Stainless vs steel

[clarendon]

Hi -

I am considering a custom road/light gravel frame and looking at Columbus XCR or Spirit.

Reading through various sites, what I have learned seems to be that XCR is stiffer, can be left unpainted so it doesn't suffer paint chips, but is more expensive and possibly dents more easily. I also read somewhere that all the builders say go for Ti if you're willing to spend on S/S as Xcr is a pain to work with!

Grateful for any insights/experiences on the trade offs...

Thanks in advance.

[joosttx]

Stainless is difficult to work with so the builder must know what they are doing. Plus there are more ti tubes to build a bike with which makes it easier to dial in what you want. Finally I have heard stainless is thinner walled which make it easier to dent,

[Peter B]

Columbus Spirit is a great tubeset but is a lightweight option. Offroad robustness and dent resistance will not be its strongest points. If one were evaluating that or SS I'd encourage you to consider ti instead. SS is 'rust resistant' but not to the degree of ti. And one builder comfortable with steel may not be experienced with ti.

Discuss your needs and desires with your subject builders and listen to their feedback.

Not sure who you're considering but a few reputable builders fluent in gravel, steel and ti include:

Carl Strong
Erik Rolf (Alliance)
Mike DeSalvo

These three have strong pedigree, deep experience, reasonable lead times and proven abilities. They can serve as a solid starting point. There are many others so exercise your due diligence. Use the forum search tool to discover more. Your geographic locale is another consideration.

Good luck and have fun with the process!

[clarendon]

Thank you both - that is very helpful as I look into builders. Do you happen to know if any of these are able to work with the Ritchey Breakaway system as a custom option? I imagine both will offer S&S couplers.

Thanks again.

[Peter B]

I suspect any I mentioned are. Seeing that you are on the east coast there are likely many qualified builders closer to you. IME it is preferred to work with someone 'local' if possible. Google or forum searches should yield a list.

Here's a start:
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=113817&highlight=framebuilders

In NY Coast can do trad steel quite well. Bedford can do steel, ti or AL. 22 has you covered for ti.

Plenty of other options as you widen your circle of consideration.

[berserk87]

As others have said, I think that the cost of stainless steel versus Ti make stainless a less popular option. I don't see the advantage of stainless next compared to Ti if cost is similar.

[Peter B]

See also these links:

http://sandsmachine.com/

http://sandsmachine.com/fbplist.htm

[SPOKE]

Give David Kirk a call if you want to know the pros & cons of stainless. His Onesto model is absolutely fantastic!!!! Kelly Bedford works with all frame materials. He can provide good insight too.
I have a frame from Kelly that uses stainless tubes for the main triangle and love the way it rides. The Onesto that Dave built for me uses the Reynolds SS tube set as well as a SS fork. The geometry is a bit more “sporty” than most of my custom bikes and I find that I usually grab it when I head out for a group ride that I expect to be a good bit faster than when I ride by myself.
The bead blasted finish of the Onesto seems to do a good job of fending off the dreaded rust spots that can plague a brushed finish stainless frame.

[Hellgate]

Give Max Kullaway a call at 333fab. He builds with Ti, steel, and SS on a regular basis and can give you the skinny.

I'd argue all three materials are very good with nuances between them. In other words, regardless of what you select, a good builder will create a wonderful ride for you.

https://333fab.com/materials

[zzy]

XCr rides great if your builder can handle it. I prefer it to my Ti bikes. 953 is especially hard to work with too, even harder than XCr.

[makoti]

I have a SS bike & the guy who built it (John Hollands) did say that he had a time working with the tubing. Broke a few bits & cutting it was difficult. However, he didn't suggest that we try a different type of tubing. Glad, because it rides great. KVA tubing.

[bikinchris]

Independent Fabrication built a few stainless steel bikes for me over the years. Beautiful finish. They also learned a lot about building with the first ones due to SS being more brittle.

