Serotta tubes and BB shell sought.

[Neil]

Morning all, I need to rebuild my CSi (pictures to follow), it’s been one of my favourite bikes and I’ve ridden it in the UK, around Europe and in the US so it has a lot of personal value to accompany the miles it’s done.

I’m now in need of a swaged downtube, seat tube and bottom bracket shell- said BB shell needs to be for 35mm tubes.

I seem to recall that Bilenky bought the swaging machines from Saratoga - is that correct or am I mistaken?

Even if they’d make me the correct tubes I’d still need a BB shell - would anyone have a lead for me?

Thanks!

[peanutgallery]

Bronze that one and get a new one...seriously

If you've blown out a BB, seattube and downtube...willing to bet you've got a few other things going on. Plus the cost of the project. The CSI was a great bike, but....

[Neil]

I've not crashed it, but to rebuild it to a perfect state is going to take those parts. Over here in the UK it's a very rare bike, so finding another is not straightforward.

[ultraman6970]

Which problems do you actually have with the frame???

Do you have pictures? asking because here usually they swap tubes, in my country we used to repair the stuff when there was no chance to get the right tubes you know.... so what is wrong with the frame???

[Neil]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7269/27553932681_a5bd154224_b.jpg

The seat tube has been replaced (when I first bought the frame) but the quality of the work wasn't perfect. The frame builder to whom I have given the frame says that to bring it back to perfect condition he'll need to replace seat stays, BB, seat tube, down tube.

That's obviously the perfectionist route - we have other options, essentially to replace fewer parts and simply wear it.

However, in the first instance I wanted to try to find all the parts, and then work backwards from there as it were.

[rwsaunders]

I think that Erik at Winter Bicycles has done some older Serotta steel frame repairs and refinishing.

[jemdet]

That's... quite an undertaking. BB shells and lugs can be custom made with a lugless shell and the proper ID pipe, but it isn't an easy operation. See here:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/bikes-of-the-bunch-llewellyn-custom-bicycles-lugged-colossus/

I've never dealt with them, but have heard that Reynolds is willing to make custom tubes in small batches (~10). Maybe someone would be interested in taking a few off of your hands.

This is a money pit, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

[Neil]

I think the key to this are the swaged tubes.

Funny story: I bought 5 Serotta swaged tubes, from a closing down sale of a UK frame builder (Roberts) and they are all the wrong size.

[FlashUNC]

Ship of Theseus, this is.

[Neil]

If I can get the parts it will be!

[Pegoready]

Ship of Theseus, this is.

Had to look that one up! Nice.

Are CSI's really that rare?

[David Kirk]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7269/27553932681_a5bd154224_b.jpg

The seat tube has been replaced (when I first bought the frame) but the quality of the work wasn't perfect. The frame builder to whom I have given the frame says that to bring it back to perfect condition he'll need to replace seat stays, BB, seat tube, down tube.

That's obviously the perfectionist route - we have other options, essentially to replace fewer parts and simply wear it.

However, in the first instance I wanted to try to find all the parts, and then work backwards from there as it were.

So....do I understand this correctly?.....you want to replace the s-stays, BB shell, seat tube and down tube? If my basic math is correct that will leave only the c-stays and toptube/head tube of the original frame. You'd be replacing the vast majority of the frame and reusing tubes that have already been heated at least twice. With all due respect this makes zero sense. You in effect be building a new frame using mostly new and a few questionable used parts. You'd be so much better off mounting this wonderful bike on the wall and having a new one made with all new stuff and zero compromise.

Just my two cents.

dave

[FlashUNC]

If I can get the parts it will be!

You're not looking for parts, you're looking for like 75% of a frame.

Time to get another frame built to the specs of this one, or just ride as-is.

[unterhausen]

I'm really curious how a bike needs a new bb shell and doesn't need new chain stays.

I know a lot of builders do repairs for less than they should, but this should definitely cost more than a new frame. And you should be able to find a similar frame and get it shipped to you for less.

