California fires and PG&E "blackouts": the "New Normal"?

[XXtwindad]

My partner has been without electricity in her house for over 24 hours. (I have power in my apartment which is not in the hills). Food is completely gone to waste. "Mood lighting." No Internet/TV, obviously. The air is dense with the smoke from the Sonoma fires. My twin daughters have no school today because of the air quality.

PG&E has given ominous warnings about intermittent shut-offs. Is this the "new normal?" I occasionally watch the "Last Frontier" with my partner, which documents the few remaining Alaska homesteaders. I used to joke that when the Apocalypse happened, these people would have no problem.

"There's no app for survival," I said. It doesn't seem as funny now...

[verticaldoug]

The BBC aired a documentary on Oct 21 called 'The Day California Burned' which may be close to the 'Fire in Paradise' which is airing on Netflix although the BBC program is 20 minutes longer.

It briefly discusses the larger issues of climate change and policy changes required.

This is not just a PG&E issue. There are larger issues of forest management and community planning.

As hard as it is to believe, it will get worse.

[jpritchet74]

The whole situation is absolutely insane. It's not like heavy winds are a new thing - it's that PG&E hasn't maintained their equipment and/or maintained the areas around their equipment that seems to be the problem.

That being said, the winds that we had yesterday were absolutely crazy.

This should be my reminder to get a generator though...

[Mike V]

When all is shut off you can't YouTube and Google your way out of it.

I still live some of my life anolog and teach my kids how. I'm prepared are you?

[XXtwindad]

When all is shut off you can't YouTube and Google your way out of it.

I still live some of my life anolog and teach my kids how. I'm prepared are you?

No. And although I'm far from alone, it's a problem.

[likebikes]

california is looking more and more like a 3rd world country these days

[bicycletricycle]

I heard a California resident (who lives in the mountains around Tahoe) claim that PG&E had changed their practices in the last decades and had not been cutting back trees close to the lines as much as they used to. I do not know if this is true and if it is why. Could be lack of funding, could be regulations I guess. Since the camp fire I have seem some evidence of them more aggressively cutting back vegetation in that area. I grew up in CA and the wind and dry conditions are not new so something has changed. I guess it could just be old equipment.

[Big Dan]

california is looking more and more like a 3rd world country these days

The comedy show started already.

[ravdg316]

The comedy show started already.

Seriously?

[572cv]

We have family in NoCal and are most concerned. There are so many threads leading to the situation faced today, from climate change to land management to corporate mismanagement, to perceptions about what is worth investing in, and more, much more. Former Gov. Brown called it the "new abnormal".

This writer has penned a series of articles worth reading about the CA power crisis and how it might go in a more positive direction. Here's one.
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/10/28/20926446/california-grid-distributed-energy

Our local utility (Green Mountain Power) has put a huge emphasis on distributed energy in the last few years. It calls itself no longer just an energy delivery company, but also an energy management company. We used their programs to put in two Tesla Powerwall batteries here, which feed our house in any power outage. They'll hold things for a few days with decent restraint on our part. More importantly, when they are not being used by us, they are available to GMP, which uses them to shave peak power demand - generally for AC in the summer. This saves everyone the big bucks and helps keep rates down. In the last few years, this alone has been worth millions. I am encouraged by the initiative being taken to create resilience, and use the tech cleverly.

[Big Dan]

Seriously?

Have you been to a third world country?
Do you think California is close to one?

[bicycletricycle]

california is looking more and more like a 3rd world country these days

maybe not a third world country, but they are certainly sliding backwards in some sectors. Strange phenomena for such a wealthy place with so much political will to do good for it's people.

[Jaybee]

The wind and dry conditions aren't new but the temperatures are 2-3 degrees higher than the 30-year average, which makes a big difference for fire containment. Add that to years of suppression building big fuel loads and this is the end product - your "new normal".

[jtakeda]

maybe not a third world country, but they are certainly sliding backwards in some sectors. Strange phenomena for such a wealthy place with so much political will to do good for it's people.

Not that strange if you consider all the wealth is being accumulated by a small percentage of people in the big cities which are largely unaffected by the fires

Also calling CA a 3rd world country is insane. We don’t struggle for clean water and basic human necessities.

[ravdg316]

Have you been to a third world country?
Do you think California is close to one?

I live in Los Angeles and go to India to visit family. Given my experience with both, no. California is not close to a “Third World Country,” which in itself is an antiquated term from the Cold War era.

[joosttx]

maybe not a third world country, but they are certainly sliding backwards in some sectors. Strange phenomena for such a wealthy place with so much political will to do good for it's people.

This is ridiculous for the worlds 5th largest economy. When have been without power since 8:26pm on Saturday. We are fine. San Francisco has power and is 10 miles away across to GGB. We are headed to the academy of science today as school has been cancelled.

