How W I D E are you?

[scottcw2]

Tires, that is.

Having read Jan Heine's post on wider tires - https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/how-wide-a-tire-should-i-ride/ - this part caught my attention:

"To me, tires narrower than 38 mm don’t really make sense any longer. 38 mm tires still give you the “connected to the pavement” sensation that makes a racing bike feel so fast. Below 38 mm, all you gain is harshness. The bike doesn’t feel any better, just more jiggly."

I am interested in more than just one Jan's opinion on this from real world riding. At what point do you find that sweet spot where any narrower is too harsh - 25? 28? 32? is Jan right at 38?

Thanks for the insights.

[simonov]

On 700c wheels, I find anything over 32 to be sluggish and tractor like. For fast road riding, I still think 25 is the sweet spot and 28-30 for crappy roads without losing too much of that nimble feeling. When I wear out my last set of 38s, I'll never go that big on 700c wheels again.

[AngryScientist]

i completely disagree with Jan on this one.

for my perception, 38mm is WAY too big for the road. i tried a set of the 38c compass tires for a while, and didnt like them at all. felt too sluggish to me, and worse, turning and handling felt imprecise and almost dangerous.

25c on the road is perfect for me.

[MattTuck]

I am interested in more than just one Jan's opinion on this from real world riding.

I see what you did there :)

I find 32s are the best combo for the real riding that I do (or lately, that I'd do if I had time). Sure, can have dreams about crazy days of dirt roads and lust for something bigger. But combo of dirt and crappy new england pavement, and being a 200+ pound guy, 32s seem to make the fewest compromises on comfort and performance.

[R3awak3n]

I go by feel and I much prefer 28-32 on the road... Anything larger starts feeling sluggish. Now, maybe its not, maybe its as fast, ect ect but I am the only ridding the bike and I like the feel of a skinner tire on the road. Mix pavement is another story... 35-38mm is great. Gravel bike has 650x47mm but they are usually too much for the gravel round these parts. Surprisingly roll nicely on the pavement but I would rather be on my road bike.

[prototoast]

This probably depends a lot on rider weight. I'm about 185 and usually go for 28 tires on the road. 25 ROK, but feel harsher without feeling any faster. I've used 38 tires for road riding, and they're not terrible, but definitely feel a little sluggish if I want to go fast. Though I should caveat that the bike that fits 38 mm tires has longer chainstays and greater trail, so it's not a complete apples-to-apples comparison, though there are necessarily some geometry accommodations that must be made to fit larger tires, so such a direct comparison may not even be possible.

[Clean39T]

On 700c wheels, I find anything over 32 to be sluggish and tractor like. For fast road riding, I still think 25 is the sweet spot and 28-30 for crappy roads without losing too much of that nimble feeling. When I wear out my last set of 38s, I'll never go that big on 700c wheels again.Agreed.

Undamped suspension may work for light riders who sit and spin, but not for those of us with tree-trunk legs and big feet, who mash the pedals and spend time out of the saddle..

38s catch a lot of wind too.

Gravel roads though, 35-42mm is purrrfect.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[benb]

Yah I also disagree with Jan here.

Depends on the bike a lot too.

I have 26c tires on my Domane, that bike soaks up a ridiculous amount of shock and vibration, even getting into 28c seems overkill on that bike.

My Space Horse I've tried everything from 23c-25c (just swapped wheels on and tried a ride or two) along to 28c, 32c, 35c, 38c. That bike is really harsh with smaller tires and it's geometry is not suited to them. It came with 35c and is really designed for bigger tires and the uses cases where bigger tires work best. But even there 38c is WAY too big for cases where the bike is mostly used on pavement. Right now I have 32c tires on it (Panaracer) and that really seems to be the sweet spot. 28c kind of sucks if you go down easy dirt trails. Not enough float if you hit loose sand. 32c you can just barely get by when you hit looser stuff. But the 32c tires still roll fast and feel good on the road. 38c definitely feels like a tractor when you get on pavement, that's a great description IMO. I feel like 38c I'm giving up a ton of speed if I'm pavement. 38c is completely transformative & massively superior once you get onto dirt though. 28c you might walk in the loose sections. 32c you gotta go slow & be careful but I won't walk. 38c I can hammer through and just have to be a bit more careful braking/cornering than I would on a mountain bike.

I would say I need to try a really good 35c tire though.. the 35c tires that bike came from were absolutely horrible. A 35c in the Panaracer or Compass/Herse might not feel like a tractor like the 38s. I feel like getting right at the sweet spot on that bike is really worth it as it makes the bike the most fun when you feel like you can hit widest array of pavement & dirt and enjoy it all.

I will say I did a flattish century on 38c tires once. They sure felt like a drag.

[R3awak3n]

Agreed.

Undamped suspension may work for light riders who sit and spin, but not for those of us with tree-trunk legs and big feet, who mash the pedals and spend time out of the saddle..

38s catch a lot of wind too.

Gravel roads though, 35-42mm is purrrfect.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

and are also heavier than 28s which gotta count for something

[cmb5286]

I'm in the 32c camp for rough road rides. 38-42 for gravel rides.

