Does a titanium frame always exhibit its ride quality regardless of tire size...?

[nmrt]

So, here is my conundrum. I own two carbon bikes. 1. a carbon frame 27.5 hardtail that has 27.5 X 2.8 tires. 2. a carbon frame gravel bike that has 700 X 40 or 27.5 X 47 tires. I like these two bikes so much that I want to get a Ti bike to replace them both with the exact same geometry. Why Ti. Because I love the ride of Ti over the ride of carbon frames in my road bikes that have 700 X 25 tires. So, my hope is that my replacing my current frames with their Ti twins, I will get that characteristic Ti ride quality that I so cherish.

But I am not sure that at some tire width, the comfort and the cush provided by the wide tires will matter more for ride quality than the frame material. I am wondering if this is correct. Or no matter, the tire size, Ti ride characteristics will always show. And that geometry and componentry being equal in two frames, the Ti frame will always be more comfortable than the carbon frame no matter the tire size.

And yes, I am aware that one can make a Ti frame exceptionally stiff. But I am not talking about these exceptions.

Thanks for your input.

[eddief]

there are great ti frames and not so great ones. regardless of their greatness or lack thereof the right tires at the right pressure will probably be the factor that you would notice the most, especially if cush is your goal.

on the other hand if you for some reason are dedicated to 25mm tires then perhaps material choice could tip the scales toward well done ti. if keeping with rim brakes then medium reach brakes and fatter tires will probably get you away from 25mm and make you love your bike even more.

[PaMtbRider]

I think at that tire size you start to lose some of the subtle ride qualities you will get from a Ti frame. A few pounds of pressure will make a bigger difference than frame material alone.

[joosttx]

Regarding MTB I would say the answer is yes from my experience. I have a Built not sure it translate for other brands.

[AngryScientist]

I will get that characteristic Ti ride quality that I so cherish.


i think your preconceived thoughts of what titanium frames ride like are not a universal truth. the design of the frame, geometry and tube selection makes a huge difference in how any frame rides, titanium included. i have a few Ti frames, and even with the same wheels/tires, the ride is notably different between them.

just a thought.

[John H.]

It depends on the bike. I have had Ti bikes that ride like titanium- I have also had ti bikes that are too stiff and don't feel good to me.
One of these bikes was a ti hardtail built by a decent sized ti brand. The other was built by a well respected builder but I asked for a really large diameter downtube.

I am 5'10 and less than 150 lb.

[Ken Robb]

I think tires that fat will mask any change in ride quality of ti vs. your carbon frames.

[nmrt]

This is the response I was looking for. Confirmation bias. :banana:
Houston, Do you really think you could tell ride quality differences between your steel 44 and the Ti Built. I realize that they are vastly different in geo but at 2.4 in tire width, I was thinking that frame material becomes largely immaterial.

Regarding MTB I would say the answer is yes from my experience. I have a Built not sure it translate for other brands.

[Tony]

It depends on the bike. I have had Ti bikes that ride like titanium- I have also had ti bikes that are too stiff and don't feel good to me.
One of these bikes was a ti hardtail built by a decent sized ti brand. The other was built by a well respected builder but I asked for a really large diameter downtube.

I am 5'10 and less than 150 lb.

This
I've had two ti mtb, one was very stiff, Kona Honzo ti, the other supple, Lynskey Ridgeline.

[joosttx]

This is the response I was looking for. Confirmation bias. :banana:
Houston, Do you really think you could tell ride quality differences between your steel 44 and the Ti Built. I realize that they are vastly different in geo but at 2.4 in tire width, I was thinking that frame material becomes largely immaterial.

What is confirmation bias?

I can without hesitation say that my Built (which is like 8lbs lighter) is a better riding bike than the 44. It was also double the price.

[nmrt]

i wanted to hear that one can feel the characteristic Ti ride attributes even in wider tire sizes so that I could justify buying it, i.e., confirmation bias. and then you gave the evidence for it. :)

But I am not asking about ”better”. I am wondering if at your tire width, can you still feel the ride qualities, springyness etc, that is attributed to titanium. Or is this springyness muted due to the wide tire width.

What is confirmation bias?

I can without hesitation say that my Built (which is like 8lbs lighter) is a better riding bike than the 44. It was also double the price.

[Clancy]

I believe, if building a bike from scratch, you look at the total bike, what it’s intended to do, which wheel standard(s), etc., you choose the frame material on intended use and ride characteristics. For a bike that’s often going to be ridden over varied surfaces, see lots of duty, and often put to bed wet, Ti is just real hard to beat, tough, corrosion resistant, etc. Not just because of any differences in ride qualities but because if a bike has a good chance of doing a couple of tumbles down some gravel roads a carbon frame just doesn’t make as good of sense.