We have all our perishables in a cooler with ice. My wife bought the kids lego sets and football cards so they are not missing a beat. It is finally getting smokey where we live.

PG&E sucks. I still don’t know what the CEO looks like which means they are doing $hitty PR along with their $hitty management and execution. We are blessed bc we don’t get paid hourly or work has suffered and that we do not need electricity to stay alive.

[prototoast]

Certainly I think it would be possible for the state and PG&E to do a better job handling this, but the reactions to this feel overblown.

When I was in New England, it was fairly common for snow storms to come through, knocking down lines and leaving people without electricity for days, and snow-related business/school closings are completely routine.

Further south down the Coast, they get regular hurricanes that knock out power and damage communities. Last year's Camp Fire in California killed 85 people. Hurricane Sandy killed over 200, and Katrina killed nearly 2,000.

California's natural problems are different, but not insignificant. Near the Kincade fire, there were wind gusts over 100 mph. That's a legit weather event, and is part of living on Earth, but there's a huge gap between going without power for 24 hours and the destruction of civilization.

[bicycletricycle]

That is a good point. The homelessness crisis is harder to ignore for the rich city dwellers though. Many people would classify power as a human necessity and you are struggling for that , although it is a hyperbolic assessment it is not totally unwarranted.

Not that strange if you consider all the wealth is being accumulated by a small percentage of people in the big cities which are largely unaffected by the fires

Also calling CA a 3rd world country is insane. We don’t struggle for clean water and basic human necessities.

[Jaybee]

California is not struggling for power. They have made a risk management decision that keeping lines hot in this weather environment presents an unacceptable chance of causing a fire.

[Big Dan]

Certainly I think it would be possible for the state and PG&E to do a better job handling this, but the reactions to this feel overblown.

When I was in New England, it was fairly common for snow storms to come through, knocking down lines and leaving people without electricity for days, and snow-related business/school closings are completely routine.

Further south down the Coast, they get regular hurricanes that knock out power and damage communities. Last year's Camp Fire in California killed 85 people. Hurricane Sandy killed over 200, and Katrina killed nearly 2,000.

California's natural problems are different, but not insignificant. Near the Kincade fire, there were wind gusts over 100 mph. That's a legit weather event, and is part of living on Earth, but there's a huge gap between going without power for 24 hours and the destruction of civilization.


Possible that it will become the norm.
During hurricane season in Florida we lose power for extended periods. Home owners that can afford to get back up generators.

[benb]

Yah same here in New England.. you make a calculated decision about whether to buy a generator.

It's not even snow season and yet we've had power outtages the last 2 weeks. 2 weeks ago 45% of my town lost power. Last week the next town over where I work lost power. Got a great ride in that day cause the office closed due to lack of power.

California has really enviable weather IMO but every place has something to watch out for. California just has fires instead of tornadoes or blizzards or Nor'Easters or floods.

[wallymann]

California has really enviable weather IMO but every place has something to watch out for. California just has fires instead of tornadoes or blizzards or Nor'Easters or floods.

...and lets not forget about earthquakes.

[verticaldoug]

I live in Los Angeles and go to India to visit family. Given my experience with both, no. California is not close to a “Third World Country,” which in itself is an antiquated term from the Cold War era.

I often wonder if India is our future instead of the other way around.

[GOTHBROOKS]

ive always been under the impression that we cant bury the powerlines underground or have high speed rail aboveground because of all that seismic activity.

[jtakeda]

ive always been under the impression that we cant bury the powerlines underground or have high speed rail aboveground because of all that seismic activity.

I think a look at japan successfully implementing both would debunk that theory

[Jaybee]

ive always been under the impression that we cant bury the powerlines underground or have high speed rail aboveground because of all that seismic activity.

Someone should let the Japanese know. There are geotechnical impediments there, but they are engineering problems, not impossible obstacles. I think the big obstacles are actually political.

EDIT: jtakeda is crazy smart!

[eddief]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article236714238.html

[denapista]

Japan has a way better infrastructure than CA, and they've had way larger significant earthquakes than CA. I like when people quote that we have earthquakes as a reason to not live here.. The last significant earthquakes that were of concern were the Northridge quake or the Bay Area quake. That was 1989 and 1994...

Political blundering and the auto industry is the reasoning we won't see a high speed rail.

[verticaldoug]

Political blundering and the auto industry is the reasoning we won't see a high speed rail.

I think almost all the recent high speed rail projects are vanity project boondoggles. HS2 here in the UK may be worse than the California and Texas projects.

