Veloflex releases new "carbon safe" clincher tyres

[robertbb]

Veloflex just blogged that their clincher "open tubular" line-up has been redesigned to incorporate a "Sidewall Protection System" making it supported for use with carbon clinchers.

https://www.veloflex.it/en/blog/post/veloflex-sps

Great news for those of us who run carbon clinchers. Hopefully other manufacturers will follow suit.

(I wonder if the redesign will improve sidewall puncture resistance, or affect ride characteristics in any way)

[buddybikes]

Now if they joined the competition (least semi) and put up some challenges to Renee Herse Compass...

[robertbb]

What makes those tyres so good?

Why does one guy design a tyre so much better than anyone else (including ones that spend millions in R&D)

[ergott]

Now if they joined the competition (least semi) and put up some challenges to Renee Herse Compass...

If only Ferrari could join the competition and make a pickup truck that tows 14500lbs.

[Black Dog]

What makes those tyres so good?

Why does one guy design a tyre so much better than anyone else (including ones that spend millions in R&D)

Because they are made by one of the major tire makers. He specs what he wants out of the tire and they design and engineer the tires for him.

[sales guy]

What makes those tyres so good?

Why does one guy design a tyre so much better than anyone else (including ones that spend millions in R&D)

Because they are made by one of the major tire makers. He specs what he wants out of the tire and they design and engineer the tires for him.

Actually, Veloflex is owned by 2 older brothers. They design and make everything in Italy. They used to make tires for Vittoria before starting VeloFlex in the 80's. They make a very small number of tires yearly for retail sale compared to the big companies. At one point is was only 8000 pairs every six months. They make custom tires for people like S and B and others to use in the Pro Tour. Some even have them make their production ones but usually it's just the Pro Use ones.

[ergott]

Why does one guy design a tyre so much better than anyone else (including ones that spend millions in R&D)

I've read many complaints about how fragile they can be. What good is a nice riding tire that can't reliably get you to the finish?

[m4rk540]

Actually, Veloflex is owned by 2 older brothers. They design and make everything in Italy. They used to make tires for Vittoria before starting VeloFlex in the 80's. They make a very small number of tires yearly for retail sale compared to the big companies. At one point is was only 8000 pairs every six months. They make custom tires for people like S and B and others to use in the Pro Tour. Some even have them make their production ones but usually it's just the Pro Use ones.

Robert was referring to Jan Heine.

[jpritchet74]

This is great news! I have always love Veloflex tires.

I have a feeling that other tire manufacturers will follow suit though. Lots of reports out there about the new Vittoria tires getting these sidewall cuts.

[robertbb]

So if I was to call Panaracer, tell them I want a tyre with a particular tread pattern, width, height, weight, characteristics and put in an order for a few thousand pairs they'd do all the engineering and production and slap my logo on it? And it'd be better than anything they themselves produce?

That's like me going to Giant, giving them a description of a bike that's "really aero and light and laterally stiff and vertically compliant"... and stuff... and they go ahead and build me better frames than their highest-end in-house TCR SL.

What a brilliant idea. Think I'll do that... now to pay velonews, cyclingcentral and that British show on youtube to run some articles...

:fight:

[YesNdeed]

I've read many complaints about how fragile they can be. What good is a nice riding tire that can't reliably get you to the finish?

Begs the question about geographical specificity, and what your race day tire is depending on where you ride. The Southwest is as harsh as it gets, in my experience. Your Corsa tubulars in the Northeast will get you a DNF or DFL here in the dry, goat head, lavic shard ridden high desert.

[Mark McM]

So if I was to call Panaracer, tell them I want a tyre with a particular tread pattern, width, height, weight, characteristics and put in an order for a few thousand pairs they'd do all the engineering and production and slap my logo on it? And it'd be better than anything they themselves produce?

Define "better".

There is no absolute measure of "better" for anything. Everything has a combination of characteristics, some of which may be better in some ways and worse in others. Its entirely possible that a company makes a product which is great for one set of customers, but that would be "better" for a different set of customers just by modifying a few parameters.

