contrary it requires a leap of faith on magical properties of carbon. So far most of contemporary carbon frames lean on the harsh side of things.It is not a leap of faith; it is material science and engineering.

I just stated a few posts ago that my Felt FR Disc is as comfortable as my Quiring XCR, but apparently my experiences do not matter...

[yinzerniner]

It is not a leap of faith; it is material science and engineering.

Exactly, it’s not the size of the boat it’s the motion in the ocean
:banana:

Wait, what are we talking about again.....

[colker]

It is not a leap of faith; it is material science and engineering.

I just stated a few posts ago that my Felt FR Disc is as comfortable as my Quiring XCR, but apparently my experiences do not matter...

How you like your bike is vague and subjective. My argument is: discs require stouter fork and frame made of whatever material you decide to build with because pivoting forces not only are on the tips of the structure but worse.. it´s not centered.

[Ttx1]

Didn’t read the entire thread, but my $0.02... big guys achieve volume discounts with better margins - sorely needed. And deliver a gift to dealers in the form of “the new thing” (always good) with the added bonus of service revenue. Win win win for the industry - they most definitely have not lost their way. This IS their way.

Also, some consumers might benefit along the way, some might not. Net neutral vs legacy options.

[robertbb]

My point is that some (large and influential) bike companies are pushing debatable and questionable technology over sound engineering principals.

Always have, always will. Because dollars.

[yinzerniner]

How you like your bike is vague and subjective. My argument is: discs require stouter fork and frame made of whatever material you decide to build with because pivoting forces not only are on the tips of the structure but worse.. it´s not centered.

While that blanket statement might be correct it has no bearing on anything in particular. It’s like saying “steel is heavier than carbon and also less resistant to permanent structural damage.” So what? That’s just stating a fact without any particulars or context just to be proven right.

If you love your bike as is and think the ride would be ruined with disc brakes, then fine, that sounds awesome and further explanation would be incredibly useful to all. Personal opinions with particulars are always better than blanket statements foisted upon an entire subject.

[Burnette]

It´s common knowledge that discs require stouter forks and frames. You are sacrificing frame/fork supplenness when opting for discs. Not if you ride on fat tires or susp forks but skinny wheels under a road frame? If that´s progress so be it. If you look in horror at 700x25 tires because your frameset is too stiff to absorb shock... ok. Just don´t tell me discs are "better". It may be the future, it may be better on a commuter... but not on the kind of riding a lot of us do.

My take is and had always been that rim and disc both work and ride what you like.

The rest, you're isolating the frame from the whole. As a builder once said, the frame is the frame. You have to take the package as a whole and yes, a good, heck, a great bicycle can be made differently from your metrics and be perfectly fine for the riding a lot of us do.

There's more than one path to nirvana and acceptance from a clique isn't required. No one was shunned from the ride today due to components.

[Burnette]

There is so much specialized knowledge on this forum (which is one of the things that make it so great), but I think that a lot of us (self included, just ask my wife)tend to project our fairly niche and elitist preferences onto people who just want a bike to ride around the lake path on the weekends. There are a ton of those people, and the big bike companies are pretty good at selling bikes to them. They don’t care that Fausto Coppi didn’t need discs going down the Gavia in 1964 or whatever. A good bike to them is one that needs near zero maintenance and is comfortable and stable at 15mph.

So true, we're in a bubble here where some believe people obsess and care about the minutia of cycling as much as we do.

But where we are the same as the newbs you mention is that we all, even the seasoned among us you site, buy crap we don't need. Cycling forums are full of threads of stuff bought for laughable "marginal gains" when in reality it just looked nice and other bike geeks dig it

Sometimes the only difference between a newb and seasoned cyclist is that the latter knows how and where to spend more money.

[Burnette]

Didn’t read the entire thread, but my $0.02... big guys achieve volume discounts with better margins - sorely needed. And deliver a gift to dealers in the form of “the new thing” (always good) with the added bonus of service revenue. Win win win for the industry - they most definitely have not lost their way. This IS their way.

Also, some consumers might benefit along the way, some might not. Net neutral vs legacy options.

You didn't miss much as this has devolved into the usual stance of using red herring to make an illogical argument.

It's much hand wringing for naught in the end, no person was harmed by their choices but hysterically some seem offended by another's choice.