[rwsaunders]

I think a look at japan successfully implementing both would debunk that theory

For as well as the Japanese address the technical challenges of maintaining a power and transportation infrastructure in a seismically active environment, even their engineers didn't account for the magnitude of the earthquake and the height of the resultant tsunami that caused the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant disaster. The tsunami waves cleared the height of the 33' high seawall by 10-12'.

Given what happened with PG&E and the Camp Fire in 2018, I can understand why they're quick to turn off power until conditions improve. Mother Nature can be quite unforgiving, especially when the perfect storm of severe weather, aging infrastructure and previously unchallenged design assumptions meet at the crossroads.

[verticaldoug]

For as well as the Japanese address the technical challenges of maintaining a power and transportation infrastructure in a seismically active environment, even their engineers didn't account for the magnitude of the earthquake and the height of the resultant tsunami that caused the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant disaster. The tsunami waves cleared the height of the 33' high seawall by 10-12'.

Given what happened with PG&E and the Camp Fire in 2018, I can understand why they're quick to turn off power until conditions improve. Mother Nature can be quite unforgiving, especially when the perfect storm of severe weather, aging infrastructure and previously unchallenged design assumptions meet at the crossroads.

They don't bury their power lines. Walk in any Japanese city, and you have power lines everywhere. GO in the countryside, and you have power lines everywhere.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/11/06/editorials/burying-overhead-power-lines/#.Xbcy2dXgrzQ

[rwsaunders]

They don't bury their power lines. Walk in any Japanese city, and you have power lines everywhere. GO in the countryside, and you have power lines everywhere.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/11/06/editorials/burying-overhead-power-lines/#.Xbcy2dXgrzQ

Doug...my only comments are that the Japanese do very well with engineering power and transportation infrastructure systems in a seismic area. Just to be sure, the comments about buried utilities in Japan are not mine.

My own experience with buried utilities is with commercial real estate development where the option to go aboveground with electric and communication lines is most often not an option. With major power transmission lines, the cost to go underground is prohibitive as nobody wants to pony up for the difference to go overhead...+/-(costX6) is a rough estimate and you still need to deal with lightning strikes and flooding.

[jtakeda]

They don't bury their power lines. Walk in any Japanese city, and you have power lines everywhere. GO in the countryside, and you have power lines everywhere.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/11/06/editorials/burying-overhead-power-lines/#.Xbcy2dXgrzQ

Im surprised the number is this low. I remember the highways had buried lines and they were working to bury the lines for the last 15 years or so.

7% is a low ratio

[Pegoready]

Major power shutoffs 3x in the past 3 weeks in Ventura County.

I work from home and my livelihood depends on reliable power and internet. I've been bouncing around to Starbucks, my car, and libraries to get work done but it totally sucks and affects my work.

The fridge is pretty much empty. We don't buy as much food anymore.

We leave our electric gate open at all hours. I can't imagine trying to manually open it in the dark when frantic and panicked so we leave it open.

At night silence has been replaced by the drone of generators.

I worry about older people in the neighborhood who use electricity at night for various machines like CPAP.

This is totally nuts. An investor owned company is in charge of our power. Their equipment isn't up to task and we, the captive audience customer, has to foot the inconvenience.

Some people in our neighborhood called and asked SCE what they should do if their medical equipment doesn't work due to the power shutoffs and they were told to stay at a relative's or go to the nearest shelter 30 miles away :eek: That's the company reply.

[CMiller]

Yes this might be the new normal. The winds yesterday were legitimately scary to add to a scary scenario. I'm in Berkeley hills and we are quick to lose power being near a lot of dry land, luckily I have family in Hayward I have been staying with.

I somewhat understand the shutdowns at face value but there is no excuse for how carelessly it's been managed by PG&E.

[HenryA]

PG&E is regulated by the state of California. So when blaming and shaming, save a big load for your elected politicians and the bureaucrats.

Can’t build safe electric equipment? Can’t keep the land around it cleared and burn free? Really?

Really?

[verticaldoug]

Doug...my only comments are that the Japanese do very well with engineering power and transportation infrastructure systems in a seismic area. Just to be sure, the comments about buried utilities in Japan are not mine.

My own experience with buried utilities is with commercial real estate development where the option to go aboveground with electric and communication lines is most often not an option. With major power transmission lines, the cost to go underground is prohibitive as nobody wants to pony up for the difference to go overhead...+/-(costX6) is a rough estimate and you still need to deal with lightning strikes and flooding.

I know. I was too lazy to go back to the original Japanese comment. There is the Japan of myth and the Japan of reality. If California was a prefecture in Japan, the central government solution would be to cut down all the trees, spray concrete the hillsides and paint the concrete green. Problem solved in a practical and efficient manner. I am not joking either....

[benb]

I worry about older people in the neighborhood who use electricity at night for various machines like CPAP.

