Printed titanium lug carbon bikes

[bicycletricycle]

I know of two printed ti lugs with carbon tubes bicycles brands. I like the look of them. I think they are a good way to build a fancy custom. I think repairs will be relatively cheap and easy. What do you guys think?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48859840182_1b542496aa.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hrzseC)Screen Shot 2019-10-07 at 10.46.42 AM (https://flic.kr/p/2hrzseC) by bicycletricycle666 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24583601@N08/), on Flickr
https://bastion-cycles.com
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48859840127_d0ee14253e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hrzsdF)Screen Shot 2019-10-07 at 10.50.22 AM (https://flic.kr/p/2hrzsdF) by bicycletricycle666 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/24583601@N08/), on Flickr
https://www.métier-vélo.com

[buddybikes]

comment: ugly and expensive

[Matthew]

I don't mind the top pic too much but the finish on the second one is a little rough. Make mine welded please.

[Clean39T]

I've seen a Bastion in person - they are beautiful.. The other one, not so much - IMHO and just judging the aesthetics....it may grow on my in person though. :confused:

[ultraman6970]

Looks like they have good ideas, the products look ok, they need some polishing but as it is I do not think is an ugly product.

For example that saddle top parts look awesome, but for that much money I do not think somebody will have their seatpost retrofitted with their stuff you know.

Always good to see new ideas....

[R3awak3n]

looks good from far but close up, that texture is nope for me.

edit - 2 different builders, I like the first one and I am never a big fan of the carbon/ti look (either it works and I love it or just looks wrong)

[prototoast]

I really dig this type of construction and have been tinkering with trying to build some frames this way myself. Right now, metal 3d printing is really expensive, and that shows in the price of the bikes, but 3d printing has come so far from when I graduated college 12 years ago that I wouldn't be surprised if in another 10 years, we're seeing bikes like this all over the place.

Current all-carbon frame construction is hugely labor intensive, and this would shift things to a more capital-intensive process, which is the way the world goes.

Once the costs come down a bit, I wouldn't be surprised if Trek or Specialized uses this type of process to bring custom geometry to the masses.

[KidWok]

The Bastion looks great. I think it's great that additive manufacturing continues to develop in custom bikes. Would be curious about whether this can lead to lower carbon footprint for bikes with respect to less material wasted and frames being more repairable. I recall that Calfee and Colnago were big on using ti with carbon fiber because their expansion rates due to heat were similar and would not break down epoxy joint over time. I think it would be cool to see printed lug clusters made like the D'Aluiso Smartweld with some swaged and butted ti tubing like Serotta and Merlin did. Would make for some really beautiful full ti framesets.

Tai

[sales guy]

Reynolds UK is also making a printed titanium dropout and lugset for some custom builders. And obviously Moots making their dropouts. More than a few are starting to offer 3D printed lugs or dropouts. We've been playing with it as well. It's not as expensive as people think. And you can do amazing things with the technology. The start-up cost is the issue.

[82Picchio]

Snip: Right now, metal 3d printing is really expensive, and that shows in the price of the bikes, but 3d printing has come so far from when I graduated college 12 years ago that I wouldn't be surprised if in another 10 years, we're seeing bikes like this all over the place.

Current all-carbon frame construction is hugely labor intensive, and this would shift things to a more capital-intensive process, which is the way the world goes.

What about 3D printing carbon lugs? Would that be cheaper than 3D printing titanium lungs?

[bicycletricycle]

It is not really possible yet, carbon gets its strength from have long continues strands. The layer based processes that all (as far as I know) current 3D printing technologies use don't allow for long continues strands. Every once and a while you hear some claims of carbon or fiber glass reinforced 3D printing but as far as I know it has been powderized material being added into the main print medium. It may provide some helpful properties but it is not carbon fiber as we know it.

Snip:

What about 3D printing carbon lugs? Would that be cheaper than 3D printing titanium lungs?

[bicycletricycle]

I've seen a Bastion in person - they are beautiful.. The other one, not so much - IMHO and just judging the aesthetics....it may grow on my in person though. :confused:

I would like to see one of the bastions in person.

[charliedid]

Interesting and pretty cool. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pdonk]

Blacksmith in Toronto has one in stock. It is pretty and the lugs are nicely finished. Blacksmith has also done a few with painted lugs.

Price is sky high but when you see see one you can see why.

[nmrt]

i would like to buy a bike from prova cycles. but he is only make 35 frames a year.

[zap]

How strong are printed ti lugs or dropouts vs conventional titanium bits made from tube stock or plate?

[CDollarsign]

I believe that 3d printed alloys when properly sintered post printing have similar mechanical properties as cast.