To your point, the cycling market is so saturated that you can get whatever you want, and it timed right, probably on sale. And there's nothing wrong with the bicycle configurations that don't adhere to a cliques preferences.

To the conformist out there, it's cool to have your favorite flavor, just don't bash the person next to you at the salad bar, it's weird.

[colker]

You didn't miss much as this has devolved into the usual stance of using red herring to make an illogical argument.

It's much hand wringing for naught in the end, no person was harmed by their choices but hysterically some seem offended by another's choice.

To your point, the cycling market is so saturated that you can get whatever you want, and it timed right, probably on sale. And there's nothing wrong with the bicycle configurations that don't adhere to a cliques preferences.

To the conformist out there, it's cool to have your favorite flavor, just don't bash the person next to you at the salad bar, it's weird.

Good. BIcycle evangelism is annoying. You want this? Fine. Others don´t ? Fine. Trying to prove on paper that you should not like what you like on a bicycle is a waste of time.

[joosttx]

Good. BIcycle evangelism is annoying. You want this? Fine. Others don´t ? Fine. Trying to prove on paper that you should not like what you like on a bicycle is a waste of time.

Please read what you wrote while staring at yourself in a mirror. :) . Frankly, I think you are very guilty of what you just wrote. So it might be time to self reflect.

[colker]

Please read what you wrote while staring at yourself in a mirror. :) . Frankly, I think you are very guilty of what you just wrote. So it might be time to self reflect.

Really? I disagree. I read the usual discussion where some are trying to prove discs are superior to rim brakes. It depends on what you need out of your bicycle. Rim brakes can be superior. Discs can be superior. Chose your menu.
If that makes me guilty of anything... well.. so be it.

[joosttx]

Really? I disagree. I read the usual discussion where some are trying to prove discs are superior to rim brakes. It depends on what you need out of your bicycle. Rim brakes can be superior. Discs can be superior. Chose your menu.
If that makes me guilty of anything... well.. so be it.

Thank you for realizing your errors. Good talk.

[Burnette]

Good. BIcycle evangelism is annoying. You want this? Fine. Others don´t ? Fine. Trying to prove on paper that you should not like what you like on a bicycle is a waste of time.

If someone buys and rides a bicycle, a bicycle mind you, that is the polar opposite to your preferences there should be no animosity, no disparaging of choices. It's a bicycle and someone else's bicycle doesn't impede the enjoyment of your own.

We really shouldn't have to have such discussions in 2019 but here we are.

I don't see it as evangelism at all, I see it as getting along and being in a community where we are tolerant of another's choice. A person isn't automatically wrong and cast as gullible because they bought a bike that a very few but vocal group doesn't seem to like.

Again, that's a trait of cycling I would like to see dissipate. We come to forums to share and enjoy, not to castigate and cast out. A person doing such will end up in an empty room.

If we read members post here and other cycling forums you'll see it's comprised of a varied group that buy and ride all manner of bicycle. I wouldn't be so quick to disparage them for it.

[colker]

Thank you for realizing your errors. Good talk.

If you see it that way.. good. I don´t care.

[Aaron O]

So long as we all agree that you should ride with a helmet, campagnolo > Shimano, and only poser cx bikes have bottle bosses, we’re all good

[colker]

So long as we all agree that you should ride with a helmet, campagnolo > Shimano, and only poser cx bikes have bottle bosses, we’re all good

Don´t forget horizontal top tubes are vastly superior to dropping top tubes.

[vincenz]

Isn’t stiffness just a number? That is, if you hypothetically have a carbon fork and steel fork with the same stiffness regardless of weight, they will still have a different ride quality.

[Burnette]

Isn’t stiffness just a number? That is, if you hypothetically have a carbon fork and steel fork with the same stiffness regardless of weight, they will still have a different ride quality.

Focusing on just the fork is basing an argument on one aspect out of the whole bicycle and using a very subjective qualifier to differentiate the two.

Bicycles can be made with either to good effect. It comes down to what you prefer.

[vincenz]

Focusing on just the fork is basing an argument on one aspect out of the whole bicycle and using a very subjective qualifier to differentiate the two.



Bicycles can be made with either to good effect. It comes down to what you prefer.


