LBS fail - MEA CULPA PAGE 8 (I think)

[makoti]

My nephew bought a bike about year and a half ago from a LBS. Good shop. Set him up with a Specialized Sagan something and off he went. Rode it for the 18 months without an issue. Kept air to 105 psi in the tires & lube on the chain. His first bike, so he was pretty happy with it.
Until today. He got a flat. First one, so he texted me for some info. His first question was "Where is the tube supposed to be?" Wha...?
They sold him the bike with Tubeless set up, never told him that's what he had or that he needed to refresh the sealant. Didn't offer to sell him a sealant system. Didn't point out that 105psi would be crazy high for this set up. And, I'm thinking that they set up the tubeless using tires that aren't tubeless. Specialized Espoir Sport. I can't find a thing that says theses tires are tubeless.
I told him to go back in and have them either put in the tubes that should have been in there to begin with or, if the tires ARE tubeless, have them refill & reset both tires since they never mentioned that he needed to do this.
18 months on that set up is great, but wow, that was some bad CS after the sale.

[duff_duffy]

I don’t know, I see things differently on this one. I’d say if bike went a solid 18 months with no issues they set it up just fine. Keep open the possibility they did tell him but he did not remember....

[ultraman6970]

Well... probably the bike was a trade in and they did not know much about it besides "we need to get this stuff out quick!"... you know how the thing works and probably they were not even expecting the guy (you nephew) was going to still being riding after a year, many bikes are bought because the guy wants to ride a few times and at the end end up in the garage for years.. again you know how it goes....

Sucks tho, they should have told him and even if you think it further if the bike was a trade in maybe the original owner did the stuff and the lbs did not know... the other problem is that sometimes a kid gets his 1st job at the LBS and the guy barely knows, he sealed the deal, your kid just wanted to ride it and there you have it...ideal combination for a disaster because the sale kid did not know jack and your nephew did not know what to ask or look into, since he was happy he was not worry and usually this stuff comes to light because of a problem.

If your nephew got a good deal I would try to get him to do the right thing and fix the bike himself so he learns so stuff like this never happens to him again you know. But going to the LBS probably wont help at all, i would not even bother.

Thats the main reason I do the stuff myself, my fault all the time... not somebody elses.

[makoti]

Well... probably the bike was a trade in and they did not know much about it besides "we need to get this stuff out quick!"... you know how the thing works and probably they were not even expecting the guy (you nephew) was going to still being riding after a year, many bikes are bought because the guy wants to ride a few times and at the end end up in the garage for years.. again you know how it goes....

Sucks tho, they should have told him and even if you think it further if the bike was a trade in maybe the original owner did the stuff and the lbs did not know... the other problem is that sometimes a kid gets his 1st job at the LBS and the guy barely knows, he sealed the deal, your kid just wanted to ride it and there you have it...ideal combination for a disaster because the sale kid did not know jack and your nephew did not know what to ask or look into, since he was happy he was not worry and usually this stuff comes to light because of a problem.

If your nephew got a good deal I would try to get him to do the right thing and fix the bike himself so he learns so stuff like this never happens to him again you know. But going to the LBS probably wont help at all, i would not even bother.

Thats the main reason I do the stuff myself, my fault all the time... not somebody elses.

No, it was new but on sale. And I think he needs to go in. They need to know whoever sold him this didn't follow through. And who ever checked it to send it out missed the whole wrong tire for tubeless thing. Kind of a big deal.

[makoti]

I don’t know, I see things differently on this one. I’d say if bike went a solid 18 months with no issues they set it up just fine. Keep open the possibility they did tell him but he did not remember....

He's a pretty sharp kid. I asked if they mentioned a sealant kit or refreshing the tires or anything like that. Did they try to sell him anything like that? Nope. Nothing. Yeah, it's great he got 18 months out of it. It's also great that he didn't have tire/rim failure at 105psi on a tire not designed for it.

[weisan]

I went to a reputable car dealership and bought a car. It was a lamborghin. I drove it for 18 months without incident. Today I got stopped by the cops for speeding. I told the officer the car dealership did not inform me at the time of the purchase that my car was capable of a top speed of more than 200 miles per hour....:confused:

[charliedid]

18 months tubeless @ 105 psi sounds like a great PR story for going sans tubes!

Like

[CAAD]

Who runs 100+psi these days!?

[vincenz]

I went to a reputable car dealership and bought a car. It was a lamborghin. I drove it for 18 months without incident. Today I got stopped by the cops for speeding. I told the officer the car dealership did not inform me at the time of the purchase that my car was capable of a top speed of more than 200 miles per hour....:confused:


Hmm, I don’t think this works...

[weisan]

Hmm, I don’t think this works...

It works for me, sorry.

[Dracarys]

Who runs 100+psi these days!?



A lot of pros, apparently. I keep reading, now and then, about pros’ bike configs and I always notice how many of them run very high psi. The latest is Marianne Vos, who runs her 25mm tubulars at 100 psi.

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/10/pro-bike-marianne-vos-liv-langma-sl/

[duff_duffy]

100psi makes you feel faster therefore you are faster!

[makoti]

I went to a reputable car dealership and bought a car. It was a lamborghin. I drove it for 18 months without incident. Today I got stopped by the cops for speeding. I told the officer the car dealership did not inform me at the time of the purchase that my car was capable of a top speed of more than 200 miles per hour....:confused:

That's possibly the weakest thing I've read here in a long time. Congratulations for adding nothing to the forum.

[vincenz]

It works for me, sorry.


This is potentially a technical issue/customer support issue. I don’t see how your example is analogous..

[Blue Jays]

The bicycle and the tires were successfully ridden for eighteen months.
Purchase new tires, fresh sealant, and get the bicycle back on the road.

[johnmdesigner]

I went to a bike shop today to kick some tires and was treated like a clueless beginner.
That said, whether you buy a bike, car or house you shouldn't expect to have everything revealed to you without some effort on your own.
I'm just wondering. Why didn't you go with him?

[Matthew]

I ride 110 psi sometimes. On 23mm tires. Works ok for me .

[ultraman6970]

I ride 90-110 range tubulars... but im 220 pounds too :P

[zmalwo]

Is it even possible to run tubeless on regular clincher tires????

[nalax]

Is it even possible to run tubeless on regular clincher tires????
Yes. Used to be called "ghetto tubeless". MTB's were fairly easy to set up tubeless. Some tires were easier than others.

[joosttx]

Not sure if the LBS failed here.

[phoenix]

I don’t feel that having him go into the shop and start pointing fingers is going to provide the outcome you desire here. The first thing I think of after reading your initial post is the high probablility that some of the tubeless maintenance was mentioned, but it just didn’t click for him. As a new rider he may not have had a sound understanding of what he was even getting. He may not have asked questions that led the sales advisor to provide more info on the topic.

