vsalon closed today

[thwart]

Good for them... honoring and supporting action on climate change.

Hopefully 'commandcomm' won't see this and contribute here as well.

[RobJ]

Specialized too. Shut down the site and offices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattTuck]

Progress on this issue has been painfully slow. I work with a professor who has been teaching an MBA level course literally titled "Business & Climate Change" and he got the point last year that he didn't even offer it because there was just so little movement on the policy front - frustrating to be teaching the same concepts every year on the solutions to this challenge, and nothing changes.

He's back teaching it this year, but I share his frustration.

[zennmotion]

Progress on this issue has been painfully slow. I work with a professor who has been teaching an MBA level course literally titled "Business & Climate Change" and he got the point last year that he didn't even offer it because there was just so little movement on the policy front - frustrating to be teaching the same concepts every year on the solutions to this challenge, and nothing changes.

He's back teaching it this year, but I share his frustration.

I found this article on business and climate change yesterday, a good perspective beyond the shallow and stupid "does it exist and do humans contribute" debate that dominates popular media coverage. There are winners and losers, at least short term...
https://slate.com/business/2019/09/climate-change-crisis-companies-rich-lucky-farming-firefighting.html

[Mikej]

Specialized too. Shut down the site and offices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But I bet those Taiwanese factories are still belching out the bikes and parts. No? Sorry to be the first fly in the ointment.

[cinema]

But I bet those Taiwanese factories are still belching out the bikes and parts. No? Sorry to be the first fly in the ointment.

lol. so true though. asia most culpable by magnitudes. US and eu co2 emissions down consistently yoy as they become fully sedentary/service based econs. show me the carbon factories closed for business then get on with your signaling. climate change strikes are good for marketing depts. also they already promote cycling; preaching to the choir here.

developing countries must curb their co2 use and the multinat companies that benefit from their cheap labor must admit they are the main causes or the end will come much sooner than most realize. but yeah. marketing dept loves 'raising awareness'

[notsew]

But I bet those Taiwanese factories are still belching out the bikes and parts. No? Sorry to be the first fly in the ointment.

An old Outside article popped up on my news feed about that very thing:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2261721/dirty-secret-hiding-your-high-end-mountain-bike

Worth considering, but a painfully small piece of the pie, all things considered.

[ftf]

lol. so true though. asia most culpable by magnitudes. US and eu co2 emissions down consistently yoy as they become fully sedentary/service based econs. show me the carbon factories closed for business then get on with your signaling. climate change strikes are good for marketing depts. also they already promote cycling; preaching to the choir here.



If they are making stuff for US consumption, doesn't that make the US culpable for those emissions?

[cinema]

If they are making stuff for US consumption, doesn't that make the US culpable for those emissions?

sure. so close down the factories for a few days. the us has always outsourced their pollution whether its to the blue collar town across the river or the developing country across the ocean.

[FlashUNC]

developing countries must curb their co2 use and the multinat companies that benefit from their cheap labor must admit they are the main causes or the end will come much sooner than most realize. but yeah. marketing dept loves 'raising awareness'

That's just not true:

The top three greenhouse gas emitters— China, the European Union and the United States—contribute more than half of total global emissions, while the bottom 100 countries only account for 3.5 percent.1 Collectively, the top 10 emitters account for nearly three-quarters of global emissions. The world can’t successfully tackle the climate change challenge without significant action from these countries.


https://www.wri.org/blog/2017/04/interactive-chart-explains-worlds-top-10-emitters-and-how-theyve-changed

[MattTuck]

If they are making stuff for US consumption, doesn't that make the US culpable for those emissions?

For a seemingly simple statement, there are some really deep ideas there.

If there were a price on emissions, then it doesn't matter who is culpable. The consumer would pay the pass through price and the incentives would be there to reduce emissions.

[PQJ]

Who is responsible for what and who is or is not doing whatever misses the point. "It" is real. "It" is, more probably than not, going to materially adversely affect everyone on the planet. Not only has the United States of America totally abdicated its role in world affairs, but the official position of the government of the United States of America is, in essence, that "it" isn't real and that not only do we not need to do anything about "it," but what in fact we need to be doing is precisely what we have been doing for the past hundred or more years, only on steroids. Good on vsalon for doing something about raising awareness because, crazy as it is, awareness is currently what we are stuck on.

[cinema]

That's just not true:




https://www.wri.org/blog/2017/04/interactive-chart-explains-worlds-top-10-emitters-and-how-theyve-changed


is there more recent data? as far as I know nothing I said is wrong nor does your article refute it. the us and eu continue to lower co2 emissions. I never said they weren't the highest after Asia, simply that Asia is increasing while us and eu are lowering in general yoy. https://www.statista.com/chart/8003/us-carbon-dioxide-emissions-compared/. of course I'm including India with Asia.

[cinema]

Who is responsible for what and who is or is not doing whatever misses the point. "It" is real. "It" is, more probably than not, going to materially adversely affect everyone on the planet. Not only has the United States of America totally abdicated its role in world affairs, but the official position of the government of the United States of America is, in essence, that "it" isn't real and that not only do we not need to do anything about "it," but what in fact we need to be doing is precisely what we have been doing for the past hundred or more years, only on steroids. Good on vsalon for doing something about raising awareness because, crazy as it is, awareness is currently what we are stuck on.

I agree and blame is nebulous and an illusion because we are all implicated. I don't think closing your website for a day does anything more than net you brownie points (spec not salon, salon isn't really a business). salon is a forum of public opinion and it's their job to do things like that. even as cyclists we can make small improvements day by day in our community; this year I finally got a trailer and instead of firing up the car every time I want to go to the grocery I'll just ride the surly with my bob. local pollution causes asthma, lower iq, poverty and environmental damage just as global pollution does.

short trips in particular are bad for the local environment, as cars can take as long as 20 minutes to warm up the several o2 sensors required by law to reduce emissions. driving on a cold engine around town dumps a much greater amount of fuel into the engine.

[redir]

Who is responsible for what and who is or is not doing whatever misses the point. "It" is real. "It" is, more probably than not, going to materially adversely affect everyone on the planet. Not only has the United States of America totally abdicated its role in world affairs, but the official position of the government of the United States of America is, in essence, that "it" isn't real and that not only do we not need to do anything about "it," but what in fact we need to be doing is precisely what we have been doing for the past hundred or more years, only on steroids. Good on vsalon for doing something about raising awareness because, crazy as it is, awareness is currently what we are stuck on.

The deniers will never be convinced otherwise though. They are trenched in real good. So it does seem like it's awareness for the sake of those who are aware. And really what this action does is put the deniers in even deeper, the back fire affect. But if it does manage to bring a few over who are on the fence then it's a good thing.

[CunegoFan]

If virtue signalling can solve anything then we got this thing licked.

Otherwise it's just a bunch of clowns patting themselves on the back for doing nothing.

[PQJ]

yawn

[ojingoh]

If they are making stuff for US consumption, doesn't that make the US culpable for those emissions?

Pretty much, yeah. This forum is mostly about riding, but a lot about buying. Lots of my hobbies are about buying more stuff, something I realize I have to consider more carefully going forward.

[notsew]

I personally think its going to take Florida getting swallowed up by the ocean for the US to do anything meaningful about curbing emissions. By then it will probably be too late. I don't know how you actually get people to care. Its one thing to shut down your website, its quite another to quit driving your car or not fly on vacation or not buy piles of plastic ****. If people aren't willing to do those things, our politicians aren't going to be willing to act against their masters.

[zetroc]

If virtue signalling can solve anything then we got this thing licked.

Otherwise it's just a bunch of clowns patting themselves on the back for doing nothing.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[azrider]

I wonder if any activists planted a single tree today?

Or

did they make thousands of signs made out of wood, paper & cardboard that they'll eventually throw next to an overflowing trash can.......


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[joosttx]

If virtue signalling can solve anything then we got this thing licked.

Otherwise it's just a bunch of clowns patting themselves on the back for doing nothing.

I wonder if any activists planted a single tree today?

Or

did they make thousands of signs made out of wood, paper & cardboard that they'll eventually throw next to an overflowing trash can.......


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Consumption happens. It Is very simple minded (not saying you both have a simple mind) to think of solving problems like climate change in absolutes.

[tuscanyswe]

well the activists at least made enough of a stir for specialized and others to close their site down which started this thread which reminded some of us again that this problem is not going away and we really ought to do more.

Now we can just sit here and say that they arent really doing anything standing around with signs if that makes us feel better ofcourse.. Or we could try and take in the message again. We need to change our habits and makes some changes for sake of our future.

Next friday our company will tell our customers that we will make deliveries for you if neccasary but we rather you not book any work today for the sake of climate change awareness. I will personally work this day but not all of our staff will and hopefully we will not have a lot of work. Will it save the earth? Nope but its something small that we can do pretty easily.

[Dino Suegiù]

well the activists at least made enough of a stir for specialized and others to close their site down which started this thread which reminded some of us again that this problem is not going away and we really ought to do more.

Now we can just sit here and say that they arent really doing anything standing around with signs if that makes us feel better ofcourse.. Or we could try and take in the message again. We need to change our habits and makes some changes for sake of our future.

Next friday our company will tell our customers that we will make deliveries for you if neccasary but we rather you not book any work today for the sake of climate change awareness. I will personally work this day but not all of our staff will and hopefully we will not have a lot of work. Will it save the earth? Nope but its something small that we can do pretty easily.

Excellent.
That seems like a very effective way to convey the message, and to have your clients really think of their own positions and actions, rather than easily, simply, very possibly dismissively react to yours.
Far more effective than just shuttering the doors and going completely silent for a day imo.
Bravo.

[e-RICHIE]

Now we can just sit here and say that they arent really doing anything standing around with signs if that makes us feel better ofcourse.. Or we could try and take in the message again. We need to change our habits and makes some changes for sake of our future.



Sometimes, whatever it takes to get others (who may be otherwise unaware) to take in the message can be a positive.

[HenryA]

Its hard to take direction from an entity who consumes or makes $10,000 bikes. I might listen to a person riding a 25 year old steel bike with sensible tires who rides to work everyday.

But if you have a stable of high end bikes and a closet full of Rapha, don’t tell me I’m the problem.

[e-RICHIE]

Its hard to take direction from an entity who consumes or makes $10,000 bikes. I might listen to a person riding a 25 year old steel bike with sensible tires who rides to work everyday.

But if you have a stable of high end bikes and a closet full of Rapha, don’t tell me I’m the problem.

This reply came in right after mine, so I don't know if it's for me.

Don't confuse what I do for a living with who I am. I chose to work alone, and for me to have sustained, I have to charge what I do. PS I have two matching bicycles that have each been repainted 8-9 times since 2007. And I own maybe 4 riding outfits.

Apologies if I've wrongly assumed you were posting to me.

[RobJ]

Its hard to take direction from an entity who consumes or makes $10,000 bikes. I might listen to a person riding a 25 year old steel bike with sensible tires who rides to work everyday.



But if you have a stable of high end bikes and a closet full of Rapha, don’t tell me I’m the problem.



I think you are way off the mark. Sounds like you have something against those who ride expensive bikes and wear Rapha?

That has nothing to do with the point being made here and the activism. Rapha is made in a factory in the same manner as the cotton t-shirt sold in a department store. Same with your 25 year old bike vs. a $10k Spesh. They are all produced and made from consumables which many believe are the root of the climate problem.

Any company and especially one that has the market’s eye/attention getting behind a cause is a good thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[charliedid]

The Earth doesn't know who's Chinese, American or French.

One people, one earth.

[Black Dog]

This reply came in right after mine, so I don't know if it's for me.

Don't confuse what I do for a living with who I am. I chose to work alone, and for me to have sustained, I have to charge what I do. PS I have two matching bicycles that have each been repainted 8-9 times since 2007. And I own maybe 4 riding outfits.