That’s what I’m getting at, the whole carbon versus steel thing is pointless, regardless if it’s frame or fork. They’re both different and can’t really be compared apples to apples because of inherent differences in the materials. Trying to compare them using one quantifier such as stiffness is meaningless then.

[Heisenberg]

How you like your bike is vague and subjective. My argument is: discs require stouter fork and frame made of whatever material you decide to build with because pivoting forces not only are on the tips of the structure but worse.. it´s not centered.

neat argument.

most of the world doesn't really give a flying **** that their frame/fork weigh 50-100g (5% at best) more (real number).

especially if it means they can stop their $1000 townies better.

:banana:

this thread is the dumbest i've read in awhile, boomers.

[Burnette]

That’s what I’m getting at, the whole carbon versus steel thing is pointless, regardless if it’s frame or fork. They’re both different and can’t really be compared apples to apples because of inherent differences in the materials. Trying to compare them using one quantifier such as stiffness is meaningless then.

Exactly. I totally agree. It is a pointless angle but it's often used here to try and make an illogical argument.

It's an argument made from a group of subjective feelings from one perspective that is then projected as some fact, when in reality it is far from it.

The need to do this is the weird part. It takes time and effort to jump through mental hoops to try and fashion an argument about a bicycle component you don't like and base it upon subjective conjecture. The need to do this escapes me.

[colker]

Focusing on just the fork is basing an argument on one aspect out of the whole bicycle and using a very subjective qualifier to differentiate the two.

Bicycles can be made with either to good effect. It comes down to what you prefer.

A less compliant fork is an objective factor. A fork may impact perceived ride quality more than anything else.

[tbike4]

*

[vincenz]

A less compliant fork is an objective factor. A fork may impact perceived ride quality more than anything else.


If compliance is objective, how are you measuring compliance? By stiffness? If so, I don’t see how it’s relevant for comparison between the two different materials..

[colker]

That’s what I’m getting at, the whole carbon versus steel thing is pointless, regardless if it’s frame or fork. They’re both different and can’t really be compared apples to apples because of inherent differences in the materials. Trying to compare them using one quantifier such as stiffness is meaningless then.

The thread is about disc x rim brakes. Is it? well...Someone says a carbon fork can be made stiffer to support discs but comfortable as if the stouter legs did not matter. Ok. Then you have steel forks. Some people still prize steel forks. A beefed up steel fork won´t do the same trick.

[vincenz]

neat argument.



most of the world doesn't really give a flying **** that their frame/fork weigh 50-100g (5% at best) more (real number).



especially if it means they can stop their $1000 townies better.



:banana:



this thread is the dumbest i've read in awhile, boomers.



Agree, but this isn’t a thread for most of the world. And there’s a large subsection for which 100g is a lot.

[colker]

If compliance is objective, how are you measuring compliance? By stiffness? If so, I don’t see how it’s relevant for comparison between the two different materials..

I guess you measure complaince by how much the fork legs move under impact? No one is comparing carbon to steel. On the contrary. Some prefer steel for it´s own set of qualities.
It may even be an irrational preference. Otoh adopting disc brakes when rim brakes work perfectly fine is also irrational. there you go.

[Heisenberg]

Agree, but this isn’t a thread for most of the world. And there’s a large subsection for which 100g is a lot.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com

[Burnette]

A less compliant fork is an objective factor. A fork may impact perceived ride quality more than anything else.

You're surrounded by people with all manner of bicycle that they believe to be great. It's wrong headed and way too simplistic a view to look at just one piece out of a whole bicycle and use your personal subjective metrics as a base for how all behave and what all prefer.

If you dig a steel fork, great, but it in no way negates another's enjoyment andcpreference of one that is not.

[tbike4]

BIcycle evangelism?? This s¶§t is getting too deep. I'll go read about Einstein's spooky action at a distance. It's easier to follow. Or more interesting.

[colker]

You're surrounded by people with all manner of bicycle that they believe to be great. It's wrong headed and way too simplistic a view to look at just one piece out of a whole bicycle and use your personal subjective metrics as a base for how all behave and what all prefer.

If you dig a steel fork, great, but it in no way negates another's enjoyment andcpreference of one that is not.

It´s not wrong headed nor too simplistic to prize fork performance. Actually it´s right headed.
Otoh prizing brake performance when you do not need more performance could be called wrong headed.
And clouding logic w/ subjectivity or relativity does not work either.