[Neil]

This isn't going to make financial sense, I admit that 100%.

However, as a counterpoint, there are no Serotta CSi for sale on eBay (globally) at the present moment.

[David Kirk]

This isn't going to make financial sense, I admit that 100%.

However, as a counterpoint, there are no Serotta CSi for sale in Europe on eBay at the present moment.

I hear you - I'll bet that if you are willing to have one shipped from the USA that you'd open your market by a lot.

If you have a new frame built using a few used CSi tubes you will not end up with a CSi....I'm not sure what you'll have but it won't be a Serotta.

If you can find the all the tubes I'll bet that you can also find a BB shell and then you could have someone build you a replica and you could have a nice solid lifetime bike....but using a few tubes from an old Serotta to build a new bike is a bad idea.

dave

[Big Dan]

Have you tried a WTB right here?
What size is that frame?

[jemdet]

You'll be so far into a custom frame by the time this is done, just to end up with a re-re-brazed old frame. I mean, a frame from Hartley is 1690 GBP.

[GOTHBROOKS]

just let the man waste his money.

[weisan]

Neil pal, I think you have posted on the wrong thread., this should go on "the most desirable, lust-worthy bike if price is no object " thread.

If I may, I would just say one thing.

Finding another nice, used CSi and shipping over to the UK is not as hard as you might think. That's the route I would recommend.

Other than that, have Dave Kirk build you a bike, it will be the most ideal course of action.

[jtakeda]

🍿

[Neil]

If anyone has a 57cm CSi and would like to part with it please speak up.

[David Kirk]

If anyone has a 57cm CSi and would like to part with it please speak up.

The Serotta owners group on facebook is a great place to look FWIW.

dave

[ultraman6970]

Thats the reason I asked for pictures because I cant imagine damage so bad, or so bad made fixes that the frame pretty much needs to be replaced completely. OP do you have pictures of the problem areas? Just cant picture the problems unless you have HD, UHD... 4k and who knows what else with a D in it thing which brings you to have everything perfect, in that case well... u know :P

Those CSI in your size are available, just check ebay those always pop...



So....do I understand this correctly?.....you want to replace the s-stays, BB shell, seat tube and down tube? If my basic math is correct that will leave only the c-stays and toptube/head tube of the original frame. You'd be replacing the vast majority of the frame and reusing tubes that have already been heated at least twice. With all due respect this makes zero sense. You in effect be building a new frame using mostly new and a few questionable used parts. You'd be so much better off mounting this wonderful bike on the wall and having a new one made with all new stuff and zero compromise.

Just my two cents.

dave

[paredown]

If anyone has a 57cm CSi and would like to part with it please speak up.

I can't remember if it finally sold, but user GOMANGO had a lovely CSi in green that he had for sale for some time--and I think it was a 57. You could try sending him a PM?

[oliver1850]

Grady/gomango had 58 cm for sale unfortunately. He does have a white one that may be a 57. Pics on his flickr link.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2322089#post2322089

I'm not sure if azrider sold his 56 cm (same thread).

This 56 cm CRL is very nearly a CSI and dirt cheap at $150.

https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/bik/d/hialeah-serotta-colorado-crl/6974145047.html

This looks to be a late 90s CSI, approximately the right size:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/bik/d/smyrna-vintage-serotta-road-bike-dura/6987385274.html

[paredown]

Grady/gomango had 58 cm for sale unfortunately. He does have a white one that may be a 57. Pics on his flickr link.

....]

This looks to be a late 90s CSI, approximately the right size:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/bik/d/smyrna-vintage-serotta-road-bike-dura/6987385274.html

Thanks for confirmation--I couldn't find the original thread when he posted.

And that last one definitely looks bigger than a 54--I wish people could include more than one photo...

I do sympathize with the OP's original impulse too--I have my original bike that I raced--and it would cost more to restore it, than to buy a replacement that has retained it's original livery etc--and yet the desire to restore THE bike is hard to resist, even if it makes little sense economically--as if there were something that inheres in the original that would be lost by replacement...

