Pro's Closet - Lack of info

[scottcw2]

I've come across a couple of bikes at TPC that I might be interested in, but they only provide ST, TT, and standover measurements.

I contacted them for some angles and other measurements and their response was, "those measurements are not available."

Are they seriously not going to take the time to take measurements that any competent bike shop could do when selling $3K+ bikes? Does anyone else find this a deal breaker?

[Lanternrouge]

I think they pack up the bikes for shipping after creating the listings and don't want to unpack them to take measurements.

[tctyres]

I've asked them about measurements, too. The responses you got are in line with my experience. I'm pretty sure they don't know how to use a tape measure.

[veggieburger]

Their reply isn't great....but at the same time, anyone with a functioning web browser should be able to find out angles etc from posted geometry charts, no?

[jtbadge]

Their reply isn't great....but at the same time, anyone with a functioning web browser should be able to find out angles etc from posted geometry charts, no?

Sure, but they're often posting bikes with custom geo, or not providing enough information to match against a geo chart.

[Clean39T]

I think they pack up the bikes for shipping after creating the listings and don't want to unpack them to take measurements.Exactly. Factor the dice-roll and returns policy into your willingness to pay. The market will sort it out from there......

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[denapista]

I think they pack up the bikes for shipping after creating the listings and don't want to unpack them to take measurements.

This. I really want that Baum, but after adding ebay tax (Upwards to $200), Shipping and then getting astronomical quotes from Baum to repaint it... I'd be looking at $4500-5300 for a used frame that could be a noodle, since they won't share the serial number to confirm with baum about the tubing. I'm not even factoring in the shipping charges to AUS from LA.

I emailed for the serial number, and was told that the SN would only be provided after purchase. That frame could have been made for a guy weighing 145lbs..

[scottcw2]

I emailed for the serial number, and was told that the SN would only be provided after purchase. That frame could have been made for a guy weighing 145lbs..

Yeah, I was told no serial number also, "for privacy reasons." :rolleyes:

[Clean39T]

Regardless, I'm heavily tempted to buy this Parlee (https://www.theproscloset.com/products/parlee-z-zero-custom-road-bike-2015-large-tall) and take the bling of my Firefly to ungodly levels with those wheels, brakes, crank, bars, saddle, etc. Sell off the rest... Spicy investment, but lots of value there.

[scottcw2]

Sure, fit isn't a concern with parts.

[Pegoready]

Give em a break, they have 500+ bikes listed plus about 100 frames. They take incredible photos so telling the angles should be somewhat visual, at least within a degree.

Based on the reply Baum gave Molly about letting the SN out to second hand buyers, I'm not surprised they don't let serial #'s out. It could potentially expose their clients to a nastygram from the builder and poor future interactions.

Shop for a discount bike and you get the experience to match. That's the roll of the dice when getting a used bike for a 1/5 of its retail price.

[Clean39T]

Give em a break, they have 500+ bikes listed plus about 100 frames. They take incredible photos so telling the angles should be somewhat visual, at least within a degree.

Based on the reply Baum gave Molly about letting the SN out to second hand buyers, I'm not surprised they don't let serial #'s out. It could potentially expose their clients to a nastygram from the builder and poor future interactions.

Shop for a discount bike and you get the experience to match. That's the roll of the dice when getting a used bike for a 1/5 of its retail price.+1

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[scottcw2]

I'd love to see someone calculate angles within a degree using pictures on a computer.

[denapista]

+1

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I simply stated a fact, not that it was bad or good.. I can see why they wouldn't want to field over 1000 emails and phone calls about inventory. Time sucks...

That Baum looks to be the one that Above Category built for someone in 2012 and it's posted on their blog from that time. It's just hard buying one of their frames second hand, knowing they spec tubing for weight.. All the more reasoning, going with a used Moots seems to be the best Ti option on the 2nd hand market.

Also if you don't have enough info on one of their bikes, it's just easier to walk away from it and find the bike you truly want and have all of the info on..

[rallizes]

Right here

“Shop for a discount bike and you get the experience to match. That's the roll of the dice when getting a used bike for a 1/5 of its retail price.”

[jtbadge]

Shop for a discount bike and you get the experience to match. That's the roll of the dice when getting a used bike for a 1/5 of its retail price.

People here are certainly spoiled by sellers on Paceline classifieds bending over backwards to give away their bikes for no money.

[Pegoready]

I'd love to see someone calculate angles within a degree using pictures on a computer.

Not trying to be argumentative, but you can get free angle apps on your smartphone. I just measured the angle on a stock KHS they listed so there is a reference to a stock geo chart. It measures dead on 73° just measuring off the computer screen just like the geo chart.