[Clean39T]

I would like to see one of the bastions in person.Careful, the one at the shop in Scottsdale is in our size.....

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[bicycletricycle]

I believe that 3d printed alloys when properly sintered post printing have similar mechanical properties as cast.

better than cast

[john903]

This past August I was at Above Category in Sasulito, Ca and they have a Prova on the floor. The craftsmenship was top notch and to me the Campy 12 speed looked better in person. I didn't know it was 3d printed until I talked to the shop person. I certainly don't understand how it works but it was a quite well done frame.

[jm714]

What is the advantage of 3D printed vs cast or CNC’d? And please excuse my ignorance.

[benb]

My guess is the 3D Printed structures will be more dependent on the skill of the engineer who designs them than anything else, at least for a while.

A lot of bike stuff seems very engineering lite, it works because most stuff gets done according to very well established rules & methodologies since a lot of bike tech is very old and traditional.

Eventually the recipes will be solid & the knowledge will spread through the industry, the printers will get better & cheaper, etc.. and this stuff will be great.

I think it could be even more beneficial for some other areas. 3D Printed pedals, cranks, derailleur bits, etc..

[prototoast]

What is the advantage of 3D printed vs cast or CNC’d? And please excuse my ignorance.

Cast lugs require molds, and so one would need a new mold for each custom geometry.

CNC creates a lot of waste. Think about how big a brick of titanium you'd need to start with to make the bottom bracket lug on a Bastion. It's also slow, when your final product has so much less material than you started with.

3d printing doesn't have that same level or material waste, and each new lug could be customized at no more cost than entering the new details into a computer. 3d printing also allows details to be made on the inside of objects. Hollow CNC'd parts (like many alloy crankarms) are made in two pieces and then bonded together. 3d printing can add complicated shapes (trusses, cable routing guides, etc ) to the inside.

[benb]

The programming has got to be expensive with 3D printing too.

You just have a different set of things to optimize for.

[bicycletricycle]

it is possible to make a model of a lug that is easily tuneable for different sizes without a huge amount of design time. But compared to Bike CAD it is always going to be much more time in front of the computer.

The programming has got to be expensive with 3D printing too.

You just have a different set of things to optimize for.

[prototoast]

The programming has got to be expensive with 3D printing too.

You just have a different set of things to optimize for.

It's more time up front, but once you get a design and do the programming, it can be about as much work as bikecad.

I'm an economist who dabbles in frame building, not an engineer, and the upshot of computer programming expenses is they scale really well. Once you have a design down, the marginal frame design takes almost no time.

[Dino Suegiù]

The top one looks OK, the bottom one looks very overdone, but what is the point of this printed-ti-lugs-bonded-to carbon-tubes process?
Does it save money and/or create a better frame?
What are the real advantages over lugged or tube-to-tube all-carbon or TIG all-titanium frames?
Is the only reason here aesthetic?

At least the Bruce Gordon one (not printed, OK) was incredible to look at even if a completely fetishized whole-bicycle approach (and I assume it also rode well?) but these are not that level and seem a fair amount of a lot ado about not very much.

https://redkiteprayer.com/2010/04/bruce-gordons-custom-ticarbon-bike/

https://rkp.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMG_09771-533x400.jpg

https://rkp.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMG_09781-533x400.jpg

I am curious as to the reasoning behind the ones posted here, beyond "because we can" (which is not an invalid reason but...).

[bicycletricycle]

To me the potential advantages are-
1. Tube to tube all carbon frames require a lot of labor to make.
2. Repairs of carbon frames usually are a mid tube patch rather than a fresh tube because it is difficult to cut apart the joints
3. If/when the cost of the printing comes down it could be cheaper than the alternatives (fabricated joints/all carbon)
4. Reduced flaws in the frame construction, it is possible to have dry areas in slip fits like this but at least this type of construction limits the types of flaws. assuming the tubes are made well but filament wound and/or roll wrapped tubes have much fewer construction flaws than monocoque frames.
5. Metal dropouts, head tubes and bottom brackets are better for long term reliability, especially for press fit applications.
6. Near infinite design flexibility.

The top one looks OK, the bottom one looks very overdone, but what is the point of this printed-ti-lugs-bonded-to carbon-tubes process?
Does it save money and/or create a better frame?
What are the real advantages over lugged or tube-to-tube all-carbon or TIG all-titanium frames?
Is the only reason here aesthetic?