[unterhausen]

I am riding 32mm because the roads in Pennsylvania suck. I went from 25 to 28 and then up to 32. The 28's I bought were exactly the same size as the 25's they replaced, thanks to Bontrager quality control. And then the bead let go. At least with 32's, I have a fighting chance of making it through the potholes without getting a pinch flat.

I was wondering if 28's might not work better in France, there was only one road in the 1000k of PBP that I rode that made me wish for wider tires. I might get some 28mm tires in 2023. OTOH, I rode a number of brevets this year on 40mm tires and they felt fine to me. Sure, they feel a little sluggish for the first initial burst of an acceleration. The 40mm tires replaced some crummy 38mm tires, which also rode fine.

[yinzerniner]

Having ridden a bunch on light, slick 35s on paved roads my assessment mirrors a lot of the previous posters' opinions. While the gain in comfort is noticeable the additional rolling and wind resistance, turning and cornering vagueness and the decreased acceleration make them less than ideal for tarmac.

For a heavy dude (195-210 riding weight depending on season) 28-32 is the sweet spot. Tubular would be ideal but they're simply not as practical as tubeless. Very excited about the possibility of "tubeless tubular" tires, although Challenge has a lot of construction deficiencies to work out before I'd ever try them.
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/challenges-tubeless-tan-wall-tyres/

[FlashUNC]

25-30 really, and that's with awful East Bay roads.

Anymore tire than that just feels needless for sticking to pavement.

[XXtwindad]

Up to a point, I'm inclined to agree with JH. 38c seems too wide.

I ride 35c tires (G One Speeds) on the some of the same East Bay roads as the OP (and Flash) and I like the "bump mitigation" factor. I might go down to a 32 or a 30, but probably not less than that.

What really intrigues me though, is JH's evangelical belief in "wider is better." He helped usher in that movement (along with HED) and deserves credit for altering people's misconceptions. He's also been on record as advocating for alternative subcompact gearing (I think he mentioned a 26/42 combo he favored for climbing), all of which is for the better, IMO.

But it's as if he doesn't have some rubber in the game:

Quote: "That doesn’t mean you can just slap any wide tires on your bike and expect it to go fast. What will change your speed is how supple your tires are: Tires with high-performance casings are faster, more comfortable and offer better traction, regardless of their width. If you choose heavy, reinforced ‘touring’ models when you switch to wider tires, you’ll likely to be disappointed – they’ll roll slower than racing tires because of their sturdy casings, not because of the extra width.

"So we know that supple casings are key, and that width doesn’t matter. What size tires should we run then? Is wider always better? And what about wheel size?"

Translation: to get the benefit of wider tires, you need to purchase Rene Hearse tires.

[rowebr]

I used to ride long distance, brevets and other all day adventure rides. For those rides I used 650Bx38mm Compass tires and they were great.

Now my road riding is pretty much all fast group rides, nothing longer than 2 hours or so. In retrospect, all the long distance riding I did in the past was pretty much at "just riding along" pace. For going fast, accelerating, feeling the road in corners, a 25mm or 28mm 700c racing clincher is perfect for me.

The big 38mm tires feel like they don't accelerate as well, and when riding them at a cushy pressure they are too squishy in fast cornering. I do think the Compass 38mm tires roll about equally well once I get them up to speed as the 25mm GP4000.

[icepick_trotsky]

Preach.

I ride 25s almost all of the time. Wider tires, even on bad roads, strike me as sluggish.

I've happily ridden 23s on mild gravel and smiled the whole way.

[Mzilliox]

i completely disagree with Jan on this one.

for my perception, 38mm is WAY too big for the road. i tried a set of the 38c compass tires for a while, and didnt like them at all. felt too sluggish to me, and worse, turning and handling felt imprecise and almost dangerous.

25c on the road is perfect for me.

this and this and this. Jan is selling fat tires.
Jan rides different to me ive decided. we ride similar rides, but he is a different animal. 650b low trail was a failed experiment for me.

38s are too wide even for most gravel for me.

there is no road ride where a 38mm tire is better than a 28mm tire.

[scottcw2]

So it seems consensus is 28-32 for road riding. This confirms my experience. I like 28s a lot, 32s start to feel a bit sluggish. I can only imagine using 38 for mostly gravel or single track. Maybe 650x42 if I was really expecting some poor conditions.

[David Kirk]

I'm also in the 28-32 camp. 28's on paved roads and 32's for mixed surfaces. Bigger seems floppy and imprecise to me and smaller feels harsh and fragile.

dave

[Black Dog]

I'm also in the 28-32 camp. 28's on paved roads and 32's for mixed surfaces. Bigger seems floppy and imprecise to me and smaller feels harsh and fragile.

dave

This.

[livingminimal]

I dont really care about going fast, so 38mm are pretty nice/fun/sufficient/cool/whatever on the road.

[93KgBike]

25-30 really, and that's with awful East Bay roads.

Anymore tire than that just feels needless for sticking to pavement.