I would say he got good use out of the product at the end of the day. As someone who has almost 20 years of shop experience under my belt, I would recommend going into the shop and talking with them and see how the conversation goes. Going in “guns blazing” pointing fingers is a good way to get fired as a customer from a shop.

In your defense, it is odd that a Sagan Venge or Tarmac was spec’d with an Espoir tire, as the Espoir is an upper mid-range road tire that I don’t believe has ever been 2Bliss (Specialized’ version of tubeless), nor spec’d on a bike of that caliber. Something was going on with the bike no doubt, but after this much time has passed I would personally chalk it up to a lesson learned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

That's possibly the weakest thing I've read here in a long time. Congratulations for adding nothing to the forum.

:):)
For the OP, some sales guys are good, some aren’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if the sales guy isn’t even there anymore. ‘Pretty’ famous case, about 2 decades or more ago about a bike front wheel and proper use of QR...lots of lawsuits, etc.
I agree about the Lamborghini post but I recently bought a new car and the dealer ‘info session’ wasn’t great. It would be like running out of windshield fluid to find out it couldn’t be replenished without a mechanic or sumthin...:eek:

[oldpotatoe]

I ride 90-110 range tubulars... but im 220 pounds too :P

.1 of a ton PLUS here, hey it’s winter.....85 psi both....Vittoria Corsa Elite or Pave....25, 28mm.

[ultraman6970]

Common practice in shops (not all ok but it makes sense because I have seen it), to lower the price they swap stuff like wheels. So who knows... I consider myself ignorant of what bikes have stock 100%, but i would look at the catalogs 1st before going to the store... but that's just me and not 100% the case of average joe you know.

Well the store this some drastic move of parts before because another guy wanted X stuff in the bike or he was not going to buy it and they did a swap of stuff and the one the kid got went rogue with other set of wheels, probably this happened.

Honestly after a year probably the guys do not even "remember" if such a thing happened, and at the time to sell the bike if they did the swap doubt they will mention it tho... would you mention it?

[Mikej]

Out of curiosity did he ever need to pump up the tires? Did he notice any sign sealant was used? 18 months is a crazy long time for sealant in s ROAD size tire, what was in there, I may need to change brands!

[Clancy]

A road tire set-up tubeless and pumped up to 100+ psi and maintaining that pressure for 18 months?

Sorry, defies everything I’ve experienced with tubeless.

Simple. Don’t believe it.

More to the story

[45K10]

After 18 months I think that is pretty much "mea culpa" for the bike owner. In the end it isn't a big deal IMO. Throw a tube in both wheels and keep on riding.

[bigbill]

My kid picked up cycling in college, never an interest before. He rides 200+ miles a week and knows nothing about his bike. I stopped by the LBS the team uses on Friday to get him a gift card for his birthday. The mechanic there told me some of the stories about team bikes they've worked on. Everything from "the brakes don't work" (because they were released) to "there's a weird sound when I brake" (because they road a few hundred miles on carbon clinchers with their old alloy rim brake pads). I was lucky enough to know a guy who gave me a great deal on a no-brainer bike for my kid. Aluminum Specialized, 8000 group, and 240/Hed wheelset.

[makoti]

I went to a bike shop today to kick some tires and was treated like a clueless beginner.
That said, whether you buy a bike, car or house you shouldn't expect to have everything revealed to you without some effort on your own.
I'm just wondering. Why didn't you go with him?

I actually sent him there to look at that bike, but he didn't ask me to go with him.
As to your point, if you buy something that needs special attention & you can't really tell by looking at it (You can't really tell tubed from tubeless by looking & a new rider REALLY can't), it's basic service to inform your customer of those needs.

To everyone saying it's been 18mo, forget about it. Look at this from the shop side.
You possibly sent a bike out improperly set up. It didn't cause an issue this time, but we all know the times we live in. Next time? Maybe a lawsuit if they did set up non-tubeless as tubeless. Wouldn't you want to know so you can correct the process?
You missed a sale, an easy one, on accessories & that's where you make your money. Wouldn't you want to educate your sales people so you can continue to have sales people?
You failed to give a customer all the info he needed & now he's going to tell the story (Of course he is. So would you). He's an active member of the largest Tri group in the area, now. Which ending do you want out there - I went back in and they apologized & did what they could to make it right. They couldn't figure out how it happened, but they took care of it? Or I bought & tossed in a couple of tubes & everything was fine, but man I don't know if I trust those guys?
The story will help sell tubeless, for sure. 18mo without doing anything but adding air? Sign me up! It's still a fail by the shop, however.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I’ve never used tubeless tires but if you get a flat, can’t you use a regular tube after taking out the valve?

[Seramount]

To everyone saying it's been 18mo, forget about it. It's still a fail by the shop...

nah. the length of time elapsed is totally relevant in this little saga...

if you just need confirmation that the shop is negligent, pick a better example.

[R3awak3n]

I mean, 18 months on a set of tires without a puncture or any problems? thats pretty amazing. What is even more amazing is that he was running tubeless at 110psi. That is insane and according to a lot, dangerous lol... no more than 60psi on tubeless they say. Well this guy proved them wrong.

I don't think this is a terrible bike shop fail really (expect not telling him what pressure he should run because I do think 110 tubeless is excessive and dangerous... I don't subscribe to the 60psi max but 110 is a lot and big risk of tire blowout). I mean, the shop probably also did not tell him when yo replace the cables and how much torque to put on the stem screws...

And also... with tubeless he can just put a tube in there so he probably did just that and carried on with his ride

[unterhausen]

I thought the standard for road tubeless was no sealant.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Who runs 100+psi these days!?

I ride well north of 100 psi, and I still run 700-20's in front. Works great.

[R3awak3n]

I thought the standard for road tubeless was no sealant.

never heard or that.

that is no reason not to use sealant. not using sealant on tubeless is missing the point of tubeless.

[HenryA]

The ony way this shop has and will fail is if they don’t respond to his bringing the bike in with — “Sir, your bicycle needs some attention. We see that the tires should be tended to and the bike should be serviced and adjusted so you can ride it another year and a half without trouble. Since you bought your bike from us, the cost of this service will be a discounted price of $129.00 plus parts. And that includes a free minor adjustment during the next year. We’ll have it ready in two days and call you as soon as we are done. We really appreciate your business.”

And when he picks the bike up they should sell him some chain lube and a pump with instructions to lube the chain every month and check the tires before each ride. And show him the new jerseys that just came in.

Selling a bike that the buyer rides for 18 months with no troubles is not a fail.

[Hellgate]

Not sure if the LBS failed here.Exactly...

[parris]

Henry is on point with this. It would be intresting to see the wear on the back tire after 18 months of use. Also after 18 months check for drivetrain wear, brake pad wear, cable condition, etc.