Since the pictures are so clear and completely side-on with wheels level, you can just stick your phone up to the computer screen. If you're really anal, you can print the photo and measure it with a protractor.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kVa1K9VSS9d795NMj-3PT2x7opx_DAwbUhAaKW13ZnyQDYiuMii_w77z_rP24wa6jfc= w412-h220-rw

[chiasticon]

Are they seriously not going to take the time to take measurements that any competent bike shop could do when selling $3K+ bikes? Does anyone else find this a deal breaker?what's the process for a shop to measure seat and head tube angles? seriously, I'd love to know an accurate way to do it. seems pretty easy to introduce enough error, you're off by a half-degree or more, which is a lot.

I get TPC's approach though, they just take what info is easy to get and let the market dictate the rest. then pack up and shelve the bike, and shove the box out the door when it sells.

it annoys me more when someone sells a custom bike (especially one made for them) without providing geometry details. if it's yours, you should have them. if not, you should be able to get them from the builder. even if it costs you a few bucks, it's money well-spent when expecting people to pay thousands for these things. but we're talking about private sellers here, not TPC where these bikes are just commodities to them.

[duff_duffy]

Having sold my fair share of high end used bikes I have learned the more detailed measurements results in less sales, not more. I’m guessing they have discovered this as well. Probably counterintuitive to this group but that’s the reality I discovered after selling off my collection (north of 50+ titanium and steel bikes).

[mt2u77]

Assuming a reasonably square non-distorted picture (and TPC's pics are good), and a couple of reference measurements (ST, TT, wheel diameter etc), it's easy enough to find all the other angles and lengths. You can use any of a number of simple image processing programs to find the pixel count between two points and calibrate to the known dimension.

Personally, unless it's on the frame builder's drawing or from someone I trust, I double check all the measurements myself anyway.

[scottcw2]

Having sold my fair share of high end used bikes I have learned the more detailed measurements results in less sales, not more. I’m guessing they have discovered this as well. Probably counterintuitive to this group but that’s the reality I discovered after selling off my collection (north of 50+ titanium and steel bikes).

This make sense because a buyer might miss something based on more general info.

Having wasted money on bikes that don't fit, I won't buy without detailed measurements and angles or a build sheet.

[chiasticon]

Having sold my fair share of high end used bikes I have learned the more detailed measurements results in less sales, not more. I’m guessing they have discovered this as well.right but they have a solid return policy, right? so being off on measurements and the buyer ending up with a bike that doesn't fit means the bike is back in their warehouse, and they have to re-list it.

they should just get a grid with a bottom bracket mount at the 0,0 position. pop a frame directly onto it or pull the crank quickly before mounting a full build. gives you a rough idea then at least.

[Clean39T]

Also if you don't have enough info on one of their bikes, it's just easier to walk away from it and find the bike you truly want and have all of the info on..

True. Or wait for them to drop the price to where it works for you - which could mean missing out on it, but that's just the name of the game.





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[Clean39T]

right but they have a solid return policy, right? so being off on measurements and the buyer ending up with a bike that doesn't fit means the bike is back in their warehouse, and they have to re-list it.



they should just get a grid with a bottom bracket mount at the 0,0 position. pop a frame directly onto it or pull the crank quickly before mounting a full build. gives you a rough idea then at least.That's a pretty brilliant idea actually. Build an easy tool to line the bikes up on, and caveat with "measurements may be off slightly".

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[jr59]

This make sense because a buyer might miss something based on more general info.

Having wasted money on bikes that don't fit, I won't buy without detailed measurements and angles or a build sheet.

Then go buy a stock bike, or have one made for you.

I don’t get the problem here. Buying from places like the PC at a small fraction of the cost new, yet want the new service? Good luck there my friend.

[duff_duffy]

I thought they were providing accurate measurements, just not many of them the poster was looking for. The return policy is good if product not as described, leaving off info may not count if description was accurate.





right but they have a solid return policy, right? so being off on measurements and the buyer ending up with a bike that doesn't fit means the bike is back in their warehouse, and they have to re-list it.

they should just get a grid with a bottom bracket mount at the 0,0 position. pop a frame directly onto it or pull the crank quickly before mounting a full build. gives you a rough idea then at least.

[duff_duffy]

On a side note I have been impressed with the PC’s service provided on two recent purchases. Well packed, great communication, shipped fast..exactly as described (conservative with their condition description).

[tctyres]

I thought they were providing accurate measurements, just not many of them the poster was looking for.

No. Their measurements are off and seem to be measured from somewhere to somewhere else, which may or may not have something to do with the frame that is pictured in the ad.

[scottcw2]

Then go buy a stock bike, or have one made for you.

I don’t get the problem here. Buying from places like the PC at a small fraction of the cost new, yet want the new service? Good luck there my friend.

Measuring angles, lengths, and BB drop would maybe take about 10 min. That's hardly "new service."