Apologies if I've wrongly assumed you were posting to me.

Suspect that he was referring to Specialized.

[HenryA]

This reply came in right after mine, so I don't know if it's for me.

Don't confuse what I do for a living with who I am. I chose to work alone, and for me to have sustained, I have to charge what I do. PS I have two matching bicycles that have each been repainted 8-9 times since 2007. And I own maybe 4 riding outfits.

Apologies if I've wrongly assumed you were posting to me.
Absolutely not directed at you. And I’m sorry if you thought it was.

You’d be the polar opposite of who I was criticizing. For how you made your living and who you are. AFAIK.

[Kirk007]

Yes personal consumption is a contributor to climate change, but the consumption that is killing us isn't bicycles or textiles.

It's the huge consumption of fossil fuel, the strategic delay of changing from fossil fuels by big oil and coal so that they can eke out every last penny of their existing infrastructure and investment despite knowing the ramifications. It's the false notion that natural gas is a clean fuel, ignoring the intense impact of methane releases. It's the western reliance on energy intensive protein sources from animals that emit huge amounts of methane. It's the out of control birth rates in third world countries - a direct result of poverty, lack of education and resource scarcity, exacerbated by perverse religious driven resistance to providing birth control and education. It's the failure to recognize that the insatiable engine of the leading economic system in the world, capitalism, exernalizes the direct cost of contributors to climate change, just as it has always externalized production costs usually with the acquiesence of government. It's the hugely difficult problem that is coming - if we cut consumption, and hence the production of stuff, how do people make a living - we already answers to what will happen with the continued automation of tasks and AI. Its the failure of every person around the world who, if they have the means, fails to hold their elected leaders accountable for the welfare of the commons, allowing them to endlessly give in to the allure of power and money. And it is as bad in the USA as anywhere in the world right now. In 6O years on earth, at least 45 of which I've been paying attention, never, ever have I witnesses a time of such graft, self interest and cowardice than that currently occuring on a daily basis in at least 2 of our branches of federal government, and I'm not so sure the third branch is much less toxic at the upper levels.

At the end of the day most of us hanging out here, given our age and resources, will get off relatively light, but our children, grandchildren, those kids taking to the streets around the world they are and will continue to be the . ones who suffer as a result of myopic selfish nature of humans. And the reality is its already too late to change of the fate of millions of humans who by no fault of their own were born in low elevation, coastal areas of third world countries. If you really want to understand the immigration crisis and why its going to get much much worse, one need only consider the resource scarcities already occurring and that will get worse. As homes, cities, islands, nations are literally wiped out, where will those people go? Who will take them in? And it won't be too long before Americans in similar locations suffer the same fate; some already are. While it may be possible to mitigate some of the impacts make no mistake, the crisis, and the losses are already here.

Good for the millions who took to the streets today. Good on each and everyone here who is taking personal responsibility by reducing their own consumption and encouraging others to do so. Good for VSalon. But its going to take a lot more than that to overcome the rot that has taken hold of "the leaders of the free world."

I wish I had answers and solutions. But I've been pushing the rock of care for the non-human species of this earth, and having it roll back down the hill crushing me for so long, well, its hard to be optimistic. But tomorrow I'll get up and pull up my big boy pants and start pushing again. My kid deserves that much.

[buddybikes]

I feel I have done, least partially, my part:
- we downsized to a 920sq house with plethora of trees, grass (not fertizilized) and flowers.
- new 95%+ efficiency heating system
- older house but stuffed to gills with insulation
- south facing living room
- we have 2 priuses and my Audi Allroad. On the later I looked but couldn't find a wagon hybrid, Audi does about 6k year.
- I do trips to pharmacy, hair cut, physical therapy and such from my bike. If we had a nice grocery store, I would invest in more than my backpack. '

Our situation is probably more dire than others here, we have waterfront in RI. Our house is 8 ft above sea level, and was recently put into VE zone. Fortunately we own the home so flood insurance we don't get, self insuring. More concerned with hurricaine coming up through the narragansett bay, which would whip out RI as we know it.

1697985576

[redir]

Yes personal consumption is a contributor to climate change, but the consumption that is killing us isn't bicycles or textiles.

It's the huge consumption of fossil fuel, the strategic delay of changing from fossil fuels by big oil and coal so that they can eke out every last penny of their existing infrastructure and investment despite knowing the ramifications. It's the false notion that natural gas is a clean fuel, ignoring the intense impact of methane releases. It's the western reliance on energy intensive protein sources from animals that emit huge amounts of methane. It's the out of control birth rates in third world countries - a direct result of poverty, lack of education and resource scarcity, exacerbated by perverse religious driven resistance to providing birth control and education. It's the failure to recognize that the insatiable engine of the leading economic system in the world, capitalism, exernalizes the direct cost of contributors to climate change, just as it has always externalized production costs usually with the acquiesence of government. It's the hugely difficult problem that is coming - if we cut consumption, and hence the production of stuff, how do people make a living - we already answers to what will happen with the continued automation of tasks and AI. Its the failure of every person around the world who, if they have the means, fails to hold their elected leaders accountable for the welfare of the commons, allowing them to endlessly give in to the allure of power and money. And it is as bad in the USA as anywhere in the world right now. In 6O years on earth, at least 45 of which I've been paying attention, never, ever have I witnesses a time of such graft, self interest and cowardice than that currently occuring on a daily basis in at least 2 of our branches of federal government, and I'm not so sure the third branch is much less toxic at the upper levels.

At the end of the day most of us hanging out here, given our age and resources, will get off relatively light, but our children, grandchildren, those kids taking to the streets around the world they are and will continue to be the . ones who suffer as a result of myopic selfish nature of humans. And the reality is its already too late to change of the fate of millions of humans who by no fault of their own were born in low elevation, coastal areas of third world countries. If you really want to understand the immigration crisis and why its going to get much much worse, one need only consider the resource scarcities already occurring and that will get worse. As homes, cities, islands, nations are literally wiped out, where will those people go? Who will take them in? And it won't be too long before Americans in similar locations suffer the same fate; some already are. While it may be possible to mitigate some of the impacts make no mistake, the crisis, and the losses are already here.

Good for the millions who took to the streets today. Good on each and everyone here who is taking personal responsibility by reducing their own consumption and encouraging others to do so. Good for VSalon. But its going to take a lot more than that to overcome the rot that has taken hold of "the leaders of the free world."

I wish I had answers and solutions. But I've been pushing the rock of care for the non-human species of this earth, and having it roll back down the hill crushing me for so long, well, its hard to be optimistic. But tomorrow I'll get up and pull up my big boy pants and start pushing again. My kid deserves that much.

We need "like" buttons. Here here!

[Clean39T]

Yes personal consumption is a contributor to climate change, but the consumption that is killing us isn't bicycles or textiles.



It's the huge consumption of fossil fuel, the strategic delay of changing from fossil fuels by big oil and coal so that they can eke out every last penny of their existing infrastructure and investment despite knowing the ramifications. It's the false notion that natural gas is a clean fuel, ignoring the intense impact of methane releases. It's the western reliance on energy intensive protein sources from animals that emit huge amounts of methane. It's the out of control birth rates in third world countries - a direct result of poverty, lack of education and resource scarcity, exacerbated by perverse religious driven resistance to providing birth control and education. It's the failure to recognize that the insatiable engine of the leading economic system in the world, capitalism, exernalizes the direct cost of contributors to climate change, just as it has always externalized production costs usually with the acquiesence of government. It's the hugely difficult problem that is coming - if we cut consumption, and hence the production of stuff, how do people make a living - we already answers to what will happen with the continued automation of tasks and AI. Its the failure of every person around the world who, if they have the means, fails to hold their elected leaders accountable for the welfare of the commons, allowing them to endlessly give in to the allure of power and money. And it is as bad in the USA as anywhere in the world right now. In 6O years on earth, at least 45 of which I've been paying attention, never, ever have I witnesses a time of such graft, self interest and cowardice than that currently occuring on a daily basis in at least 2 of our branches of federal government, and I'm not so sure the third branch is much less toxic at the upper levels.



At the end of the day most of us hanging out here, given our age and resources, will get off relatively light, but our children, grandchildren, those kids taking to the streets around the world they are and will continue to be the . ones who suffer as a result of myopic selfish nature of humans. And the reality is its already too late to change of the fate of millions of humans who by no fault of their own were born in low elevation, coastal areas of third world countries. If you really want to understand the immigration crisis and why its going to get much much worse, one need only consider the resource scarcities already occurring and that will get worse. As homes, cities, islands, nations are literally wiped out, where will those people go? Who will take them in? And it won't be too long before Americans in similar locations suffer the same fate; some already are. While it may be possible to mitigate some of the impacts make no mistake, the crisis, and the losses are already here.



Good for the millions who took to the streets today. Good on each and everyone here who is taking personal responsibility by reducing their own consumption and encouraging others to do so. Good for VSalon. But its going to take a lot more than that to overcome the rot that has taken hold of "the leaders of the free world."



I wish I had answers and solutions. But I've been pushing the rock of care for the non-human species of this earth, and having it roll back down the hill crushing me for so long, well, its hard to be optimistic. But tomorrow I'll get up and pull up my big boy pants and start pushing again. My kid deserves that much.

Very well put my friend..


On the micro scale, the one thing we can all do is to be more kind to eachother - listen, and try to understand - connect - be generous. The future that's coming is unavoidable - how we meet it is still to be seen.

[peanutgallery]

So....how many cubic feet of polar ice cap melt does the production/delivery of an iphone cause?

Asking for a friend

[Spdntrxi]

So....how many cubic feet of polar ice cap melt does the production/delivery of an iphone cause?

Asking for a friend

less then all these children bitching about how their parents are destroying the planet...yet they will ask for a ride tomorrow morning to hang out at the mall.

so my friend said...

[nighthawk]

less then all these children bitching about how their parents are destroying the planet...yet they will ask for a ride tomorrow morning to hang out at the mall.

so my friend said...

By calling them children I assume you are saying you are above and better than them? Just curious why you think your opinion and values are more valid than there’s. Not asking for a friend, asking for my own understanding.

[Spdntrxi]

By calling them children I assume you are saying you are above and better than them? Just curious why you think your opinion and values are more valid than there’s. Not asking for a friend, asking for my own understanding.

My friend is calling them children because the are ? where did you get this better then them BS... nice try. Are you under 18 or something and feel slighted ?

[andrew+]

Got 'em!

[joosttx]

My friend is calling them children because the are ? where did you get this better then them BS... nice try. Are you under 18 or something and feel slighted ?

Says the generation who went to a concert got high and thought they changed the world for good.

[Spdntrxi]

Says the generation who went to a concert got high and thought they changed the world for good.

I'll facebook livestream it next time for you ... so you don't have to pay.:banana:

[nighthawk]

My friend is calling them children because the are ? where did you get this better then them BS... nice try. Are you under 18 or something and feel slighted ?

Pushing 40 actually, and I spent the morning volunteering at an International coastal cleanup day, picking up plastic that has washed up on a beach that is nesting habitat for sea turtles. A group of about 100 volunteers picked up almost 2000 lbs of plastic debris. Part of my day job is monitoring those sea turtle nests and ensuring to the best of my ability that this particular species persists despite human behavior degrading the quality of its habitat.

I worked with a 16 year old kid who was putting in hours to meet his school’s annual volunteer requirement. In conversation with him, he told me how he wants to pursue a career making the world a better place. That despite how jaded and selfish many adults are, he just wanted to help others.

Kids like him, the other beach clean-up volunteers and the people who took to the streets today around the world... regardless of their age... they are relevant and hopeful.

Tell me, what do you plan to leave behind?

[Kirk007]

less then all these children bitching about how their parents are destroying the planet...yet they will ask for a ride tomorrow morning to hang out at the mall.

so my friend said...

I disagree with your friend.