I used to ride San Leandro - Emeryville - San Leandro as-the-crow-flies on 25's and they were fine. But when I switched onto 35r/32f my commute times dropped.

Dropbar mtb's are pretty old-school, actually.

[Big Dan]

Fat 28's is where I'm at.
Something measuring 28-30 on the road.

[bigbill]

I've got some 32's set up tubeless on a set of Altamonts, very nice ride and I don't feel like I'm giving anything up. When I travel, I like to take my Dirt Road Racer and two sets of wheels, the Altamonts for pavement, and the WTB/WI wheels with 38 GK's. Pretty much covers everything short of technical singletrack.

[Clean39T]

I'm also in the 28-32 camp. 28's on paved roads and 32's for mixed surfaces. Bigger seems floppy and imprecise to me and smaller feels harsh and fragile.

dave

Agree, for 700c..

What's your experience been with 650b on your disc rig? Or is that a different animal entirely?

[merckxman]

No one riding 19s anymore? Those were harsh.

[mhespenheide]

6'4", #185-190. A lot of bad roads around here. I like a true measured width of 30-32mm.

If I could ever be assured of roads in good condition, I'd probably drop down slightly to a true measured width of 25-28mm. But thats not likely to happen, so I'll happily take the small aero and weight penalties to go a little wider.

[mhespenheide]

No one riding 19s anymore? Those were harsh.

In the late 80's and early 90's in New York's Dutchess County (Hudson River Valley), with good roads and only weighing ~150#, Michelin SuperCompe HD 20's were all I needed. Not the same conditions for roads or my weight anymore, though!

[Alaska Mike]

I ride mostly 25c tires on 23mm or 25mm rims. Any more won't fit in my current frames, which lean more towards road racing and have rim brakes. I have had several bikes with disc brakes that could accept larger tires, but never really liked the way tires bigger than 28c performed on pavement. Our roads are fairly rough up here (potholes, cracks, frost heaves...), yet I rarely want a wider tire than I already run.

I'm not against the trend towards wider footprints, but at a certain point the trade-offs just don't add up for me. YMMV.

[benb]

Actually I wonder how many of us use his tire pressure calculations/guidelines? I think some of his observations might make more sense if you're setting up the tires the same way he is.

I think that has a big effect with these wide tires.

I am a very strict adherent to hist tire pressure ideas.

I set up for 41% weight on the front and 59% weight on the back. That is a pretty big variation in pressure.

E.x. I said I have 26s and 32s on my two bikes respectively. Based on 41/59 I run these pressures, and I'm about 175lbs.

26c: 62psi front, 88psi rear
32c: 45psi front, 65psi rear

It works really well. Get the weight distribution right and you're running lower pressures without anything getting squishy or sloppy. It's seem absolutely nuts to me at this point to think I used to run equal pressure front & rear. That almost always leads to a really harsh ride on the front of the bike and a squishy rear tire.

[Clean39T]

Actually I wonder how many of us use his tire pressure calculations/guidelines? I think some of his observations might make more sense if you're setting up the tires the same way he is.

I think that has a big effect with these wide tires.

I am a very strict adherent to hist tire pressure ideas.

I set up for 41% weight on the front and 59% weight on the back. That is a pretty big variation in pressure.

E.x. I said I have 26s and 32s on my two bikes respectively. Based on 41/59 I run these pressures, and I'm about 175lbs.

26c: 62psi front, 88psi rear
32c: 45psi front, 65psi rear

It works really well. Get the weight distribution right and you're running lower pressures without anything getting squishy or sloppy. It's seem absolutely nuts to me at this point to think I used to run equal pressure front & rear. That almost always leads to a really harsh ride on the front of the bike and a squishy rear tire.

Weight distribution is dynamic though - so you're only getting it "right" when riding in a straight line on flat ground and not braking or accelerating....no?

[prototoast]

Weight distribution is dynamic though - so you're only getting it "right" when riding in a straight line on flat ground and not braking or accelerating....no?

Any tire pressure scheme would be generally subject to this critique.

[veggieburger]

700x23 on the road, same width for the last 15 years.

[benb]

Weight distribution is dynamic though - so you're only getting it "right" when riding in a straight line on flat ground and not braking or accelerating....no?

It's pretty much wrong all the time if you stick with the time honored 50/50 distribution.

Once you get your particular distribution right IME you don't notice a squishy front tire when riding uphill, etc..

I think a lot of the time weight distribution shifting is probably overplayed. Pretty much no one can pull a wheelie at full speed on a road bike or even really shift the weight back. We spend an extremely small amount of time under really hard braking forces. The tires don't have much room to squish down to shift weight and we don't have suspension. Maybe under a full spring you put out enough power to shift weight back.. but we all get out of the saddle and transfer weight forward. I bet a lot of time we move our bodies around in ways that keep the distribution pretty even.

It's nothing like a motorcycle where the front suspension will squat down multiple inches under hard braking very frequently and the motor has enough power to lift the front wheel under hard acceleration up to really high speeds. (And motorcycles have really wildly different weight distribution compared to bicycles anyway cause the motor shifts the weight forward greatly.)