[duff_duffy]

Then I’d just buy and return if measurements are off!

No. Their measurements are off and seem to be measured from somewhere to somewhere else, which may or may not have something to do with the frame that is pictured in the ad.

[scottcw2]

Then I’d just buy and return if measurements are off!

Store credit only on returns.

[duff_duffy]

10 minutes here, then next person wants a slightly different measurement, they want it double checked x 100 bikes they have suddenly starts taking tons of time. I get wanting the details, but selling lots of used stuff takes time. If it would lead to more sales than I believe they would invest the time/energy to do it.

Measuring angles, lengths, and BB drop would maybe take about 10 min. That's hardly "new service."

[duff_duffy]

I was never one for details;)

Store credit only on returns.

[jr59]

Measuring angles, lengths, and BB drop would maybe take about 10 min. That's hardly "new service."

As is their price. You want the discount? Deal with the service you get.

In other words, if you don’t like the services they provide, go find what you desire elsewhere. Everything has a cost. This is the way they choose to do business, and they price accordingly.

[nmrt]

4K for a 12K bike is still 4K!
And 4K still is a lot of money. I do not care if the bike is used or not, it is still 4K and for my 4K, I need the angles etc especially if it is a custom frame and I cannot google for the geometry.

I really do not understand why one needs to use the retail price of the new bike or frame to figure what kind of service to give to the customer of a used bike.

As is their price. You want the discount? Deal with the service you get.

In other words, if you don’t like the services they provide, go find what you desire elsewhere. Everything has a cost. This is the way they choose to do business, and they price accordingly.

[Clean39T]

Store credit only on returns.

Unless purchased through eBay from their eBay store.....at which point you can stack things like eBay bucks or other promos.....though sometimes bikes are listed first (and cheaper) on their site..

[scottcw2]

4K for a 12K bike is still 4K!
And 4K still is a lot of money. I do not care if the bike is used or not, it is still 4K and for my 4K, I need the angles etc especially if it is a custom frame and I cannot google for the geometry.

I really do not understand why one needs to use the retail price of the new bike or frame to figure what kind of service to give to the customer of a used bike.

A voice of reason penetrates the gloom.

Thank you.

[Peter P.]

A lot of good information here.

Customers want all the pertinent dimensions but TPC doesn't provide them, and won't take the time or doesn't want the responsibility with being wrong.

It's obvious to me that TPC could do better to increase their sales by providing this info but sounds like they're more interested in quick turnaround.

I learned a lot reading this thread.

Customers who balk at these incomplete descriptions, while lusting at those bargains, should shop elsewhere. The market will speak.

FYI, I use a Tilt Box II (http://www.bealltool.com/products/measuring/tiltbox.php) for measuring bike angles. Accurate enough.

[scottcw2]

FYI, I use a Tilt Box II (http://www.bealltool.com/products/measuring/tiltbox.php) for measuring bike angles. Accurate enough.

That's a nice option. I just use the measure app on my iPhone.

[prototoast]

4K for a 12K bike is still 4K!
And 4K still is a lot of money. I do not care if the bike is used or not, it is still 4K and for my 4K, I need the angles etc especially if it is a custom frame and I cannot google for the geometry.

I really do not understand why one needs to use the retail price of the new bike or frame to figure what kind of service to give to the customer of a used bike.

It's not that your expectations are in themselves unreasonable, it's just that you're thinking about this from a particular bike, and they're trying to manage a flow of bikes. They have a process that involves taking in a bike, inspecting it, measuring it, photographing it, and boxing it up. For most of the bikes they sell, this works fine. In a few cases, they probably needed to do more to sell it at the price they originally targeted, such as taking better measurements, but once a bike has been boxed up, it really isn't cost-effective to dig it out for more measurements, especially if those won't guarantee a sale.

Any bike that sits on their shelves too long signals that they did something wrong with that particular bike, but at that point, it's easier for them to just lower the price than to restructure their entire operation.

[FlashUNC]

How big is the area where the chickens are allowed to roam free?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G__PVLB8Nm4

For realz. They give you a few numbers, if you're not comfortable dropping four large on a frame based on those numbers and they don't have the time or interest in providing them, then time to move on.

Otherwise you're just asking for Colin's papers before you go to check out the farm.

[oldpotatoe]

Give em a break, they have 500+ bikes listed plus about 100 frames. They take incredible photos so telling the angles should be somewhat visual, at least within a degree.

Based on the reply Baum gave Molly about letting the SN out to second hand buyers, I'm not surprised they don't let serial #'s out. It could potentially expose their clients to a nastygram from the builder and poor future interactions.

Shop for a discount bike and you get the experience to match. That's the roll of the dice when getting a used bike for a 1/5 of its retail price.