At least the Bruce Gordon one (not printed, OK) was incredible to look at even if a completely fetishized whole-bicycle approach (and I assume it also rode well?) but these are not that level and seem a fair amount of a lot ado about not very much.

https://redkiteprayer.com/2010/04/bruce-gordons-custom-ticarbon-bike/

https://rkp.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMG_09771-533x400.jpg

https://rkp.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMG_09781-533x400.jpg

I am curious as to the reasoning behind the ones posted here, beyond "because we can" (which is not an invalid reason but...).

[jm714]

Cast lugs require molds, and so one would need a new mold for each custom geometry.

CNC creates a lot of waste. Think about how big a brick of titanium you'd need to start with to make the bottom bracket lug on a Bastion. It's also slow, when your final product has so much less material than you started with.

3d printing doesn't have that same level or material waste, and each new lug could be customized at no more cost than entering the new details into a computer. 3d printing also allows details to be made on the inside of objects. Hollow CNC'd parts (like many alloy crankarms) are made in two pieces and then bonded together. 3d printing can add complicated shapes (trusses, cable routing guides, etc ) to the inside.

Thank you for information. That makes it much clearer to me.

[Mikej]

I wonder what it costs. I saw Firefly now has 3D printed drop outs and chain stay yolk. Not really sure..

[NHAero]

What portion of those Prova frames are 3D printed?

[pdonk]

What portion of those Prova frames are 3D printed?
From their website:

"3D printed stainless steel seat lug and flat mount dropout"

[prototoast]

I wonder what it costs. I saw Firefly now has 3D printed drop outs and chain stay yolk. Not really sure..

I can't speak specifically to the cost structure of moots or Firefly, but for reference, Ti Cycles sells Reynolds 3d printed titanium dropouts for $395. https://www.ticycles.com/ticycletubes/dropout-reynolds-r3d-printed-titanium

That's about 3x what machined titanium dropouts cost from Paragon. https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/dr0086-titanium-rear-70-degree-flat-mount-no-eyelets-12-mm.html

[Mikej]

It appears they still need machining?

[Butch]

Sorry for the long post, but thought I would share my caffeine infused thoughts about this, I find it a cool technology.

I can add some perspective on DMLS manufacturing from developing the dropouts for the Moots bikes several years ago. The reason we moved toward the dropouts was when we were introduced to Shimano's Flat Mount system because as the bb drop and chainstay length changes, managing the brake mount orientation becomes very challenging if the dropout and the brake landings are not a single piece, always staying oriented the same. (If machined the parts would have taken 2 lbs of billet per pair to machine). As we saw it connecting tubing with welds is the most flexible and economic way to create a custom bike. Of course that is using titanium tubes not carbon.

Some of the hurdles builders face with "printed" parts are cost, resolution (finish quality) and precision. To give you an idea, the machines that are used to print the Moots parts cost in the area of $600,000 a piece and the 6/4 powder is expensive. When we started the development of those parts I was able to work with a company in the UK that wanted to get into "high value, low volume" parts for the bike industry. They had been doing medical and F1 parts in very small volumes. Unfortunately they produced the first 100 or so pairs of dropouts at an excellent price which in the end was too cheap for them to stay in business. When they bugged out we had to find another producer, which we did for 2x the price.

The cost versus time saved and consistency of product are the factors builders have to weigh, whether it is lugs or other parts. With printing, the manufacturer can call out the resolution, how many microns of powder is laid down with each lazer sinterized pass. The thinner the layer the better the part looks. Strength in these parts is not an issue, they generally test out to be above 95% the strength of billet.

In my experience with this type of production one of the challenges is the precision of the wire EDM work that takes place to remove the parts from the plate after the parts are printed and heat treated. Also the precision of the printed diameters for connecting tubes to printed parts is in theplus/minus 0.005" toerance. With critical dimensions, thru axle hole interface for instance, they need to be machined post printing to achieve the needed tolerance. Not sure about the internal diameters of the lugs in question.

IMO there will be great developments in this technology that will trickle into the bike world. Recently I signed an NDA in reference to a new technology that has the potential to lower costs significantly if all goes to plan. Unfortunately, because of cost of development, the bike biz isn't going to be able to foot the bill at the beginning of the technology, but we will see how things proceed.

[nmrt]

I think prova also had 3D printed dropped chainstay for accommodating larger width tires in their MTBs. I think the dropped stays looks the best out of all the ones that I have seen so far.

From their website:

"3D printed stainless steel seat lug and flat mount dropout"

[Dino Suegiù]

Sorry for the long post, but thought I would share my caffeine infused thoughts about this, I find it a cool technology.