This is totally nuts. An investor owned company is in charge of our power. Their equipment isn't up to task and we, the captive audience customer, has to foot the inconvenience.

Some people in our neighborhood called and asked SCE what they should do if their medical equipment doesn't work due to the power shutoffs and they were told to stay at a relative's or go to the nearest shelter 30 miles away :eek: That's the company reply.

I don't get this at all.. is there any area of the country where the power is/was so reliable that you wouldn't automatically look at generators the day you became dependent on electricity to maintain life-saving medical devices in the house?

I just can't fathom it.. did California historically have power that reliable? It has always been a given in my life everywhere I've lived that a storm, etc.. could/would knock out the power at any moment. Ice, Wind, Rain, Flooding, Snow all knock out the power.

I realize there are a lot of people who won't think that kind of thing through but I think if you think it through you have to assume the power is never that reliable.

[Jaybee]

PG&E is regulated by the state of California. So when blaming and shaming, save a big load for your elected politicians and the bureauocrats.

Can’t build safe electric equipment? Can’t keep the land around it cleared and burn free? Really?

Really?

PG&E is also beholden to shareholders and as such has a profit-maximizing interest in addition to an interest in providing power for everyone in its service area. If power is this important to our society (and it is) maybe it's time for utilities of this size to become publicly managed commons instead of privatized, for-profit entities.

[verticaldoug]

PG&E is also beholden to shareholders and as such has a profit-maximizing interest in addition to an interest in providing power for everyone in its service area. If power is this important to our society (and it is) maybe it's time for utilities of this size to become publicly managed commons instead of privatized, for-profit entities.

That is a failure of CPUC.

[Mike Lopez]

Last week I arrived home, San Diego area, from a ride down the coast to find 100 degree heat, high winds, and the power being shut off in certain areas due to conditions. As you may recall, we've had some bad fires too.

I immediately got online and looked at the outage maps and found that some areas in the town of Poway were turned off. This is a problem for lots of folks but in my case I've got about $50k of temperature sensitive materials in my freezer at any given moment. I called SDG&E asking for specifics about which circuits and after proving that I was the business owner by citing specifics off my bill he checked his computer and said my industrial park was still energized. I was relieved, thanked him for his time, and went to bed.

Since I'd been away for a week and wanted to check on things myself I went in over the weekend and according to the temp recorder on my freezer the SDG&E rep was incorrect. The temp inside the unit had risen to 70 deg F for a time which is not terrible but it certainly doesn't help anything. I think it's the last time I trust the customer service lines and will be installing a temp sensor that emails me when things are out of range.

Watching the news I saw that numerous store and restaurant owners lost lots of sales and inventory during the shut down. I have mucho sympathy for them. It will take a lot of work for them to be made whole again. Some may be insured and others not. I'm not currently but am certainly looking into it now. Problem for me is that even if I'm "covered" it would be very problematic. Prepreg materials are a long lead time item. I can't just call the local grocery wholesaler and arrange a delivery tomorrow like some of them can. Providing they have the cash on hand to cover it of course. Looks like I'll have to explore downtime coverage as well. I know it exists but don't know its cost. Looks like parts from me aren't gonna be getting any cheaper in the future. ;)

On one hand I feel we can't blame the utility companies for the outages to some extent. They're sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they leave the power on and there are fires they get sued. If they turn it off they get bitched at and then sued for other losses. They're a business and trying to reduce exposure. Probably cheaper for them to power down and lose revenue than to risk another class action lawsuit.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on their side. Hopefully as we settle into the new normal all the utilities will get their act together and clean up their yards so to speak. In the meantime I'll get more insurance and continue to watch our new governor threaten them on the news.

Thanks SDG&E! aka San Diego Gouge and Extortion

[Jaybee]

That is a failure of CPUC.

I'd take it a step further and say it's a failure of the California Legislature to give CPUC real authority over the state's utility companies. I'm watching this from the outside with some interest as I think Front Range CO could absolutely face similar challenges in the very near future, but it seems to me that PG+E is calling a lot of it's own shots over the years and maybe not doing as much as it should have to keep their system safe. A regulatory body with real authority would never have let it get this far.

[bicycletricycle]

That sucks. States have a variety of different utility regulation packages, I wonder which ones work best? Granting a monopoly to a private company is never a good idea IMHO

Major power shutoffs 3x in the past 3 weeks in Ventura County.

I work from home and my livelihood depends on reliable power and internet. I've been bouncing around to Starbucks, my car, and libraries to get work done but it totally sucks and affects my work.

The fridge is pretty much empty. We don't buy as much food anymore.

We leave our electric gate open at all hours. I can't imagine trying to manually open it in the dark when frantic and panicked so we leave it open.