[Clean39T]

It's pretty much wrong all the time if you stick with the time honored 50/50 distribution.

Once you get your particular distribution right IME you don't notice a squishy front tire when riding uphill, etc..

I think a lot of the time weight distribution shifting is probably overplayed. Pretty much no one can pull a wheelie at full speed on a road bike or even really shift the weight back. We spend an extremely small amount of time under really hard braking forces. The tires don't have much room to squish down to shift weight and we don't have suspension. Maybe under a full spring you put out enough power to shift weight back.. but we all get out of the saddle and transfer weight forward. I bet a lot of time we move our bodies around in ways that keep the distribution pretty even.

It's nothing like a motorcycle where the front suspension will squat down multiple inches under hard braking very frequently and the motor has enough power to lift the front wheel under hard acceleration up to really high speeds. (And motorcycles have really wildly different weight distribution compared to bicycles anyway cause the motor shifts the weight forward greatly.)

True. Sorry for the red herring.

When I most notice the squish of too-soft tires is downhill cornering and hoofing up steep hills out of the saddle --- and when I most notice too-hard tires is riding in a straight line over rougher surfaces.

Gotta a pick a middle-ground I guess and live with it :)

[Duende]

38’s gravel - my frame won’t fit any bigger tires, but I’ve no complaints. Gets me through the rocky stuff... have yet to encounter any issues. Traction is solid.

25’s road - remarkably better than 23’s for my weight. Trying out some 28’s soon here though. We shall see.

[brewsmith]

i completely disagree with Jan on this one.

for my perception, 38mm is WAY too big for the road. i tried a set of the 38c compass tires for a while, and didnt like them at all. felt too sluggish to me, and worse, turning and handling felt imprecise and almost dangerous.

25c on the road is perfect for me.

Totally agree. I had some 38c Compass tires on the Hampsten for one ride and it was miserable, they felt heavy and sluggish even at higher pressures. To 30c Stada Biancas changed the ride 100% for the better

[DarkStar]

On 700c wheels, I find anything over 32 to be sluggish and tractor like. For fast road riding, I still think 25 is the sweet spot and 28-30 for crappy roads without losing too much of that nimble feeling. When I wear out my last set of 38s, I'll never go that big on 700c wheels again.
Totally agree.:banana:

[benb]

True. Sorry for the red herring.

When I most notice the squish of too-soft tires is downhill cornering and hoofing up steep hills out of the saddle --- and when I most notice too-hard tires is riding in a straight line over rougher surfaces.

Gotta a pick a middle-ground I guess and live with it :)

I went through a period where I started experimenting with lower pressures and if you're working on guesswork I think getting one tire wrong can make you think the other tire is wrong and then you're chasing your tail.

Jan's graph based on 15% drop is a really useful starting point. I think most of us will have a little fudge factor up or down based on preference and tire selection and such but the basic idea of calculating based on load on each tire is really sound.

For me the last step was increasing the rear tire pressure.. I was generally running it too low cause I was reluctant to go all the way to a 60% rear/40% front setup. It does seem really extreme when you start trying his recommendations. But often when the rear was too low for some reason it was tricking me and making me think something was wrong with the front.

[scottcw2]

How does that calculation vary based on rider weight?

[Hellgate]

Corsas in a 23 at 95 & 100 psi. I'm 156 these days. The roads I ride are in very good condition.

[benb]

It's based on this:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BQTireDrop.pdf

I have a spreadsheet I made that adds lines for additional tire sizes & provides a worksheet for you to calculate it based on your inputs. (Put in your weight, weight of bike, weight distribution, etc..)

I have shared the spreadsheet here before. I can try to do so again when I have access to it.

For me most of the fiddling had to do with the issue that it's not that easy to get a real measure of weight distribution. You can supposedly do it with 2 identical scales but I don't have that. I have also been for bike fittings where the high end fit bikes will measure it for you as the fit changes.. that's a good way to get an accurate # but it ignores the weight distribution of your actual bike, your tools, water, etc..

[merckx]

I am also in the 28-30 for road riding camp. I prefer fat tubs like the Vlaanderens and 30mm Corsa Controls. They still feel zippy, but have the cushy of a 35mm supple clincher like a Bon Jon.

[sparky33]

Some bikes&wheels feel zippy with 38s, some don't. It's the whole bike that feels good or not. Tires are one part of system.

[Hilltopperny]

Depends on the bike. My Drifter is running 35mm and they perform well on and off road. I ran 32s on my recently sold MRB and that performed exceptionally well with that setup.
My Great Divide sits on belgium+ with 28s and is my go to road bike. The Ottrott is on 25mm tires and still rides extremely well planted and comfortable and has room for 28s, but I just haven't felt a need for them.




Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

[MarinRider]

I am still riding a 25 because that is the max for a Pegoretti steel fork and record brake. It's sublime.

[fa63]

Just bought some 700x38c Panaracer Gravelking slicks, and mounted them on tonight. Curious to go for a ride tomorrow morning and find out how they feel on the road (I use 25c front / 28c rear on my normal road bike).