[false_Aest]

I'm of the opinion that at age 25 you no longer get to blame your parents for you being a ****ty adult.

Similarly, after 6 months, you no longer get to blame the LBS.

[Gsinill]

To everyone saying it's been 18mo, forget about it. Look at this from the shop side.
You possibly sent a bike out improperly set up. It didn't cause an issue this time, but we all know the times we live in. Next time? Maybe a lawsuit...

Catch 22: customer/consumer expectation is the base for all the litigation in this country.

[OtayBW]

Seems like the LBS should have alerted a newbie that the tires were tubeless and taught him how to take care of flats, etc. That's their job, IMO. Beyond that, liability or expectation after 18 mos is another matter....

[joosttx]

I'm of the opinion that at age 25 you no longer get to blame your parents for you being a ****ty adult.

Similarly, after 6 months, you no longer get to blame the LBS.

#like

[Gummee]

I went to a bike shop today to kick some tires and was treated like a clueless beginner.
That said, whether you buy a bike, car or house you shouldn't expect to have everything revealed to you without some effort on your own.
I'm just wondering. Why didn't you go with him?
18mos is a LONG time between check-ins at an LBS.

It's also a LONG time that the customer has had to figure out what needs to be maintained on their bike. There's this little obscure website known as Google...

Nope. I'm going to chalk this one up as a JRA story.

M

[AngryScientist]

I'm sorry makoti. I can see your initial impression and a little bit of frustration, but i'm tired of the general trend towards lack of personal accountability that is happening today.

everything cant be someone else's fault.

https://revitalizationpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/personal-accountability.jpg

[bikinchris]

18 MONTHS???

Would 19 months mean that bike shop was off the hook? What is the deadline for a rider to take responsibility for maintenance of their own bike? Just how many times was the bike serviced by the local bike shop in 18 months? How many miles does it have? Just who told him to use that pressure?

[avalonracing]

24 months in: The chain is beginning to get squeaky. Calls lawyer.

[makoti]

I'm sorry makoti. I can see your initial impression and a little bit of frustration, but i'm tired of the general trend towards lack of personal accountability that is happening today.

everything cant be someone else's fault.


Yikes. I also don't care for people trying to blame the person something happened to.
"Personal accountability"? Really? Do you understand what that means?
Did he put the tires on the bike? No
Did he set them up as tubeless when they likely should not have been? No
Did he send it out the door without tubes in the tires? No
Did he sell the bike without properly going over BASIC care (and if the salesperson was worth half a crap, they'd have clued in on he's new at this)? No (And if you don't think that a shop should do this, you clearly have never worked in a bike shop. It was standard practice anytime I sold a bike to cover the basics - tire pressures, service intervals, and the like)
Was it a while ago? Yes. Does that change any of the above? No.
You seem to want to put the blame on him for not knowing he had a set up that required care he wasn't told about.
This is a GOOD shop in the area. They botched this one. Give them a chance to fix it.

[makoti]

24 months in: The chain is beginning to get squeaky. Calls lawyer.

Reads comments, doesn't understand original post: Makes pointless snarky comment

[P K]

I actually sent him there to look at that bike, but he didn't ask me to go with him.
As to your point, if you buy something that needs special attention & you can't really tell by looking at it (You can't really tell tubed from tubeless by looking & a new rider REALLY can't), it's basic service to inform your customer of those needs. - Look at the valve stem it's obviously different

To everyone saying it's been 18mo, forget about it. Look at this from the shop side.
You possibly sent a bike out improperly set up. It didn't cause an issue this time, but we all know the times we live in. Next time? Maybe a lawsuit if they did set up non-tubeless as tubeless. Wouldn't you want to know so you can correct the process? - A lawsuit for one flat in 18 months, you can't possibly be serious

You missed a sale, an easy one, on accessories & that's where you make your money. Wouldn't you want to educate your sales people so you can continue to have sales people? - A sale of an inner tube? GTFO

You failed to give a customer all the info he needed & now he's going to tell the story (Of course he is. So would you). - He's going to tell the story about how he got one flat in 18 months and didn't know how to fix it? or that he didn't know he was set-up tubeless? He's going to look like an entitled, whiny douche when he tells that story

Which ending do you want out there - I went back in and they apologized & did what they could to make it right. They couldn't figure out how it happened, but they took care of it? Or I bought & tossed in a couple of tubes & everything was fine, but man I don't know if I trust those guys? - The shop has the responsibilty to give great service, the customer has the responsiblity not to be a dick, he never went back to the shop in 18 months? he never told them he doesn't even know how to change a tube? you had the chance to mentor your newbie relative and didnt?......and now you're upset with the shop, unbelievable

The story will help sell tubeless, for sure. 18mo without doing anything but adding air? Sign me up! It's still a fail by the shop, however.

My mind is just blown that you would think this is fail

[ergott]

Could you maybe show a pic of tire and bike/wheels? The Sagan bikes I know of is the Venge and those come with Turbo cotton tires.

Unless I'm mistaken bikes like those don't come out of the box with tubeless and sealant set up since they don't know when the bike will be sold and it would most likely dry up in transit. They typically come with clinchers and tubes. I don't see why a shop would bother taking the time to install a different tire and tubeless no less unless there was some other reason.

Some information is missing here.

[Gummee]

Some information is missing here.
There's always 3 sides to every story

M

[tomato coupe]

I think your nephew should buy a tube, install it, and ride the damn bike. (Which is the same thing he would have to do if he didn't have tubeless tires.)

[ultraman6970]

THats when my theory of swapped wheels or even a returned bike from somebody comes around. ANd if that was the case probably the LBS after 18 months dont remember the details at all.

I worked putting computers together like 25/30 years ago, and remember a costumer calling because the cdrom did not work, he explained the problem and happened that he did not notice because he did not check it out after 2 years when he tried to play a music CD in the computer.

After 2 years was not warranty but we look at it anyways, one cable was disconnected... second option was to take that computer in and sell him a new one :P

[Gummee]

Yikes. I also don't care for people trying to blame the person something happened to.
"Personal accountability"? Really? Do you understand what that means?
Did he put the tires on the bike? No
Did he set them up as tubeless when they likely should not have been? No
Did he send it out the door without tubes in the tires? No
Did he sell the bike without properly going over BASIC care (and if the salesperson was worth half a crap, they'd have clued in on he's new at this)? No (And if you don't think that a shop should do this, you clearly have never worked in a bike shop. It was standard practice anytime I sold a bike to cover the basics - tire pressures, service intervals, and the like)
Was it a while ago? Yes. Does that change any of the above? No.
You seem to want to put the blame on him for not knowing he had a set up that required care he wasn't told about.
This is a GOOD shop in the area. They botched this one. Give them a chance to fix it.
After 18mos? No.

I'm with the personal responsibility thing. He's had PLENTY of time to do just a bit of research and hasn't.