Your friend, I must say, in my opinion and experience, has a sad view of American youth. Yes American. I don't think the kids who were protesting in Iran for instance are headed to the mall tomorrow. Holds true for a lot of other places around the globe.

But here in the ole USA: As a parent, based on my experience over the past 26 years, I believe that your friend's generalization is misinformed and an ineffective deflection from the issue. As a former law professor from 2002 - 2010, I know your friend is way off base regarding many, many youth who passed through the doors of my classes. Those kids walked the walk, and many are backing that up in their professional careers.

As a lawyer who has represented some of these "children" in the Children's Trust" lawsuits, I find your friend's overbroad characterization insulting and mean spirited to youth who bravely are doing all that they can to make a difference; more than one - we're talking young teenagers - have endured serious threats, including death threats, for the positions they have taken, while all too many of our generation have had their heads firmly buried in the sand for most of the past 20 -30 years when we had a chance to make a difference.

Undoubtably your friend is right regarding some; surely some of the strikers went along for the ride and the day off from school and may well be doing what you accuse an entire generation of doing. Every movement has its freeloaders and gadflys. But if your friend actually got off his/her lawn and started talking to some of these kids about what they think the future holds for them, and they are not wrong, then maybe your friend would think differently, perhaps a little bit more gracious and a lot less snarky.

And William/other mods if this causes a thread lock, I apologize. but friends shouldn't let friends go through life without hearing other views that may inform their perspective on important issues.

[nighthawk]

Just want my appreciation for Kirk007's posts to be noted.

Thank you, sir.

[Llewellyn]

Just want my appreciation for Kirk007's posts to be noted.

Thank you, sir.

Hear hear, some of the most cogent information I've read on the topic. Thank you.

[Irishgirl]

Personally I did not do my part yesterday and today I will work on making better choices

To touch a bit on the subject of children...One of my children goes to a STEM based high school. There are many unique aspects of this school that leads by example. A couple that stick out:

When she applied for admission one of the assigned essays was to answer “what would you do with $5000 to make an improvement for the world?” She struggled because there was so much and to her she needed more than $5000.

One of the most notable when you walk into the building is a bold display of the UN’s 17 sustainable goals. It is not just a display and the school encourages the entire community, the staff, the student body, their families, the surrounding community to embrace the goals.

As a parent I’m grateful for the leadership and awareness the school provides. They are helping to shape people that are on the path to come up with solutions and infect the change to improve...all of us.

I’m thinking about some of the ways I could be better today to help make my positive impact.

Off now to go ride...my one carbon fiber bike I’ve had for a couple of years now. I do have one other bike an old Miyata which was a replacement for my first bike that was stolen and bought that one with the money I earned from my first job delivering news papers. [emoji16]












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gummee]

Not only has the United States of America totally abdicated its role in world affairs,
Since we're talking politics... Isn't that what the population of the US has wanted since the 19-teens? ...and likely before

The rest is virtue signaling

Yawn. Wake me up when something important is going on.

M

[witcombusa]

The deniers will never be convinced otherwise though. They are trenched in real good. So it does seem like it's awareness for the sake of those who are aware. And really what this action does is put the deniers in even deeper, the back fire affect. But if it does manage to bring a few over who are on the fence then it's a good thing.


Could say the same thing for the 'believes'...

[oldpotatoe]

Could say the same thing for the 'believers.

Except many/most ‘deniers’, lacking any real ideology, deny because it either lines their pockets or keeps them in ‘the big chair’...

[rain dogs]

Could say the same thing for the 'believes'...

Except that there are no "believers" in this topic. There are deniers (those who refuse to accept what has scientific consensus) and those who accept scientific consensus and the scientific process.

The Earth isn't flat my friend. But it's not "round" either at least not perfectly. It's a oblate ellipsoid. But I can tell you an oblate ellipsoid is much, much closer to "round" than it ever will be to flat.

[thwart]

Before the energy from yesterday's activities starts to fade...

Here's a good piece to skim through.

Have a Chase account?

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/money-is-the-oxygen-on-which-the-fire-of-global-warming-burns

[d_douglas]

Just want my appreciation for Kirk007's posts to be noted.

Thank you, sir.

I believe this calls for a plus one ;) +1

I applaud the protestors. I ‘facilitated’ protests yesterday in my city, as part of my professional role, and felt I was doing a good thing

[redir]

Could say the same thing for the 'believes'...

No not really because it's not a matter of belief. I bet for example you vaccinate your children right? I mean, maybe not but I am going to assume you do. if so then why? Why do you vaccinate your children? Because a really lot of smart people did a really lot of hard work in science and medicine and found out ways to tackle these problems that worked. So you don't "believe" vaccines work, you know they do.

[redir]

Except many/most ‘deniers’, lacking any real ideology, deny because it either lines their pockets or keeps them in ‘the big chair’...

I am not attempting to cloe this thread so I will tread lightly. What I see is that a certain political group, the ones who truly do profit from it, and thier big corporate backers have successfully married together culture war attributes so that today if I come out with a statemnet about gay rights then it also means I am for climate change action and I'm commin' to take yer guns.

So it's not that people in general don't 'believe' in climate change it's just that it's tied to the liberal agenda so they cannot support it.

I appologize if this goes beyond forum rules but I am just stating what I see.

[fa63]

As I posted on VS, it doesn't matter whether you believe in climate change or not. We are taught to leave things better than we find them. The same applies to the planet we call home. The strike should be seen as a gentle reminder to us all to take a moment to reflect and think about what you can do to leave Earth in better shape for the next generations to come. It is not political; it is basic human decency.

[Blown Reek]

The strike should be seen as a gentle reminder to us all to take a moment to reflect and think about what you can do to leave Earth in better shape for the next generations to come. It is not political; it is basic human decency.

Baby Boomers as a whole would like to vehemently disagree with this statement.

[PQJ]

Since we're talking politics...

My statement was a factual one, not a political one. At the same time, it is impossible to have this conversation without implicating political penumbras.

[Clean39T]

I am not attempting to cloe this thread so I will tread lightly. What I see is that a certain political group, the ones who truly do profit from it, and thier big corporate backers have successfully married together culture war attributes so that today if I come out with a statemnet about gay rights then it also means I am for climate change action and I'm commin' to take yer guns.



So it's not that people in general don't 'believe' in climate change it's just that it's tied to the liberal agenda so they cannot support it.



I appologize if this goes beyond forum rules but I am just stating what I see.Just divorce yourself from having to look to a political party or movement for identification, and you can support the truth wherever it appears, live your individual values, etc.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[adub]

Global population projection of 11,200,000,000 by the year 2100

[fa63]

You forgot to mention that it is also projected to start flattening out:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/static.gapminder.org/GapminderMedia/wp-uploads/20180313124537/pop-fut1-1024x619.png

Global population projection of 11,200,000,000 by the year 2100

[adub]

You forgot to mention that it is also projected to start flattening out:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/static.gapminder.org/GapminderMedia/wp-uploads/20180313124537/pop-fut1-1024x619.png

Projected to flatten out? LOL!!

[fa63]

Why is that so funny? That is the UN projection. Do you have data that suggests otherwise?

Projected to flatten out? LOL!!

[adub]

Flattening out at 11b, at that point I think the Genie is way out of the bottle.

I find it weird how the global projected population increase isn't often the talking point many of these discussions.

[Mzilliox]

As I posted on VS, it doesn't matter whether you believe in climate change or not. We are taught to leave things better than we find them. The same applies to the planet we call home. The strike should be seen as a gentle reminder to us all to take a moment to reflect and think about what you can do to leave Earth in better shape for the next generations to come. It is not political; it is basic human decency.

this

[CunegoFan]

Except that there are no "believers" in this topic. There are deniers (those who refuse to accept what has scientific consensus) and those who accept scientific consensus and the scientific process.


Really? It's those very believers who have steadfastly opposed nuclear power for the last fifty years. Imagine where we would be and how we would be positioned for electric cars if we were getting 80% of our electricity from nuclear power instead of 20%. The current darling of the left has made opposition to nuclear power part of her presidential platform, all the while pretending to concerned about green house gases. It looks like it's more of a case where each side believes science when it fits their agenda and dismisses it when it does not. The issue is political, and the only part science plays is as something that can be selectively used to attack the opposing side.

[Mzilliox]

I wonder if any activists planted a single tree today?

Or

did they make thousands of signs made out of wood, paper & cardboard that they'll eventually throw next to an overflowing trash can.......


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

i planted a few bruh, dont worry, some of us actually walk the walk and dont just talk. every day, not just yesterday.

[fa63]

Really? It's those very believers who have steadfastly opposed nuclear power for the last fifty years. Imagine where we would be and how we would be positioned for electric cars if we were getting 80% of our electricity from nuclear power instead of 20%. The current darling of the left has made opposition to nuclear power part of her presidential platform, all the while pretending to concerned about green house gases. It looks like it's more of a case where each side believes science when it fits their agenda and dismisses it when it does not. The issue is political, and the only part science plays is as something that can be selectively used to attack the opposing side.

As I am sure you know, nuclear comes with its own environmental "side effects", mainly with water use and waste disposal. Not to mention there are more cost effective alternatives today, such as wind and PV with storage (not that those are without their own side effects). That said, I do agree that opposition to nuclear has been a bit overblown.

[thwart]

Really? It's those very believers who have steadfastly opposed nuclear power for the last fifty years. Imagine where we would be and how we would be positioned for electric cars if we were getting 80% of our electricity from nuclear power instead of 20%.

But... are you and your family members willing to have the nuclear waste repository nearby? OK, in the same state?

And we are certain that nuclear plants will never have catastrophic accidents. :rolleyes:

Wind and sun are much less dirty sources of energy.

[CunegoFan]

Flattening out at 11b, at that point I think the Genie is way out of the bottle.

I find it weird how the global projected population increase isn't often the talking point many of these discussions.

The moment someone mentions the very large elephant in the room, people start crying racism because the increase is mostly coming from Africa. The problem is too many people. Not addressing it is trying to solve a large problem by fixing up a few corner cases. It's why you cannot take any of this virtue signalling seriously.

It's the same with phony environmentalist who claim they want to protect the USA's wild places yet have allied themselves with party's who refuse to do anything about illegal immigration. Overuse and encroachment is the problem, not too few protected areas.

[rain dogs]

Really? It's those very believers who have steadfastly opposed nuclear power for the last fifty years. Imagine where we would be and how we would be positioned for electric cars if we were getting 80% of our electricity from nuclear power instead of 20%. The current darling of the left has made opposition to nuclear power part of her presidential platform, all the while pretending to concerned about green house gases. It looks like it's more of a case where each side believes science when it fits their agenda and dismisses it when it does not. The issue is political, and the only part science plays is as something that can be selectively used to attack the opposing side.

I'm talking climate change, you're talking politics. I think you missed the nuance in the "round vs flat" example.

There are no "believers" when it comes to the science of climate change... there's proof full stop. But there sure are deniers of the science of climate change and then there is politics on top of that. Politics, of course, touches everything.

I'm not interested in discussing politics... nor your politics... furthermore, I understand it ain't allowed round here so I'll abide.

[CunegoFan]

But... are you and your family members willing to have the nuclear waste repository nearby? OK, in the same state?

And we are certain that nuclear plants will never have catastrophic accidents. :rolleyes:

Wind and sun are much less dirty sources of energy.

Yeah, France is a apocalyptic wasteland where guys with mohawks wearing assless chaps prowl the badlands looking for a tank of juice and stragglers huddle together in poorly built forts to protect themselves from the mutants.

Good luck getting your base load from solar and wind.

[rain dogs]

The moment someone mentions the very large elephant in the room, people start crying racism because the increase is mostly coming from Africa. The problem is too many people. Not addressing it is trying to solve a large problem by fixing up a few corner cases. It's why you cannot take any of this virtue signalling seriously.