I can add some perspective on DMLS manufacturing from developing the dropouts for the Moots bikes several years ago. The reason we moved toward the dropouts was when we were introduced to Shimano's Flat Mount system because as the bb drop and chainstay length changes, managing the brake mount orientation becomes very challenging if the dropout and the brake landings are not a single piece, always staying oriented the same. (If machined the parts would have taken 2 lbs of billet per pair to machine). As we saw it connecting tubing with welds is the most flexible and economic way to create a custom bike. Of course that is using titanium tubes not carbon.

Some of the hurdles builders face with "printed" parts are cost, resolution (finish quality) and precision. To give you an idea, the machines that are used to print the Moots parts cost in the area of $600,000 a piece and the 6/4 powder is expensive. When we started the development of those parts I was able to work with a company in the UK that wanted to get into "high value, low volume" parts for the bike industry. They had been doing medical and F1 parts in very small volumes. Unfortunately they produced the first 100 or so pairs of dropouts at an excellent price which in the end was too cheap for them to stay in business. When they bugged out we had to find another producer, which we did for 2x the price.

The cost versus time saved and consistency of product are the factors builders have to weigh, whether it is lugs or other parts. With printing, the manufacturer can call out the resolution, how many microns of powder is laid down with each lazer sinterized pass. The thinner the layer the better the part looks. Strength in these parts is not an issue, they generally test out to be above 95% the strength of billet.

In my experience with this type of production one of the challenges is the precision of the wire EDM work that takes place to remove the parts from the plate after the parts are printed and heat treated. Also the precision of the printed diameters for connecting tubes to printed parts is in the plus/minus 0.005" tolerance. With critical dimensions, thru axle hole interface for instance, they need to be machined post printing to achieve the needed tolerance. Not sure about the internal diameters of the lugs in question.

IMO there will be great developments in this technology that will trickle into the bike world. Recently I signed an NDA in reference to a new technology that has the potential to lower costs significantly if all goes to plan. Unfortunately, because of cost of development, the bike biz isn't going to be able to foot the bill at the beginning of the technology, but we will see how things proceed.

Fantastic, very informative reply. Thank you.

I recall reading an article years ago about a 3-D milling / printed-composites expert company in Germany whose main products ranged from tiny dental tools to some parts (iirc floorboard pieces maybe) for Mercedes Benz to occasionally even complex and large building components. The owner said something like, "We can be equally precise at all scales. Our only limitation is the size of the fabrication area itself." Some of the work was amazing.

[zap]

Butch, thank you for your post.

[bicycletricycle]

I think I saw a pic of a bastion build tray getting band sawed off of the build plinth :)

Sorry for the long post, but thought I would share my caffeine infused thoughts about this, I find it a cool technology.

I can add some perspective on DMLS manufacturing from developing the dropouts for the Moots bikes several years ago. The reason we moved toward the dropouts was when we were introduced to Shimano's Flat Mount system because as the bb drop and chainstay length changes, managing the brake mount orientation becomes very challenging if the dropout and the brake landings are not a single piece, always staying oriented the same. (If machined the parts would have taken 2 lbs of billet per pair to machine). As we saw it connecting tubing with welds is the most flexible and economic way to create a custom bike. Of course that is using titanium tubes not carbon.

Some of the hurdles builders face with "printed" parts are cost, resolution (finish quality) and precision. To give you an idea, the machines that are used to print the Moots parts cost in the area of $600,000 a piece and the 6/4 powder is expensive. When we started the development of those parts I was able to work with a company in the UK that wanted to get into "high value, low volume" parts for the bike industry. They had been doing medical and F1 parts in very small volumes. Unfortunately they produced the first 100 or so pairs of dropouts at an excellent price which in the end was too cheap for them to stay in business. When they bugged out we had to find another producer, which we did for 2x the price.

The cost versus time saved and consistency of product are the factors builders have to weigh, whether it is lugs or other parts. With printing, the manufacturer can call out the resolution, how many microns of powder is laid down with each lazer sinterized pass. The thinner the layer the better the part looks. Strength in these parts is not an issue, they generally test out to be above 95% the strength of billet.

In my experience with this type of production one of the challenges is the precision of the wire EDM work that takes place to remove the parts from the plate after the parts are printed and heat treated. Also the precision of the printed diameters for connecting tubes to printed parts is in theplus/minus 0.005" toerance. With critical dimensions, thru axle hole interface for instance, they need to be machined post printing to achieve the needed tolerance. Not sure about the internal diameters of the lugs in question.

IMO there will be great developments in this technology that will trickle into the bike world. Recently I signed an NDA in reference to a new technology that has the potential to lower costs significantly if all goes to plan. Unfortunately, because of cost of development, the bike biz isn't going to be able to foot the bill at the beginning of the technology, but we will see how things proceed.