[tuscanyswe]

Oh sorry to hear this Neil.
Esp after all this went through allrdy, is such a beautiful bike!

Hope you find something nice to replace it if you cant fix it.

[Matthew]

I don't have anything to offer besides the fact I love your passion for your Serotta. I have it too. I still kick myself for letting go a mint Atlanta in the classic red/yellow fade years ago. Man, that was dumb. Had a T-Max mtb I let go too. Onyx/magenta fade. Just gorgeous. Young and dumb I guess. Anyway, good luck in your search for tubes or a different one altogether. Sucks the original Serotta is no more.

[oliver1850]

Thanks for confirmation--I couldn't find the original thread when he posted.

And that last one definitely looks bigger than a 54--I wish people could include more than one photo...

I do sympathize with the OP's original impulse too--I have my original bike that I raced--and it would cost more to restore it, than to buy a replacement that has retained it's original livery etc--and yet the desire to restore THE bike is hard to resist, even if it makes little sense economically--as if there were something that inheres in the original that would be lost by replacement...

I didn't notice that the size was listed at all on the Atlanta craigslist posting. The Sizzler paint scheme shows in the 2000 catalog, so unless it's a repaint that's likely a CSI. Guess it could be an Atlanta but most Atlantas are solid colors. Serial number will tell both size and model.

Here's another that has plenty of photos but could be a CSI or something else. Again, serial number should tell all. Most likely a repaint but looks great.

https://eugene.craigslist.org/bik/d/eugene-near-mint-condition-mid-80s/6994744925.html

[Peter P.]

Was there really so little inventory left when Serotta closed, that there were no frame parts purchased in say, an auction or fire sale?

[peanutgallery]

If Serotta had inventory, the end would have been sooner. Call Dave Kirk a get a new bike, it's like buying a new binding for a 20 year old ski. That thing is knackered, done etc. Bronze it

Was there really so little inventory left when Serotta closed, that there were no frame parts purchased in say, an auction or fire sale?

[Peter B]

If Serotta had inventory, the end would have been sooner. Call Dave Kirk a get a new bike, it's like buying a new binding for a 20 year old ski. That thing is knackered, done etc. Bronze it

This^^^

Odds are reasonable that DK had a hand in the object of your current affection and he is more than well-suited to crafting a suitable replacement.

[nighthawk]

Didn’t this business end up with some of the closed shop inventory:

http://www.serottaparts.com/forks-tubes.html

No affiliation, just remember them posting on the forum at some point selling frames.

[dave thompson]

Didn’t this business end up with some of the closed shop inventory:

http://www.serottaparts.com/forks-tubes.html

No affiliation, just remember them posting on the forum at some point selling frames.

CoolPlanetBikes

[Black Dog]

I didn't notice that the size was listed at all on the Atlanta craigslist posting. The Sizzler paint scheme shows in the 2000 catalog, so unless it's a repaint that's likely a CSI. Guess it could be an Atlanta but most Atlantas are solid colors. Serial number will tell both size and model.

Here's another that has plenty of photos but could be a CSI or something else. Again, serial number should tell all. Most likely a repaint but looks great.

https://eugene.craigslist.org/bik/d/eugene-near-mint-condition-mid-80s/6994744925.html

The one listed is a Colorado II. The horizontal rear drop outs give it away. It is early 90's and has gone back to the factory to have rear brake routing made external. I have one with a simaler history. Also, to ID an Atlanta when looking for a CSI look at the seat tube lug, it will be cast and the set tube bolt goes though the cast lug.

[Big Dan]

New steel frames ride so good.
I wouldn't go back to my 90's bikes.

[Neil]

It's not that I don't have other, modern bikes - I do:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48618442912_31fa66c6cf_b.jpg

I just had a lot of fun on that CSi, and it was without doubt one of the most handsome bikes I have (or had).

I've got a Colorado CR that's in the server room of our Broomfield office that I'll have shipped back to me, and I'm also in discussions with a friend to buy his CSi - although interestingly it's got different tubes to mine.