It's the same with phony environmentalist who claim they want to protect the USA's wild places yet have allied themselves with party's who refuse to do anything about illegal immigration. Overuse and encroachment is the problem, not too few protected areas.

and the problem isn't population in isolation. If everyone lived with the resource strain of the average "African" the Earth has resources that could support an estimated 32,3 billion people (if I remember correctly)

It's a massive population that wants to live like the average American (who use the resources of approx. four Earths) that is the problem which couples two distinct factors: 1. Population 2. Lifestyle/resource strain.

[rallizes]

It was only a matter of time before someone mentioned ‘assless chaps’

[fa63]

Going from 7.6 billion to 11 billion is not catastrophic in and of itself. The problem is that we (and the generations before us) have kept kicking the can down the road and asking the next generation to worry about problems related to this population change, while continuing to consume our finite resources irresponsibly. If we don't change very soon, we will never be able to keep up with the consequences of climate change. Without mitigation now, adaptation will become increasingly more difficult.

The moment someone mentions the very large elephant in the room, people start crying racism because the increase is mostly coming from Africa. The problem is too many people. Not addressing it is trying to solve a large problem by fixing up a few corner cases. It's why you cannot take any of this virtue signalling seriously.

[Gsinill]

Yeah, France is a apocalyptic wasteland where guys with mohawks wearing assless chaps prowl the badlands looking for a tank of juice and stragglers huddle together in poorly built forts to protect themselves from the mutants.

Good luck getting your base load from solar and wind.

Fukushima
Chernobyl

[Kirk007]

Couple final thoughts re all of this before i take my own advice and go for a bike ride:

population, yeah way to many of us. I think we'll see a huge crash before we hit 11 billion.

Why is climate change such a hot button? I think redir has it right.

Decades ago the fossil fuel industry was aware of what was happening; was aware that the only serious way to stop the rise of greenhouse gas emissions was to use less fossil fuels; understood that their investment was at risk and driven by a system that rewards short term profit over long term planning, began a concerted and effective disinformation campaign. But for a brief time in the 70s when we could have made an effective course correction, you know, that time when President Carter was widely disparaged an an Un-American wimp for urging us to put on sweaters, the government has largely been in bed with the fossil fuel industry as our political leaders correctly realized that we the people don't like to sacrifice creature comforts and that a radical change could have huge economic impacts that would mean they would be out of power - "its the economy stupid." Having a government system without term limits, considering the human condition and our innate gravitation towards power and money, the fossil fuel industry found a willing and powerful partner who was willing to overlook its obligation to protect the commons and future generations.

There was another powerful interest group that the fossil fuel industry used - the religious right. Forgetting all the verse and scripture about caring for the earth, the mantra became one of "what hubris to suggest that man can change the climate; only god controls the climate." This then tied in well to the us vs. them tribalism pointed out by redir. It's the godless cretins who support abortion and who don't go to church that are stupid enough to think that we can change the climate.

But climate change is not some one off phenomena of the Creator, rather its simply the cumulative effects of billions of decisions made by billions of people. Not intentional decisions to lay waste to the earth, as Blown Reek's comment might be read to imply. Negligent, perhaps, but I think more often uninformed, misinformed and unintentional. Life is hard and making sacrifices for something you can't put your finger on and for which the bill may not come due in your lifetime - that's a big ask for humans.

Sadly that bill is coming due, and its coming fast and hard. Americans are abadoning their homes in Key West and other low lying communities. The southeast just dodged a huge bullet; the Bahamas were not so lucky, nor Houston and the Gulf Coast. This isn't going to stop, its going to get worse. And America will get off relatively easy compared to many, many of our fellow humans on earth.

What is profoundly sad to me is the current state in the U.S., where decisions that exacerbate climate change are made for no rational reason at all. And at least a majority of the Senate and a large percentage of Americans are seemingly ok with that; ok with sacrificing the lives and well being of their children and grandchildren and for what?

Ex. A: The Executive recently overturned a rule that required oil and gas companies to control methane emissions, a greehouse gas 4x more harmful than CO2. The rule required producers to install emissions capture equipment that put the methane gas back in pipes instead of being burned off into the atmosphere as a byproduct (flaring). Flaring is wasteful, harmful, and uneconomical. The big producers were not in favor of this change - they've largely made the investment in control technology and frankly it gives them a leg up against small mom and pop producers who had long opposed the rule as they didn't want to spend the money to control the emissions. So why was a rule that conserved an important natural resource, and that was not in the economic interests of the fossil fuel industry reversed? There's only one reason I can think of - the rule was implemented by that other guy. Ditto California's emissions regulations - so much for state's rights.

From my lawnchair, that's where we appear to be at in America. If your not currently underwater or preparing for the next storm, go ride your bike while you can and may you avoid all encounters with self absorbed drivers texting instead of watching out for others who are sharing the road.

We get outraged over these callous, thoughtless self absorbed drivers that put our lives in danger. Why aren't we just as outraged by our callous, thoughtless self absorbed politicians who show nothing but disdain for the lives of the rest of us?

[Kirk007]

It's the same with phony environmentalist who claim they want to protect the USA's wild places yet have allied themselves with party's who refuse to do anything about illegal immigration. Overuse and encroachment is the problem, not too few protected areas.

Sorry you are wrong - there are way too little protected areas, and its a global issue not a national one, species don't recognize the lines on the maps we draw. And we are a biological species - it's not just clean air, water, food and shelter we rely on. We are part of larger systems in which we evolved and the rapid decrease in biodiversity is a very real existential threat to humans (unless you believe that a full time diet of solyent green and escape pods to another planet are our solution).

But you are right that the reason we have far too little habitat is overuse, encroachment and above all overpopulation.

Where we really part ways though is your use of a tribalism fallacy and a false narrative about one of our two disfunctional political parties. Yes immigration is a HUGE issue but the issue isn't the innately bad hombre rapists and drug dealers coming for our daughters and children as some politicians would have us believe. It's the climate change driven phenomena of a growing and soon to be overwhelming dislocation of entire nations who will have literally nowhere else to go but to another country.

And lets break it down a bit more in terms the Republican party at least used to ike to flaunt - states rights. I live in a part of a country that is going to get off relatively light from climate change unless the mother of all earthquakes is triggered by climate change and we fall into the Pacific. And yeah, the majority of voters here are part of that party that in your view doesn't care about illegal immigration. But hey what if I and my fellow libtards don't particularly want all those humans from Florida and Texas and elsewhere fleeing their flooded homes and moving into our backyard and trashing the place, particularly if they belong to that other evil tribe of Americans who have denied climate change for decades - let them wallow in the mess they created. Now, I thought the political party that in your view is correctly aligned with illegal immigration was also a big proponent of states rights? What if all the phony democratic environmentalists like that Governor, Jay Inslee in the State of Washington said hell no to all the displaced climate denying Americans looking for a new home? You down with that? Is the party of fighting illegal immigration on board with a United States where respective tribes have their respective territories to defend with walls abnd if necessary with guns? And if not, then is there truly any difference in the approach we as a nation must take towards displaced people from other countries?

This isn't about one or the other political party being right or wrong. It's about what we do as humans stuck on the same little globe with 7 billion others, many of whom are losing their fundmental human needs of food, water and shelter. The idea that we can build a wall or otherwise barricade ourselves from the rest of the world and everything that's happening around us is simplistic naivete. But it does play well with many folks who are very scared and looking for easy answers and reassurance.

[Mzilliox]

the concept and term "virtue signalling" is so American, can we leave that one behind next year and just be real about things?

[NHAero]

Thank you Kirk007 for your clear-thinking and well-expressed posts.


Couple final thoughts re all of this before i take my own advice and go for a bike ride:

population, yeah way to many of us. I think we'll see a huge crash before we hit 11 billion.

Why is climate change such a hot button? I think redir has it right.

Decades ago the fossil fuel industry was aware of what was happening; was aware that the only serious way to stop the rise of greenhouse gas emissions was to use less fossil fuels; understood that their investment was at risk and driven by a system that rewards short term profit over long term planning, began a concerted and effective disinformation campaign. But for a brief time in the 70s when we could have made an effective course correction, you know, that time when President Carter was widely disparaged an an Un-American wimp for urging us to put on sweaters, the government has largely been in bed with the fossil fuel industry as our political leaders correctly realized that we the people don't like to sacrifice creature comforts and that a radical change could have huge economic impacts that would mean they would be out of power - "its the economy stupid." Having a government system without term limits, considering the human condition and our innate gravitation towards power and money, the fossil fuel industry found a willing and powerful partner who was willing to overlook its obligation to protect the commons and future generations.

There was another powerful interest group that the fossil fuel industry used - the religious right. Forgetting all the verse and scripture about caring for the earth, the mantra became one of "what hubris to suggest that man can change the climate; only god controls the climate." This then tied in well to the us vs. them tribalism pointed out by redir. It's the godless cretins who support abortion and who don't go to church that are stupid enough to think that we can change the climate.

But climate change is not some one off phenomena of the Creator, rather its simply the cumulative effects of billions of decisions made by billions of people. Not intentional decisions to lay waste to the earth, as Blown Reek's comment might be read to imply. Negligent, perhaps, but I think more often uninformed, misinformed and unintentional. Life is hard and making sacrifices for something you can't put your finger on and for which the bill may not come due in your lifetime - that's a big ask for humans.

Sadly that bill is coming due, and its coming fast and hard. Americans are abadoning their homes in Key West and other low lying communities. The southeast just dodged a huge bullet; the Bahamas were not so lucky, nor Houston and the Gulf Coast. This isn't going to stop, its going to get worse. And America will get off relatively easy compared to many, many of our fellow humans on earth.

What is profoundly sad to me is the current state in the U.S., where decisions that exacerbate climate change are made for no rational reason at all. And at least a majority of the Senate and a large percentage of Americans are seemingly ok with that; ok with sacrificing the lives and well being of their children and grandchildren and for what?

Ex. A: The Executive recently overturned a rule that required oil and gas companies to control methane emissions, a greehouse gas 4x more harmful than CO2. The rule required producers to install emissions capture equipment that put the methane gas back in pipes instead of being burned off into the atmosphere as a byproduct (flaring). Flaring is wasteful, harmful, and uneconomical. The big producers were not in favor of this change - they've largely made the investment in control technology and frankly it gives them a leg up against small mom and pop producers who had long opposed the rule as they didn't want to spend the money to control the emissions. So why was a rule that conserved an important natural resource, and that was not in the economic interests of the fossil fuel industry reversed? There's only one reason I can think of - the rule was implemented by that other guy. Ditto California's emissions regulations - so much for state's rights.

From my lawnchair, that's where we appear to be at in America. If your not currently underwater or preparing for the next storm, go ride your bike while you can and may you avoid all encounters with self absorbed drivers texting instead of watching out for others who are sharing the road.

We get outraged over these callous, thoughtless self absorbed drivers that put our lives in danger. Why aren't we just as outraged by our callous, thoughtless self absorbed politicians who show nothing but disdain for the lives of the rest of us?

[Mzilliox]

Sorry you are wrong - there are way too little protected areas, and its a global issue not a national one, species don't recognize the lines on the maps we draw. And we are a biological species - it's not just clean air, water, food and shelter we rely on. We are part of larger systems in which we evolved and the rapid decrease in biodiversity is a very real existential threat to humans (unless you believe that a full time diet of solyent green and escape pods to another planet are our solution).

But you are right that the reason we have far too little habitat is overuse, encroachment and above all overpopulation.

Where we really part ways though is your use of a tribalism fallacy and a false narrative about one of our two disfunctional political parties. Yes immigration is a HUGE issue but the issue isn't the innately bad hombre rapists and drug dealers coming for our daughters and children as some politicians would have us believe. It's the climate change driven phenomena of a growing and soon to be overwhelming dislocation of entire nations who will have literally nowhere else to go but to another country.

