Lotus is back on track, and it's weird [Archive]

Elefantino

10-31-2019, 06:30 AM

unterhausen

10-31-2019, 06:40 AM

I take it that's more aero and has been wind tunnel tested. But I also assume that a computer came up with that idea, because I would be really impressed if a person came up with that idea

makoti

10-31-2019, 06:42 AM

You could probably get 35's on that.

charliedid

10-31-2019, 06:44 AM

So much wind tunnel

Aaron O

10-31-2019, 06:47 AM

I’m assuming someone bought the brand?

I’ll stick with mine:

ftf

10-31-2019, 07:07 AM

Wow, it looks amazing.

Veloo

10-31-2019, 07:07 AM

Lighting and shape makes it look like loose nylon webbing.

Blue Jays

10-31-2019, 07:16 AM

They are opting for the big chainring.

nooneline

10-31-2019, 07:21 AM

GB has experimented with wide forks before on their UKSI/Katsanis bikes (and, interestingly enough there seem to be some design elements from the Katsanis bikes that GB has been using for, what, 15-20 years, that have made their way into these bikes.

Given the failure of the Cervelos that they used for the Rio 2016 Olympics (they were delivered on the eve of the Olympics, several broke, widespread frustrations apparently), I'm not surprised that these bikes are coming out for the World Cup season prior to the Olympics. Especially with some interesting, delicate-looking, and very custom parts - they want to race test them before taking them to Tokyo.

Anyway - they look ugly. Except for the handlebars, which look like combination sprint/enduro handlebars that are very aero and accommodate a sphinx position - likely that those are in 34cm, making them basically my dream handlebar.

https://www.ridemedia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Feature-2012.jpg

jamesau

10-31-2019, 07:22 AM

I kinda like the look, especially the fork, but wonder if the UCI might object. That fork design might act as a fairing (for the rider's legs).

BdaGhisallo

10-31-2019, 07:29 AM

I can see potential for some interesting happenings in sprint and keirin events with this frame. Riders often ride very close to each other and I can see a following rider getting their bars hooked in those chainstays.

Anyone know if there are any limits on how wide a bike frame can be for track use?

m_sasso

10-31-2019, 07:34 AM

Lots of new stuff for Tokyo, some of the Japanese are using DA road cranks on their track bikes, using the BDop adaptor, see the first rider or custom rings.

https://bdopcycling.com/product/bdop-track-adapter-110bcd144bcd-shimano-5-bolt/

https://i0.wp.com/morecadence.jp/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/4281.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/morecadence.jp/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/7435-1.jpg

Or these new Aussie bars!

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/1440x1366/20191017_142056_dfad1329a3afbe994a748bc3a68024bb88 d75680.png

pdonk

10-31-2019, 07:39 AM

Anyone know if there are any limits on how wide a bike frame can be for track use?

See https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/equipment/clarificationguideoftheucitechnicalregulation-2018-05-02-eng_english.pdf?sfvrsn=fd56e265_80)

for a copy of the "bike" rules, plus clarification notes.

The max width at the drop outs is 145 mm. The profiles and shape of tubes is also spelled out.

I have not been a commie for a long time, and mostly before this stuff really came into effect so am having a hard time interpreting what the rules actually mean. Gear inch /roll outs. saddle setback and angles of arms where relatively easy to understand and measure.

nooneline

10-31-2019, 07:39 AM

whoa - that's the first i've seen of those aussie bars. where'd you get that image?

that Bridgestone is slick - it's been trickling out in bits and pieces over the last few years and I love the look. Very refined.

Elefantino

10-31-2019, 07:41 AM

https://bikerumor.com/2019/10/31/hope-hb-t-x-lotus-3d-printed-ti-carbon-track-bike-is-british-cyclings-wild-olympic-secret-weapon/

FlashUNC

10-31-2019, 07:43 AM

Still less crazy than Felts bikes that had the cranks on the wrong side.

Tickdoc

10-31-2019, 07:49 AM

I’m assuming someone bought the brand?

I’ll stick with mine:

man I lusted for one of these back in the day. Sweet cherry pie oh yeah, this was my countach on the wall poster.

ultraman6970

10-31-2019, 07:56 AM

If they meet the specs I do not see why they couldn't use the bikes. Interesting shapes for sure! Like the bike...

BTW havent read the rules but i do not remember in the past that the rules say something about how the seat stays shape and angles, same with the forks.

I want to ride one :D

Elefantino

10-31-2019, 08:08 AM

Still less crazy than Felts bikes that had the cranks on the wrong side.