Mine has a standard top tube, but swaged seat an downtubes. His has an oversize top tube, swaged seat tube, but a straight downtube.

[Black Dog]

It's not that I don't have other, modern bikes - I do:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48618442912_31fa66c6cf_b.jpg

I just had a lot of fun on that CSi, and it was without doubt one of the most handsome bikes I have (or had).

I've got a Colorado CR that's in the server room of our Broomfield office that I'll have shipped back to me, and I'm also in discussions with a friend to buy his CSi - although interestingly it's got different tubes to mine.

Mine has a standard top tube, but swaged seat an downtubes. His has an oversize top tube, swaged seat tube, but a straight downtube.

I do not think that this is possible. A straight downtime would have to be 35mm OD to fit in the BB shell; there was never a head tube lug that could accept a 35mm tube that Serotta had made or used.

By the way, the bike above is really nice! You found Waldo.

[Neil]

It's this one:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8738550563_280936b364_c.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=1463139

May well have measured wrong, I suppose.

[Neil]

^^ It has "Objectif Lune" on the stem, a small (notional) prize to the first person who can work out why.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48618275246_86e43ff386_b.jpg

[Black Dog]

It's this one:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8738550563_280936b364_c.jpg

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=1463139

May well have measured wrong, I suppose.

It is swagged but the difference is only a few mm. 32-35mm the seat tube is ~29-35mm and more noticeable.

[eddief]

it will be an aglomeration of stuff with CSI as part of the paint job...only. Get some Serotta decals made, order a new custom (without the swaged tubes perhaps) and get a painter to replicate the paint job. Don't tell anybody and pretend you did the right/smart thing. And if you stick with your plan, enjoy that too.

I sort of understand where you are coming from. My friend inherited a 1973 Mercury Comet V8 when her parents passed away. It is in nice condition but not pristine. She has spent $2500 on it to get it driveable and wants to sell it for $6000 but will only sell it to the "right" person who will care for it as her parents did. To me it's a crappy old American not very interesting car. To her it has remarkable sentimental value. I think you and she are in the same boat.

This isn't going to make financial sense, I admit that 100%.

However, as a counterpoint, there are no Serotta CSi for sale on eBay (globally) at the present moment.

[Neil]

My context, which is also car based - 70's 911's go for ~£100,000, and are often rebuilt from shells which largely vanish post-blasting.

There's a premium put on an original panel car, but no one denies that a restored 1973 911 is anything but a long-nose.

The view of posters on this thread is 100% that even if I rebuild the CSi with Serotta tubes then it's not a Serotta afterwards, which is interesting.

if I rebuild the frame part of the fun is sourcing NOS parts, and the goal is of course to end up with something which is indistinguishable from a NOS original frame.

I don't think that hobbies need to make financial sense - my other hobby has led to the creation of two 3.7 litre flat-six engines that rev past 8,250 rpm and produce 400 horsepower.

[Black Dog]

My context, which is also car based - 70's 911's go for ~£100,000, and are often rebuilt from shells which largely vanish post-blasting.

There's a premium put on an original panel car, but no one denies that a restored 1973 911 is anything but a long-nose.

The view of posters on this thread is 100% that even if I rebuild the CSi with Serotta tubes then it's not a Serotta afterwards, which is interesting.

if I rebuild the frame part of the fun is sourcing NOS parts, and the goal is of course to end up with something which is indistinguishable from a NOS original frame.

I don't think that hobbies need to make financial sense - my other hobby has led to the creation of two 3.7 litre flat-six engines that rev past 8,250 rpm and produce 400 horsepower.

Who cares if it is a "Serotta" after the work. If it rides the same as the original then mission accomplished. Focus on the ride and not the sentiment.

[happycampyer]

^^ It has "Objectif Lune" on the stem, a small (notional) prize to the first person who can work out why.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48618275246_86e43ff386_b.jpgThat is the title of a Tintin book:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-N7cLTmT/0/20e43b70/X2/i-N7cLTmT-X2.jpg

Personally, I understand where you are coming from. I have owned and ridden a lot of modern steel bikes and, personally, have never found one that I thought rode as well as my other bikes, so the ones I've owned I've sold (with one exception), and the ones I've ridden I never bought.