But with all that said, I’ve come to believe Ti is the best frame choice - for me. I haven’t owned a carbon bike in awhile and don’t really miss ‘em. The weight penalty is not that big a deal. My everyday bike, a titanium road bike, disc brakes, is right at 17 lbs, pedals, cages, disc brakes with 28c tires. My last carbon rim brake bike was 15.3, pedals/cages. For me, the ride qualifies of titanium are worth that slight penalty.

Unless building a bike with light weight being one of the goals, titanium is the such a perfect material with steel being a close second - and there’s a lot of very nice steel frames out there right now.

[avalonracing]

have a few Ti frames, and even with the same wheels/tires, the ride is notably different between them.


I've had the same experience. I set my bikes up with exactly the same contact points, components, wheels and tires and I could feel a noticeably different ride on different Ti frames when they were ridden back-to-back.

[nmrt]

Guys, let me clarify my question. I am not comparing Ti bike to Ti bike.
Pick any "non-stiff" Ti bike whose ride quality you like. The slap on some wide tires, lets say 40c. Now go ride it and remember the ride quality.

Then, pick a off the shelf carbon frame whose geo is the same as your Ti bike. We are talking hypothetical here. Then assuming that the componentry is the same, slap those same 40c tires on that carbon bike. Then go ride it and compare the ride quality to your Ti bike.

My question is, at such wide tire widths, does it matter what material we ride. Or is ride quality now being dictated solely by wide 40c or 47c or 2.8 in tire widths.




I've had the same experience. I set my bikes up with exactly the same contact points, components, wheels and tires and I could feel a noticeably different ride on different Ti frames when they were ridden back-to-back.

[Hawker]

I think tires that fat will mask any change in ride quality of ti vs. your carbon frames.

Agree. I only have one of each but on 23mm or 25mm...I can feel the difference as expected. Interestingly, I don't really love the ride of one over the other...but I can feel the weight difference of the Carbon.

[Malinois]

It’s really more in the realm of diminishing returns. Take the Mason Bokeh, for example.

After Mason received a ton of acclaim for the Bokeh, an aluminum 700x40/650x50 rock star of a frame, they decided to go back and reproduce the exact same frame geometry and building techniques except in titanium. The ti version is receiving lots of praise, but not necessarily because of the frame material.

The frame design and quality of construction are what make it work and many people that are riding them for the first time as titanium are vibing off of that as much as the material. While titanium is great in its own way, the same frame in aluminum is excellent as well.

Now, is that increase in frame compliance worth 3x as much $ to you when you’re already rolling around on 45’s at 35psi? Maybe, but it’s a very small tangible difference for a very large chunk of change.

I’m ready to buy one but it’s going to be the alloy version for me. They do look awesome in raw ti though.

[eddief]

i say yes.

Guys, let me clarify my question. I am not comparing Ti bike to Ti bike.
Pick any "non-stiff" Ti bike whose ride quality you like. The slap on some wide tires, lets say 40c. Now go ride it and remember the ride quality.

Then, pick a off the shelf carbon frame whose geo is the same as your Ti bike. We are talking hypothetical here. Then assuming that the componentry is the same, slap those same 40c tires on that carbon bike. Then go ride it and compare the ride quality to your Ti bike.

My question is, at such wide tire widths, does it matter what material we ride. Or is ride quality now being dictated solely by wide 40c or 47c or 2.8 in tire widths.

[charliedid]

The frame doesn't know which tires you are running.

[simonov]

Guys, let me clarify my question. I am not comparing Ti bike to Ti bike.
Pick any "non-stiff" Ti bike whose ride quality you like. The slap on some wide tires, lets say 40c. Now go ride it and remember the ride quality.

Then, pick a off the shelf carbon frame whose geo is the same as your Ti bike. We are talking hypothetical here. Then assuming that the componentry is the same, slap those same 40c tires on that carbon bike. Then go ride it and compare the ride quality to your Ti bike.

My question is, at such wide tire widths, does it matter what material we ride. Or is ride quality now being dictated solely by wide 40c or 47c or 2.8 in tire widths.

I'd still say it depends on the carbon bike being compared and the Ti bike being compared. They're not all equal and some have a wonderful ride quality. But if the question is whether a well designed, nice riding Ti bike will retain that ride quality compared with a poor riding carbon bike when the tires get large, the answer is probably yes, maybe. Your question stacks the deck in favor of the Ti, so you'd feel a difference because you want to. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference, again it depends on the specific frames.

[Duende]

The frame doesn't know which tires you are running.

Exactly, if you prefer Ti over carbon running 25mm, smart money says you’ll prefer Ti over carbon running 47mm for ride quality. That is if you keep the same high pedigree building the frame of course.

Performance and ride quality aren’t the same thing though right? Ridden some Carbon frames that descended probably better and more confidence inspiring than either my steel or Ti bikes.. but they didn’t feel as good or engage me when I’m cranking away and the hours pass by.

It’s really about compromises and figuring out what works best for you.

[sparky33]

The frame still matters when you are running wide tires.