Gotta agree..walking behind the 'cutain' in either of their warehouses and you 'may' see why..they have hundreds and hundreds of bikes and frames hanging up..
Are they seriously not going to take the time to take measurements that any competent bike shop could do when selling $3K+ bikes?

Well, even a great big bike shop may have a 1 or 2% of the rigs that PC has..Plus, they aren't really a 'bike shop', per se.......
They give you a few numbers, if you're not comfortable dropping four large on a frame based on those numbers and they don't have the time or interest in providing them, then time to move on.

I think they DO have an interest but don't have the time, people, capacity to do a exact measurement, particularly on a frameset..which is a lot more time consuming and difficult ..Than a complete bike.

[notsew]

I suspect they are providing enough service to keep the bikes moving on out the door. I doubt the extra time of dealing with a bunch measurements would appreciably change the sale time or profits.

Probably just not worth it for them.

[huck*this]

Regardless, I'm heavily tempted to buy this Parlee (https://www.theproscloset.com/products/parlee-z-zero-custom-road-bike-2015-large-tall) and take the bling of my Firefly to ungodly levels with those wheels, brakes, crank, bars, saddle, etc. Sell off the rest... Spicy investment, but lots of value there.

Easily a $20,000.00 bike also I think those parts are all within a year old. Wonder what happen there?

[Hank Scorpio]

I had a comical experience trying to buy a bike from TPC this past August/September. They had a Factor One Chpt3 edition in really nice shape. It was listed on eBay and their own site for a little less than eBay. I used the make an offer option on eBay to make several offers gradually approaching but not surpassing the listed price on their private site. I think my final offer was about $100-200 off that price. The declined each time, which I am totally fine with, BUT the very next day after I made my final offer and it was rejected the bike was marked down below my offer on both sites?!?! I was still in the market and even emailed them to ask what was up. I was given some mealy mouth excuse that it is two different departments and the one that handles eBay offers doesn't talk to the one that sets the website pricing. I watched it drop in price one more time before someone else bought it. In the meantime I decided that I didn't want the under bb direct mount brakes. I don't know what the bike finally sold for but it must have been off their site or though the make an offer option because no one had bid when it disappeared. I estimate that gave up over $600 from my final offer to what it actually sold for. Of course they are welcome to sell their bikes/frames/parts for whatever they want but I would have thought someone have reached out before taking mark down after mark down to see if I was still interested. Odd way to keep the lights on IMHO.

[OtayBW]

Very enlightening thread. I think I'll pass on these guys. Build in uncertainty with no (effective) return policy, and what seems like a bit of a 'take it or leave it' policy, and you wind up with a crap shoot. Not my cup of tea.

[jamesdak]

Interesting thread. A little off topic but....

I bought a bike off one of their buyers a year or two ago. It came extremely well packed and was in excellent condition. Price was great.

Heard from others that have been happy buying from them. I'd consider them for sure if they have something I want.

I honestly don't think the OP is the right buyer for them. Expectations just don't seem realistic or practical to me. Discount is discount whether your saving $10 or $5000. You want custom service then pay for it with someone set up to provide such a service.


Oh, and this is what I bought and is now one of five Giordana's I own.

https://www.theproscloset.com/blogs/news/what-we-ride-justins-giordana-polaris

[zmalwo]

They just don't care. There are millions more people out there that will buy. They think they don't lack you as a customer.

[peanutgallery]

If you want concierge service, crack open the wallet and buy new stuff. If you want a "deal", buy used. Plan accordingly. Onus is on the buyer to educate themselves...hence the "deal"

This thread is why I almost have pity for anyone who makes their living selling used bike stuff. Used chamois, bikes and socks attracts an interesting cast of characters

[scottcw2]

Because educated buyers who want to ride $3500 bikes that fit are totes unrealistic.

$3500 is a lot of money, discount or not.

[zmalwo]

If you want concierge service, crack open the wallet and buy new stuff. If you want a "deal", buy used. Plan accordingly. Onus is on the buyer to educate themselves...hence the "deal"

This thread is why I almost have pity for anyone who makes their living selling used bike stuff. Used chamois, bikes and socks attracts an interesting cast of characters

If you call the pro's closet a deal.... their stuff is usually 50% - 100% more expensive than market price for all of their used stuff.

[glepore]

Geez, the only way to tell with some custom frames is to know the weight, strength and riding preferences of the rider.

I've bought stuff from TPC for years, some of it really oddball and custom. You have to pick your spots, pay your money and take your chances.

Yes, 4k for a 12k bike is still 4k, but part of the reason the bike was 12k in the first place is (in the case of a custom, as this discussion is irrelevant to off the shelf bikes - those measurements are obtainable by the buyer) is that it was bespoke, perhaps in ways that you'll not be able to ascertain.