I was at the debut presser when USA Cycling announced those. There was all kinds of testing data an numerical gobbledygook that showed that those bikes would be faster than bullets.

Except they weren't.

Bentley

10-31-2019, 08:10 AM

I’m assuming someone bought the brand?

I’ll stick with mine:

Im assuming that this is the LOTUS car brand, they do design work on things like this, but that is just an assumption...

jpritchet74

10-31-2019, 08:14 AM

This bike is horrible looking and I (and I can't believe that I am saying this) hope that the UCI puts a stop to it.

I can't believe that it actually has the little UCI sticker on the frame......

nooneline

10-31-2019, 08:16 AM

I was at the debut presser when USA Cycling announced those. There was all kinds of testing data an numerical gobbledygook that showed that those bikes would be faster than bullets.

Except they weren't.

Team USA did set a world record on them though.

m_sasso

10-31-2019, 08:18 AM

GB has experimented with wide forks before on their UKSI/Katsanis bikes (and, interestingly enough there seem to be some design elements from the Katsanis bikes that GB has been using for, what, 15-20 years, that have made their way into these bikes.

Given the failure of the Cervelos that they used for the Rio 2016 Olympics (they were delivered on the eve of the Olympics, several broke, widespread frustrations apparently), I'm not surprised that these bikes are coming out for the World Cup season prior to the Olympics. Especially with some interesting, delicate-looking, and very custom parts - they want to race test them before taking them to Tokyo.

UCI mandates that to be eligible for the Olympics, equipment must be used in a number of World Cup events before the Olympics and also available to the public. No mention of pricing! Equipment being released now with less time to copy and reproduce before the Olympics however still time to race and qualify for the Olympics by racing at Belarus (1-3 November) and in Glasgow (8-10 November) World Cups.

David Kirk

10-31-2019, 08:48 AM

The wind tunnel data I've seen over the years shows that the areas of high drag are the fork crown area where the tire is spinning forward through a tight space while the air is rushing backward....and....the same area where the rear wheel passes forward through the seat stays. The attached flow of air "stuck" to the rim/tire combo gets stuffed through and into the air rushing rearward.

It looks as if Lotus is working hard to allow for room for the air attached to the rim/tire to pass with less restriction through the crown and stays.

Knowing Lotus the way I do I'd be shocked if it isn't lower drag and faster. It's going to be interesting to watch.

dave

weisan

10-31-2019, 08:50 AM

I know what my next aero gravel bike is gonna be...:rolleyes:

nooneline

10-31-2019, 08:53 AM

UCI mandates that to be eligible for the Olympics, equipment must be used in a number of World Cup events before the Olympics and also available to the public. No mention of pricing! Equipment being released now with less time to copy and reproduce before the Olympics however still time to race and qualify for the Olympics by racing at Belarus (1-3 November) and in Glasgow (8-10 November) World Cups.

yeah. it'll be interesting to see if these bikes actually become available to the public. I doubt it - Cervelo never actually sold the T5GB and British Cycling never actually sold its UKSI bikes. They pretended to, with a page on their website that basically said that you could try to buy one but they would never get around to making it for you.

I struggle to think if any federation flouts this rule in any similar way. Maybe FES - their track bikes are made by Germany's federation but I think I've seen one or two secondhand ones in the wild. Argon18s were developed for (I think) Denmark but pretty quickly made public. Other popular ultra-high end bikes from Cervelo, BT, LOOK, Avanti - all publicly purchasable.

Aaron O

10-31-2019, 08:55 AM

Im assuming that this is the LOTUS car brand, they do design work on things like this, but that is just an assumption...

That was my first thought...but look at the Lotus script.

martl

10-31-2019, 08:55 AM

I take it that's more aero and has been wind tunnel tested. But I also assume that a computer came up with that idea, because I would be really impressed if a person came up with that idea

the idea surely was to reduce the influence of the turbulence caused by the fork blades/seat stays to the airflow along the wheels. Have thought of that in the past, wouldn't have thought the notoriously strict reglement would allow that tbh. And then there's the question of aesthetics...

m_sasso

10-31-2019, 09:04 AM

charliedid

10-31-2019, 09:14 AM

I'm guess/assuming all that space translates into less turbulence all around?