[bob heinatz]

As already suggested contact Dave Kirk about ss vs steel. I had Dave build me a steel road bike earlier this year and I absolutely love it. However his ss would have been also an excellent option for the riding I do.

[clarendon]

Thanks all, very helpful.

I’ve just been riding an IndyFab SSR which I rented on holiday in Mallorca so I know how lovely that is to ride and their finish is superb (I thoroughly recommend Gary at www.nplus1bicycles.com if you are ever looking for a rental in Pollenca.. absolutely first rate bikes, lovely chap and great service).

I am taking a look at David Kirk and 333fab. Really beautiful bikes too...

[cmg]

i had an Independent Fab SSR, beautiful bike. a wonderfully responsive bike , lighter then any steel bike I've had. Consider IF for a custom SSR or their TI bikes, can't go wrong. My SSR was custom for someone else and the longer head tube allowed me to ride with the stem slammed. looked cool.

[pdmtong]

generally speaking stainless is harder to work with and comes in fewer tubing options than steel or ti. this is reflected in the higher pricing for a SS frame.

Reynolds 953 I believe was the first to market. Early on reynolds had supply issues and builders turned to KVA. Columbus introduced XcR as their stainless offering (Dario uses XcR for the Responsorium). The material is rust resistant, not rust proof.

I had a stock geo IF SSR 953 SEC (carbon wishbone seatstays) with reynolds ouzo pro fork. This was TIG'd/built in the tyler/jamie/kevin era. I built it with new at the time 2010 Force 10 (a really light group) ksyriums and carbon cockpit and it was low 17's.

Contrary to others here, I never loved the ride. it was unremarkable.

I replaced that frame with a Responsorium which actually built up closer to 18. A "heavier" overall bike yet it rides "lighter" and has this really comfortable gliding muted bump soaking characteristic to it.

I used the same kysrium wheelset/tires/psi on both the SSR and the Responsorium.

The only thing I can conclude that material alone is an insufficient attribute to determine the resultant ride. Here we have two stock geo bikes, both from stainless, yet they couldn't have felt more dissimilar.

Of course it has to do with the individual tube choices and their placement in the frame by the builder. As you know, steel can be light, carbon can be heavy. And a skilled builder can deliver the ride you want utilizing a variety and mix of material choices.

Stainless could work for you if your gravel is occasional and you ride conservatively. If you ride hard and aggressively on dirt, I think titanium as others have mentioned would be a better choice for build options and durability.

[sparky33]

As already suggested contact Dave Kirk about ss vs steel. I had Dave build me a steel road bike earlier this year and I absolutely love it. However his ss would have been also an excellent option for the riding I do.

My 853 steel and 953 stainless Kirks felt pretty similar, but they sure looked different.

I am not convinced that stainless steel has an inherently different ride quality. It is a pinch lighter maybe.

[coreyaugustus]

I’ve just been riding an IndyFab SSR which I rented on holiday in Mallorca...

Well dang. That's a nice rental.


I am taking a look at David Kirk and 333fab. Really beautiful bikes too...

I'm very pleased with my 333fab. Columbus Spirit/Life. Rides amazing. Pretty sure Max can work with whatever material and come up with something good.

[verbs4us]

The boyz at Firefly, who came out of IF, used to offer a SS option. It's no longer on their website and I suspect demand was so low, compared to Ti, that they discontinued it. Still, they build fabulous frames, so a call to Kevin Wolfson might be in order if you want to give them a shout.

[bicycletricycle]

I think stainless is nice and has advantages over titanium, especially in the stiffness department. If the stainless is raw it really should be polished, it will make it a lot more rust resistant (and expensive)

Go with a builder who specializes in stainless.

[InspectorGadget]

I have a stainless steel Ritte Snob (https://ritte.cc/products/snob) disc that I love. The Snob would likely lean pretty heavily on the lightest side of gravel due to tire clearance. The 28mm Schwalbe Pro 1 tubeless tires fit just fine, but there isn't a bunch more room for a more serious gravel tire.