At night silence has been replaced by the drone of generators.

I worry about older people in the neighborhood who use electricity at night for various machines like CPAP.

This is totally nuts. An investor owned company is in charge of our power. Their equipment isn't up to task and we, the captive audience customer, has to foot the inconvenience.

Some people in our neighborhood called and asked SCE what they should do if their medical equipment doesn't work due to the power shutoffs and they were told to stay at a relative's or go to the nearest shelter 30 miles away :eek: That's the company reply.

[metalheart]

The sound of my whole house generator is humming in the background, it has been on since Thursday when PG&E implemented their public safety power outages. This is the third time this month. During the first two outages high winds were forecast for certain parts of northern California, but in my area winds were light 2-5 MPH for the duration of the power outages. Many of my neighbors were incensed at the outage because PG&E apparently does not have the capability to selectively cut power to areas not exposed to threatening winds.

There is a history of PG&E not attending to the safety of its equipment, including the 2010 gas line explosion that resulted in several deaths as well as power line issues. Yep, there is a CUPUC issue there too. it does not take much research to uncover the issues with PG&E equipment and CPUC oversight.

There was a significant wind event yesterday, but since early last evening the winds have been light, less than 5MPH. Supposedly, PGE will retstore power when they have inspected the power lines for safety. People are starting to get upset at being without power when there is no significant wind. It also costs to run a propane power generator that consumes 1.5 to 2 gallons per hour at the current cost of propane $2.90/gal).

In the 30 years I have lived here there have been multiple outages, one lasting about 2 weeks. That prompted a decision for us to install a whole house generator that has proven to be a worthwhile investment, better than a portable generator with multiple extension cords running to selected appliances, which is the common solution these days. Lots of folks cannot afford even the portable generators. I have a fellow here today doing some work for me and he lives on the monetary edge for a variety of reasons and he just cannot afford a generator, so he packs a cooler with ice -- it is scarce too because of demand -- and puts the contents of his fridge in that. Being out of power for multiple days is hard on some folks more than others.

I live in a wildland-urban interface area, practically all private land where some folks take fire-prevention precautions on their property and others do not. The feds or the state have no lands nearby that threaten us. That is the case in many areas where there have been significant fires. We have had fires where I live and my immediate neighbors are aware of how fast things happen when a fire starts and that you can be miles away from a fire and the embers will still get to you if the wind direction and speed are not in your favor. So, cutting power when there is a threat is not an issu: we get that need. However, a power company that has neglected maintenance and takes a sledge hammer approach to power supply and outages does make folks upset and ask for more accountability.

[Clean39T]

I recommend this book: "The Grid: The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future" (https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-grid-9781608196104/). It isn't perfect, but most in the industry think it is a fair and informative take.

There are also some good blog posts on the blackouts and the public policy choices in play from the HAAS School of Business (Energy) at UC Berkeley: https://energyathaas.wordpress.com.

.

[FlashUNC]

Well past time for PG&E to become a public co-op and for some senior executives to spend some time behind bars.

[jtakeda]

Well past time for PG&E to become a public co-op and for some senior executives to spend some time behind bars.

For real. Not only for the mismanagement of the utility but also think about all the workers who have their retirement account in 401k/ pge stock

[daker13]

PG&E is also beholden to shareholders and as such has a profit-maximizing interest in addition to an interest in providing power for everyone in its service area. If power is this important to our society (and it is) maybe it's time for utilities of this size to become publicly managed commons instead of privatized, for-profit entities.

What I've learned is that utility companies are governed by a byzantine set of rules that vary from state to state, and they're usually policed by a public commission that is manned by, you guessed it, political appointees who are former employees of that very company. Certain costs they have to cover themselves and certain ones they can pass on to consumers (and still maintain profits), and utility companies typically try to manage their activities such that they're passing infrastructure costs on to the public at the same time that they send profits to their shareholders.

A typical company in a nominally free market economy pays for its upgrades with its profits (which supposedly allows it to deliver better services), but a for-profit utility company is able to raise rates, deliver terrible service, AND send profits to its shareholders.

Here in RI I pay for utilities through National Grid, a British for-profit company. Winter storms knock out our power (Providence suburbs) a few times a year, but National Grid doesn't want to bury its lines because it's too expensive and it's going to cut into their profits. My attitude is that a power outage is mostly just inconvenient unless it happens in winter. (I need a wood stove.) I can't imagine what I'd do if I lived near the kinds of wildfires they're experiencing in California. I agree 1000% with Jaybee above, take the profit out of the utilities and life in the US will be better.