I had always wanted a neon fade Serotta, more for the paint job than for the ride quality. I had toyed with the idea of painting a ti or carbon Serotta in that paint scheme as an homage, but when a CSi in excellent condition and an odd paint scheme came up for sale here, I snapped it up. I finally had it repainted and built up, and when I took it on its first ride, I was blown away. It is by far the nicest riding steel bike I have ever ridden.

If it got to the point of needing tubes to be replaced, I wouldn't go through that expense, but I can understand your wanting to do so.

[Neil]

IIRC we duplicated the CSi geometry for this, which is the best handling bike I own:

https://live.staticflickr.com/855/42871138304_0b1ba9fc46_b.jpg

Pictured by the reservoir in Lanjaron when riding in Sierra Nevada a couple of years ago.

[Neil]

I have agreed a price for the yellow CSi pictured earlier, I'm going to continue to see if it's possible to find the tubes to rebuild a CSi but there's obviously no urgency.

The new CSi can go with my CX bike:

https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/843c7118388ec650897ef59bbba951fd460c0854.jpeg

[AngryScientist]

Neil - I for one think your original mission is a worthy project. There is something romantic about a sentimental attachment to a bike and keeping it rolling whether or not it makes financial sense. we all do plenty of stupid things with money when it comes to cycling gear, why not a complete rebuild and freshen up of an old friend.

i hope you will pursue this project and keep us posted.

i am confident that if you see it through to completion, you will not regret having done so.

[beeatnik]

just let the man waste his money.

Bout 9 years ago someone posted a PSA on LAFixed for a $300 Serotta in Ojai or Santa Barbara. Don't recall if it was an Atlanta or CSI. The seller was a friend of the original owner or bought the owner's house and found the bike in the garage. I had dibs on it but I got lazy and didn't feel like making the drive. But I did do my due diligence and found this groovy message board with all the Serotta catalogs and some deals in the classifieds. The cat who bought the bike found $40 in the saddle bag. Barn find!

You member who came up?

[jtbadge]

I have nothing constructive to add so instead I'll mention how rad that yellow Serotta cross bike is and that I would like to have it.

[Neil]

Well, I now have a yellow CSi that matches that cross bike, and the red frame has had the seat stays replaced and went for paint this morning.

[Neil]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200241552_f1d68f2b86_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200042761_c73ea740f2_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200240932_daba5e8263_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49199549413_fcf2f38be1_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200241097_c4fa079eb0_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200043011_2ae192d237_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49199549733_580c48fe76_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49200241392_10e898099b_b.jpg

[jtbadge]

Woah!!

[AngryScientist]

fantastic outcome!

who did the paint? looks great!

i applaud your project!

[Neil]

The old girl does look good, it's all the work of Bob at Colourburn:

https://www.colourburnstudio.com/

[GOTHBROOKS]

Bout 9 years ago someone posted a PSA on LAFixed for a $300 Serotta in Ojai or Santa Barbara. Don't recall if it was an Atlanta or CSI. The seller was a friend of the original owner or bought the owner's house and found the bike in the garage. I had dibs on it but I got lazy and didn't feel like making the drive. But I did do my due diligence and found this groovy message board with all the Serotta catalogs and some deals in the classifieds. The cat who bought the bike found $40 in the saddle bag. Barn find!

You member who came up?
victor got a 650c landshark in ojai for that price. i think the owner lived like 5 houses down from me at the time too. i had never seen it before.

[Clean39T]

That paint is so beautiful!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[cmg]

Wow, just Wow. That is a great paint job, so digging it.

[m_sasso]

Maybe someone else's idea however I do like Bob at Colourburn's work!

[oliver1850]

Frame looks great. I'm glad to see that you saved it.