[Gummee]

I usually run 32c GP4Seasons on my 'road' CX bike. 60ish PSI feels great

Then I stuck some 25c tires on that same wheelset and felt like I was flying.

Dunno if it was perception or I really was going faster, but hey! it felt good.

I just got to thinking tho... What's old is new again. 27 x 1 1/4" is what? About 32c

M

[simonov]

I usually run 32c GP4Seasons on my 'road' CX bike. 60ish PSI feels great

Then I stuck some 25c tires on that same wheelset and felt like I was flying.

Dunno if it was perception or I really was going faster, but hey! it felt good.

I just got to thinking tho... What's old is new again. 27 x 1 1/4" is what? About 32c

M

What tires were the 25s? GP4Seasons are a pretty solid all around tire with a nod to durability, but most any "race" tire will feel like free speed by comparison.

[dogrange]

I have a Dogma F8 with 25mm tubulars and an Open UP with 650x48 Rene here’s xtralight. I have ridden both on my fastest local group ride. The Open is almost as easy to ride as fast at my limit as the dogma and is way more compliant in the bumps. I am not even convinced that the dogma has the edge because of the lighter tires.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David Kirk]

Agree, for 700c..

What's your experience been with 650b on your disc rig? Or is that a different animal entirely?

I don't own a 650 bike - both of mine are 700c.

dave

[weisan]

For road application, between 27-29 is the sweet spot for me. Pairing Vittoria CG Pave 27 with a wide rim like Pacenti SL23 gets me there. I am sticking to this winning formula, just got a fresh supply of Paves, will last me a while.

For gravel, it depends on what my goal is.

To stay agile, I will go 35.

To just ride with complete abandonment, not even watching where I am going - I will do 650bx47.

[ultraman6970]

If this thread had to answer the question how L O N G are we, we could expect one of two things...

1 - the thread could have like 20 pages already of funny stuff

2 - or maybe just 1 page because nobody wants to answer the truth :p

[skiezo]

I have 3 road bikes and one is on 25 clinchers and the other 2 are on 25f/27r tubies. My roads are not that bad and these do me just swell. On my Ti Desalvo I do have a wheelset that has some 23 on old DT Mon Chasseral wheels and they are just fine on my roads as well.
But my road bike are limited to tire size. I am in the process of building a steel bike with clearance for 30 or 32 so will give them a try in a few weeks.

[oldpotatoe]

25mm on my Merckx and 27mm on my Moots. Both at 85psi....works well for any place I ride. I tried 28mm once on the Moots(have room) and the ride was horrible. I think there is something about this ‘fatter is better’ trend but I think it’s coupled with the whole GRoad gig. I think some just assume ya gotta have a fat tire for their rides, even if sometimes they really don’t. Meaning they do their thing with those 38mm and assume that’s what it’s supposed to be without trying something smaller, thinner and discovering those work too.
YMMV and all that.

[JAGI410]

I dont really care about going fast, so 38mm are pretty nice/fun/sufficient/cool/whatever on the road.

Same here. I really like my Compass 38s. They roll plenty fast for my needs and I appreciate the extra cushion. I swap between these and Rock n Roads on the same bike, so the difference in performance between the two might influence my choice a bit.

[fa63]

I just came back from a short ride with my new 38c Gravelking slicks. Some impressions:

- They seemed to roll well at 45 psi front / 55 psi rear; didn't really feel like they were slowing me down on the flats or going uphill.
- They didn't feel soft or squirmy.
- The handling was different for sure; wheel flop was more pronounced. If you are constantly switching between bikes with small tires vs. larger ones, I can see how this could be annoying. Otherwise, I imagine it will be fine once you are adjusted to the new handling characteristics.
- They were super comfortable (expected).
- They look pretty cool :)


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190921/ce9136150c788916fd8482374b76cd14.jpg

[Clean39T]

I don't own a 650 bike - both of mine are 700c.



daveSorry, thought you had 650b on your fillet Onesto graveler.. Now I see it's wider 700c on there.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[XXtwindad]

If this thread had to answer the question how L O N G are we, we could expect one of two things...

1 - the thread could have like 20 pages already of funny stuff

2 - or maybe just 1 page because nobody wants to answer the truth :p

Haha. The thought had occurred to me.

[dddd]

I rode for some years on Miyata touring bikes having 1-1/4" tires that measured all of 30mm wide on a good day.
I ran about 60psi and rode even the rockiest fire roads up and over Mt Tam on many occasions, as well as hundreds of trips through the MTB trails of the Auburn State Recreation area.
All this before "Gravel" was a word in bicycle vocabulary.

On the road, I probably would have preferred narrower 1-1/8" tires, and off road I would have liked 38mm tires, but overall I thought that the actual 30mm tires were great year round.

My climbing traction with ~45cm chainstays was aided by the weight of a rack and rack trunk. The steep climbing became challenging with each change of the season from wet to bone-dry.
I don't recall ever pinch-flatting other than when I found evidence that a thorn puncture had first caused a slow, imperceptible loss of pressure (though I did gore a couple of rear tires).