Some bikes feel just right, some bikes feel jarring and some bikes feel mushy. And they will have different pedaling response too.

This isn’t necessarily a frame material thing either. There is a range of titanium ride-feel, for example.

[colker]

No one ever said "let´s remake this Sachs in carbon so it will be better" or "let´s remake my Pinarello f8 in titanium so it´s smoother". It´s not the material but the balance of everything that makes the magic happens. There are outstanding bikes in all three materials.

[simonov]

No one ever said "let´s remake this Sachs in carbon so it will be better" or "let´s remake my Pinarello f8 in titanium so it´s smoother". It´s not the material but the balance of everything that makes the magic happens. There are outstanding bikes in all three materials.

All four materials. Don't forget Aluminum, which can be made into a wonderful bike with the right design.

[colker]

All four materials. Don't forget Aluminum, which can be made into a wonderful bike with the right design.

Definitely. Gaulzetti comes to mind.

[simonov]

Definitely. Gaulzetti comes to mind.

Yep. Exactly who I had in mind. His Corsa was great. His Interclub is even better.

[Duende]

I actually disagree. From what I’ve seen, a lot more can be done with molded Carbon to enhance frame performance than traditional steel or titanium tubing

Not a carbon fanboy by any means. But for sheer performance spec... it
the material to beat.

[kingpin75s]

Design specifics aside and just speaking on the general benefits of the material, all else being equal.

For me, the harder you ride Ti, the more you feel it's ride quality.

Bigger tires and really want to feel the benefits, then ride it hard and in the rough. Let it shine.

I run a lot of Ti for road, gravel and mountain. I appreciate it most on my rigid 26er and rigid 29ers.

[mhespenheide]

I actually disagree. From what I’ve seen, a lot more can be done with molded Carbon to enhance frame performance than traditional steel or titanium tubing

Not a carbon fanboy by any means. But for sheer performance spec... it
the material to beat.

We're heading off-topic to the thread here, but this is what makes me curious: the carbon Look 585 had a reputation as a great all-day frame, but for many years after that, carbon manufacturers chased the ideals of stiffness and light weight. What would a modern carbon bike ride like if the designers chased the ideal of all-day ride quality?

[colker]

I appreciate it most on my rigid 26er and rigid 29ers.

IF de luxe?

[Dekonick]

i think your preconceived thoughts of what titanium frames ride like are not a universal truth. the design of the frame, geometry and tube selection makes a huge difference in how any frame rides, titanium included. i have a few Ti frames, and even with the same wheels/tires, the ride is notably different between them.

just a thought.

This is absolutely true. I owned two, identical in every way, Serotta Legends. One big difference: One had DKS bent rear stays with medium elastomers, the other a standard Ti Legend. Same forks, bars, wheels, saddles, geometry - everything. Same tires, same tubes... I sold the standard Legend once it became clear how much superior the cornering and descending was on the Hors Categorie DKS frame. Design... materials... They do matter.

[colker]

We're heading off-topic to the thread here, but this is what makes me curious: the carbon Look 585 had a reputation as a great all-day frame, but for many years after that, carbon manufacturers chased the ideals of stiffness and light weight. What would a modern carbon bike ride like if the designers chased the ideal of all-day ride quality?

Stiff can be comfortable and soft can be a handfull. Pegorettis are stiff but they are usually described as all day bikes. As long as the the bike is planted and not kicking me out everytime i go over bad surfaces i am comfortable on it. A nervous ultra sensitive bike leaves me tired. Stiffness or softness don´t define comfort anymore ime.

[kingpin75s]

IF de luxe?

Dean Colonel Dirt Drop 26er with Igleheart BOI replica fork.

Matt Chester MuTinyman w/Kelly fork, Jeff Jones (M)ones Spaceframe with Ti Truss and Willits Trail King w/Type II on the 29er end of rigid.

[colker]

Dean Colonel Dirt Drop 26er with Igleheart BOI replica fork.

Matt Chester MuTinyman w/Kelly fork, Jeff Jones (M)ones Spaceframe with Ti Truss and Willits Trail King w/Type II on the 29er end of rigid.

NIce selection. Makes me want even more a rigid fork on my Ibis 26er.

[kingpin75s]

NIce selection. Makes me want even more a rigid fork on my Ibis 26er.

Hope you got a hand job with that one ;)

[colker]

Hope you got a hand job with that one ;)

.... sniff... it´s a 2000, one of the last generations so no handjob for me. Still rim brake though. I would like to throw a leg over the ti mojo and check the hype.

[kingpin75s]

.... sniff... it´s a 2000, one of the last generations so no handjob for me. Still rim brake though. I would like to throw a leg over the ti mojo and check the hype.

Still rides like a Mojo I bet.

Me too. Mojo Ti with hand job. One that has been on the short list for a long time. That said, it seems Wes incorporated a lot of the construction techniques from the Mojo Ti into his designs like the Trail King. You just don't see tapered chain stays like that in Ti.