[clarendon]

The Ritte is a nice looking bike. I really enjoyed the feel of the IF SSR but it is considerably more expensive (3895 vs 2200). Not sure why this would be?

[zzy]

One is made in the US of brand name material, and the other isn't. Honestly, IF has - by far - the most experience with SS at this point and seems like the logical choice if you can swing it. I know I love mine.

[David Kirk]

Here's my two cents on stainless -

- almost every bike I've built over the past 10ish years has been built with at least some stainless tubing and 99.9% of that has been Reynolds 953....some of it stock but much of it custom for me and my brand.

- I have found that the material might be thin but it is extremely hard so it ends up being very dent resistant.

- I've not had a single tube failure in the hundreds of my bikes out there using stainless tubes....not one. I have not found 953 to be in any way brittle but I only braze (lugged or fillet) the tubes and don't ever subject them to the extreme heat of TIG welding causing a serious heat affected zone. IMHO brazing is by far the best way to hook together stainless bike tubes.

- I don't think that stainless has a given "ride" to it compared to steel...but...(you just knew there was a 'but' didn't you?) it can be hard to compare apples to apples. The thing is that the 953 tubes are thinner than any of the steel tubes Reynolds offers and I use the thinnest tubes Reynolds makes so this means that most of my part or full stainless bikes are lighter and a bit smoother riding than a steel bike I would make.

- Only a small percentage of my work is full stainless....most of it is part stainless and part steel and these bikes are fully painted. My JK Special model uses some stainless but not for it's 'stainless' properties but instead because it's the lightest and strongest stuff I can buy and it gives the ride I work so very hard for.

- stainless is very hard so therefore it's hard to cut and shape. I do not use hole saws but instead do the mitering with abrasives which are at least harder than the tubes! If you are ham-fisted and just rip into a thin wall stainless tube with a hacksaw you will ruin the blade on the first cut. As with everything there's a right and wrong way to do it. Do it wrong and you will complain about how hard it is to work with. If you want a stainless bike and the builder laments that it's so hard to deal with I'd find another builder who knows how to work the material. It's only hard if you do it wrong.


I love Reynolds 953. I'll continue to use it until I retire and if they stop making it in 6 months I just might retire in 8. It's fantastic stuff and has a wonderful ride as anyone with a JKS or Onesto can attest.

OK - that was 3 cents worth.

dave

[donevwil]

Great read, thank you for taking the time Dave. Well more than 3 cents worth.

[clarendon]

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience Dave, very informative. Much to think over... The Onesto is a very beautiful bike and it's clear that a huge amount of work goes into each

[gibbo]

Great topic, using stainless in the rear triangle has substantial benefits due to its toughness and corrosion resistance. Paint gets beat up over time with enough usage in this area, but the exposed SS will look fresh for much longer.

If you prefer paint over the SS, that’s cool, you still have the benefits of corrosion resistance and the toughness of SS.

This is what I did, here is a quick pic for an example:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191023/8883a4610166bac7ac8601938edabe05.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bikinchris]

Waterford also makes a good stainless steel bike that is brazed.

https://waterfordbikes.com/artisan-stainless-22-series/

[bob heinatz]

Thanks Dave for your very informative reply. I remember reading somewhere under your builders forum you explaining the differences between steel and stainless steel. Since you built me my dream bike earlier this year a JKS, are the stainless tubes the chain stays?

[Rudy]

Here's my two cents on stainless -

- almost every bike I've built over the past 10ish years has been built with at least some stainless tubing and 99.9% of that has been Reynolds 953....some of it stock but much of it custom for me and my brand.

- I have found that the material might be thin but it is extremely hard so it ends up being very dent resistant.