Blaming the shop for something that lasted 18mos? No. It's like someone buying a car, then 18mos later blaming the dealership for the engine blowing up cause they didn't check the oil, and hadn't taken the car back to the dealer for anything, and it the oil was gone. At a certain point, it's on you. '...but they didn't tell me I needed to check the oil!'

IF that flat had happened in the first few months? Sure. I can see that. A year and a half?! Not a chance.

JRA story. Definitely

M

[AngryScientist]

Yikes. I also don't care for people trying to blame the person something happened to.
"Personal accountability"? Really? Do you understand what that means?
Did he put the tires on the bike? No
Did he set them up as tubeless when they likely should not have been? No
Did he send it out the door without tubes in the tires? No
Did he sell the bike without properly going over BASIC care (and if the salesperson was worth half a crap, they'd have clued in on he's new at this)? No (And if you don't think that a shop should do this, you clearly have never worked in a bike shop. It was standard practice anytime I sold a bike to cover the basics - tire pressures, service intervals, and the like)
Was it a while ago? Yes. Does that change any of the above? No.
You seem to want to put the blame on him for not knowing he had a set up that required care he wasn't told about.
This is a GOOD shop in the area. They botched this one. Give them a chance to fix it.


sorry bud, with all due respect, i totally disagree with all of your points.

[AngryScientist]

serious question:

did this bike come with an owners manual?

i just did a quick search and found an old Spec road bike manual that comes with new bikes, and read the following:

4. Tech
It’s important to your safety, performance and enjoyment to understand how
things work on your bicycle. We urge you to ask your dealer how to do the
things described in this section before you attempt them yourself, and that you
have your dealer check your work before you ride the bike. If you have even the
slightest doubt as to whether you understand something in this section of the
Manual, talk to your dealer. See also Appendix A, B, C and D.

while this is an old manual and doesnt cover tubeless, the basics are to inform the customer that they should know what they are doing...

i would be curious to see:

A) if the shop actually set-up a non-tubeless tire tubeless

B) which specific tires they are, and what the sidewall says about the min/max pressure.

C) if the current spec user's manuals provided with new bikes cover tubeless set-ups.

[avalonracing]

Reads comments, doesn't understand original post: Makes pointless snarky comment

Touché.

But in all seriousness, we aren't arguing religion or politics so no one is defending the shop due to some unknown LBS tribalism. You, along with the contrary commenters, are all cyclists therefore on the same "team". If this many of commenters think this isn't remotely an LBS fail, perhaps it isn't.

[makoti]

serious question:

did this bike come with an owners manual?

i just did a quick search and found an old Spec road bike manual that comes with new bikes, and read the following:



while this is an old manual and doesn't cover tubeless, the basics are to inform the customer that they should know what they are doing...

i would be curious to see:

A) if the shop actually set-up a non-tubeless tire tubeless

B) which specific tires they are, and what the sidewall says about the min/max pressure.

C) if the current spec user's manuals provided with new bikes cover tubeless set-ups.

No owners manual covers more than very general bike safety stuff. Newer ones may mention tubeless, but honestly I don't know if this one did.
If you read the original post I made (which I'm beginning to believe nobody has because everyone is fixated on the time as if that changes what the shop needed to do), I mentioned the tire. I looked it up & saw nothing about tubeless on any page I looked at.
That's the thing here. 18 day, 18 months doesn't change they set it up wrong (if they did. I told him to have them clarify that. If it IS tubeless ready, then they just needed to let him know how to refresh the sealant and they should know that they didn't. It's really simple)
Every thing was working, he's putting air in the tires, lubing the chain. He didn't need to "do anything" until this. He likely has a whopping 1500 miles on those tires, so all this about wear is moot (understand that here everyone does 400+ a month. Not everyone who rides is here).

And you disagree with all of them? You really don't understand responsibility.

[makoti]

Touché.

But in all seriousness, we aren't arguing religion or politics so no one is defending the shop due to some unknown LBS tribalism. You, along with the contrary commenters, are all cyclists therefore on the same "team". If this many of commenters think this isn't remotely an LBS fail, perhaps it isn't.

Understand, but I'm having a problem understanding how setting up non-tubeless tires as tubeless and sending it out the door without a word about tubeless care isn't a fail. Using non-tubeless on a Tubeless set up is a massive no-no per every tire and wheel company I know of. If someone can explain that, I'm good. Otherwise, since I didn't name the shop, this isn't an effort to smear a shop. I want him to go back in to help them not do this to someone else. They will never know it happened if he says nothing.

[P K]

The bike doesn't come set up tubeless out of the box, Spesh put's tubeless stems in a little bag included with the manual etc.

The shop setting it up tubeless could almost be considered an upgrade, but you do have a point if it was on non-tubeless tires - there definitely is some facts missing here

I think the 18 months does matter in this story. That is plenty of time for you or your relative to uncovered this "great deception" from the bike shop and also a ton of missed "learning moments" passed you guys by in those 18 months.

[makoti]

Touché.

But in all seriousness, we aren't arguing religion or politics so no one is defending the shop due to some unknown LBS tribalism. You, along with the contrary commenters, are all cyclists therefore on the same "team". If this many of commenters think this isn't remotely an LBS fail, perhaps it isn't.

Understand, but I don't get how setting up non-tubeless tires as tubeless (a massive no no per every tire/wheel company I know of) isn't seen as a problem.
But whatever. We'll handle it. It'll be fine.

[ultraman6970]

Makoti, the question you are asking about how is that the bike has tubeless probably wont have an answer from the shop specially if they did something to the bike previous to the sale. Shops do stuff like swapping stuff for clients, same happens in car dealers, as long as seals the deal they will do those changes. Again, they wont remember if the bike was used lightly, trade in or with swapped stuff, and if they know they wont tell a thing for sure... as i use to say... "the train already left years ago"... the shop will sell him new tires for sure, discount probably... but from there to free due to the inconvenience? I doubt it...

Probably was a used bike, who knows because u were not there... not blaming you because you are an outsider to the issue IMO. I do get you have blood related stuff running in there and sometimes you have to leave that out of the way you know. Some guys are harsh, im sometimes but that doesnt mean you wont be open to hear what they mean you know.

[foo_fighter]

Have you confirmed with your own eyes that it's set up tubeless?
Something still doesn't add up here. Send a link to the exact model of bike? There aren't that many Sagan collection bikes....probably not a hotwalk but probably not a 10K Venge or tarmac either. A Specialized Espoir Sport tire would not be on a Sagan road bike stock. It's a wire bead, I'm not even sure it would hold air in a tubeless setup....certain at 105psi would be a stretch.