An excellent example is frame building. Many large production frame builders produce "stock" builds, with geometries and features that serve most customers well. But sometimes a particular customer needs or wants a different spec (geometry, features, etc.), and often the frame builder can produce a custom frame (sometimes at a small upcharge). For that particular customer, the modified frame is "better" - even if it is not better for most other customers. I see no reason that similar customization of tires isn't possible.

[charliedid]

So if I was to call Panaracer, tell them I want a tyre with a particular tread pattern, width, height, weight, characteristics and put in an order for a few thousand pairs they'd do all the engineering and production and slap my logo on it? And it'd be better than anything they themselves produce?

That's like me going to Giant, giving them a description of a bike that's "really aero and light and laterally stiff and vertically compliant"... and stuff... and they go ahead and build me better frames than their highest-end in-house TCR SL.

What a brilliant idea. Think I'll do that... now to pay velonews, cyclingcentral and that British show on youtube to run some articles...

:fight:

That's sort of how manufacturing works, no?

[robertbb]

Can't tell if shills or trolls.

Don't care much either.

[happycampyer]

Doesn’t Panaracer make Jack Browns and Roll-y Pol-ys for Rivendell exclusively? For the longest time, if one wanted a premium, reasonably supple 32mm tire, the Jack Browns were it. Most tires in that category were designed for commuting, and puncture resistance was prioritized over other qualities (ride quality/suppleness, etc.). The kings of supple race tires (Veloflex, Vittoria, FMB, Dugast) made/make 30+mm tubular tires for ‘cross, but none with a file tread. I suppose one could special order some 32mm file-tread tubulars from FMB or Dugast with a big enough order (and perhaps even splurge for silk casing). Of those companies that even make clinchers, the widest clincher was/is typically 27 - 28mm.

Afaik, Jan Heine was the first person to get Panaracer to make a more supple, wide tire, at a time when none of the other big-brand makers (Schwalbe, Kenda, Continental, etc.) had anything comparable. Now that the niche has proven itself, the bigger companies have started to make competing products. I wouldn’t hold my breath for Veloflex or Vittoria to jump on the bandwagon.

[merckx]

Grand Bois was also proactive with getting large volume clinchers to market via Panaracer. They predated Compass.

[sparky33]

Afaik, Jan Heine was the first person to get Panaracer to make a more supple, wide tire, at a time when none of the other big-brand makers (Schwalbe, Kenda, Continental, etc.) had anything comparable. Now that the niche has proven itself, the bigger companies have started to make competing products. I wouldn’t hold my breath for Veloflex or Vittoria to jump on the bandwagon.

If only... I am excitedly waiting delivery of new 28mm Veloflex Raven tubs...a whole one millimeter wider than the 27mm predecessor... and of colossal 30mm Vittoria Corsa tubs. I guess the purists are still pure(ly skinny). But this is tubular, and one can't be kitted properly when gluing anything wider.

Thank goodness for the Grand Bois Compass Rene Herse lineage. That blew the doors off what was understood and made bikes way more fun.

[AngryScientist]

for road tires, veloflex is still top of the heap for best ride quality race tires. i obviously havent tried this new batch, but they are still the gold standard as far as i'm concerned for road tires. they are a bit on the delicate side, but with fast supple race tires, punctures are a matter of luck largely, and veloflex has treated me well thus far.

vittoria G+ tires are running a close second and add a bit more durability. these are generally my go-to road tire because they ride so well and last a little longer than the veloflex.

all of the other good road race typed tires are very good these days and the gap to the top tier tires (veloflex/vittoria) is closing fast. I've got a set of new Pirelli Velo tires i'm waiting to try, and the newest schwalbe race tires are supposed to be very good. it boils down to a preference thing these days.

the compass tires are a different category of tire IMO, i see no realistic comparison between veloflex tires and compass, they are for different styles of riding.