I've had a few of these and other brand's (Nishiki, Univega, Novara) similar inexpensive touring bikes, and each provided great skills/fitness training platforms for each year's CX season by reducing my need to dismount in technical sections during races. I broke a few freewheel axles, but the bikes held up perfectly other than that. I try to retire any inexpensive touring bike after 2-3 years of such use (donated a couple to Trips4Kids).

https://live.staticflickr.com/2410/1870224077_8dd3790802_c.jpg

[dddd]

I dont really care about going fast, so 38mm are pretty nice/fun/sufficient/cool/whatever on the road.

This year I installed actual 34mm Allroad tubeless tires on one of my old 'cross bikes, and have by now done a lot of road riding on it.
While I can for the most part keep up with the faster riders in the group with this setup, I sense that it is a slower bike than my Trek Koppenberg or my Argon18 Gallium Pro with their lighter weight and 23mm tires.

But it's a good bike overall that is of course more forgiving of irregular road surface conditions and that can handle any on or off-road situation, and with nary a puncture.

[weaponsgrade]

I've got a set EL Barlow Passes on my gravel bike. I am impressed by how well they do on the road. Still, for a pure road ride, I'm on 700x25s (which actually measure 28mm wide).

[Clean39T]

I went through a period where I started experimenting with lower pressures and if you're working on guesswork I think getting one tire wrong can make you think the other tire is wrong and then you're chasing your tail.

Jan's graph based on 15% drop is a really useful starting point. I think most of us will have a little fudge factor up or down based on preference and tire selection and such but the basic idea of calculating based on load on each tire is really sound.

For me the last step was increasing the rear tire pressure.. I was generally running it too low cause I was reluctant to go all the way to a 60% rear/40% front setup. It does seem really extreme when you start trying his recommendations. But often when the rear was too low for some reason it was tricking me and making me think something was wrong with the front.I checked my pressures post-ride today, and I was just under 50psi up front, probably 55psi in the rear..... 28c Panaracer Gravel A tires on Easton EA90SL 25mm rims. I'm around 185-190lbs right now. It felt perfect on the road, not squishy, not harsh.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[enr1co]

I just came back from a short ride with my new 38c Gravelking slicks. Some impressions:

- They seemed to roll well at 45 psi front / 55 psi rear; didn't really feel like they were slowing me down on the flats or going uphill.
- They didn't feel soft or squirmy.
- The handling was different for sure; wheel flop was more pronounced. If you are constantly switching between bikes with small tires vs. larger ones, I can see how this could be annoying. Otherwise, I imagine it will be fine once you are adjusted to the new handling characteristics.
- They were super comfortable (expected).
- They look pretty cool :)


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190921/ce9136150c788916fd8482374b76cd14.jpg

Also trying out 38 Gravelking slicks. Pump them up to 65-70 psi (max is 75 w/ std tubes) when I know my ride will be primarily road. Pretty firm, non squirmy and comfortable with the higher sidewalls. Should I go off on a firetrail, will drop the pressure to ~40 so the ride home on the road will feel squishy in comparison.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697984765&stc=1&d=1567583093

[Bob Ross]

38 mm tires still give you the “connected to the pavement” sensation that makes a racing bike feel so fast.

Jan Heine is on drugs.

Two of my three road bikes still sport 23mm tires because I simply haven't felt any improvement with wider tires for the types of road surfaces I typically ride them on. The third road bike has 25mm tires because I wanted to experience what everyone was talking about re: wider tires, and it turns out 28mm don't fit on that bike. My gravel bike has 32mm slicks now, though I've also used 35 and 37mm knobbies on that bike and may change back depending on anticipated usage.

38mm for fast paved riding? Seriously, drugs.

[livingminimal]

T
While I can for the most part keep up with the faster riders in the group with this setup, I sense that it is a slower bike than my Trek Koppenberg or my Argon18 Gallium Pro with their lighter weight and 23mm tires.




No group rides for me, so no problem for me. Shakka brah!

[Ttx1]

I’ve been riding Compass EL Something Pass in 35 for a lot of rides on my “allroad” bike.

When I take out ye olde Spooky Skeletor with mere 28c tubs, I feel like I have a constant tailwind.

That said, feeling aside, I don’t see radically different numbers on familiar routes.

[citycyclist247]

23 mm. I ride track so I need that nartow width.

[scottcw2]

For Bay Area riders, what width 650b would you use for gravel, single track in the area? @joosttx, etc.

[pakora]

I'm with Jan on this one. I'll agree with the weight comment and the spin style from Clean - 205 at a fighting weight, I'm roughly a pound per centimetre of height.

48s on my gravel wheels (and 57s I haven't tried... I just can't believe wider on a regular bike makes any sense. Still bought 'em though heh), 38s on my dynamo "all road" wheels. 32s on my commuter only because that's the limit of the frame, but that bike doesn't go offroad.

My CAAD9 doesn't take larger than a 25 on the back with a 23mm rim and as a result I only like that bike for criterium racing, which is to say that if you include the Kurt trainer, a laptop on a stand and Zwift in the offseason, I have a very practical and modular spin bike that transforms into a road bike for anyone willing to ride rock hard skinny tires.