[joosttx]

One of the great stories that came from PG&E’s last bankruptcy was after two days of 8 hour meetings with their creditors the CFO of PG&E got up and exclaimed that he did not sign up for this kind of work. It made such an impact in the banking community that I heard it from several different bankers over the years.

[Mike V]

An interesting read.

https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/resources/BrownsDirtyHands.pdf

[el cheapo]

Since the beginning of time there have been massive fires. Mother-Nature always wins. The biggest problem in California is over population. Nobody addresses that issue because there is $$$$$ to be made. You roll the dice living in areas you know have burned in the past.

[Spdntrxi]

An interesting read.

https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/resources/BrownsDirtyHands.pdf

I don't expect Newson to solve anything.. he's clueless

[Dekonick]

Japan has a way better infrastructure than CA, and they've had way larger significant earthquakes than CA. I like when people quote that we have earthquakes as a reason to not live here.. The last significant earthquakes that were of concern were the Northridge quake or the Bay Area quake. That was 1989 and 1994...

Political blundering and the auto industry is the reasoning we won't see a high speed rail.

Japanese quakes tend to be up/down, CA quakes are more lateral - or so I remember from one of the million courses I have had to take over the years. It does make a difference. Japan at subduction zone and California at right-lateral strike-slip fault zone. This, of course, is a very simplified view of a complex issue.

[GOTHBROOKS]

charred hillsides and legal pot, theres so much more that californias got.

[Dekonick]

Let's not forget how friendly the state is to energy companies... Who would want to build a modern energy production and distribution facility and infrastructure in CA today? No one who wants to make any money for certain... This is true across the country. Regulation has made it such that a company can't charge a dime until the first electrons are traversing lines... A company like PG&E can't build a new power plant and plan for it by saving up... that is illegal. They must build it first. A nuclear plant, a modern generation 3 or 3+ plant takes a decade to build and a billion dollars. How can any company afford a billion dollar outlay with no income for a decade? For the record, generation 3 and 3+ are nothing like the reactors that we have seen have failures. All designs for third generation reactors have features such as passive safeties, etc... and the 4th generation are close to reality. The brownouts are the result of policy more than anything else. Get solar, storage, and a small back-up generator to charge / supply power for those times solar can't. Read up on Nuke - it isn't the enemy...

[robertbb]

I'm in Melbourne, Australia and our State (Victoria) shares very similar "perfect storm" bushfire conditions with California. The two most prone areas in the world apparently.

In fact our respective State governments share plans and expertise regularly. An example here:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victoria-and-california-to-share-bushfire-and-drought-plans-20150707-gi6nr2.html

Heart goes out to those affected. We know how the air smells when the tinderbox goes up and those ridiculous furnace-like winds pick up. :eek:

[Davist]

Some views say it's more of a Sacramento issue than a PG&E issue, such with the state mandated priority on renewable integration (grid gets stressed and $$ that could go toward infrastructure go to balancing power) from WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/californias-dark-ages-11570748835

When I lived in CA (bay area '94-'04), we had 1 15 second blackout in 10 years, now back East, due to snow / wind / hurricanes etc we seem to have them much more frequently, sometimes days at a time.

[verticaldoug]

Japan has a way better infrastructure than CA, and they've had way larger significant earthquakes than CA. I like when people quote that we have earthquakes as a reason to not live here..

The reason Japan has such great infrastructure is to fight off recession, instead of giving large tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy like the US did, the central government passed supplementary spending budgets to build infrastructure - sometimes referred to as bridges to nowhere.

The end result is the same- large federal deficit, the different is in Japan society benefits as a whole with better infrastructure, while in America the money accrues to the 1%.

[bshell]

Regarding the earlier post about why most of us don't have generators as a back up -I've lived in NorCal for 51 years and have never been w/o power for more than a few hours except for the 1989 earthquake.

Someone will collide with a power pole or a tree falls and takes out service but it is restored pretty quickly. This precautionary shut down/restart business is completely new and I will be learning about alternatives soon.

My power was off for @48 hours a few times now and it's annoying but my food is fine. I didn't even buy ice. People can be paranoid of germs. I worry about those that need medical equipment though.

[Black Dog]

The reason Japan has such great infrastructure is to fight off recession, instead of giving large tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy like the US did, the central government passed supplementary spending budgets to build infrastructure - sometimes referred to as bridges to nowhere.

The end result is the same- large federal deficit, the different is in Japan society benefits as a whole with better infrastructure, while in America the money accrues to the 1%.

This, and the difference also being that those that benefited from the tax cuts will not be the only ones that have to pay back the debt it caused. In reality, with the wealthy actually paying less tax proportionally they are also getting a break with the responsibility of repayment. At least in Japan when they are servicing debt they can at least say that everyone gained the benefit from the spending.