And lets break it down a bit more in terms the Republican party at least used to ike to flaunt - states rights. I live in a part of a country that is going to get off relatively light from climate change unless the mother of all earthquakes is triggered by climate change and we fall into the Pacific. And yeah, the majority of voters here are part of that party that in your view doesn't care about illegal immigration. But hey what if I and my fellow libtards don't particularly want all those humans from Florida and Texas and elsewhere fleeing their flooded homes and moving into our backyard and trashing the place, particularly if they belong to that other evil tribe of Americans who have denied climate change for decades - let them wallow in the mess they created. Now, I thought the political party that in your view is correctly aligned with illegal immigration was also a big proponent of states rights? What if all the phony democratic environmentalists like that Governor, Jay Inslee in the State of Washington said hell no to all the displaced climate denying Americans looking for a new home? You down with that? Is the party of fighting illegal immigration on board with a United States where respective tribes have their respective territories to defend with walls abnd if necessary with guns? And if not, then is there truly any difference in the approach we as a nation must take towards displaced people from other countries?

This isn't about one or the other political party being right or wrong. It's about what we do as humans stuck on the same little globe with 7 billion others, many of whom are losing their fundmental human needs of food, water and shelter. The idea that we can build a wall or otherwise barricade ourselves from the rest of the world and everything that's happening around us is simplistic naivete. But it does play well with many folks who are very scared and looking for easy answers and reassurance.

if you are in grants pass or close, i owe you a few beers, or tea, or whatever you want. sense and sense and more sense.

[Mzilliox]

why are people making this partisan? we all have to live here. scientists are just scientists with info, the info doesnt care if you vote for trump.

and whats this noise about phony environmentalists? they come from a place of worry and love, while "non-environmentalists" (why is there such a thing?) come from a place of profit and destruction. whose motives are more suspect?

[XXtwindad]

Couple final thoughts re all of this before i take my own advice and go for a bike ride:

population, yeah way to many of us. I think we'll see a huge crash before we hit 11 billion.

Why is climate change such a hot button? I think redir has it right.

Decades ago the fossil fuel industry was aware of what was happening; was aware that the only serious way to stop the rise of greenhouse gas emissions was to use less fossil fuels; understood that their investment was at risk and driven by a system that rewards short term profit over long term planning, began a concerted and effective disinformation campaign. But for a brief time in the 70s when we could have made an effective course correction, you know, that time when President Carter was widely disparaged an an Un-American wimp for urging us to put on sweaters, the government has largely been in bed with the fossil fuel industry as our political leaders correctly realized that we the people don't like to sacrifice creature comforts and that a radical change could have huge economic impacts that would mean they would be out of power - "its the economy stupid." Having a government system without term limits, considering the human condition and our innate gravitation towards power and money, the fossil fuel industry found a willing and powerful partner who was willing to overlook its obligation to protect the commons and future generations.

There was another powerful interest group that the fossil fuel industry used - the religious right. Forgetting all the verse and scripture about caring for the earth, the mantra became one of "what hubris to suggest that man can change the climate; only god controls the climate." This then tied in well to the us vs. them tribalism pointed out by redir. It's the godless cretins who support abortion and who don't go to church that are stupid enough to think that we can change the climate.

But climate change is not some one off phenomena of the Creator, rather its simply the cumulative effects of billions of decisions made by billions of people. Not intentional decisions to lay waste to the earth, as Blown Reek's comment might be read to imply. Negligent, perhaps, but I think more often uninformed, misinformed and unintentional. Life is hard and making sacrifices for something you can't put your finger on and for which the bill may not come due in your lifetime - that's a big ask for humans.

Sadly that bill is coming due, and its coming fast and hard. Americans are abadoning their homes in Key West and other low lying communities. The southeast just dodged a huge bullet; the Bahamas were not so lucky, nor Houston and the Gulf Coast. This isn't going to stop, its going to get worse. And America will get off relatively easy compared to many, many of our fellow humans on earth.

What is profoundly sad to me is the current state in the U.S., where decisions that exacerbate climate change are made for no rational reason at all. And at least a majority of the Senate and a large percentage of Americans are seemingly ok with that; ok with sacrificing the lives and well being of their children and grandchildren and for what?

Ex. A: The Executive recently overturned a rule that required oil and gas companies to control methane emissions, a greehouse gas 4x more harmful than CO2. The rule required producers to install emissions capture equipment that put the methane gas back in pipes instead of being burned off into the atmosphere as a byproduct (flaring). Flaring is wasteful, harmful, and uneconomical. The big producers were not in favor of this change - they've largely made the investment in control technology and frankly it gives them a leg up against small mom and pop producers who had long opposed the rule as they didn't want to spend the money to control the emissions. So why was a rule that conserved an important natural resource, and that was not in the economic interests of the fossil fuel industry reversed? There's only one reason I can think of - the rule was implemented by that other guy. Ditto California's emissions regulations - so much for state's rights.

From my lawnchair, that's where we appear to be at in America. If your not currently underwater or preparing for the next storm, go ride your bike while you can and may you avoid all encounters with self absorbed drivers texting instead of watching out for others who are sharing the road.

We get outraged over these callous, thoughtless self absorbed drivers that put our lives in danger. Why aren't we just as outraged by our callous, thoughtless self absorbed politicians who show nothing but disdain for the lives of the rest of us?

Far and away one of the most consistently reasonable, insightful, and well-articulated voices on the Paceline.

Unfortunately, one of the sacrifices I had to make when having kids was to be much less "carbon neutral." I actually never owned a car (or a house) until I had kids, which was much later in life. Hard to see a way around this if you don't live centrally located in an urban environment.

[XXtwindad]

Yeah, France is a apocalyptic wasteland where guys with mohawks wearing assless chaps prowl the badlands looking for a tank of juice and stragglers huddle together in poorly built forts to protect themselves from the mutants.

Good luck getting your base load from solar and wind.

One of the best "snark artists" on the site. I don't happen to share your opinions, but your prose has got some zing.

[XXtwindad]

I'm talking climate change, you're talking politics. I think you missed the nuance in the "round vs flat" example.

There are no "believers" when it comes to the science of climate change... there's proof full stop. But there sure are deniers of the science of climate change and then there is politics on top of that. Politics, of course, touches everything.

I'm not interested in discussing politics... nor your politics... furthermore, I understand it ain't allowed round here so I'll abide.

Big props to you and Old Potato. Two vendors with the gumption to consistently get in the ring and express their opinions.

[fa63]

Actually, what is racist is to blame the world's future problems on the future Africans, who have had nothing to do with the situation that non-Africans have put the world in.

The same concept applies to the US telling China and India to curb their emissions: it was OK for us to pollute all these years (and continue to do so at a high rate) while achieving economic prosperity, but it is not OK for them to do the same. Do as I say, not as I do; what a priviliged position...

The moment someone mentions the very large elephant in the room, people start crying racism because the increase is mostly coming from Africa. The problem is too many people. Not addressing it is trying to solve a large problem by fixing up a few corner cases. It's why you cannot take any of this virtue signalling seriously.

[Blown Reek]

Keep in mind that there are people out there that think:

It’s a scam. Obama just bought a beachfront house, but he said sea levels would rise and everyone on the coasts would be under water.

Global warming, which had to be changed to climate change is a racket to bring about socialism and control our lives.

Remember global cooling scare from the 70s. Fear mongering and scare tactics.

And chances are, even though climate science isn't partisan, they eat what they've been fed. Goddamn ignorant sheep.

[NHAero]

Two more thoughts here:
1 -
There's no question that the fossil fuel industries are culpable, as has been eloquently expressed. Yet, people are the market for their goods. I'm 66. Since I was a kid, the average house size per person in the US has tripled; the miles driven per person has doubled; and we have a lot more stuff (to fill those bigger houses, but also, because of technology - I didn't have a laptop and iPad growing up :-)

There's a massive environmental impact of all of the above. Are we living happier, better, more rewarding lives because of this increased impact?

2 -
Policy and lobbying trumps physics and economics.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/planet-overheats-ohios-coal-industry-gets-a-bailout

[fa63]

Good points. Consumers are to blame to a large degree, but it doesn't help when you have politicians making bad policies. An example is promoting urban sprawl with large houses and without alternates modes of transport, in turn resulting in more energy consumption and fuel use.

[NHAero]

We agree.
The only source of optimism I have personally is that I believe that deep down, almost all people want the same fundamental things. Sufficient physical/material inputs to maintain a healthy life (healthy food and shelter, clean water and air), access to good healthcare and education, safety/security from lawlessness and exploitation, and a sense that their lives are meaningful. (an extraordinary VR exhibit called The Enemy I saw a couple of years ago at MIT made this clear). What I hope for is that we all see that without massive changes in policies and practices on energy and food, and reductions in consumption, we are headed for a world where fewer of us will enjoy those fundamentals.


Good points. Consumers are to blame to a large degree, but it doesn't help when you have politicians making bad policies. An example is promoting urban sprawl with large houses and without alternates modes of transport, in turn resulting in more energy consumption and fuel use.

[Big Dan]

Except many/most ‘deniers’, lacking any real ideology, deny because it either lines their pockets or keeps them in ‘the big chair’...

Don't agree on Campagnolo vs Shimano, but agree on this.
I think its all about the cash.
Pretty selfish.

[andrew+]

We agree.
The only source of optimism I have personally is that I believe that deep down, almost all people want the same fundamental things. Sufficient physical/material inputs to maintain a healthy life (healthy food and shelter, clean water and air), access to good healthcare and education, safety/security from lawlessness and exploitation, and a sense that their lives are meaningful. (an extraordinary VR exhibit called The Enemy I saw a couple of years ago at MIT made this clear). What I hope for is that we all see that without massive changes in policies and practices on energy and food, and reductions in consumption, we are headed for a world where fewer of us will enjoy those fundamentals.

Right. This is why you should rethink your blame for "consumers." The demand for McMansions and suburban sprawl doesn't spring from their "deep down fundamental" desires. That demand is constructed, their desires are created from outside of them, just like our demand for 13 speed will be.

The group stoking that demand is the same one that loves shifting blame to "consumers."

[93KgBike]

We get outraged over these callous, thoughtless self absorbed drivers that put our lives in danger. Why aren't we just as outraged by our callous, thoughtless self absorbed politicians who show nothing but disdain for the lives of the rest of us?

We are them and they are we. We all drive cars etc., which makes we the problem. Especially when we are them!

Good points. Consumers are to blame to a large degree, but it doesn't help when you have politicians making bad policies. An example is promoting urban sprawl with large houses and without alternates modes of transport, in turn resulting in more energy consumption and fuel use.

Those housing policies were the state/corporate response to desegregation. People voted for those changes to keep communities segregated by color. The 'burbs of Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, OKC, Atlanta - they're all white. And you can't get there (and get around) unless you drive. That is by design. And when you ride a bike through those cities, today, they are balkanized by skin-color and then ethnicity. You can see it. You can hear it.

So what has that got to do with climate change? And if it is a policy that succeeded as designed, can the sequelae of its failures be addressed as tangents?

[Irishgirl]

This has been an interesting thread for a variety reasons...and some of which gets discussed at the dinner table with my kids.

My oldest I referenced in an earlier post within this thread was home from school this weekend (high school senior).

We spent some time discussing the points made within this thread and sharing her thoughts....

The first statement she made to my opened question about her thoughts on the status of the environment was

“We are a part of the environment not above the environment”

She went on to clarify that generations before her have acted irresponsibly and she holds the belief

“That the earth is a resource to be used and many continue to hold this perception which is reckless”

She strongly expressed that corporations could make more responsible decisions and play a more impactful role. One idea was to take conveniences (such as the use of plastic bag) out of the decision of the consumer because when the public is given the option they are going to make decisions that are most convenient unless the individual is environmentally aware.

She said her generation is more malleable and spotlights can be polarizing....individual voices will be whispers...collectively it’s a louder roar.