Are you sure he wasn't asking where the spare tube is? Does he ride around with a spare tube, levers, patch kit, co2 and pump? Even with a tubeless setup he should have already had all those things on bike. If so, then, the procedure for fixing a flat is no different than with a tubeless setup, just less messy.
(dynaplug and patch n ride excepted.)

[Rusty Luggs]

I happened to have a Fuji bicycle owners manual kicking around, probably 5 years old. It has 3 pages devoted to tubeless tires, installation, removal, etc. Interestingly, there is no discussion of sealant.

[adub]

@ Makoti,

Maybe I missed it, but what brand and model of bike was this?

[quickfeet]

The best part about this 5 page thread bashing a bike shop is that literally all the info is second hand.

After spending A BUNCH of years working in bike shops I’d be willing to bet all the money that the lbs either asked the kid if he wanted his bike set up tubeless and he just doesn’t remember (it’s been 18 months!) or we are hearing a kid ask where do the tubes go, and are hearing, OMG THERE ARE NO TUBES!? It’s a pain to keep a tubeless bike on the sales floor, that’s why no one does it.

Also, sealant in Road tubeless is not mandatory, so setting without it is not the end of the world.

There are no non-tubeless tires that will actually set up, hold air, and do it without a catastrophic failure for a week much less 18mo. You’d have to air up a standard clincher multiple times a ride if it was set up tubeless. I’d tell you to try it but with random lawsuit accusations being thrown around here maybe I’ll hold off lol.

[Peter P.]

I say to buy a bike of such a level of sophistication, the BUYER should be aware of the particulars of the technology. And I agree with what was said earlier, 18 months of trouble-free service before a flat-at this point it's the nephew who bought more bike than he had the capability of owning. It's on him now.

[sipmeister]

I say to buy a bike of such a level of sophistication, the BUYER should be aware of the particulars of the technology. And I agree with what was said earlier, 18 months of trouble-free service before a flat-at this point it's the nephew who bought more bike than he had the capability of owning. It's on him now.

+1.

Additionally, I don't remember what conversation I had with my LBS I was at 1.5 years ago. I doubt most people memorize that stuff either. And does this victim of LBS indecency have continuous video footage of the bike in question going back 1.5 years to prove nobody tinkered with the bike since it was last serviced? Because that's the only way to prove the shop is liable for potential neglect.
Time for people to be responsible. Not ignorant.

[Clancy]

Seems like the LBS should have alerted a newbie that the tires were tubeless and taught him how to take care of flats, etc. That's their job, IMO. Beyond that, liability or expectation after 18 mos is another matter....

Totally agree as long the customer also takes responsibility to educate themselves, to ask questions and to become familiar with how the bike works.

Seems modern American society no longer emphasizes self-reliance or self responsibility. The local bike shop here offers free evening classes on basic riding and maintenance skills - very few new bike customers attend, maybe 1 in 10. Yet regularly customers come in with their bike after 3-4 months wondering why their tires are low on air never having pumped them up, not knowing the very basics of bike ownership. A few actually come in upset believing the tires are defective.

Ultimately I am responsible for myself. That includes teaching myself how to take care of the things that I possess or knowing how to get them taken care of.

There was was no bike shop failure here unless the bike shop ignore any request for information or knowledge.

[joosttx]

Understand, but I don't get how setting up non-tubeless tires as tubeless (a massive no no per every tire/wheel company I know of) isn't seen as a problem.
But whatever. We'll handle it. It'll be fine.

Karma can be a bitch, though.

[johnmdesigner]

How can you send your young men and women out into the world without "the talk"?
Tubeless vs. Tube.
Disc vs. Rim.
Etap vs. Mechanical.

Protection. It's all about protection.

[OtayBW]

How can you send your young men and women out into the world without "the talk"?
Tubeless vs. Tube.
Disc vs. Rim.
Etap vs. Mechanical.

Protection. It's all about protection.
You're talking rubber vs latex, right? :cool:

[makoti]

@ Makoti,

Maybe I missed it, but what brand and model of bike was this?

The bike is a Specialized. Not sure of model. The tires are the question. Espiro Sport. https://www.specialized.com/us/en/espoir-sport/p/155936
No mention of being tubeless

[Dave]

The bike is a Specialized. Not sure of model. The tires are the question. Espiro Sport. https://www.specialized.com/us/en/espoir-sport/p/155936
No mention of being tubeless

Definitely not tubeless tires. The rims must also be tubeless ready.

Ultimately, the owner should be prepared to fix a flat. I carry two tubes and two CO2 cartridges, so I'm confident that I will get home. I can't imagine riding that long without knowing what it requires to fix a flat.

[makoti]

Have you confirmed with your own eyes that it's set up tubeless?
Something still doesn't add up here. Send a link to the exact model of bike? There aren't that many Sagan collection bikes....probably not a hotwalk but probably not a 10K Venge or tarmac either. A Specialized Espoir Sport tire would not be on a Sagan road bike stock. It's a wire bead, I'm not even sure it would hold air in a tubeless setup....certain at 105psi would be a stretch.

Are you sure he wasn't asking where the spare tube is? Does he ride around with a spare tube, levers, patch kit, co2 and pump? Even with a tubeless setup he should have already had all those things on bike. If so, then, the procedure for fixing a flat is no different than with a tubeless setup, just less messy.
(dynaplug and patch n ride excepted.)

No, but are you really thinking he couldn't find a tube inside a tire? Yeah, he is my nephew, but even he can do that.
He's been carrying an entire repair kit around with him.
It's all very strange, but while I might be the only one here, I feel making sure things are correct is a shops job when they send something out the door.
I'm not going to deny that 18 months is a long time after the fact to have to deal with this, but 18 months didn't change the tires he was sold with it or how they were set up.

Karma can be a bitch, though.

:rolleyes: I'm so worried they will be upset.

[joosttx]

No, but are you really thinking he couldn't find a tube inside a tire? Yeah, he is my nephew, but even he can do that.
He's been carrying an entire repair kit around with him.
It's all very strange, but while I might be the only one here, I feel making sure things are correct is a shops job when they send something out the door.
I'm not going to deny that 18 months is a long time after the fact to have to deal with this, but 18 months didn't change the tires he was sold with it or how they were set up.



:rolleyes: I'm so worried they will be upset.

Then why did you ask an entire Internet forum “if this is ok?” I would call “uncle” on this one.

::rim shot::

and I’m out on this one.

[makoti]

Definitely not tubeless tires. The rims must also be tubeless ready.

Ultimately, the owner should be prepared to fix a flat. I carry two tubes and two CO2 cartridges, so I'm confident that I will get home. I can't imagine riding that long without knowing what it requires to fix a flat.