[joosttx]

life without lights isnt so bad for us.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48981171201_0b3a3ff1d4_b.jpg

but we are healthy, still making money and have a lot of positive vibes.

[Pegoready]

Regarding the earlier post about why most of us don't have generators as a back up -I've lived in NorCal for 51 years and have never been w/o power for more than a few hours except for the 1989 earthquake.



Exactly. To say Californians should be prepared for a multiday power shutoff at anytime may be true, but historically it's a new thing for us.

I'm about to drop some cash on some dual stage generators and a power bank so I can work through these times and not melt my ice cream. Upping my data plan to unlimited too. Not expenses I was expecting this month but I am fortunate to be able to buy these luxuries with minimal suffering. Many aren't.

[HenryA]

https://babylonbee.com/news/texas-luring-jobs-away-from-california-with-promises-of-electricity

[jtakeda]

https://babylonbee.com/news/texas-luring-jobs-away-from-california-with-promises-of-electricity
The real big dogs have their data centers in western NC where there are few natural disasters

[XXtwindad]

https://babylonbee.com/news/texas-luring-jobs-away-from-california-with-promises-of-electricity

That is funny. Or tragic. Probably both.

[Clean39T]

That is funny. Or tragic. Probably both.Unfortunately the offer comes with living in Texas as a potentially life-altering side-effect.

And Texas of course has its own problems with electric reliability and affordability, but that's another story....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Big Dan]

Yeah, move to Houston Texas and bring a floating device.

[Louis]

Yeah, move to Houston Texas and bring a floating device.

People who live in glass houses... ;)

[Big Dan]

People who live in glass houses... ;)

You talking to me?

When did I tell anyone to move to Florida?

In Florida you need a canoe and a generator.

:eek:

[floppyb]

https://www.kxly.com/news/national-news/calif-opens-investigation-into-power-shutoffs-during-fires/1136757303

Seems like PG&E can still charge customers during a shutoff?

[Louis]

In Florida you need a canoe and a generator.

:eek:

Looks like you're almost out of the danger period for this year.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/peakofseason_sm.gif

[joosttx]

https://www.kxly.com/news/national-news/calif-opens-investigation-into-power-shutoffs-during-fires/1136757303

Seems like PG&E can still charge customers during a shutoff?

We can not pay the bill. There is a movement for customers not to pay the October bill to PGE. Also, Newsom is working to make sure PGE not charge customers.

[GOTHBROOKS]

the new normal (https://www.thedailybeast.com/pgande-politely-asks-frustrated-customers-to-stop-shooting-at-its-employees)

[bigbill]

My younger sister and her family live in Lake Arrowhead. The permits to have a generator installed are several months backlogged. It isn't just a matter of spending the money. They're adding home batteries in the meantime so they can charge between outages.

I live in the Mohave Desert, the landscape includes solar fields, wind towers, and nothing to really burn.

[buddybikes]

If you can survive the nor-easters move to VT (who is offering 10K? tax credit), NH, or ME...

[FlashUNC]

Throw this guy in jail already.

https://abc7news.com/society/pg-e-ceo-addresses-customers-who-cant-restock-food-spoiled-during-outage/5664648/

[fa63]

Not surprising. Empathy is not a quality that leads to one becoming the CEO of a large company. Lack of it actually helps.

Throw this guy in jail already.

https://abc7news.com/society/pg-e-ceo-addresses-customers-who-cant-restock-food-spoiled-during-outage/5664648/

[XXtwindad]

Throw this guy in jail already.

https://abc7news.com/society/pg-e-ceo-addresses-customers-who-cant-restock-food-spoiled-during-outage/5664648/

That is absolute astonishing. Beyond craven. It's as if he's giving a wink and a nod to the shareholders saying "I got this."

[Big Dan]

^
That's it.
Just waiting for his end of the year bonus.

[Jaybee]

Back to a point I made earlier in the thread... relying on profit-driven entities to provide essential public goods is a failed model.

[Clean39T]

Back to a point I made earlier in the thread... relying on profit-driven entities to provide essential public goods is a failed model.

The thing is though that even the public utility companies (municipal, co-ops, puds, and ccas) all buy from for-profit generators and developers, and transmission lines are maintained and developer by for profit entities....same with the natural gas pipelines and the railways that deliver the coal that still fuels a heavy part of the West's electric load.

And when the various public power entities with surplus generation sell it, it's not like they give it away for free or below market value....they operate in an interconnected wholesale grid with large utilities and independent power producers to balance supply and demand with purchases and sales across the entire West. All of which instantaneously filters down to the distribution level where you flip your switch - it's a massive system, all operating at 60hz so the clocks move on time. It is frankly amazing that the whole thing functions as well as it does.