As to Duff's point, there is a princess and pea syndrome. Would I pass on a appropriately priced bike that is 1cm off in tt length? Not likely, but I suspect I'm in a minority.

The two best bikes I've had have been total customs that I took some chances on as I knew the basic measurements were good but some stuff (like headtube height, stiffness tune etc ) isn't available in the used market. Had I passed because I needed the numbers, I would have missed a couple wonderful bikes.

[duff_duffy]

If they are in business and selling lots of stuff wouldn’t there prices be the market? If they were 50-100% over they’d be out of business unless I’m misunderstanding something.

If you call the pro's closet a deal.... their stuff is usually 50% - 100% more expensive than market price for all of their used stuff.

[zmalwo]

If they are in business and selling lots of stuff wouldn’t there prices be the market? If they were 50-100% over they’d be out of business unless I’m misunderstanding something.

It's their branding that matters. Apple can sell a display stand for $999 because they have a cult following them. TPC's used bike market share on eBay is probably somewhere below 3% of the total used bike sells.

[duff_duffy]

Still not following....I don’t think anyone is paying a premium for TPC used bikes based on their brand. Apple followers pay for the brand.

It's their branding that matters. Apple can sell a display stand for $999 because they have a cult following them. TPC's used bike market share on eBay is probably somewhere below 3% of the total used bike sells.

[bthomas515]

I’ve actually bought a few things from them. If it’s any consolation, the stuff has been packed wonderfully and they put it in the mail that day. Been a great experience overall

[Clean39T]

I’ve actually bought a few things from them. If it’s any consolation, the stuff has been packed wonderfully and they put it in the mail that day. Been a great experience overallI've had nothing but great interactions and purchase experiences with them too.....

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[Pegoready]

Because educated buyers who want to ride $3500 bikes that fit are totes unrealistic.

$3500 is a lot of money, discount or not.

Weren't you trying to sell a spot in a custom builder queue not that long ago? Somehow that listing mysteriously disappeared. Why not follow through on that to get a bike exactly how you want it?

Yes, $3500 is a lot of money, but take it to a bike shop and get a mid level carbon bike with Ultegra + fitting and they'll treat you like royalty for the day. If you're taking $3500 to Pros Closet I see that as the equivalent of buying a 10 year old Mercedes S-Class V12 that cost $120,000 when new but has depreciated to new Camry levels. It's a fun gamble if you can swing it and expect surprises.

[jr59]

Because educated buyers who want to ride $3500 bikes that fit are totes unrealistic.

$3500 is a lot of money, discount or not.

Then go buy a 3500 dollar bike! I sure your LBS will have a few of them. Not a 12,000 dollar bike at 3500. After all, 3500 is a lot of money. You make me laugh.

[peanutgallery]

They are selling you a "deal", not a bike that fits. That's on you, part of the adventure.

Because educated buyers who want to ride $3500 bikes that fit are totes unrealistic.

$3500 is a lot of money, discount or not.

[paredown]

I've also bought a few things from them and have been pleased with the service.

I kind of get why the sparse description may be OK for a rear mech (that I bought) and not so OK for a $4k frame--I know I have had my share of 'misrepresented' or mis-measured frames that I have then had to deal with, and appreciate when a seller can go the extra distance and check. My real complaint though is for all those sellers who just say "It's a 57" as if that is a natural kind and standard across all makers...

[oldpotatoe]

They just don't care. There are millions more people out there that will buy. They think they don't lack you as a customer.

Millions??

Don't agree..I know Nick, the owner and a lot of guys that work there and you paint a picture of a bunch of lazy people that don't GAS..NOT that way at all. They are trying to manage a HUGE inventory, with lots of moving parts, and still make a small profit in the end. Their fixed costs, in terms of equipment, computers, labor, building(s) is VERY big..Not trying to make excuses for them, but they need to be efficient, with a VERY BIG operation. Can they do better? Yes, but their growth has been double digits for a while..
If you don't want to do biz with them, fine and dandy....BUT 'they just don't care'?? Not at all, IMHO.

[biker72]

I've purchased a bike and some small parts from TPC. Good communication and fantastic packing of the bike. I did return one item almost 60 days after purchase. They gave me a full in store credit

I've been quite happy with them..

[batman1425]

If they are in business and selling lots of stuff wouldn’t there prices be the market? If they were 50-100% over they’d be out of business unless I’m misunderstanding something.

He might mean market in terms of what we would charge one another for similar used items and other consumer to consumer used sales. IME, their prices do tend to be a fair bit higher than what I would pay an owner directly for the same bike on a forum, FB marketplace, craigslist, etc. That said, for that premium, you get a company with some oversight and mechanics that will look it over, make sure it is safe and functional. TBH - I wouldn't spend 4k on a used bike without putting my eyeballs on it in person unless I was buying from somebody here or a place like TPC. No way I'd drop that cash on something from a random eBay seller with PayPal/eBay BS as my only safety net.