[happycampyer]

Grand Bois was also proactive with getting large volume clinchers to market via Panaracer. The predated Compass.I had forgotten about Grand Bois. This post from VO from 2007 gives some background on Grand Bois. Sounds like Grand Bois was sort of like a Japanese Rivendell(?), i.e, a bike builder and shop that had Panaracer make tires for them.

https://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2007/03/grand-bois-tires-and-rando-rack.html

I was always under the impression that Jan Heine had some connection with Grand Bois. It seems as if at first, perhaps not. But looking at the blog post where Compass tires were introduced, there is a description of collaborating with Grand Bois and Challenge:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/introducing-the-full-line-of-compass-tires/

[merckx]

I had forgotten about Grand Bois. This post from VO from 2007 gives some background on Grand Bois. Sounds like Grand Bois was sort of like a Japanese Rivendell(?), i.e, a bike builder and shop that had Panaracer make tires for them.

https://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2007/03/grand-bois-tires-and-rando-rack.html

I was always under the impression that Jan Heine had some connection with Grand Bois. It seems as if at first, perhaps not. But looking at the blog post where Compass tires were introduced, there is a description of collaborating with Grand Bois and Challenge:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/introducing-the-full-line-of-compass-tires/

Good Stuff. Thank you for the additional historical perspective.

[AngryScientist]

Peter Weigle also did a great podcast that i have to dig up that talked about the early days of large volume supple tires and remembers taking touring oriented tires to the belt sander to shave some tread and weight. all this was not too long ago relatively speaking - we have come a long way since than with regard to larger volume "all road" tires, for sure!

[merckx]

If you have ever ridden a standard diameter steel racing bicycle equipped with a pair of tub wheels, you will know where my perspective on current bicycle technology was derived. The development and reintroduction of large volume bicycle tires may be a response to over-engineered bicycle frames, and a misguided arms-race over frame stiffness. Large volume tires were once standard equipment developed to tame primitive road surfaces. When roads improved, tire volume decreased. As bicycle frame tubing evolved to include increased diameter, and uber-engineered carbon chassis, the tire volume began to increase again. I understand that road surface quality has begun to deteriorate, and dirt road riding has been reintroduced to our riding options, and these are good reasons to slip a pair of bloated wheels into our frames, but it seems that we are searching for something that we once had with lightweight steel frames and tubular wheels.

[Mark McM]

If you have ever ridden a standard diameter steel racing bicycle equipped with a pair of tub wheels, you will know where my perspective on current bicycle technology was derived. The development and reintroduction of large volume bicycle tires may be a response to over-engineered bicycle frames, and a misguided arms-race over frame stiffness. Large volume tires were once standard equipment developed to tame primitive road surfaces. When roads improved, tire volume decreased. As bicycle frame tubing evolved to include increased diameter, and uber-engineered carbon chassis, the tire volume began to increase again. I understand that road surface quality has begun to deteriorate, and dirt road riding has been reintroduced to our riding options, and these are good reasons to slip a pair of bloated wheels into our frames, but it seems that we are searching for something that we once had with lightweight steel frames and tubular wheels.

I'm not sure this matches actual history At least not in the US. In the 1970s and 1980s (before MTB were popular), most people's road bikes were of the "touring" and "sport touring" variety, and had tires of 28mm - 32mm. Only a few people (mostly serious racers) rode narrower tires. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, a few things happened: Triathlon was become popular; with Greg Lemond's success in Europe, road racing was becoming known in the US; aerodynamics was becoming part of the racing bike vernacular; and hooked bead rims and foldable lightweight high pressure clincher tires were being developed. More people were interested in going fast on their bikes. Because it was widely assumed that narrower tires were faster (because they had a smaller contact patch), and also because narrower tires and wheels had less air resistance, more people began using narrow high pressure tires. Then when Lance Armstrong started winning the Tour de France in 1999, everyone was convinced they needed a bike like his, and racing bikes (with narrow high pressure tires) became the norm.

Because of the desire for stiffer and lighter bikes (and for everyone to have bikes like their favorite pro racers rode), fat tubed aluminum and carbon fiber bikes also became common during this period. But which was the cause of bikes giving harsher rides? Science, direct measurements, and blind rider testing have given us the answer: It was the change to narrower, higher pressure tires that made the biggest difference in ride compliance. Diamond frames are so stiff vertical (regardless of material), that differences in frame stiffness are much less of an influence in ride compliance than tire flex.

The recent move to wider tires has more to do with changes in the types of riding being done (more adventure riding, for example), and changes in rider aspirations (fewer riders are selecting bikes based on what pro racers are riding), than it has to do with changes in bike frame materials. If anything, the move to wider, lower pressure tires is more of a correction, than it is new direction.