[tuscanyswe]

Not bad, not bad at all :banana:

Congrats

[Neil]

Thanks all. Frustratingly I forgot to put the Silca in the box when i posted the frame to Rob, so that needs to go off to be painted to match, then I can start thinking about what I'm going to build this up with.

[Neil]

MOAR:

https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/69e1bd554941f9decc545a27e42aa53bc0b63c5f.jpeg

https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/c2ce6b85a67832b8d699f84459e16e40f665b7e8.jpeg

https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/792a97a018a575cdee268bf2d3fe115ecbba859d.jpeg

[tuscanyswe]

Beautiful!

So what are you going to build it up with? I think last time it was ultegra right?

Id go campy but thats hardly a surprise i guess..

[Neil]

Not sure tbh, I've got Campy on my Serotta CX bike and my other CSi.

TBH I was thinking DA and Zipp 202's.

[jtbadge]

Paint job came out awesome.

All-black build with DA FTW

[Neil]

I'm thinking of buying this Serotta seat post (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Serotta-Titanium-Carbon-Seatpost-Selle-Flight-Saddle/114576098350), could I get some guidance on what would be a fair price for it (without the saddle)?

Here's the bike as it stands at the moment - with Serotta titanium stem, but the post is a titanium Syncros one, which is nice but the Serotta ti/carbon post would be a precise match for the stem.

https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/5a99eab0ad63e8c0b1cfe4523d7ce2efad8a9826.png

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGPeivpFW9H/?igshid=1p12gbajo0fnu

[Neil]

Seat post seller won’t post internationally- would one of you chaps be willing to help me out?

[mhespenheide]

The two links in your post, above, only point towards pictures of your own bike. Where's the seatpost that you're looking for?

[Neil]

Ah, that’s embarrassing. One second.

[Neil]

This is the seat post, a Serotta carbon/ti inline unit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Serotta-Titanium-Carbon-Seatpost-Selle-Flight-Saddle/114576098350

[happycampyer]

Those seatposts have sold for around $150 in the classifieds in the past. If you do a search here (https://forums.thepaceline.net/search.php?searchid=5120355), you will find that members have had mixed experiences with the clamping mechanism. Some had problems with slipping, others not.

Personally, given the age of the seatpost and clamp design, I would look for a ti post with a modern clamping mechanism (e.g., Moots, Eriksen, Firefly, etc.). You can have the post bead blasted to match the finish on the Serotta stem. Just my $.02.

[Neil]

TBH the Syncros post is perfect from a function standpoint, and it's about the right period for the frame, I really liked the idea of having the properly matching finishing kit from Serotta.

Interesting that the posts usually go for $150, I was rebuffed at twice that!

[happycampyer]

Post a wtb add in the classifieds. At some point there’s bound to be someone who has one and is interested in selling. My search above doesn’t seem to work on my iPhone—in case it doesn’t work for you, it was for “serotta carbon seatpost.”

[paredown]

TBH the Syncros post is perfect from a function standpoint, and it's about the right period for the frame, I really liked the idea of having the properly matching finishing kit from Serotta.

Interesting that the posts usually go for $150, I was rebuffed at twice that!
My used CSi also came with the Syncros post--I wonder if that was an installed option on factory builds?

[sipmeister]

TBH the Syncros post is perfect from a function standpoint, and it's about the right period for the frame, I really liked the idea of having the properly matching finishing kit from Serotta.

Interesting that the posts usually go for $150, I was rebuffed at twice that!


$425 for a used post that is going on 20 years is outrageous. It also looks extremely short, like it may have been trimmed down at some point.

[Pegoready]

First of all, your Serotta is absolutely stunning... a top ten build for me for sure.

$450 for that old ass Serotta seatpost, even with a Flite saddle, is absolutely disgusting and borderline predatory, but hey, he got you thinking so he's doing something right.

I'd keep looking. When they pop up they're cheap because they're not that desireable. Personally, I think your bike deserves a nice modern post like an Enve no setback, or a Thomson if you're trying to keep things budget but American.