I'm not saying that there isn't merit in locally/publicly owned utilities, just noting that the profit motive is there upstream (good, bad, or otherwise) and it is a very complicated industry that has trouble changing course overnight given that complexity, the fact that the whole dance has to keep going while changes are made, and the institutional momentum of the way the system was setup and operated for decades.

In the end, the failure here is at multiple levels - regulatory oversight, cross-jurisdictional coordination, and just bad management it appears at the utility level in some critical areas.....among many others.

But here we are - so what comes next?

EDIT ::

It needs to be remembered too that these utilities are regulated at multiple levels - in the wholesale markets by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission who sets rates of return on large-scale investments and weeds-out anti-competitive behavior through a number of programs (to deliver just and reasonable rates for electricity), the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (with regional satellites) who oversee/audit the reliability standards for the industry, and at the state level by the utility commissions who set allowable rates of return on utility asset bases (with many permutations and oddities at least in the western states) and are supposed to act to ensure safe, reliable, affordable power is available for customers - and there are analogues for the publicly-owned utilities. And then there is the legislature...and the Department of Energy...who each have a role in determining how and what type of power is developed and ultimately delivered to end-use consumers. Like I said, it's complicated.

[XXtwindad]

The thing is though that even the public utility companies (municipal, co-ops, puds, and ccas) all buy from for-profit generators and developers, and transmission lines are maintained and developer by for profit entities....same with the natural gas pipelines and the railways that deliver the coal that still fuels a heavy part of CA's electric load.

And when the various public power entities with surplus generation sell it, it's not like they give it away for free or below market value....they operate in an interconnected wholesale grid with large utilities and independent power producers to balance supply and demand with purchases and sales across the entire West.

I'm not saying that there isn't merit in locally/publicly owned utilities, just noting that the profit motive is there upstream and it is a very complicated industry.

The failure here is at multiple levels - regulatory oversight, cross-jurisdictional coordination, and just bad management.....among many others.

But here we are - so what comes next?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

That's some deep insight.

[floppyb]

+1

[joosttx]

That is absolute astonishing. Beyond craven. It's as if he's giving a wink and a nod to the shareholders saying "I got this."

What is amazing is there is no face for PGE. During the blackout they provided piss poor information. The only reliable info that was coming out was from our school district.

[Clean39T]

That's some deep insight.Thanks, added some stuff to round it out.

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[Spdntrxi]

What is amazing is there is no face for PGE. During the blackout they provided piss poor information. The only reliable info that was coming out was from our school district.

I'm no PGE fan.. but who do you think was giving those updates to your school district ? I had signed up for there automated text updates and there where pretty good at keeping up to date.

[joosttx]

I'm no PGE fan.. but who do you think was giving those updates to your school district ? I had signed up for there automated text updates and there where pretty good at keeping up to date.

Their automated updates were usually more than 4 hours off. PGE were giving the updates to the school district and the school district were holding PGE’s feet to the fire to make sure they were accurate.

[unterhausen]

It's kind of funny to come in here and see people blaming the regulators. California power was deregulated and then deregulated again. The problems now are bad, but deregulation has not served the customer base at all. And now there are people pushing for even more deregulation. Utility profits and dividends used to be pretty steady, albeit not up to the level that people got used to from other stocks. But I assert that was a better model than what we have now, where they use the profits for executive compensation.

[Rusty Luggs]

... that deliver the coal that still fuels a heavy part of CA's electric load.....

.

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html

3.3%......

[Clean39T]

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html



3.3%......Sorry, edited a couple times and meant to say "the West" for that..

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[Plum Hill]

It's kind of funny to come in here and see people blaming the regulators. California power was deregulated and then deregulated again. The problems now are bad, but deregulation has not served the customer base at all. And now there are people pushing for even more deregulation. Utility profits and dividends used to be pretty steady, albeit not up to the level that people got used to from other stocks. But I assert that was a better model than what we have now, where they use the profits for executive compensation.

Deregulation “has not served the customer base” across the board, whether it’s utilities, airlines, trucking industry....

[Clean39T]

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-11-03/pg-e-bankruptcy-government-takeover

Good article.

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[dziekiel]

always interesting to see the attitude of those at the helm of capitalistic enterprises change towards "socialistic" or not for profit entities as it suits them.

Because food banks are so well financed and supported that they can easily accommodate a massive spike in need...

[Clean39T]

always interesting to see the attitude of those at the helm of capitalistic enterprises change towards "socialistic" or not for profit entities as it suits them.

Because food banks are so well financed and supported that they can easily accommodate a massive spike in need...

And they must all have backup onsite generators to keep their food from getting spoiled.......

[XXtwindad]

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/bay-area-mayors-calling-on-pge-to-become-customer-owned-utility/