Far out design

redir

10-31-2019, 09:18 AM

That's a nice sculpture there.

tuscanyswe

10-31-2019, 09:20 AM

These guys are touted as riding the new Zipp/Argon 18 Aussie track bikes, check the front forks.
Computer generated and wind tunnel testing is still a bit of black art, or we would have seen the perfect bike and F1 car long ago.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/366x480/screenshot_2019_10_22_at_16_13_53_adf4feeae4735ead 30ade99d54d0ba45bbe32c1c.jpeg

There was quite a cool clip about this in the latest f1 race. Well at least the swedish broadcast did a cool piece on it. Where something as basic as releasing paint (im gonna assume a special kind of paint) over the car and then see where this had spread after driving the car.

This seem pretty analogue and they explained it like they did this to see if the windtunnel testing result could be dublicated in the real world. Or thats how i understood it listening with one ear as i always do on the pre-race stuff..

This seemed to me indicate that windtunnel testing as you suggest is somewhat of a black art or they would not feel a need to dab some paint on the car to see where it would spread in the wind..

Andy sti

10-31-2019, 09:39 AM

^Unsteady aerodynamics

nooneline

10-31-2019, 09:39 AM

ultraman6970

10-31-2019, 09:40 AM

How long till trek makes a road bike like that lotus design???

GonaSovereign

10-31-2019, 03:40 PM

Im assuming that this is the LOTUS car brand, they do design work on things like this, but that is just an assumption...

Yes, this is a bike from the car brand, not the steel bike brand. This is the car brand's second bike. Many will remember the first, from '92:
https://images.wheels.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/1280px-Lotus_108_24281585325.jpg

Burnette

10-31-2019, 04:07 PM

The new Lotus/Hope bike for the Brits on the track.

3D printed frame with ti bits. Wow.

https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Hope-HB-T-Olympic-carbon-track-bike_3D-printed-titanium_unique-Lotus-designed-wide-legged-lightweight-track-bike_angled-front.jpg

You know what? I dig it. It's the result of a lot of work, it's under powerful athletes and it's in the environment it was designed for.

mt2u77

11-01-2019, 01:01 PM

Imagine the conversion possibilities. Aero track thingy by day, 26” fat bike by night?

FlashUNC

11-01-2019, 01:37 PM

That Ti seat lug gets me. Just looks so timeless.

OldCrank

11-01-2019, 03:47 PM

That is wild looking.

Carbon fiber meets fried wonton.

Like it.

Jef58

11-02-2019, 09:16 AM

This level of track bike, being designed for a specific purpose, does not have to be aesthetically pleasing by any means. All it has to do is give a top level athlete that extra nudge to medal. Even if I was able to buy one of these or a LOOK, I don't think I would like the price tag and ride qualities. I like how big R&D is put into this side of cycling.

Ruimteaapje

11-02-2019, 12:01 PM

Nothing as drastic as the Lotus, but the Dutch will also ride a new bike in Tokyo: the Koga Kinsei will replace the Koga Kimara they developed for the 2012 olympics.

https://racefietsblog.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/koga-tokyo-baanfiets-2.jpg
https://racefietsblog.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/koga-tokyo-baanfiets-4.jpg

cowgirl

11-02-2019, 06:43 PM

I’m assuming someone bought the brand?

I’ll stick with mine:

Howdy!

Your Lotus is not the same brand as this Lotus. Your Lotus was an American market only entry level Japanese made ke that were built for a few big bike shops in the 1980s. My pal Johnny has one! They were cheap half way decent bikes- but not anywhere near the level of a real Lotus.

This Lotus is the descendent of the English car company Lotus that also made those super carbon bikes that Chris Boardman used to ride.

And no one would ever trade your Lotus for anything made by the real Lotus so y'all needn't worry your pretty little head off!

m_sasso

11-02-2019, 11:45 PM

Nothing as drastic as the Lotus, but the Dutch will also ride a new bike in Tokyo: the Koga Kinsei will replace the Koga Kimara they developed for the 2012 olympics.

The new frame witch has been out for an excess of a year has not been well received by most of the sprinters. I am not aware of what the problems are with the Kinsei, however, sprinters are a meticulous bunch and really don't like giving up there trusted equipment just for something new unless there are verified benefits. Watch the World Cup this weekend and see what people are using, likely the Kimara is still tops.