She’s sad those with stronger voices aren’t protecting...she also expressed her generation and maybe the one ahead of hers are getting their turn with “the talking stick” and this will have an impact.

We worked together today identifying what we could do individually, as a family unit and within our the other circles we are a part of.

We wrapped up with this question “mommy did you say this was a thread in a cycling forum...why aren’t they out on their bikes?”...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fa63]

Some of us drive cars way less than others. And I live in one of those suburbs of Atlanta (and they are no longer all white but that is a different story).

The urban sprawl I was referring to is more the modern kind. The idea of buying a house "outside" the city so that you have more space/buy a bigger house (whether you really need it or not). A lot of that is driven by bad policy. Not solely of course; it is also driven by marketing, consumerism, market forces, etc.

I also realize that sometimes, even policies with the best of intentions at the time of their conception can turn out to be turds in the long run. It is admittedly easier to play armchair quarterback. But it is also disheartening when we don't seem to be learning from our mistakes.

We are them and they are we. We all drive cars etc., which makes we the problem. Especially when we are them!

Those housing policies were the state/corporate response to desegregation. People voted for those changes to keep communities segregated by color. The 'burbs of Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, OKC, Atlanta - they're all white. And you can't get there (and get around) unless you drive. That is by design. And when you ride a bike through those cities, today, they are balkanized by skin-color and then ethnicity. You can see it. You can hear it.

So what has that got to do with climate change? And if it is a policy that succeeded as designed, can the sequelae of its failures be addressed as tangents?

[NHAero]

We don't disagree here about demand being constructed. Yet, I think as a human I have a responsibility to myself to examine how I am affected/persuaded/cajoled to want what doesn't serve my real needs.

One of my all-time favorite quotes from Thoreau:
“A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone.” (and yes, I know he wasn't roughing it in the wilderness...)

Do I have a moment of wanting when I read one of the OT car threads here and see the Porsches and similar that some of our better-heeled forumites enjoy? Yup. Yet on reflection I'm not willing to trade how my life is for more disposable cash to own more things. Could I make further trade-offs, living even lower on the expenditure ladder to increase quality of life? Maybe. I'm not setting myself up here as a paragon, I do have friends with noticeably lower impact lives that I do admire. Some don't own 10 bikes, as I do :-)

Right. This is why you should rethink your blame for "consumers." The demand for McMansions and suburban sprawl doesn't spring from their "deep down fundamental" desires. That demand is constructed, their desires are created from outside of them, just like our demand for 13 speed will be.

The group stoking that demand is the same one that loves shifting blame to "consumers."

[AngryScientist]

This thread is proving to be an excellent example of the intelligent, articulate people who assemble and hang out here. I am often humbled reading through threads like this to realize and appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and willingness to participate.

conversation is certainly an art, and conversing with a wide group of people who may not all agree is a practiced, learned skill. This topic certainly has deep partisan political components, but you guys have kept it mostly above board here and i appreciate that, and the ability to keep the conversation alive here. i think it is a hugely important conversation to have, and and getting comfortable talking about it among people who dont all see eye to eye is also important.

on topic: everything is tied together in our global ecosystem, and i personally think one of the next biggest crisis to strike humanity may very well be our atmosphere which we breath every day. i recently watched an excellent documentary detailing just how oxygen gets back into our atmosphere, and it is certainly MUCH more complex than i had given that cycle credit for. the simplistic understanding that plants and forests generate oxygen and scrub the air we breathe is only scratching the surface of reality.

what struck me is how fine a balance the complex cycle of keeping our air the perfect balance to support life as we know it is and how remarkably resilient it has been for so many years. i find it hard to believe if we continue to push a strained system harder and harder we are going to screw something up that may throw us catastrophically out of balance.

[Jef58]

Except that there are no "believers" in this topic. There are deniers (those who refuse to accept what has scientific consensus) and those who accept scientific consensus and the scientific process.

The Earth isn't flat my friend. But it's not "round" either at least not perfectly. It's a oblate ellipsoid. But I can tell you an oblate ellipsoid is much, much closer to "round" than it ever will be to flat.

Science is not a consensus, it is either fact or unproven theory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a clean environment but I do question the motives of political and governing bodies who lecture me on how to live my life without exploring scientific facts. NASA noticed that there was a shift in the Earth's wobble through satellite monitoring. This slight shift will change where the sun hits strongest on the Earth and cause shifts in weather patterns and climate. They also noticed that the Antartica was actually growing. None of this will ever be considered in any climate argument because it doesn't fit an agenda...but are facts that should be discussed.

There have been marine fossils found in the Sahara, so that means that it was under water at one time. I doubt this was a human cause. I drive a hybrid car and try to watch my carbon footprint, but changing patterns of the Sun, Moon and our own Earth have an impact of change that we as humans cannot change. So when me or anyone else questions the motives of an emotional knee-jerk reaction by politicians, Hollywood actors and self serving businesses, does not make a "climate denier" just someone who knows the Earth changes and has changed for millions of years...with or without us.

[fa63]

No self-respecting climate scientists would disregard the role of natural forcing in climate change. At least I am yet to meet one. I also don't know why people think that they do.

It is just that the data is quite clear in showing recent temperature increase is anthropogenic (i.e. due to human activities), above and beyond what can be attributed to natural forcing...

With regard to consensus, there was an article I ran into recently which discussed the dangers of seeking consensus in science. For climate change, it usually means those whose predictions vary significantly from the mean tend to be viewed with extreme skepticism, even if their models are sound. Now before anyone says "this is discrimination against scientists whose work shows there is no anthropogenic climate change", I should point out that it pretty much always tends to go the other direction; that is, scientists who predict far more dire outcomes due to the climate change are more affected than their counterparts.

All that said, thank you driving your hybrid car and watching your carbon footprint, and not execerbating the problem :)

Science is not a consensus, it is either fact or unproven theory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a clean environment but I do question the motives of political and governing bodies who lecture me on how to live my life without exploring scientific facts. NASA noticed that there was a shift in the Earth's wobble through satellite monitoring. This slight shift will change where the sun hits strongest on the Earth and cause shifts in weather patterns and climate. They also noticed that the Antartica was actually growing. None of this will ever be considered in any climate argument because it doesn't fit an agenda...but are facts that should be discussed.

There have been marine fossils found in the Sahara, so that means that it was under water at one time. I doubt this was a human cause. I drive a hybrid car and try to watch my carbon footprint, but changing patterns of the Sun, Moon and our own Earth have an impact of change that we as humans cannot change. So when me or anyone else questions the motives of an emotional knee-jerk reaction by politicians, Hollywood actors and self serving businesses, does not make a "climate denier" just someone who knows the Earth changes and has changed for millions of years...with or without us.

[Big Dan]

Can't believe this guy lives in Florida of all places......


Everything is fine down here, nothing to see.......

[Llewellyn]

We agree.
The only source of optimism I have personally is that I believe that deep down, almost all people want the same fundamental things. Sufficient physical/material inputs to maintain a healthy life (healthy food and shelter, clean water and air), access to good healthcare and education, safety/security from lawlessness and exploitation, and a sense that their lives are meaningful. (an extraordinary VR exhibit called The Enemy I saw a couple of years ago at MIT made this clear). What I hope for is that we all see that without massive changes in policies and practices on energy and food, and reductions in consumption, we are headed for a world where fewer of us will enjoy those fundamentals.

I wish I could be as optimistic but as I've commented in a different thread before - I think most people agree with the idea of lifestyle changes needing to be made........as long as it's not them that have to make those changes. Personally I think the earth will be uninhabitable by humans in less than 200 years.

[shinomaster]

I really hope this kid can inspire more than just the youth. She's amazing: https://www.ted.com/talks/greta_thunberg_the_disarming_case_to_act_right_now _on_climate?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tedspread&fbclid=IwAR1sKcGDXKU4oItDK7orkUs7quSXL78lnj3TrSW0K n5zVErkNRmBRmVTyBc

[weaponsgrade]

I feel a tinge of guilt every time I pull off some saran wrap to cover leftovers, use a ziplock bag, get in my car (when I know I could ride a bike), grab a plastic bag at the grocery store, or eat meat. I'm by no means a vegetarian, but I've been trying to dedicate at least one day a week to preparing only vegetarian dishes and limiting beef to no more than once every two weeks.

[shinomaster]

I feel a tinge of guilt every time I pull off some saran wrap to cover leftovers, use a ziplock bag, get in my car (when I know I could ride a bike), grab a plastic bag at the grocery store, or eat meat. I'm by no means a vegetarian, but I've been trying to dedicate at least one day a week to preparing only vegetarian dishes and limiting beef to no more than once every two weeks.

I quit buying saran wrap... buy some reusable glass containers, or recycle lunch to-go containers, they work great.

[andrew+]

We don't need you to make individual lifestyle changes, we don't need you to feel guilty. We need you to support comprehensive federal climate policy which changes the rules of the game we're all caught up in.

No amount of individual consumer or lifestyle choices, aggregated up, will solve climate change.

[shinomaster]

We don't need you to make individual lifestyle changes, we don't need you to feel guilty. We need you to support comprehensive federal climate policy which changes the rules of the game we're all caught up in.

No amount of individual consumer or lifestyle choices, aggregated up, will solve climate change.

This is true. Washington needs to be rid of special interest groups and fossil fuel lobbies.

[shinomaster]

Although, If enough consumers around the world changed their shopping habits it would eventually change politics and the world. When people stop spending $$$, corporations listen.

[fa63]

I am not a fan of the "individual actions can't solve this" attitude. We can lead by example, and every little bit helps. Here are some simple things that require little to no money and some minor inconvenience:

- Use less water: water has embodied energy (to clean, distribute, etc.); take shorter showers (or buy lower flow fixtures, but that costs money, whereas shorter showers are free)
- Switch all your light bulbs to LEDs: costs have come way down, plus they last much longer
- Buy a smart thermostat (they are pretty cheap now), and bump your thermostat up (or down) by a degree of two. It will be slightly uncomfortable at first but the body adjusts. If you are too hot while sleeping, buy a personal fan.
- Recycling: it takes far, far less energy to produce plastics/aluminum/paper using recycled materials than it takes using virgin materials.
- Eat less meat (it has already been mentioned)
- Ride your bike/walk more: this goes without saying, especially here :) ~40% of all vehicle trips in the US are under 3 miles. Replacing 1 or 2 out of 10 trips with bikes (or walking if it is under a mile or so) can make a significant difference.

[makoti]

I feel a tinge of guilt every time I pull off some saran wrap to cover leftovers, use a ziplock bag, get in my car (when I know I could ride a bike), grab a plastic bag at the grocery store, or eat meat. I'm by no means a vegetarian, but I've been trying to dedicate at least one day a week to preparing only vegetarian dishes and limiting beef to no more than once every two weeks.

And this is what should be happening. No one expects (or, no one should) us to all be perfect. But it doesn't do much good if 1% of the world is perfect at not using plastic, not eating meat, etc. We need 75-90% of the world doing better at it. Use LESS, reuse MORE, recycle what you can, and try to do a bit more tomorrow. It's the only hope we've got, because we're never going to get more than a smattering of people to do it right all the time.

[CunegoFan]

We don't need you to make individual lifestyle changes, we don't need you to feel guilty. We need you to support comprehensive federal climate policy which changes the rules of the game we're all caught up in.

No amount of individual consumer or lifestyle choices, aggregated up, will solve climate change.

I would say, "Whoah, everyone hold on to your wallets," but we all know more important policies will take priority, policies like fining businesses for giving out drinking straws so the law will appease hipsters with their annual iPhone purchase in one hand and in the other, one of their twice daily Starbucks orders in a disposable cup with a disposable cardboard sleeve and a disposable plastic top.

I would like to hear more about these comprehensive federal climate policies you envision. Could you express them in five year plans?