Ok, last time.
This has nothing to do with CHANGING the tire. It went flat in his house. He knew, basically, what to do I believe. Never got a flat, so never needed to actually do it, as far as I know.
This isn't about needed maintenance.
This isn't about things wearing out.
The owner had what he needed. He was fine & prepared. When he took the tire off, he found he was sold something that required different care & never informed. He's new at this. Not everyone lives for bikes like we do. Really.
He would have done the refresh if told it was needed, I'm sure.
What bothers me is, even though every tire & wheel manufacturer say don't do it, the shop sent it out the door with these tires set up for tubeless.

[makoti]

Then why did you ask an entire Internet forum “if this is ok?” I would call “uncle” on this one.

::rim shot::

and I’m out on this one.

I don't believe I did which tells me you never read the original post, but whatever. I'm done with this topic. Thanks for all the input.

[AngryScientist]

Ok, last time.
This has nothing to do with CHANGING the tire. It went flat in his house. He knew, basically, what to do I believe. Never got a flat, so never needed to actually do it, as far as I know.
This isn't about needed maintenance.
This isn't about things wearing out.
The owner had what he needed. He was fine & prepared. When he took the tire off, he found he was sold something that required different care & never informed. He's new at this. Not everyone lives for bikes like we do. Really.
He would have done the refresh if told it was needed, I'm sure.
What bothers me is, even though every tire & wheel manufacturer say don't do it, the shop sent it out the door with these tires set up for tubeless.

this will be my last reply in this thread also, but:

what do you mean, it went flat in his house?

meaning, he could not air up the tire? where was air escaping?

you should confirm what he is describing. it may be unlikely, but i know i have had tubes that sat in tires for a long time stick hard to the inside of the tire, and maybe a noob would not realize what was going on. are there tubeless valves installed in the rim?

i find it hard to believe that a shop would set up a mid/low end tire tubeless like that, and it would hold air for 18 months trouble free. it's certainly not impossible, but unlikely.

ultimately - what do you expect the shop to do for you after all this time. what is reasonable to you? a couple tubes?

edit, also:

we're not arguing with you, really. it's just some perspective, no one is against you or your nephew. it may be worth just going through the thread yourself. i believe no one else in the thread believes this to be a LBS fail but you. once again, not saying you are wrong, but that is food for thought, i think. cheers.

[Dino Suegiù]

Reading this thread has made me tired.
I think I will try to re-energize by listening to that great Talking Heads song, "Burning Down the LBS".

[peanutgallery]

Roadies

LOLZ:)

[wc1934]

Ok, last time.
This has nothing to do with CHANGING the tire. It went flat in his house. He knew, basically, what to do I believe. Never got a flat, so never needed to actually do it, as far as I know.
This isn't about needed maintenance.
This isn't about things wearing out.
The owner had what he needed. He was fine & prepared. When he took the tire off, he found he was sold something that required different care & never informed. He's new at this. Not everyone lives for bikes like we do. Really.
He would have done the refresh if told it was needed, I'm sure.
What bothers me is, even though every tire & wheel manufacturer say don't do it, the shop sent it out the door with these tires set up for tubeless.

To me, this seems to be the crux of the matter. Espoir Sport are not tubeless tires yet the shop set them up as such. The length of time it took to discover this error is irrelevant.

[duff_duffy]

We need a like button for this one.

I'm sorry makoti. I can see your initial impression and a little bit of frustration, but i'm tired of the general trend towards lack of personal accountability that is happening today.

everything cant be someone else's fault.

https://revitalizationpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/personal-accountability.jpg

[choke]

I would say he got good use out of the product at the end of the day. As someone who has almost 20 years of shop experience under my belt, I would recommend going into the shop and talking with them and see how the conversation goes. Going in “guns blazing” pointing fingers is a good way to get fired as a customer from a shop.Maybe you didn't articulate what you meant well, but as written...wow. :eek: Frankly, any shop that feels that they can fire me as a customer is a shop that I probably don't want to give my business.

[R3awak3n]

I had to re-read the first post because I thought OP was talking ridiculous here. Ok, he is right about setting non tubeless tires tubeless, that should not be done.. EVER. A shop put too much pressure on my buddys tubeless tires and one blew off the rim and hurt him, that was BS. He is a newb and has no idea what tubeless even was. The LBS is definitely in the wrong on that BUT that said, its pretty impressive that those tires have held up, that funking 110PSI... not even real tubeless tires normally do that. Also, maybe LBS has done this before, many times and never had problems.... who knows... but the way I see it is 18 months, no problems. win.

[vincenz]

To me, this seems to be the crux of the matter. Espoir Sport are not tubeless tires yet the shop set them up as such. The length of time it took to discover this error is irrelevant.



Agree. To be devil’s advocate, let’s say a rider were caused bodily harm because of incorrect tire setup and it could be proven that the tires were set up incorrectly by the LBS, I think it would matter.

The way the situation is now, I think we’re lucky how good materials are these days that something like this can be used incorrectly and still not be disastrous. Someone to blame, on the other hand, is probably not on the OP’s side given the amount of time passed.

[quickfeet]

Man, I am going to write this again. We are not hearing a correct story. Non-tubeless tires cannot be set up and ridden for 18 months, especially not without sealant. Does. Not. Happen.

[vincenz]

but the way I see it is 18 months, no problems. win.

I wouldn’t call it a win. More like luck. That’s not a dice I would want to roll.

[old fat man]

Man, I am going to write this again. We are not hearing a correct story. Non-tubeless tires cannot be set up and ridden for 18 months, especially not without sealant. Does. Not. Happen.

Agreed. The OP made a claim about the tires with no pictures and no hands on involvement of his own. OP, until you go to your nephew and get hands on proof, this is all second hand nonsense.

[batman1425]

Man, I am going to write this again. We are not hearing a correct story. Non-tubeless tires cannot be set up and ridden for 18 months, especially not without sealant. Does. Not. Happen.

^^^ This... Heck, there are some tubeless tires on compatible rims with sealant that still have to be wrestled with to get a seal. Either this is a literal one in a million rim/tire combo or there were tubes in there and they were not obviously visible on first inspection.

FWIW - I've seen tubes that have more or less fused themselves to the tire, usually ones that have been in there a long time, like the OP suggests. If the tube is totally flat and user removes the tire and tube together, it can appear that there is no tube, and just a random valve stuck to the underside of the tire.

[Mike Lopez]

Might not make sense to some but it happens. It’s a business decision. Some folks are very difficult to please and after multiples encounters with a problem customer it’s best that they move on.

I used to ride with a guy who was never satisfied with any goods or services that required payment. He loved the freebies though until they caught on.

Ultimately he was fired from an Audi dealership, a Volvo dealership, several bike shops, and finally from our riding group. It was just too embarrassing to be with him when he went on a rant over nothing particularly important. Like pancakes or coffee etc.




Maybe you didn't articulate what you meant well, but as written...wow. :eek: Frankly, any shop that feels that they can fire me as a customer is a shop that I probably don't want to give my business.