[Burnette]

A less compliant fork is an objective factor. A fork may impact perceived ride quality more than anything else.

How you precieve ride quality is subjective, again, you're surrounded by some cyclist who name bicycles as thier favorite and best riding and they aren't steel.

It's a false argument in that a bicycle has to be taken as a whole and can be made to have the desired characteristics and not be made of steel.

There's more than one way to a good bicycle and it's false too believing that another's choice is less valid than your own.

[colker]

You're surrounded by people with all manner of bicycle that they believe to be great. It's wrong headed and way too simplistic a view to look at just one piece out of a whole bicycle and use your personal subjective metrics as a base for how all behave and what all prefer.

If you dig a steel fork, great, but it in no way negates another's enjoyment andcpreference of one that is not.

Fact is you have to beef up the legs of a steel fork to make it a disc fork. A beefed up steel fork rides harsher. If that fact negates your enjoyment of your bike.

[colker]

How you precieve ride quality is subjective, again, you're surrounded by some cyclist who name bicycles as thier favorite and best riding and they aren't steel.

It's a false argument in that a bicycle has to be taken as a whole and can be made to have the desired characteristics and not be made of steel.

There's more than one way to a good bicycle and it's false too believing that another's choice is less valid than your own.

When you adopt discs you have to make the frame and fork stiffer. Not everybody enjoy a stiffer frame and fork over something lighter and more compliant.

[Burnette]

It´s not wrong headed nor too simplistic to prize fork performance. Actually it´s right headed.
Otoh prizing brake performance when you do not need more performance could be called wrong headed.
And clouding logic w/ subjectivity or relativity does not work either.

It is way too simplistic in thought to not take into account the whole package of the bicycle and rider in the equation.

And you're basing everything on subjective feel from a sample size of one, yourself. Appreciate the fact that another person could come to a different conclusion with the same evidence and you nor they would be wrong. It's what you prefer, they both work.

[colker]

It is way too simplistic in thought to not take into account the whole package of the bicycle and rider in the equation.

And you're basing everything on subjective feel from a sample size of one, yourself. Appreciate the fact that another person could come to a different conclusion with the same evidence and you nor they would be wrong. It's what you prefer, they both work.

You have always defended disc brakes. Fine. You like them. Untill you say it makes no difference over other aspects of the bicycle. It´s just "better". I don´t think so. It´s better if you need more braking and are willing to sacrifice ride quality, fork compliance. There is nothing simplistic. It´s just logic.

[Burnette]

When you adopt discs you have to make the frame and fork stiffer. Not everybody enjoy a stiffer frame and fork over something lighter and more compliant.

Stay with me and see your own words above. You talk of your subjective feelings and personal wants and believe it can't be achieved with a disc bike. That's fine.

That may be a fact for you personally, it's just what you yourself feel and believe. I'm just saying be tolerant and appreciate that other people can come to a different conclusion and neither of you are wrong, it's just what you prefer.

[colker]

Stay with me and see your own words above. You talk of your subjective feelings and personal wants and believe it can't be achieved with a disc bike. That's fine.

That may be a fact for you personally, it's just what you yourself feel and believe. I'm just saying be tolerant and appreciate that other people can come to a different conclusion and neither of you are wrong, it's just what you prefer.

I don´t talk of anything subjective. A stiffer beefed up fork has no feelings or subjectivity. It has more material.

[Burnette]

You have always defended disc brakes. Fine. You like them. Untill you say it makes no difference over other aspects of the bicycle. It´s just "better". I don´t think so. It´s better if you need more braking and are willing to sacrifice ride quality, fork compliance.

If you go back you'll see you're having a one man fight, I'm not saying rim or disc are better, I'm saying it's about preference.

As far as ride quality, that's a personal opinion and we should appreciate that others opinions will differ and we all should be OK with that.

I will never try to change your opinion, why would I? I'm telling you that ohers have a different opinion and neither you nor they are wrong. People like what they like.

[colker]

There are a few builders who refused to build w/ discs. I could name three of the best custom builders out there who said "no. i won´t lessen my frame quality."

[colker]

If you go back you'll see you're having a one man fight, I'm not saying rim or disc are better, I'm saying it's about preference.