[andrew+]

I would say, "Whoah, everyone hold on to your wallets," but we all know more important policies will take priority, policies like fining businesses for giving out drinking straws so the law will appease hipsters with their annual iPhone purchase in one hand and in the other, one of their twice daily Starbucks orders in a disposable cup with a disposable cardboard sleeve and a disposable plastic top.

I would like to hear more about these comprehensive federal climate policies you envision. Could you express them in five year plans?

One thing that makes democratic politics workable is that you don't have to convince everyone in order for big changes to happen. You've demonstrated very clearly through your posts that you are one of those people.

For others, the Green New Deal is the only serious outline I've read. It's basically a green industrial program that recognizes that basic social welfare programs are also needed to insulate people from the major shocks (e.g., job losses) that a rapid shift away from fossil fuels would entail.

A major carbon tax could also work, but is much less politically feasible, in my opinion.

[Kirk007]

This has been an interesting thread for a variety reasons...and some of which gets discussed at the dinner table with my kids.

My oldest I referenced in an earlier post within this thread was home from school this weekend (high school senior).

We spent some time discussing the points made within this thread and sharing her thoughts....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Smart kid. Kudos to you!

[CunegoFan]

For others, the Green New Deal is the only serious outline I've read. It's basically a green industrial program that recognizes that basic social welfare programs are also needed to insulate people from the major shocks (e.g., job losses) that a rapid shift away from fossil fuels would entail.


Cost $93 trillion.
By AOC's own admission: 40 - 50% of GDP as opposed to the 21% the government currently spends.

I didn't see anything in there like empowering industry to build 200 fourth generation nuclear power plants or beginning to reprocess spent nuclear fuel or maybe $50 billion a year for nuclear fusion research. I guess there wouldn't be enough money after the planned handouts to those "unwilling to work."

The green new deal is a perfect example of why people oppose climate solutions and climate science. It is pushing a political agenda under the guise of being green. It's leftist social engineering that has nothing to do with climate.

[redir]

Just divorce yourself from having to look to a political party or movement for identification, and you can support the truth wherever it appears, live your individual values, etc.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I will always be Independant. Never have truer words been said and said a long long time ago predicting what we are in today then:

"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

FAREWELL ADDRESS | SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 1796

[redir]

The moment someone mentions the very large elephant in the room, people start crying racism because the increase is mostly coming from Africa. The problem is too many people. Not addressing it is trying to solve a large problem by fixing up a few corner cases. It's why you cannot take any of this virtue signalling seriously.

It's the same with phony environmentalist who claim they want to protect the USA's wild places yet have allied themselves with party's who refuse to do anything about illegal immigration. Overuse and encroachment is the problem, not too few protected areas.

This is an interesting problem that immigration would greatly help. And many immigrants are migrating away from places that are affected due to climate change.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-japan-economy-aging-population/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business

[gemship]

Interesting thread, more ineresting that it hasn't been closed yet. But I guess since you're all wicked smaht and kept it civil the mods give the gift of more gab. LOL.

So I just lived another day in my life that day. At the end of the day I turned on my computer and read about the world wide demonstrations going on. That's how I found out about it. I guess I pretty much live under a rock. LOL. But seriously how would you know enough to join in the fun? What do all these people do rally on twitter or something like that? They kinda got they're own little click don't they?

[sipmeister]

Actually, what is racist is to blame the world's future problems on the future Africans, who have had nothing to do with the situation that non-Africans have put the world in.

The same concept applies to the US telling China and India to curb their emissions: it was OK for us to pollute all these years (and continue to do so at a high rate) while achieving economic prosperity, but it is not OK for them to do the same. Do as I say, not as I do; what a priviliged position...

The US contributed during the Industrial Revolutions, during which time coal was king. Solar and wind weren't available as power options at that time. China and India however, still continue to use coal and build more coal plants. Sure, the US uses coal too as it switches some plants to NG, but not to the same degree that China does. Are you indicating since the US had its heyday with coal, we need to let China and India do the same?

[Gummee]

the concept and term "virtue signalling" is so American, can we leave that one behind next year and just be real about things?

What else would you call posturing without substance to show how green/pro-whatever/etc you are?

M

[Mzilliox]

What else would you call posturing without substance to show how green/pro-whatever/etc you are?

M

being human like everyone else? this is a thing humans do. what has this to do with being green? what is being green anyway?

if its virtuous, why arent you cats doing it?

m glad it appears the majority are sane. its shocking to me there are still folks all bent out of shape on a lefistist social agenda an the such... its just a different way to approach problems we have never had before. should we use the same approach for new problems? probably not.

if "socialist lefty agenda" is what WE end up wanting and voting for, then so be it, this so called righty crap isnt exactly amazing, its sort of killing things fast and gives all priority to money, not life. i can see why so many are into it, since we worship money here.

[Kirk007]

What else would you call posturing without substance to show how green/pro-whatever/etc you are?
.
M

Never heard this term until this thread. Looked it up on the internet. This blog seems to capture well all that is wrong, ATMO, with the term: https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling.

Here's a another one: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/people-who-accuse-others-virtue-signalling-are-trying-stigmatise-empathy

What else you gonna say in response to people's positions . How about something substantive rather than a deflecting perjorative.

[Mzilliox]

We don't need you to make individual lifestyle changes, we don't need you to feel guilty. We need you to support comprehensive federal climate policy which changes the rules of the game we're all caught up in.

No amount of individual consumer or lifestyle choices, aggregated up, will solve climate change.

here here,
but by behaving these ways you show change actually is possible, perhaps allowing the needle to move a little sooner.

we over consume here, its habit, like poor diets and smoking. once you change the habit, going back to normal feels dirty and toxic.

we can do better, but people need to stop feeling like this is personal, and people shouldnt get so angry that there is a movement aimed at helping people. i mean that cat in here gets downright angry about the attempts of some to try and figure out a way to navigate what is a new world of pollution, AI, corporate control, and numbed humans on screens. this is not the world of Eisenhower or Lincoln, or even Trump. the world has moved well beyond them.

this is the world of the Greta Thunbergs, the Jacinda Arderns, and im ready for it to happen.

[NHAero]

Both well-written reads.
"Trying to stigmatize empathy"
Perfect

Never heard this term until this thread. Looked it up on the internet. This blog seems to capture well all that is wrong, ATMO, with the term: https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling.

Here's a another one: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/people-who-accuse-others-virtue-signalling-are-trying-stigmatise-empathy

What else you gonna say in response to people's positions . How about something substantive rather than a deflecting perjorative.

[Gummee]

Never heard this term until this thread. Looked it up on the internet. This blog seems to capture well all that is wrong, ATMO, with the term: https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling.

Here's a another one: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/people-who-accuse-others-virtue-signalling-are-trying-stigmatise-empathy

What else you gonna say in response to people's positions . How about something substantive rather than a deflecting perjorative.

All right substance: How exactly is shutting a website and design facility down changing the environment? SBC doesn't make squat in Morgan Hill. Lived there. All they do in Morgan Hill is design, marketing, and other administrative duties.

Now, if they'd shut the FACTORIES in China and the east down, THAT maybe would have been substantive.

Maybe

Otherwise? It's an empty gesture. aka virtue signaling.

M

[Climb01742]

Feels odd defending Specialized, so I'll make a point more broadly...

Granted closing an office Friday is not a huge step, but even small steps are helpful. It helped bring a little extra awareness to the demonstrations Friday, and maybe more importantly...by closing the office on Friday, any business relieved their employees of having to choose between not coming to work (and maybe angering their boss) and doing a little something for the climate.

Kind of a no lose deal, yes? If you wanted to demonstrate/protest, your company helped. If you didn't, free day off. All while adding a bit of awareness.

Not saying anyone was noble. Just helpful.

[Spdntrxi]

All right substance: How exactly is shutting a website and design facility down changing the environment? SBC doesn't make squat in Morgan Hill. Lived there. All they do in Morgan Hill is design, marketing, and other administrative duties.

Now, if they'd shut the FACTORIES in China and the east down, THAT maybe would have been substantive.

Maybe

Otherwise? It's an empty gesture. aka virtue signaling.

M

exactly ! glad to see someone else gets it too.

[NHAero]

We closed our operation Friday afternoon. Paid time. Employees encouraged to participate in any of the varied climate actions, but no requirement. We're a 35 person design/build company.

Most interesting for me was an 8 acre regenerative agriculture pilot and a large scale composting pilot at a local farm. Farmer with 40 years experience was getting burned out, but has a whole new batch of fire in his belly over this. Says large farms are trying this too, because it may be more cost effective, not because of environmental concerns.


Feels odd defending Specialized, so I'll make a point more broadly...

Granted closing an office Friday is not a huge step, but even small steps are helpful. It helped bring a little extra awareness to the demonstrations Friday, and maybe more importantly...by closing the office on Friday, any business relieved their employees of having to choose between not coming to work (and maybe angering their boss) and doing a little something for the climate.

Kind of a no lose deal, yes? If you wanted to demonstrate/protest, your company helped. If you didn't, free day off. All while adding a bit of awareness.

Not saying anyone was noble. Just helpful.

[Mzilliox]

exactly ! glad to see someone else gets it too.

wait, what are you guys pretending to get? motives for what other people do? well alright... carry on.

[Spdntrxi]

wait, what are you guys pretending to get? motives for what other people do? well alright... carry on.

are you not reading the post quoted ?

you obviously dont get it... and pretend not too. ?

[Gsinill]

What else would you call posturing without substance to show how green/pro-whatever/etc you are?

M

Like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/gJKdygkv/GT-then-and-now.png
(whole article here: 2 striking photos taken just over a year apart show how Greta Thunberg's climate strike inspired millions (https://www.businessinsider.com/2-photos-show-how-greta-thunbergs-climate-strike-inspired-millions-2019-9))

The mere fact that VS "...was posturing without substance" led to 9 pages of constructive discussion here.

[fa63]

The US contributed during the Industrial Revolutions, during which time coal was king. Solar and wind weren't available as power options at that time. China and India however, still continue to use coal and build more coal plants. Sure, the US uses coal too as it switches some plants to NG, but not to the same degree that China does. Are you indicating since the US had its heyday with coal, we need to let China and India do the same?No, I am suggesting that we lead by example. It doesn't make sense to tell China and India to cut their coal use while we continue to use it heavily (I realize market forces have been pushing coal out some, but we still use a lot).

[Mzilliox]

are you not reading the post quoted ?

you obviously dont get it... and pretend not too. ?

I am pretending nothing at all. you guys are saying you get something that you dont know anything about. you dont know what folks did behind closed doors after they closed their doors. you make assumptions that "they" did nothing but close their doors, and that closing their doors for a day had no meaning. yet if you care about something enough to not make money for a day, is there not some substance in that? if you support the movement you are doing something. Maybe they took the day off and planted trees or cleaned a riverbank. maybe they worked on local policy.

the thing is you guys are making assumptions on what other people are actually doing, thinking and acting. you are "getting it" whatever you think there is to get. i mean really, whos posturing at this point?

oh look, people are trying to make change, but its a bunch of crap, all mirrors and smoke, and we "get it". again, carry on. maybe one day ill get it too.

[Big Dan]

^
Some are just trying to justify doing nothing.

[livingminimal]

I am pretending nothing at all. you guys are saying you get something that you dont know anything about. you dont know what folks did behind closed doors after they closed their doors. you make assumptions that "they" did nothing but close their doors, and that closing their doors for a day had no meaning. yet if you care about something enough to not make money for a day, is there not some substance in that? if you support the movement you are doing something. Maybe they took the day off and planted trees or cleaned a riverbank. maybe they worked on local policy.

the thing is you guys are making assumptions on what other people are actually doing, thinking and acting. you are "getting it" whatever you think there is to get. i mean really, whos posturing at this point?

oh look, people are trying to make change, but its a bunch of crap, all mirrors and smoke, and we "get it". again, carry on. maybe one day ill get it too.