- I've not had a single tube failure in the hundreds of my bikes out there using stainless tubes....not one. I have not found 953 to be in any way brittle but I only braze (lugged or fillet) the tubes and don't ever subject them to the extreme heat of TIG welding causing a serious heat affected zone. IMHO brazing is by far the best way to hook together stainless bike tubes.

- I don't think that stainless has a given "ride" to it compared to steel...but...(you just knew there was a 'but' didn't you?) it can be hard to compare apples to apples. The thing is that the 953 tubes are thinner than any of the steel tubes Reynolds offers and I use the thinnest tubes Reynolds makes so this means that most of my part or full stainless bikes are lighter and a bit smoother riding than a steel bike I would make.

- Only a small percentage of my work is full stainless....most of it is part stainless and part steel and these bikes are fully painted. My JK Special model uses some stainless but not for it's 'stainless' properties but instead because it's the lightest and strongest stuff I can buy and it gives the ride I work so very hard for.

- stainless is very hard so therefore it's hard to cut and shape. I do not use hole saws but instead do the mitering with abrasives which are at least harder than the tubes! If you are ham-fisted and just rip into a thin wall stainless tube with a hacksaw you will ruin the blade on the first cut. As with everything there's a right and wrong way to do it. Do it wrong and you will complain about how hard it is to work with. If you want a stainless bike and the builder laments that it's so hard to deal with I'd find another builder who knows how to work the material. It's only hard if you do it wrong.


I love Reynolds 953. I'll continue to use it until I retire and if they stop making it in 6 months I just might retire in 8. It's fantastic stuff and has a wonderful ride as anyone with a JKS or Onesto can attest.

OK - that was 3 cents worth.

dave


This is bank. Not a lot left to say. (Dave Wages might usefully relate his experience.) Much appreciated.

[oldpotatoe]

Waterford also makes a good stainless steel bike that is brazed.

https://waterfordbikes.com/artisan-stainless-22-series/

I had one, fancy lugs and it was beautiful but when compared to my TrueTemper, non stainless lugged Waterford bike..it sure rode the same, same dimensions. BUT it was easily 3 times the $..for that kinda $, I'd say go with Titanium..

[soulspinner]

This is bank. Not a lot left to say. (Dave Wages might usefully relate his experience.) Much appreciated.

+1. Thanks Dave.

[David Kirk]

Thanks Dave for your very informative reply. I remember reading somewhere under your builders forum you explaining the differences between steel and stainless steel. Since you built me my dream bike earlier this year a JKS, are the stainless tubes the chain stays?

I use 953 stainless for the top and down tubes on the JKS and, depending on the size of the frame and weight of the rider possibly a 953 seat tube. The c-stays, s-stays, and fork blades are special steel parts made just for the JKS by Reynolds.

dave

[bob heinatz]

Thanks Dave.

[Clancy]

I have a stainless frame by Dave Anderson and the ride is sublime. I choose the extra expense of the SS in order to achieve the look that I wanted which is a polished fork, lugs, polished chain and seatstays. Spectacular. Solid, comfortable, fits perfectly, steers, descends, etc.

I have a Ti frame by Lauren Trout, Saila Bikes, beautifully made, beads as fine as you’ll see from any custom builder, she does wonderful work. Fits perfectly, handles razor sharp, smooth with the full Ti qualities of the small vibration absorption but still stiff.

My favorite one tends to be the one I’m on, I enjoy them both, they ride completely differently but I can’t say ones better than the other or the stainless has a certain quality over Ti in terms of ride.

Once a frame becomes a total bicycle the different qualities of the frame materials I believe become muted by so many different factors, the selection of the builder, who chooses the geometry, tubing, then you have wheel choice and tires which play a huge factor. When picking what type of frame to go with it’s the intent of the finished bike.

This is of course if comparing pretty similar builds, geometry, etc.

With that said, for a bike that is intended for mixed use Ti is pretty hard to top if one can afford, lifetime bike. After that I’d still go with a quality steel frame over stainless. There is a difference in weight, but once absorbed by the rest of the components tends to become minimal. But for the price of a stainless steel frame, if I was going for an all around bike or the bike was going to be my number one bike, titanium is just such a great material.