[nmrt]

i am currently running a non tubeless tire with a tubeless rim. At first when I set it up, I did not use tubeless. The tire seated. But it deflated overnight. Then I added sealant. Even after the addition of sealant, the tire would deflate overnight. Until I kept adding sealant over the course of many days and then after two weeks or so, the tire finally seated. And has remained seated for six months now.

So, yes, i am surprised how a non tubeless tire got seated without sealant. i guess it could happen...

Man, I am going to write this again. We are not hearing a correct story. Non-tubeless tires cannot be set up and ridden for 18 months, especially not without sealant. Does. Not. Happen.

[quickfeet]

i am currently running a non tubeless tire with a tubeless rim. At first when I set it up, I did not use tubeless. The tire seated. But it deflated overnight. Then I added sealant. Even after the addition of sealant, the tire would deflate overnight. Until I kept adding sealant over the course of many days and then after two weeks or so, the tire finally seated. And has remained seated for six months now.

So, yes, i am surprised how a non tubeless tire got seated without sealant. i guess it could happen...

I guess I should say mtb and gravel tires MAY work, Road you’re just asking for death from blown beads. Also note the sheer volume of sealant it took to do this. Op says no sealant.

[OtayBW]

I used to ride with a guy who was never satisfied with any goods or services that required payment.
HAR! This cracked me up!
[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[wc1934]

^^^ This... Heck, there are some tubeless tires on compatible rims with sealant that still have to be wrestled with to get a seal. Either this is a literal one in a million rim/tire combo or there were tubes in there and they were not obviously visible on first inspection.

FWIW - I've seen tubes that have more or less fused themselves to the tire, usually ones that have been in there a long time, like the OP suggests. If the tube is totally flat and user removes the tire and tube together, it can appear that there is no tube, and just a random valve stuck to the underside of the tire.

Plausible - I've seen this with really old tires.

Pulling and reviewing the other tire should reveal the story.

[nmrt]

Yes, you are right. It was a gravel tire 700 X 40c. :)

QUOTE=quickfeet;2615367]I guess I should say mtb and gravel tires MAY work, Road you’re just asking for death from blown beads. Also note the sheer volume of sealant it took to do this. Op says no sealant.[/QUOTE]

[lemondvictoire]

Been reading 7 pages of this thread and can't seem to follow if user rode this bike or how many miles were ridden on these tires...?:confused:

[hokoman]

@ Makoti,

Maybe I missed it, but what brand and model of bike was this?

The bike is a Specialized. Not sure of model. The tires are the question. Espiro Sport. https://www.specialized.com/us/en/espoir-sport/p/155936
No mention of being tubeless


Maybe this one?

https://www.bikeway.com/product/specialized-allez-e5-elite-sagan-world-champion-edition-273573-1.htm

[eippo1]

Maybe this one?

https://www.bikeway.com/product/specialized-allez-e5-elite-sagan-world-champion-edition-273573-1.htm

Probably that one because I have the next one up the Tarmac Comp and it came with the Turbo tires.

[azrider]

When I got my first "real" bike I annoyingly asked my buddy and brother (both long time cyclists) every question about bike: What's this? What's that? What does this do? What does that do? Why is this like this? Why is that like that?

Get the gist?

It's called Caveat Emptor.

I find it sad this nephew of yours has elders who are teaching him to blame SOMEONE ELSE when it was this young mans job to know exactly what he was getting himself into in the first place. I believe it's also called personal responsibility.

So sad.

[benb]

Bikes are just like airplanes... you are the Pilot in Command.

You make all the decisions and you shoulder all the responsibility.

18 months is a long time to get curious about how your bike works, read the instruction manual, ask some questions at the LBS, ask some questions online, etc..

[makoti]

Been reading 7 pages of this thread and can't seem to follow if user rode this bike or how many miles were ridden on these tires...?:confused:

Guessing at less that 1800 (being generous, since I know he didn't ride all winter)

[charliedid]

Might not make sense to some but it happens. It’s a business decision. Some folks are very difficult to please and after multiples encounters with a problem customer it’s best that they move on.

I used to ride with a guy who was never satisfied with any goods or services that required payment. He loved the freebies though until they caught on.

Ultimately he was fired from an Audi dealership, a Volvo dealership, several bike shops, and finally from our riding group. It was just too embarrassing to be with him when he went on a rant over nothing particularly important. Like pancakes or coffee etc.

Unfortunate but true and I've been on the firing end a few times in my life.

I don't enjoy it one bit.

[m4rk540]

Maybe this one?

https://www.bikeway.com/product/specialized-allez-e5-elite-sagan-world-champion-edition-273573-1.htm

Bingo. Bike and tire identified. I'm with the tube stuck to tire theory.

[Jaybee]

Bingo. Bike and tire identified. I'm with the tube stuck to tire theory.

Agree with this. If you've ever tried to set up road tubeless, it seems nearly inconceivable that this tire/rim combo would hold a bead without sealant for 18 months at any pressure, let alone 100+ psi.

[m4rk540]

This thread should be immortalized not as an LBS fail or an underinformed witch hunt but a validation of modern manufacturing. This is a Specialized win. One, they make an affordable aluminum limited edition frame and you can ride nearly 2000 miles without a flat on their $30 clinchers. Take that tubulars!

[duff_duffy]

How dare the bike shop not put baby powder between the tire and tube before selling. Seriously, what were they thinking? I just wish my tires lasted 18 months between flats.


Bingo. Bike and tire identified. I'm with the tube stuck to tire theory.

[cloudguy]

How dare the bike shop not put baby powder between the tire and tube before selling. Seriously, what were they thinking? I just wish my tires lasted 18 months between flats.

Everyone is so hung up on the 18 months. NEWS FLASH: If you didn't ride your bike for 18 months, they would never get a flat. Also, if you only rode your bike 100 miles in 18 months, they likely wouldn't get a flat either. It's about the distance ridden, not the time. Sheesh. Also, if everyone knew how to change a flat tire on a bike, my guess is that most LBS's would go out of business. Yeah, it's simple, but most people are clueless.

[vincenz]

Everyone is so hung up on the 18 months. NEWS FLASH: If you didn't ride your bike for 18 months, they would never get a flat. Also, if you only rode your bike 100 miles in 18 months, they likely wouldn't get a flat either. It's about the distance ridden, not the time. Sheesh. Also, if everyone knew how to change a flat tire on a bike, my guess is that most LBS's would go out of business. Yeah, it's simple, but most people are clueless.

Location too. I put 3-4000 miles a year. I used to get flats every few months where I lived. I moved to another state and now I flat once every couple years.

[makoti]

FWIW - I've seen tubes that have more or less fused themselves to the tire, usually ones that have been in there a long time, like the OP suggests. If the tube is totally flat and user removes the tire and tube together, it can appear that there is no tube, and just a random valve stuck to the underside of the tire.