Best post!

[Spdntrxi]

I am pretending nothing at all. you guys are saying you get something that you dont know anything about. you dont know what folks did behind closed doors after they closed their doors. you make assumptions that "they" did nothing but close their doors, and that closing their doors for a day had no meaning. yet if you care about something enough to not make money for a day, is there not some substance in that? if you support the movement you are doing something. Maybe they took the day off and planted trees or cleaned a riverbank. maybe they worked on local policy.

the thing is you guys are making assumptions on what other people are actually doing, thinking and acting. you are "getting it" whatever you think there is to get. i mean really, whos posturing at this point?

oh look, people are trying to make change, but its a bunch of crap, all mirrors and smoke, and we "get it". again, carry on. maybe one day ill get it too.

you are postering... doing/typing/saying whatever saying others and I are making assumptions.. WTH do you think you are doing ?

done with you.

[CunegoFan]

Never heard this term until this thread. Looked it up on the internet. This blog seems to capture well all that is wrong, ATMO, with the term: https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling.

Here's a another one: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/people-who-accuse-others-virtue-signalling-are-trying-stigmatise-empathy

What else you gonna say in response to people's positions . How about something substantive rather than a deflecting perjorative.

There is some irony right there: Complaining about the term virtue signaling while calling for a substantive response instead.

The world would be better off if those doing the signaling did something substantive instead of making empty gestures

[tuscanyswe]

Omg some ppl here.

[MikeD]

Plant a LOT more trees. The cheapest and best way to combat climate change.


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[William]

Plant a LOT more trees. The cheapest and best way to combat climate change.


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Man, I can't even begin to tell you how many trees I planted when I was at OSU. They may get harvested one day but in the meantime they are producing fresh oxygen, providing habitat, and anchoring soil.








W.

[2LeftCleats]

What a great and timely conversation! I’ve got no new ground to break within the articulate comments already presented.

I get that there is controversy about the degree/rapidity of climate change, but find it astonishing and tragic that there is argument that humans have any involvement in its cause.

The best case scenarios are awful. Not just increasingly intolerable weather, but disease, crop failure, uninhabitable regions, social upheaval, and war. The rate of change appears to be accelerating, meaning that our ability to adapt will be severely tested.

This problem is so immense that it’s easy to feel overwhelmed and impotent in our ability to respond. It’s inspiring to see our young people being gutsier than we are, just as they have been with other issues like school shootings. And no wonder: these are existential threats to them. Us older folks will die soon—we won’t suffer the consequences as they will.

I have been ambivalent whether any virtuous action I take does anything other than make me feel virtuous. But I have become more convinced that acknowledging responsibility for my own contributions and adjusting my actions accordingly can be part of a groundswell influencing the changes our world community must make. Those actions include selecting better leadership. It’s clear that the incestuous relationship between government and industry has to be dissolved and that while capitalism has some positive features, unfettered capitalism puts us all at risk.

[makoti]

exactly ! glad to see someone else gets it too.

Sounds like you guys are...virtue signalling. Look at us. We get it.

[Spdntrxi]

Sounds like you guys are...virtue signalling. Look at us. We get it.

sure whatever you wanna think

[livingminimal]

sure whatever you wanna think

Lol

[Bruce K]

Feels like this has run it’s course if we are getting personal.

If it continues this way or just gets repetitive, we’ll move on.

BK

[oldpotatoe]

What a great and timely conversation! I’ve got no new ground to break within the articulate comments already presented.

I get that there is controversy about the degree/rapidity of climate change, but find it astonishing and tragic that there is argument that humans have any involvement in its cause.

The best case scenarios are awful. Not just increasingly intolerable weather, but disease, crop failure, uninhabitable regions, social upheaval, and war. The rate of change appears to be accelerating, meaning that our ability to adapt will be severely tested.

This problem is so immense that it’s easy to feel overwhelmed and impotent in our ability to respond. It’s inspiring to see our young people being gutsier than we are, just as they have been with other issues like school shootings. And no wonder: these are existential threats to them. Us older folks will die soon—we won’t suffer the consequences as they will.

I have been ambivalent whether any virtuous action I take does anything other than make me feel virtuous. But I have become more convinced that acknowledging responsibility for my own contributions and adjusting my actions accordingly can be part of a groundswell influencing the changes our world community must make. Those actions include selecting better leadership. It’s clear that the incestuous relationship between government and industry has to be dissolved and that while capitalism has some positive features, unfettered capitalism puts us all at risk.

There will be lots of demonstrations and lots of yelling back and forth and perhaps it will translate into election results in Nov 2020 BUT..nothing will really get 'done' until people are forced, as in some world wide crisis..My $ is on a pandemic...caused by poor living conditions made worse by climate change..that spreads to places like the US, Asia, Europe..it may also spurn armed conflicts, another real problem as the 'big boys' not only arm themselves to the teeth but spout about how great and YUGE 'their' military is or how the US is 'NUMBER 1' in fossil fuel production..as if that's any kind of 'answer(yes to those who value more billion$)...Tough times up ahead for my grand daughters regardless...

[Irishgirl]

There will be lots of demonstrations and lots of yelling back and forth and perhaps it will translate into election results in Nov 2020 BUT..nothing will really get 'done' until people are forced, as in some world wide crisis.....


Agree...AND my teenage daughters have this topic occupying their thoughts.

This thread has many weighing in on this topic....my question is simple

As individuals. What do we have to lose by being more mindful in our opportunities to make better decisions to help the environment?

This weekend we took action...we discussed what we are currently doing and what changes we could make. We immediately started to implement these decisions. We also left it open to add more ways to make improvements and to even modify our decisions for better options.

Thank you to the original poster for starting this thread as the discussion may have infected other discussions outside of this forum...it definitely did for me.




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[bicycletricycle]

Does anybody else find the media attention around Greta a bit creepy? I remember being uncomfortable in church when the "faith" of children was put up on a pedestal, seemed a bit exploitative and it was clearly emotionally manipulative.

My feelings here are agnostic of her message. I just get creeped out by adults using children to front their ideas.

[tuscanyswe]

Does anybody else find the media attention around Greta a bit creepy? I remember being uncomfortable in church when the "faith" of children was put up on a pedestal, seemed a bit exploitative and it was clearly emotionally manipulative.

My feelings here are agnostic of her message. I just get creeped out by adults using children to front their ideas.

This is all her tho? She is the one who started this her parents are not involved other than im sure they also care about the enviroment and their daughter like most other do.

I think its great she gets so much media attention. An adult would never have been able to attract the same publicity and never the same following. Kids today here and in a lot of places are growing up caring and thinking about the nature and climate. They would not have if not for her and i dont think they would have felt nearly the same nor strong if it was an adult trying to convey the same message.

[bicycletricycle]

Well, I would just recommend the same situation but with an issue your really disagree with. Would you feel the same way?

This is all her tho? She is the one who started this her parents are not involved other than im sure they also care about the enviroment and their daughter like most other do.

I think its great she gets so much media attention. An adult would never have been able to attract the same publicity and never the same following. Kids today here and in a lot of places are growing up caring and thinking about the nature and climate. They would not have if not for her and i dont think they would have felt nearly the same nor strong if it was an adult trying to convey the same message.

[ftf]

There will be lots of demonstrations and lots of yelling back and forth and perhaps it will translate into election results in Nov 2020 BUT..nothing will really get 'done' until people are forced, as in some world wide crisis..My $ is on a pandemic...caused by poor living conditions made worse by climate change..that spreads to places like the US, Asia, Europe..it may also spurn armed conflicts, another real problem as the 'big boys' not only arm themselves to the teeth but spout about how great and YUGE 'their' military is or how the US is 'NUMBER 1' in fossil fuel production..as if that's any kind of 'answer(yes to those who value more billion$)...Tough times up ahead for my grand daughters regardless...

We are already in a world wide crisis. Some people don't care, benefit from it, are blind to it etc. 1/4 birds gone since the 1970s, barrier reef in serious decline, the amazon is pretty much gone, and a huge increase in extreme weather, countless species extinct, the list is becoming longer and longer. the earth is already suffering, and the suffering has just begun.

[Mzilliox]

There is some irony right there: Complaining about the term virtue signaling while calling for a substantive response instead.

The world would be better off if those doing the signaling did something substantive instead of making empty gestures

The world would also be better if people didnt make assumptions that other people are not doing anything. Mr Kirk pulls out thoughtful response after thoughtful response and you follow up with a personal attack? classy, crassy! empty gestures? Mr Kirk offers thought in his posts, lots of it. then you come in suggesting a lack of substance. irony much?


so what makes you think folks aren't doing anything substantial? projections? personal experience? ignorance? naivete? general jadedness? just feel like it?

im curious how you guys get so much while knowing so little about that which you get. what are you trying to prove, and to who?

[tuscanyswe]

Well, I would just recommend the same situation but with an issue your really disagree with. Would you feel the same way?

Im not sure i follow.

Thought you were talking about weather or not grown ups were using her in this case in ways similar to showing kids at church. And my response was that this is not the case with Greta. She started this because she believes in this. She has been sitting in stockholm streets doing "school strike for the climate" long before this got massmedia attention i know because i ride in these same streets.. She is using anyone else as much as anyone else is using her. She is getting her story out there.

Wether or not i agree with the story or the objective does not change that this is something that stems from her? So i must say that yes i would feel the same way about her beeing used or not regardless if i agreed with the objective or not.

[Mzilliox]

Does anybody else find the media attention around Greta a bit creepy? I remember being uncomfortable in church when the "faith" of children was put up on a pedestal, seemed a bit exploitative and it was clearly emotionally manipulative.

My feelings here are agnostic of her message. I just get creeped out by adults using children to front their ideas.

maybe they are her ideas, not some "adults". maybe they are the only thing she knows how to do in this world full of bull****. Ive heard shes got some form of autism, or Asperger, or who knows. But if this is the case, her single mindedness is explained to some degree. she literally has no capacity for the nonsense and lies and side speak. She knows how to be blunt and tell the truth. its not an agenda, its a knowledge deep down that we are making mistakes in the human experience than can and should be corrected, if only there wasnt so much BS floating around to navigate. if only more people could remove the BS fomr their view and see the problem clearly for what it really is, an attack on life that continues despite the knowledge we are killing ourselves. its not shocking, people still smoke and drink soda too, a sure way to reduce your life.

[Mzilliox]

We are already in a world wide crisis. Some people don't care, benefit from it, are blind to it etc. 1/4 birds gone since the 1970s, barrier reef in serious decline, the amazon is pretty much gone, and a huge increase in extreme weather, countless species extinct, the list is becoming longer and longer. the earth is already suffering, and the suffering has just begun.

Eff birds and animals and reefs and clean stuff, what have they ever done for me? we need less regulations so corporations arent hurt, duh. i mean what if the imaginary entity with humans rights we call "corporations" started to suffer because we decide that we actually need these things to be functioning so we can live? how can you just let those poor corporations suffer so much, its not like they are simple constructs of our imagination, they have rights man! humans like stuff too much and are proud of the stuff they make too much. natures been doing a better job of it for years, so we try our best to destroy that. FFS, this is something some people think i guess...

[CunegoFan]

The world would also be better if people didnt make assumptions that other people are not doing anything. Mr Kirk pulls out thoughtful response after thoughtful response and you follow up with a personal attack? classy, crassy! empty gestures? Mr Kirk offers thought in his posts, lots of it. then you come in suggesting a lack of substance. irony much?


If you think that was a personal attack then you should probably snowflake off to your safe space.

[AngryScientist]

If you think that was a personal attack then you should probably snowflake off to your safe space.

as i mentioned previously here, some people raise the level of conversation with thoughtful, insightful yet polite input, and others just drag the level of discourse down.

this was a great conversation, but it has run it's course now and the above typed nonsense creep in.

thank you for all who participated in a meaningful and appropriate manner.