[scottcw2]

You make me laugh.

Can't say the same.

[FlashUNC]

Can you get back in the Ellis queue? That might be easier.

[scottcw2]

... I see that as the equivalent of buying a 10 year old Mercedes S-Class V12 that cost $120,000 when new but has depreciated to new Camry levels. It's a fun gamble if you can swing it and expect surprises.

There's this new thing the kids are using called Carfax so there are no surprises.

[scottcw2]

Can you get back in the Ellis queue? That might be easier.

I don't need custom. Generally a stock 58-59 will fit fine provided there are not any odd angles and the BB drop is 7.5-8.

[FlashUNC]

I don't need custom. Generally a stock 58-59 will fit fine provided there are not any odd angles and the BB drop is 7.5-8.

Not a ton of stock bikes out there with that much BB drop.

Spesh Tarmac is at, what, 7.2 or something at that size?

[Big Dan]

What's your ideal stock frame?

Btw, I can ride stock frames and still have custom ones.
Good to pick what BB or headset you want for example.

[Jaybee]

I think Scott is looking for a gravel bike based on his classifieds post... the Diverge has a big BB drop, more than 80mm, the Checkpoint is 74.

[scottcw2]

What's your ideal stock frame?


58-59, 72-73 angles, BB drop 7.5-8, trail mid 5s to low 6s. But it seems it is unrealistic to ask for these measurements.

[Big Dan]

Who makes that frame?
Can you get that off the rack?
If not,then you need a custom frame.

[jr59]

58-59, 72-73 angles, BB drop 7.5-8, trail mid 5s to low 6s. But it seems it is unrealistic to ask for these measurements.

No it’s not. Just pay the full retail price for new and all will be fine. Oh that’s right... I forgot.... you wanted a 66% discount. You are correct that’s unrealistic

[FlashUNC]

I think Scott is looking for a gravel bike based on his classifieds post... the Diverge has a big BB drop, more than 80mm, the Checkpoint is 74.

Ah, that makes sense then.

[scottcw2]

No it’s not. Just pay the full retail price for new and all will be fine. Oh that’s right... I forgot.... you wanted a 66% discount. You are correct that’s unrealistic

Are all the kids off your lawn yet?

[jtakeda]

There's this new thing the kids are using called Carfax so there are no surprises.

Do you know how carfax works?
There are A LOT of surprises with carfax

It’s just the risk of buying used. It’s ok if the risk/reward isn’t worth it for you, I feel exactly the same way.

I’m not going to spend 3k on a used frame when I can spend $700 more and get exactly what I want. I’d rather spend 1200 and hope I get it right.

That being said it’s not really Pros closets fault. They’re a used seller—isn’t that exactly why people prefer to buy here? You get all the info?

[FlashUNC]

58-59, 72-73 angles, BB drop 7.5-8, trail mid 5s to low 6s. But it seems it is unrealistic to ask for these measurements.

Nobody at Pro's Closet or any consignment place is going to record trail for every bike that comes through the door, especially when the inventory is in the hundreds of bikes.

Yes, that's totally unrealistic.

[rallizes]

do people here ever list trail when selling a bike?

maybe i have missed it or don't look for it

[scottcw2]

Nobody at Pro's Closet or any consignment place is going to record trail for every bike that comes through the door, especially when the inventory is in the hundreds of bikes.

Yes, that's totally unrealistic.

I was asked what my ideal bike is. I don't expect trail numbers when buying used. The rest are easily measured.

[nmrt]

I just bought a used porsche 911 GT2 RS for a bargain! I paid $120,000 for it. Almost a 50% discount. I dared not ask the salesman for the specs of the car because I was getting a discount! :banana:



No it’s not. Just pay the full retail price for new and all will be fine. Oh that’s right... I forgot.... you wanted a 66% discount. You are correct that’s unrealistic

[scottcw2]

I just bought a used porsche 911 GT2 RS for a bargain! I paid $120,000 for it. Almost a 50% discount. I dared not ask the salesman for the specs of the car because I was getting a discount! :banana:

The phrase that's sweeping the nation, "Don't show me the Carfax."

[raygunner]

I wanted to buy a new camera. I love buying used and found the camera at a good price at Adorama. A good price, not a steal.

Adorama assigned a condition grade to every item and it corresponds to the price.

But they don't list shutter count on any camera on their used site. It's not a difficult thing to find, especially on the camera I wanted.

So I called, hoping to find more info. When I was told that the shutter count wasn't available I asked how could they accurately grade the condition of the camera without taking the shutter count into consideration? Do they check before purchasing? How accurate was their grading?