As far as ride quality, that's a personal opinion and we should appreciate that others opinions will differ and we all should be OK with that.

I will never try to change your opinion, why would I? I'm telling you that ohers have a different opinion and neither you nor they are wrong. People like what they like.

I am not fighting anything or anyone. It´s just fact and logic on a disc brake thread. .

[Burnette]

I don´t talk of anything subjective. A stiffer beefed up fork has no feelings or subjectivity. It has more material.

It's pure subjectivity! We all could take our favorite bike out and let a hundred people ride it and rest assured some would say our bike ride like crap.

And they wouldn't be wrong , it was crap for them even though we love it.

[colker]

It's pure subjectivity! We all could take our favorite bike out and let a hundred people ride it and rest assured some would say our bike ride like crap.

And they wouldn't be wrong , it was crap for them even though we love it.

Pegoretti refused to build disc brake frames. I know of two others.

[Burnette]

I am not fighting anything or anyone. It´s just fact and logic on a disc brake thread. .

Fact would be that both types work and logic would dictate that people tend to spend moneyon things they like.

[colker]

Fact would be that both types work and logic would dictate that people tend to spend moneyon things they like.

I already said both technologies work.. but there is no free lunch. I don´t buy the free lunch hype in this case.

[Burnette]

Pegoretti refused to build disc brake frames. I know of two others.

That's great!

There's no shortage of bicycle makers and every need can be satisfied. Whatever you want, it's out there. There's no losers there.

[ultraman6970]

Dario is not there no more, at some point the new administration gonna have to think seriously about it because the market is going that way for at least a year now and if prices of parts continue going down disc will be here for a very long time. Pegoretti as any other company needs to sell... I give them at least a year to change their mind.

[Burnette]

I already said both technologies work.. but there is no free lunch. I don´t buy the free lunch hype in this case.

Nor should you and nobody should make you.

To each their own.

[joosttx]

I already said both technologies work.. but there is no free lunch. I don´t buy the free lunch hype in this case.

For the record: you cannot buy a free lunch, ever.


:banana: Regardless of the case or restaurant.

[colker]

I know guys who bomb down big descents. They want their discs. It makes a difference for them. I get it. I ride different terrain. I don´t need it. A rim brake bike is better for me.

[colker]

For the record: you cannot buy a free lunch, ever.


:banana: Regardless of the case or restaurant.

Hype is expensive.

[colker]

Dario is not there no more, at some point the new administration gonna have to think seriously about it because the market is going that way for at least a year now and if prices of parts continue going down disc will be here for a very long time. Pegoretti as any other company needs to sell... I give them at least a year to change their mind.

Exactly. That´s my point: market forces.

[Burnette]

I know guys who bomb down big descents. They want their discs. It makes a difference for them. I get it. I ride different terrain. I don´t need it. A rim brake bike is better for me.

And that's it in a nutshell and thank you for that.

We're cyclist and we all should be OK if we differ on gear, for crying out loud . Once we all start pedaling it's all moot anyway.

[Aaron O]

The best brakes are the ones I’m using on whatever bike I’m riding at the moment, because pretty much all of them stop the bike. Unless it’s s flexy single pivot brake with bad pads and steel rims.

[Burnette]

For the record: you cannot buy a free lunch, ever.


:banana: Regardless of the case or restaurant.

After being on this board awhile I don't think we could all even agree on what restaurant to go to:)

[XXtwindad]

Pegoretti refused to build disc brake frames. I know of two others.

Who are the two others? i'm just curious. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I could care less, actually. I like disc brakes for their functionality and rim brakes for their aesthetics.

[XXtwindad]

I already said both technologies work.. but there is no free lunch. I don´t buy the free lunch hype in this case.

PS … FWIW I generally dig your posts. You don't give a **** what other people think. It's good to have a few iconoclasts on the site. Makes things much more interesting.

[colker]

Who are the two others? i'm just curious. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I could care less, actually. I like disc brakes for their functionality and rim brakes for their aesthetics.

Matt Chester... and i never saw a disc brake Sachs.

[colker]

PS … FWIW I generally dig your posts. You don't give a **** what other people think. It's good to have a few iconoclasts on the site. Makes things much more interesting.