Ruimteaapje

11-03-2019, 04:27 AM

What's your source? Apparently the team sprint guys were on two Kinei's and one Kimara and the two sprint finalists were both on Kinsei's two weeks ago in Apeldoorn...

https://media.nhnieuws.nl/cache/i/385000/images/385563.w1600.583a010.a4fa21e.q90.jpg
https://images.nrc.nl/GWvAHY23NrNiQWAINVRB_710bSw=/1280x/filters:no_upscale()/s3/static.nrc.nl/images/gn4/stripped/data50782055-e16806.jpg
https://images.nrc.nl/pXeBRXDX6hrdJJQ9eCyUOz_dbyc=/1280x/filters:no_upscale()/s3/static.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/web-1810spohoogland-wintjpg.jpg
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/sites/default/files/styles/liggend/public/ANP181019356-1.jpg?itok=qwXYSM_0

ultraman6970

11-03-2019, 06:00 AM

Is that theo bos in orange? or is another guy, if bos then he packed a few pounds.

nooneline

11-03-2019, 09:09 AM

The new frame witch has been out for an excess of a year has not been well received by most of the sprinters. I am not aware of what the problems are with the Kinsei, however, sprinters are a meticulous bunch and really don't like giving up there trusted equipment just for something new unless there are verified benefits. Watch the World Cup this weekend and see what people are using, likely the Kimara is still tops.

caught a quick glimpse of either Hoogland or Lavreyson on something slim that I didn't recognize, and I saw Bos on an Argon 18. Pretty interesting - BEAT has definitely used just about every high-end bike, I've seen them use Avantis, Kogas, BTs, and more (I think).

Ruimteaapje

11-03-2019, 02:06 PM

Is that theo bos in orange? or is another guy, if bos then he packed a few pounds.

Jeffrey Hoogland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Hoogland

bart998

11-03-2019, 02:07 PM

The wikipedia entry for Lotus bikes shows the brand went defunct in the mid-nineties, though the contract maker (Tsunoda) is still going strong ... the car company (Group Lotus) took over the rights to the name in 2000...

Howdy!

Your Lotus is not the same brand as this Lotus. Your Lotus was an American market only entry level Japanese made ke that were built for a few big bike shops in the 1980s. My pal Johnny has one! They were cheap half way decent bikes- but not anywhere near the level of a real Lotus.

This Lotus is the descendent of the English car company Lotus that also made those super carbon bikes that Chris Boardman used to ride.

And no one would ever trade your Lotus for anything made by the real Lotus so y'all needn't worry your pretty little head off!

m_sasso

11-03-2019, 02:29 PM

Lotus is an English engineering entity founded by an entrepreneurial engineer named Colin Chapman, that was/is best know for designing cars. Jim Clark, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi, and Mario Andretti all won Formula 1 world championships driving Lotus cars. The first car I owned was a Lotus Elan SE. The bicycle company also named Lotus, however is/was completely unrelated.

Lotus the engineering firm is the current sponsor, partial designer of the new track bike.

m_sasso

11-12-2019, 02:50 PM

More interesting track components for the coming Olympics, https://cyclingtips.com/2019/11/bastion-reveals-3d-printed-parts-for-australias-2020-olympic-track-campaign/

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Bastion-Engineering-Cycling-Australia-track-team-collab-4.jpg

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Prova-Ripido-Party-Ti-hardtail-prototype-handmade-bicycle-show-australia-2019-7.jpg

zzy

11-12-2019, 03:13 PM

why in god's name won't shimano put out a hollowtech track crank. esp for the tokyo olympics.

FlashUNC

11-12-2019, 03:22 PM

why in god's name won't shimano put out a hollowtech track crank. esp for the tokyo olympics.

Too busy developing the 2020 Olympics commemorative fishing reel.

m_sasso

12-15-2019, 03:37 AM

A nice write up on a lot of the new track equipment that showed up at the Cambridge World Cup over the 6-8th. Worth a read and look, no faster fat 25mm tires here!:p

https://www.velobike.co.nz/blog//new-tech

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bef8b14e74940effe940620/1576356586544-ON9F91GQA2LLVZI9EW3W/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFmfxoboNKufWj-55Bgmc-J7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725 yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0iXS6XmVv7bUJ418E8Yoc1h juviiiZmrL38w1ymUdqq4JaGeFUxjM-HeS7Oc-SSFcg/Bastion+Cycles+3D+Printed+endurance+bars+%28Image+ by+Eugene+Bonthuys%29?format=1500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bef8b14e74940effe940620/1576356991867-0XJAOU8ZI7ZSEOXEWH0K/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEzh15s2pMwoA5QHR0xlksl7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0hHMyhIh2kKzuOL3ydJCryA wAq-tfFSlwZ9-jYXxcq9vwr2sIchWyw5aFAO8SPhVfg/Matthew+Glaetzer%27s+Argon+18+Sprint+bike+and+fork ?format=1500w

wallymann

12-15-2019, 08:04 AM

this was my favorite cost-no-object national team track-bike.