Long story short, I took my money elsewhere!

I've always found TPC to have good prices, not steals. But if they can't, or don't want to provide all the info you need just take your money elsewhere.

[tomato coupe]

I just bought a used porsche 911 GT2 RS for a bargain! I paid $120,000 for it. Almost a 50% discount. I dared not ask the salesman for the specs of the car because I was getting a discount! :banana:
People have different comfort levels with monetary risk -- some are willing to take a gamble on a $100k+ car, while others won't take a risk on a $1000 bike frame.

[Clean39T]

https://www.outsideonline.com/2393460/pros-closet-used-bike-retailer

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[glepore]

Yes, $3500 is a lot of money, but take it to a bike shop and get a mid level carbon bike with Ultegra + fitting and they'll treat you like royalty for the day. If you're taking $3500 to Pros Closet I see that as the equivalent of buying a 10 year old Mercedes S-Class V12 that cost $120,000 when new but has depreciated to new Camry levels. It's a fun gamble if you can swing it and expect surprises.

This is spot on, given that I've had a couple used customs (including a ti bike from TPC) and two v12 Benz(s600 coupe and sl600-both '96) that were at USED
Camry prices when purchased. Neither has cost more than an avg of 2k yr to maintain...

[Lanternrouge]

I just bought a used porsche 911 GT2 RS for a bargain! I paid $120,000 for it. Almost a 50% discount. I dared not ask the salesman for the specs of the car because I was getting a discount! :banana:

For what it's worth, getting one of those cars at half off the original sticker is a much better deal than a bike since those cars sell for a lot more than sticker price. I think sticker is close to $300k and I've heard they've been selling new for about $500k.

I suppose these numbers are part of why I'm into "exotic" or "high-end" bikes rather than cars.

[pdmtong]

The only numbers I trust are those from the mfg if a stock bike or the build sheet if custom.

I do not trust a person taking measurements on my behalf, and then me spending my money and hoping they got it right.

Believe or not, people (even here) can goof linear measures and for sure I do not buy into someone measuring a HTA or STA.

Since knowing those EXACT measures matter to me, if a seller/vendor cannot provide, I move on even if it's a frame I'd really like, UNLESS it is so cheap I am ok taking a flyer.

So even if TPC "measured" it and posted it, I would not be a buyer. I can't take the purchase risk nor am I willing to take the subsequent resale risk

And I am saying all this knowing I can ride a STOCK 56 frame from just about anyone all day long.

And I am fine with TPC lack of info. if that's a frustration to the OP, then the issue is with the OP and not the TPC as they are not going to change. The OP on the other hand has a choice...accept the lack of info or find another frame.

[peanutgallery]

bingo in bold

The only numbers I trust are those from the mfg if a stock bike or the build sheet if custom.

I do not trust a person taking measurements on my behalf, and then me spending my money and hoping they got it right.

Believe or not, people (even here) can goof linear measures and for sure I do not buy into someone measuring a HTA or STA.

Since knowing those EXACT measures matter to me, if a seller/vendor cannot provide, I move on even if it's a frame I'd really like, UNLESS it is so cheap I am ok taking a flyer.

So even if TPC "measured" it and posted it, I would not be a buyer. I can't take the purchase risk nor am I willing to take the subsequent resale risk

And I am saying all this knowing I can ride a STOCK 56 frame from just about anyone all day long.

And I am fine with TPC lack of info. if that's a frustration to the OP, then the issue is with the OP and not the TPC as they are not going to change. The OP on the other hand has a choice...accept the lack of info or find another frame.

[pdmtong]

Another perspective: the ONLY source of truth is the mfg or builder.

Not TPC, not the buyer, not a third party.

Lets say TPC measures a length as x and an angle as y.

Now the buyer receives the frame and measures it and x and y are different.

The only conclusion is two parties measured differently. and that the buyer who bought based on x and y believes they did not receive x and y.

to which TPC will say but we measure x and y. and now we have a stand off.

so if I am TPC, maybe I take the time to provide numbers that generally would be unassailable. It is not in thier interest to get fancey and privide "more" in the nbame of "better service" in fact the opposite is true. more could ge them deeper in a hole.

it's no skin off them if the bike doesnt sell - its a consignment. every bling frame is simply an opportunity that if fulfilled means revenue and if not fulfilled means some temporary taking up of warehouse space.

they could encourage sellers to get or provide more measurements. maybe list as "seller provided measurements" and measures x, y and z verified by TPC.

in the end, caveat emptor.

I have often thought if the frame is custom then a high price means waiting for the perfect fit and a low price means get it gone to the person willing to take a flyer.

[mhespenheide]

Honestly, a second-hand custom frame always makes me puzzled. If it's not custom for you, it's just a potentially oddball stock frame.