[NHAero]

Similar here. I also have a custom stainless bike by Dave Anderson, because I wanted a lugged frame, and to see some of his exquisite workmanship not covered by paint. And I have a Ti Firefly. Both wonderful bikes. They do have different purposes - Firefly is pure road, Anderson is all-road.

If it weren't for wanting lugs, the all-road would have been Ti. Not sure I see why I'd want a welded stainless frame over a Ti frame (but others may have reasons).

I have a stainless frame by Dave Anderson and the ride is sublime. I choose the extra expense of the SS in order to achieve the look that I wanted which is a polished fork, lugs, polished chain and seatstays. Spectacular. Solid, comfortable, fits perfectly, steers, descends, etc.

I have a Ti frame by Lauren Trout, Saila Bikes, beautifully made, beads as fine as you’ll see from any custom builder, she does wonderful work. Fits perfectly, handles razor sharp, smooth with the full Ti qualities of the small vibration absorption but still stiff.

My favorite one tends to be the one I’m on, I enjoy them both, they ride completely differently but I can’t say ones better than the other or the stainless has a certain quality over Ti in terms of ride.

Once a frame becomes a total bicycle the different qualities of the frame materials I believe become muted by so many different factors, the selection of the builder, who chooses the geometry, tubing, then you have wheel choice and tires which play a huge factor. When picking what type of frame to go with it’s the intent of the finished bike.

This is of course if comparing pretty similar builds, geometry, etc.

With that said, for a bike that is intended for mixed use Ti is pretty hard to top if one can afford, lifetime bike. After that I’d still go with a quality steel frame over stainless. There is a difference in weight, but once absorbed by the rest of the components tends to become minimal. But for the price of a stainless steel frame, if I was going for an all around bike or the bike was going to be my number one bike, titanium is just such a great material.

[Burnette]

Dave Anderson does fantastic work. If going stainless it would be an Anderson bike for me. The attention to detail is exceptional.


http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSCN1544.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/sets/

[bikinchris]

SOMA even made a limited run of stainless bikes.

[bfd]

Dave Anderson does fantastic work. If going stainless it would be an Anderson bike for me. The attention to detail is exceptional.


http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSCN1544.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/sets/

Very clean! Dave Kirk's Onesto seat tube lug is also very clean too:

http://kirkframeworks.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_9182-480x480.jpg

Both know how to work with stainless steel!

Good Luck!

[clarendon]

This may be a somewhat leftfield question... but is anyone aware of a custom builder, experienced with 953 or XCr, who has built frames using the Ritchey Breakaway system to create a travel version of their frames? I know Holland cycles can do this using Ti but haven’t come across any reference to steel builders. Thanks

[Burnette]

This may be a somewhat leftfield question... but is anyone aware of a custom builder, experienced with 953 or XCr, who has built frames using the Ritchey Breakaway system to create a travel version of their frames? I know Holland cycles can do this using Ti but haven’t come across any reference to steel builders. Thanks

Anderson Custom Bicycles does couplings, it looks like jewelry, awesome work:

http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSCN5508.jpg
http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSCN5487.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7008/6596255323_8b35b6e3ff_b.jpg
http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSCN5550.jpg

[grateful]

Wow!

[tigoat]

I have had a few XCr stainless bikes and of course many Ti bikes over the years. If you ask me now which I like better, I would say a fully butted and properly designed light Ti bike. However, getting/wanting a stainless frame/bike has nothing to do with if it is better or worse than other materials. I want to own a stainless frame because it is stainless, case closed. FYI, XCr tubes are very stiff, in fact, they are probably too stiff for my liking. There are many builders that can work with stainless tubes nowadays but I would get one from an experienced builder with the shortest amount of wait time, anything over a year of wait is too long for me.