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/the-revolutionary-project-96-gt-superbike-and-its-lasting-impact-on-bicycle-engineering/

m_sasso

12-15-2019, 11:34 AM

One of the big changes that is not being openly written or spoken about is the re-emergence of Campagnolo and Corima wheels away from Mavic. Almost everyone has made the move, why?

nooneline

12-15-2019, 01:33 PM

One of the big changes that is not being openly written or spoken about is the re-emergence of Campagnolo and Corima wheels away from Mavic. Almost everyone has made the move, why?

Well one reason is that Mavic doesn't sponsor any national programs, I think.
Also with easier, cheaper access to aerodynamic testing, a lot of people are realizing that despite Mavic's strengths - they're very stiff, very strong, and very reliable (the disc is incredibly thick; I've heard stories of people getting holes in them from crashes and slapping bondo over it) - people are learning that there are better alternatives, and other companies are finding a strong path to offering competitive alternatives.

I think there was a time that nobody would really bother making high-end track gear, but now there are just a lot more in the market. I wonder how much of it is connected to national programs realizing that there's a decent chance for ROI when they take aim at olympics medals on the track - they can put together a program and have a company make some wheels (like USA with HED on the Felt TA FRD) and that's how a new product line emerges...

Personally, I'm more interested in the development of a whole new array of madison/sphinx bars. I'd love to see something commercially available, in 34cm.

cowgirl

12-16-2019, 12:19 AM

One of the big changes that is not being openly written or spoken about is the re-emergence of Campagnolo and Corima wheels away from Mavic. Almost everyone has made the move, why?

It ain't got nothing to do with what anyone has guessed. The reason is that Look used to supply almost all the federations with equipment and they had a great relationship with Mavic.

Look still supplies a lot of bikes, but they recently bought Corima so all the Look bikes are designed around and supplied with Corima now. That accounts for nearly all the Corima increase and nearly all the Mavic decrease.

Campagnolo has always had their Ghiblis on a bunch of bikes and still does.

Hope this makes sense to y'all!

m_sasso

12-16-2019, 02:20 AM

Personally, I'm more interested in the development of a whole new array of madison/sphinx bars. I'd love to see something commercially available, in 34cm.

It is my understanding 3T has stopped production of the Scatto's so hopefully something interesting is in the works?

If anyone watched Brisbane there was a very large mix of Corima front wheels and Campagnolo rear wheels. The new Ghiblis are substantially lighter than previous years Campagnolo wheels and I would assume the new Corima's are again lighter than the IO's.

All these wheels are fast however track people are a suspicious group and if you didn't have Mavic wheels before you lost the psych war before the race even got started.

Campagnolo has always had their Ghiblis on a bunch of bikes and still does.

If you watched Brisbane, you would likely agree the percentage of competitors on Campagnolo wheels is way higher than previous years World Cup events, there is a definite observable change in the number of Campagnolo wheels competitors are using.

nooneline

12-16-2019, 08:00 AM

All these wheels are fast however track people are a suspicious group and if you didn't have Mavic wheels before you lost the psych war before the race even got started.

At other high levels there were (and still are) a lot more alternatives to Mavic in the field - I'm thinking UCI racing just below the World Cups, and sixdays with top-tier talent.

But two funny things about Mavic's reputation as being hands down the fastest - one is that for a long time it was a clear and observable phenomenon at the WC level, and two is that of the world-level trackies I've raced with(/against), none gave an indication that they cared or actually believed it. And yet, even the privateers managed to get their hands on an io/comete for a trip to a world cup or champs.

cowgirl - great info. i think i missed the news that Look bought Corima, or it didn't register, but certainly explains their new product push over the last few years.

ultraman6970

12-16-2019, 10:40 AM

I love the track but im like getting tired of seeing all of this martian bikes and tech, not that i do not like it but i miss the races in old steel, box profile wheelsets and stuff... everybody with 50/51x15....

Just like with the tour... they should come up with a classic style track world cup aswell... that would be interesting to see.

What do you think joooxxxxxxx

FlashUNC

12-16-2019, 11:35 AM

If you watched Brisbane, you would likely agree the percentage of competitors on Campagnolo wheels is way higher than previous years World Cup events, there is a definite observable change in the number of Campagnolo wheels competitors are using.

I hope they changed the Ghibli manufacturing process. They were pretty open about the fact it was just one guy at the Vicenza factory making those wheels. If not, that's a helluva lot of overtime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Tc6BPOLgE