I rode it once last year. It "felt" fast on smooth pavement a dry, sunny day. That was cool.

Not cool enough to ride it again though.

[weaponsgrade]

For Bay Area riders, what width 650b would you use for gravel, single track in the area? @joosttx, etc.

I run 700x38s (EL Compass Barlow Passes) on my gravel, Thunder Burts 2.25 on my rigid 29er, and Racing Ralph/Nobby Nic combo on my FS 29er. The Barlow Passes seem to be a good compromise between road and dirt performance. I don't think they'd work very well in wet dirt conditions. I've ridden them all over the Headlands and Tam (Railroad Grade, Coastal, Miwok, Diaz, Coyote Ridge, etc. - but not Eldridge Grade that one seems like it'd be a little too much for the BPs).

For fireroading, I switch between the rigid 29er and gravel drop bar. I like the better control I get using mtn bars on single track. The rigid 29er has become my goto for Mt. Sutro/Laguna Honda in SF.

The FS 29er gets pulled out for bigger stuff like Skeggs, Tamarancho, Demo, and China Camp. I don't think I'd want to go any narrower than a 2.25 for Bay Area single track. Though I used to ride all these places on a rigid 26er, 2.10s pumped to concrete-level suppleness, and cantis. And once I rode Skeggs and Demo on a CX with 32s.

I was at Skeggs yesterday and demo'd my brother's new Ripmo with 2.5 Maxxis Assegai (I think) tires. Those tires/width hooked up much better than the Racing Ralph I had on my Ripley. I'll probably get something more aggressive on the next tire and see if I can squeeze in something bigger.

[GregL]

My CAAD9 doesn't take larger than a 25 on the back with a 23mm rim and as a result I only like that bike for criterium racing, which is to say that if you include the Kurt trainer, a laptop on a stand and Zwift in the offseason, I have a very practical and modular spin bike that transforms into a road bike for anyone willing to ride rock hard skinny tires.

I rode it once last year. It "felt" fast on smooth pavement a dry, sunny day. That was cool.

Not cool enough to ride it again though.
I wonder if Cannondale improved tire clearance on later CAAD9s. I have a CAAD9 from the last year of production (2010) and it will fit 28s on a 23mm rim (Gravel King tires on Velocity A23 rims). The clearance on the back is generous while the front is probably at the lower limit. For most rides, I use Conti GP4000 SII 700x23 tires that measure 26mm on Kinlin XR26T rims. Loads of tire clearance and very good ride quality with 95PSI front/100PSI rear.

Greg

[Jaybee]

I run 700x38s (EL Compass Barlow Passes) on my gravel, Thunder Burts 2.25 on my rigid 29er, and Racing Ralph/Nobby Nic combo on my FS 29er. The Barlow Passes seem to be a good compromise between road and dirt performance. I don't think they'd work very well in wet dirt conditions. I've ridden them all over the Headlands and Tam (Railroad Grade, Coastal, Miwok, Diaz, Coyote Ridge, etc. - but not Eldridge Grade that one seems like it'd be a little too much for the BPs).

For fireroading, I switch between the rigid 29er and gravel drop bar. I like the better control I get using mtn bars on single track. The rigid 29er has become my goto for Mt. Sutro/Laguna Honda in SF.

The FS 29er gets pulled out for bigger stuff like Skeggs, Tamarancho, Demo, and China Camp. I don't think I'd want to go any narrower than a 2.25 for Bay Area single track. Though I used to ride all these places on a rigid 26er, 2.10s pumped to concrete-level suppleness, and cantis. And once I rode Skeggs and Demo on a CX with 32s.

I was at Skeggs yesterday and demo'd my brother's new Ripmo with 2.5 Maxxis Assegai (I think) tires. Those tires/width hooked up much better than the Racing Ralph I had on my Ripley. I'll probably get something more aggressive on the next tire and see if I can squeeze in something bigger.

Your Ripley absolutely deserves bigger, more aggressive tires. MTB on 2.5/2.6 is almost a different sport than 2.2

Maybe DHF/Aggressor as a start? Assegai is a hardcore Enduro/gravity tire.

My gravel bike is almost always wearing 650b x 2ish. I like it a lot better on trails and road compared to 700x40. Probably an experience akin to the old school 26er.

[weaponsgrade]

Your Ripley absolutely deserves bigger, more aggressive tires. MTB on 2.5/2.6 is almost a different sport than 2.2

Maybe DHF/Aggressor as a start? Assegai is a hardcore Enduro/gravity tire.

My gravel bike is almost always wearing 650b x 2ish. I like it a lot better on trails and road compared to 700x40. Probably an experience akin to the old school 26er.

The Racing Ralphs/Nobby Nics were what the bike originally came with. My Ripley is the LS model and I'm pretty sure the most I'll be able to squeeze in the back is a 2.4. It's almost time for a new tire and I'll be looking for something more aggressive.