If you're looking for a deal on a custom frame and want a lower price, look for someone like Davis (for Ti), Clockwork, or Curtlo. At least then you know you're getting what you actually want.

[batman1425]

Honestly, a second-hand custom frame always makes me puzzled. If it's not custom for you, it's just a potentially oddball stock frame.

If you're looking for a deal on a custom frame and want a lower price, look for someone like Davis (for Ti), Clockwork, or Curtlo. At least then you know you're getting what you actually want.

I'm in this boat too. It's not custom for you unless by some rare chance it has your custom measurements or build characteristics. No different than a stock frame to me if bought second hand. It might be the only way a person could afford said frame if the maker only does custom sizing for example. That said, IMO, it doesn't inherently have any more value to the next buyer just because it was someone else's ideal geometry.

[Clean39T]

Honestly, a second-hand custom frame always makes me puzzled. If it's not custom for you, it's just a potentially oddball stock frame.



If you're looking for a deal on a custom frame and want a lower price, look for someone like Davis (for Ti), Clockwork, or Curtlo. At least then you know you're getting what you actually want.There are multiple things to be enjoyed about a custom bike though, and only one of them is the geometry......

Paint, materials, and the rarity of them - maybe connection to the builder and community of owners - the history of the brand, etc. All of those can be a part of the experience you get even if the geo is a bit off.

Of course, it's better when you get the whole package - fit, directly supporting the craft - and worth the extra expense of paying up to get what you want....if you can, and place the value on that ..

Enjoying a tasting menu of styles and builders through the used market is fun though - and instructive. And who knows, you may get lucky and find a custom that truly was built for your morphological doppelganger (as I did with my Firefly and my inbound Ellis).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[weisan]

There are multiple things to be enjoyed about a custom bike though, and only one of them is the geometry......

Paint, materials, and the rarity of them - maybe connection to the builder and community of owners - the history of the brand, etc. All of those can be a part of the experience you get even if the geo is a bit off.

.

[Clean39T]

.

Exactly :)

[mhespenheide]

There are multiple things to be enjoyed about a custom bike though, and only one of them is the geometry......

Paint, materials, and the rarity of them - maybe connection to the builder and community of owners - the history of the brand, etc. All of those can be a part of the experience you get even if the geo is a bit off.



To clarify, I think you can pick up amazing bikes for great deals. I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything that I thought would fit me -- and any number of yours were very tempting. I just don't think of them as custom.

I'm probably being overly picky with my semantics.

[Big Dan]

I think the op should say what stock bike fits him.
What brand and model. Maybe that would help.

:help:

[Pegoready]

The only numbers I trust are those from the mfg if a stock bike or the build sheet if custom.



Reminds me of the Tommy Boy quote "Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will."

You'd be surprised how many build sheets from custom builders don't match the final product. Lack of accuracy (does the frame really have a 73.2° head tube angle?) or simply making a running change in production and not updating the build sheet. Not by an egregious amount, but I'd trust steady measurements after the frame is built about as much as a build sheet. A build sheet sure makes people feel warm and fuzzy though.

[scottcw2]

I think the op should say what stock bike fits him.
What brand and model. Maybe that would help.

:help:

The OP has moved on. As others have stated, I am not TPC's target customer.

[weiwentg]

https://www.outsideonline.com/2393460/pros-closet-used-bike-retailer


I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do note that the link says this:

More than half of TPC’s inventory has pre-owned certification. To earn it, a bike has to pass a 141-point inspection at the hands of a mechanic, including everything from the condition of the paint job to how much play is in the frame pivots. If there’s an issue with a bike—say, the shifter cables are rusty—it gets fixed. The bikes on the site that don’t make it into the CPO category might be discounted a few hundred dollars more because of their condition and age.

So, they claimed in April 2019 that they're inspecting at least some bikes in a fair bit of detail. Given that, is it not reasonable to provide a bit more information than just TT, ST, and standover on a custom bike? I have to think you'd want at least the seat tube and head tube angles. They clearly do provide all those measurements, plus stack and reach, for stock bikes. I know you can just look those measurements up. But people do need more than just 3 lengths to know that a bike fits well, right?

[tomato coupe]

But people do need more than just 3 lengths to know that a bike fits well, right?

I've never needed more than two measurements -- stack and reach.

[pdmtong]

Reminds me of the Tommy Boy quote "Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will."

You'd be surprised how many build sheets from custom builders don't match the final product. Lack of accuracy (does the frame really have a 73.2° head tube angle?) or simply making a running change in production and not updating the build sheet. Not by an egregious amount, but I'd trust steady measurements after the frame is built about as much as a build sheet. A build sheet sure makes people feel warm and fuzzy though.

I can see there could be variance from the intended spec. Point taken.