Thanks.;)

[peanutgallery]

Can't remember the last time a customer came in looking for ANY bike with rim brakes....or old skool mtb geo. There's $500 bikes with hydro disc, its a no brainer, they work really well

The reason folks may resent disc is that it makes their 20 year old litespeed out of date. Life progesses

[Ttx1]

For the record: you cannot buy a free lunch, ever.


:banana: Regardless of the case or restaurant.

“No such thing as a free lunch” - JP Morgan

Perhaps not coincidentally, there was no (cash) cost to employees to dine in the cafeteria at the JPM HQ in NYC...

[colker]

Can't remember the last time a customer came in looking for ANY bike with rim brakes....or old skool mtb geo. There's $500 bikes with hydro disc, its a no brainer, they work really well

The reason folks may resent disc is that it makes their 20 year old litespeed out of date. Life progesses

$500 bikes w/ hydro disc work really well but have no style. Road riding has tradition: out of date is always cool.

[peanutgallery]

Aren't you a sweetheart

$500 bikes w/ hydro disc work really well but have no style. Road riding has tradition: out of date is always cool.

[vincenz]

Can't remember the last time a customer came in looking for ANY bike with rim brakes....or old skool mtb geo. There's $500 bikes with hydro disc, its a no brainer, they work really well



The reason folks may resent disc is that it makes their 20 year old litespeed out of date. Life progesses



I don’t resent disc, but I wouldn’t buy one based on aesthetics, weight, and complexity.

[buddybikes]

I was riding my TI/Carbon FF few months back (circa 2014 with gasp...9000 rim brakes) guy passing me (yes I am slow) said nice retro.

[colker]

Aren't you a sweetheart

sweet and outdated.;)

[XXtwindad]

I was riding my TI/Carbon FF few months back (circa 2014 with gasp...9000 rim brakes) guy passing me (yes I am slow) said nice retro.

Damn. If your FF was a 58, I would gladly ride it with toe cages, cut off blue jean shorts, a tank top and hiking boots.

I might even grow a ponytail in back.

[gemship]

I spent $300 for my first sort of real bike in 1985. That's $715 today. It had tech on it from 40 years earlier. I don't really think $1K is that far out of line. Maybe a bit high, but for what you are getting? Might be a bargain.

Yeah oddly enough I agree with you but just because I like bikes and I can afford it. However I know this one guy that works at Burger King and he always rides his bike to work except when it breaks down. He said he had to take to the shop to be repaired. I guess he can't do it himself. At one time he toyed with getting a scooter then he told me he was interested in driving a car but ultimately I think he stuck with the bike due to finances. To add to that he was living with his aunt but decided he wanted a place of his own so he had to save up for rent. It's funny because 1k is a lot of money to me as it take a decent week for me (self employed) to earn it but for some folks that's like a couple months of saving or longer...

Anyway I guess a previous poster stated there's 500$ bikes with hydro brakes as standard equipment. I believe it as I don't think the tech is any big deal and materials to make it are plentiful. But that's just me being cynical and thinking bikes are kinda overpriced anyways.

[Aaron O]

I'm going to be getting a custom done, sort of an all rounder'/rando'ish sort of build, and my biggest "which way to go" is whether to use discs, or braze on center pulls. Leaning center pulls because I understand them, I know they work, and they're pretty. I'm sure either would be fine.

[benb]

$500 bikes w/ hydro disc work really well but have no style. Road riding has tradition: out of date is always cool.

The Target market for $500 bikes with hydro discs think our rim brake road bikes are stooopid. Dumb drop bars, tires are too skinny, too uncomfortable, etc, etc...

Everyone else except us think we look ridiculous! :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

$500 bikes w/ hydro disc work really well but have no style. Road riding has tradition: out of date is always cool.

By that metric wooden rims and spoon brakes are the coolest of them all. To say nothing of penny farthings and strider velocipedes.

[Aaron O]

By that metric wooden rims and spoon brakes are the coolest of them all. To say nothing of penny farthings and strider velocipedes.

I give cool points to wheel men.

[pdmtong]

Low end discs on low end bikes is no different than years ago when the industry was putting a 6 pound 2" travel fork on low end mtb's.

Except I would argue that the discs provide more rider benefit than those lousy forks did.

My neighbor has one of those hybrid commuter bikes the OP mentions. Guess what...for him commuting its fantastic.