[weiwentg]

Depends on the bike. My Drifter is running 35mm and they perform well on and off road. I ran 32s on my recently sold MRB and that performed exceptionally well with that setup.
My Great Divide sits on belgium+ with 28s and is my go to road bike. The Ottrott is on 25mm tires and still rides extremely well planted and comfortable and has room for 28s, but I just haven't felt a need for them.
...

I've wondered about the bit in bold. The Drifter (https://22bicycles.com/products/drifter-ready-made) is designed to clear 45mm tires. On a given frame, wider tires will increase the trail. Within some limits, e.g. 23mm to 28mm, this won't be noticeable. If we are talking about going from 28mm to 38mm, it may be another story.

This is alluded in a comment on Heine's post (https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/12-myths-in-cycling-1-wider-tires-are-slower/) by Michael Martinov, and Heine responds.

Michael Martinov says:
January 3, 2018 at 6:50 am
I compared wide and narrow tires, 42 and 32 mm Clement X’plor MSO, on my cyclocross bike and found one drawback with wide tires – the handling of the bike is worse, I think because contact patch of the front tire is almost square on the wide tires and more elongated in narrower tires. This is especially evident in mud, rough surface, and for a light cyclist (60 kg).

Jan Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:
January 3, 2018 at 2:37 pm
You are right – wider tires change the handling of the bike because the wider tires stabilize the bike – this works a bit like the geometric trail of the front-end geometry, and thus it’s called pneumatic trail. The ideal bike for wide tires has a front-end geometry that is designed for the wider tires, usually by reducing the geometric trail. Then, a bike with wide tires can handle the same as a bike with narrower tires. We’ll cover that in another part of this series about ’12 Myths of Cycling.’

So, 38mm tires may make perfect sense, but the bike has to be designed around big tires. My road bike was technically designed for 23mm tires. I've run 25 and 28mm tires. I won't go back to 23s, and I may not even go back to 25s. However, the bike wasn't designed to handle with something like 38mm tires. In any case, it's got rim brakes, and the frame itself may not clear anything over 28mm.

When I get rid of that bike, I can see getting a road bike (or all-road bike?) designed for 32-38mm slick tires. Until then, I can't answer the question properly. There is no way I could try my primary road bike with 28mm and 38mm tires. If I could try it, I suspect I'd find my bike a bit sluggish, but that's a design issue not inherent to the tires. In absolute terms, 25-28mm is fine on roads in the Twin Cities roads, and it doesn't feel too harsh.

[cash05458]

"38mm for fast paved riding? Seriously, drugs. "

post of the day...still riding 23 here on all my bikes...they work very well...maybe when a set wears out I will give 25's a try and can't imagine that much difference, but will keep open to the possibility...but 38? seriously...

[Jaybee]

The Racing Ralphs/Nobby Nics were what the bike originally came with. My Ripley is the LS model and I'm pretty sure the most I'll be able to squeeze in the back is a 2.4. It's almost time for a new tire and I'll be looking for something more aggressive.

My most frequent riding buddy is on a Ripley LS v3 (the neon yellow one), and he's running 2.6 Nobby Nics F and R - not much mud clearance but we don't ride when it's wet. Just a data point for you.

Racing Ralph is a nice tire, but it tends more to the "rolling resistance" side of the spectrum versus "velcro grip". At least on what I ride (Front Range moondust and kitty litter), Velcro grip feels better to me. I'd rather roll through turns then skate.

Happy tire shopping Go big and have fun!

[Duende]

For Bay Area riders, what width 650b would you use for gravel, single track in the area? @joosttx, etc.

I don't ride 650B, but when I was considering it the Rene Herse Pumpkin Ridge were the tires I was planning on.

Fwiw.. I tried slicks (Bon Jon Pass etc) and compound tread tires(Override, Riddler, Clement etc).. The Override and Bon Jon Pass standing out as excellent tires, but for me and the hilly mix of rocky trails and loose sand on hard rock surfaces.. I ultimately landed on the Steilacomm pass.

No slippage on the trails and work great on pavement to boot.. the 38mm profile also gives the maximum width I can fit in my frame. I ride the north bay trails in Marin previously mentioned, plus east bay trails too (Wildcat, Tilden, Moraga etc).

Really spoiled riding in the Bay Area. So many trails, so little time!!

[weaponsgrade]

My most frequent riding buddy is on a Ripley LS v3 (the neon yellow one), and he's running 2.6 Nobby Nics F and R - not much mud clearance but we don't ride when it's wet. Just a data point for you.

Racing Ralph is a nice tire, but it tends more to the "rolling resistance" side of the spectrum versus "velcro grip". At least on what I ride (Front Range moondust and kitty litter), Velcro grip feels better to me. I'd rather roll through turns then skate.

Happy tire shopping Go big and have fun!

I have the older LS (orange). I've read of varying success with 2.5s. To be honest, I'm feeling tinges of new bike, but my bike slush fund is empty. I set a new PR at least according to Strava on a trail I know well while on the Ripmo

[scoobydrew]

For Bay Area riders, what width 650b would you use for gravel, single track in the area? @joosttx, etc.

I run 650x48 Gravelking SKs, tubeless, at around 20 psi, and mostly ride Marin stuff.