Ok, as embarrassing as this is...
I read this & thought, no, he wouldn't miss an entire tube. So I texted and asked him to look again, pull the entire tire off & guess what? Stuck to the inside of the tire. A tube.
He told me he had no tube & that the tire was really sticky, that it felt glued. Even got a picture that looked to me to show the top of a tubeless valve inside the tire. All of which said something that it wasn't.
Apologize for the fuss, but it wasn't what it appeared to be.
I feel like a total dope, but trying to help family, so I'll live.
Batman, you win the kewpie doll.

[Jaybee]

Ok, as embarrassing as this is...
I read this & thought, no, he wouldn't miss an entire tube. So I texted and asked him to look again, pull the entire tire off & guess what? Stuck to the inside of the tire. A tube.
He told me he had no tube & that the tire was really sticky, that it felt glued. Even got a picture that looked to me to show the top of a tubeless valve inside the tire. All of which said something that it wasn't.
Apologize for the fuss, but it wasn't what it appeared to be.
I feel like a total dope, but trying to help family, so I'll live.

Props to you for intellectual honesty and your willingness to admit you made a mistake. The world could use more of this.

:beer:

[Blue Jays]

Superb and detailed follow-up bicycle examination effort, makoti.
Providing the extra information obtained helps everyone. Good job.

[wc1934]

Batman1425 will now be known as Sherlock.
8 pages and you were the only one to solve the mystery.
Great call.

[Matthew]

Crap happens as they say. Lots of folks, myself included are quick to throw their thoughts into a discussion that may have been better to wait a bit. Glad in the end you can get a chuckle out of it.

[charliedid]

Ok, as embarrassing as this is...
I read this & thought, no, he wouldn't miss an entire tube. So I texted and asked him to look again, pull the entire tire off & guess what? Stuck to the inside of the tire. A tube.
He told me he had no tube & that the tire was really sticky, that it felt glued. Even got a picture that looked to me to show the top of a tubeless valve inside the tire. All of which said something that it wasn't.
Apologize for the fuss, but it wasn't what it appeared to be.
I feel like a total dope, but trying to help family, so I'll live.
Batman, you win the kewpie doll.

Sometimes the internet works :)

[AngryScientist]

hey now!

i called that on the page before batman!

haha,

no worries makoti. thanks for the honesty and the follow up.

say ten hail tulios. your sins are forgiven.

[HenryA]

And takin’ it like a grown up.

Amd you can kid your nephew about this for the next several decades.

[happycampyer]

hey now!

i called that on the page before batman!

haha,

no worries makoti. thanks for the honesty and the follow up.

say ten hail tulios. your sins are forgiven.

this will be my last reply in this thread also, but:

what do you mean, it went flat in his house?

meaning, he could not air up the tire? where was air escaping?

you should confirm what he is describing. it may be unlikely, but i know i have had tubes that sat in tires for a long time stick hard to the inside of the tire, and maybe a noob would not realize what was going on. are there tubeless valves installed in the rim?

i find it hard to believe that a shop would set up a mid/low end tire tubeless like that, and it would hold air for 18 months trouble free. it's certainly not impossible, but unlikely.

ultimately - what do you expect the shop to do for you after all this time. what is reasonable to you? a couple tubes?

edit, also:

we're not arguing with you, really. it's just some perspective, no one is against you or your nephew. it may be worth just going through the thread yourself. i believe no one else in the thread believes this to be a LBS fail but you. once again, not saying you are wrong, but that is food for thought, i think. cheers.bingfcukinggo

[wc1934]

hey now!

i called that on the page before batman!

haha,

no worries makoti. thanks for the honesty and the follow up.

say ten hail tulios. your sins are forgiven.

Oh Shoot - my bad. You called it first.
You are now AngryHolmes.

[Mike Lopez]

Kudos for the follow up!

It’s been an interesting thread to follow and in the seems to have worked out well in the end.

Could just as easily been my nephew. Keep encouraging him, if he’s interested, and if you can fit it in go riding with him and give him some pointers.


Props to you for intellectual honesty and your willingness to admit you made a mistake. The world could use more of this.

:beer:

[Ronsonic]

I used to ride with a guy who was never satisfied with any goods or services that required payment. He loved the freebies though until they caught on.

Ultimately he was fired from an Audi dealership, a Volvo dealership, several bike shops, and finally from our riding group. It was just too embarrassing to be with him when he went on a rant over nothing particularly important. Like pancakes or coffee etc.

The customer is always right.

Customer: a person to whom you sell goods and services in a mutually beneficial way.

[Mike Lopez]

How about when it’s not mutually beneficial?

How much time & expense should a business incur on a habitual “grinder” as they’re often called? That’s why I called it a business decision.

Before our riding group fired him he told us the stories about the dealerships and said they were very polite and professional. Something along the lines of “we don’t think we’re doing a good job of satisfying you so perhaps you should try elsewhere”. They didn’t say FO even though my guess is they’d have liked to.

Some businesses have the margins to support such decisions and manage to survive in spite of possible PR ramifications.

I’ve had a few difficult times with customers but have never outright fired one or quit a project mid way through. Not my style. I prefer to finish the project per the terms of the PO and move onto whatever’s next. Doesn't mean I have to accept another order though. Sometimes it’s just not worth it, thus the business decision.

I understand that not all businesses have that choice. Especially in highly competitive retail markets.

However I do not believe the customer is always right. My wife on the other hand...

The customer is always right.

Customer: a person to whom you sell goods and services in a mutually beneficial way.

[batman1425]

hey now!

i called that on the page before batman!

haha,

no worries makoti. thanks for the honesty and the follow up.

say ten hail tulios. your sins are forgiven.

Great minds think alike! I'm also a scientist so maybe there is something to that?

[charliedid]

The customer is always right.

Customer: a person to whom you sell goods and services in a mutually beneficial way.

The customer is not always right, no one is always right.

[Rusty Luggs]

So sure, good on OP for admitting he was wrong, but...
real lesson is about rushing to place blame when you don't have your facts straight. OP was insistent and argumentative throughout the thread.
Anyone remember the Emily Litella character from from SNL..."....Never Mind..."

[ultraman6970]

I have something to say about makoti... he is one of the funniest guys I've had the pleasure to ride with :D

[bikinchris]

The customer is always right.

Customer: a person to whom you sell goods and services in a mutually beneficial way.

Yeah, that's the mantra of business. However, sometimes a business is better off if that were some other business' customer.

[bikinchris]

The customer is not always right, no one is always right.

And the business is not always wrong for standing their ground.

It hurts to see how quickly people were to put ALL the blame on the bike shop.

[makoti]

I have something to say about makoti... he is one of the funniest guys I've had the pleasure to ride with :D

Thank you, good sir. We should do it again, soon.