Carbon failure at Tour du Doubs sprint

[Veloo]

Speaking of unexpected, catastrophic carbon failure...

Believe his name is Simon Pellaud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=XiQLizWRj1I

[tv_vt]

Snapped fork steerer tube from the looks of it. Yikes.

[benb]

That really looked like it happened up by the stem... makes me wonder if there was something weird going on like a stem that didn't fit right and was pinching the tube, or a headset cap not installed to spec.

From the description I was expecting to see a video of it failing down by the fork crown. Super scary either way!

[kgreene10]

I could be mistaken, but didn’t a Trek service bulletin tell shops/consumers to add a 5mm spacer under the stem because of similar failures? No ill will toward Trek intended if I’m wrong about that.

[tctyres]

Looking at that frame by frame, timing wise, it happens at the first zebra stripe crosswalk in the background. He's basically trying to keep it upright after he leans into the bars for the first time.

My reaction was the same as the audience, "Oooo ...":eek::(:eek:

[benb]

I could be mistaken, but didn’t a Trek service bulletin tell shops/consumers to add a 5mm spacer under the stem because of similar failures? No ill will toward Trek intended if I’m wrong about that.

Yah they did, but was that a Trek he was riding? I can't tell what kind of bike it is.

I make sure to keep spacers on both sides of my stem on my Domane, and I am reluctant to put anything but a Bontrager stem on it. Partly cause of these style of warnings.

The dealer insisted you could jack the bars to the very top of the steerer and that was safe but Trek doesn't seem to think so.

[unterhausen]

does anyone other than Bianchi use Bianchi blue?

[teleguy57]

Bianche. Bike sponsor on the jersey too.

Rider's expression frame by frame is something else. Determination?

[Jaybee]

does anyone other than Bianchi use Bianchi blue?

I agree. That is clearly celeste.

To the larger point, sucks for the rider, amazed how long he kept the inevitable from happening, almost certainly an installation error just like the Hincapie thing. (Wasn't Hincapie on an aluminum steerer though?)

[Burnette]

You could see his handlebars oscillate up and down before the failure.

I wonder how long of a stem he was using. Some pros like a long stem, some even slope downward. That puts a lot of pressure at the point of failure.

If I remember right it was a thing some time ago to ride a bike one size smaller and jack up the seat tube and stretch out the stem.

[pasadena]

It was a Bianchi, and he posted he is fine, no serious injury thank goodness.
Steerer snapped but the reasons could be many.
Good reminder to stay within torque specs and good practices when assembling your bike.

[Burnette]

Another take on the incident:

https://youtu.be/NQJUSZeJE8A

[colker]

You could see his handlebars oscillate up and down before the failure.

I wonder how long of a stem he was using. Some pros like a long stem, some even slope downward. That puts a lot of pressure at the point of failure.

If I remember right it was a thing some time ago to ride a bike one size smaller and jack up the seat tube and stretch out the stem.

Huh? Is the stem length the problem? Problem is in design: carbon steerer x aheadset.

[Burnette]

Huh? Is the stem length the problem? Problem is in design: carbon steerer x aheadset.

Oh, I have no idea, I was just pointing out that some pros use long stems angled down and slammed. That puts a lot of pressure right where this bike broke, at the steerer.

[colker]

Oh, I have no idea, I was just pointing out that some pros use long stems angled down and slammed. That puts a lot of pressure right where this bike broke, at the steerer.

Irony being: equipment is validated at these pro racing events. Teams have the best mechanics and manufacturer´s support. When things break the math in people´s minds is: equipment is no good.
The high wattage these racers put out tests parts to the limit. It should not break.

[Peter P.]

Any evidence that's ever happened with a steel steerer? ;)

Just sayin...

[Burnette]

Irony being: equipment is validated at these pro racing events. Teams have the best mechanics and manufacturer´s support. When things break the math in people´s minds is: equipment is no good.
The high wattage these racers put out tests parts to the limit. It should not break.

You're right about that. I would like to see what the cause was but I would bet we'll never know, or we will be told something untrue to save face.

I'm glad the rider came our OK, the video I linked above showed how he unclipped before going down, that was heads up riding.

[azrider]

Another take on the incident:

https://youtu.be/NQJUSZeJE8A

dang......crazy how well rider kept it upright considering it broke long before it appears to have broke. Agreed that the clipping out is super heads up riding......expect nothing less from pro

Thanks for sharing

[zmudshark]

Another take on the incident:

https://youtu.be/NQJUSZeJE8A

dang......crazy how well rider kept it upright considering it broke long before it appears to have broke. Agreed that the clipping out is super heads up riding......expect nothing less from pro

Thanks for sharing

Thanks for posting, and az is right, pro skills.

[KJMUNC]

There's the "O-face" and then there's the "Oh $hit" face....this is the latter

[dddd]

I imagine that being able to conclude that enough testing has been done on this part of the bike can be a very tall order.

I've seen how when some of the steerer inserts have a flange along their top, it forces some extra couple of mm to be cut from the steerer's length.
And if there are no spacers atop the stem, then that couple of mm is added to whatever needed space is needed for the part of the top cap that settles into the steerer. At this point the stem is applying clamping and bending loads along only a portion of it's interior clamping length, and is clamping hard on the very end of the steerer, creating a slightly cone-shaped distortion within the inside bore of the clamp. This is scary.

So unless steer tubes are tested under these conditions, and using the exact type of steerer insert at a standard tightness in terms of expansion, then the results can be unpredictable.

It would be interesting to find out how far through the rider's stem clamp that the end of the steerer reached in this case.

I always like to see some of the actual steerer protruding above the stem, especially on bikes that are ridden by heavier/stronger riders than myself.
And where no spacers are used above the stem, I like to use a flush-bottom top cap instead of a stepped-bottom cap, so the steerer can come up further through the stem clamp.
And I don't like to see a steerer insert used that has a flange at it's top that further reduces the length of clamping purchase on the steerer.

Perhaps all stems should have a bit more clamping length than the ~40mm or so that we are typically seeing these days, but instead we are seeing stems with closed tops in some cases that would appear to allow no safe range of height adjustment.

[bigbill]

I'm a firm believer in 3mm spacer above the stem so the clamping surface is all steerer and not over the top.

[weisan]

.

[Hellgate]

I'm thinking the bike had been crash already. The ride then the sprint finished it off.

That said, a Bianchi broke off at at the steer tube last season. A Spring race IIRC

[dddd]

What mad bike handling skills, no?

It appears that he maintained some ability to steer the bike with the center of the handlebar against the front tire?

This reminded me of a recent WILD ride one racer lived to talk about that almost defied mortal abilities (and was similarly caused by a mechanical failure):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJaZ4t8Jfn0

[zmalwo]

unfortunately carbon products have no uniformity. while carbon fiber itself is always consistent in molecular structure, the resin/carbon mixture is not always so consistent. Voids, folds, resin dry/rich, all contribute to the randomness of it sometimes manufacturers pass off stuff as good even tho their scans show all the defects.... when you hit a jackpot of these defect concentration you will have a bad day....

[zmalwo]

8 out of 10 carbon failure related crashes stem from the forks, so I wonder why don't the manufactures layer up a few extra layers of carbon on all the weak points like fork blades, lower tapered area, and steerers. adding 200g to the most failure-prone area doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[Ronsonic]

Way, way back in the day, wasn't it fairly common to jam a sized dowel up the steerer tube. That was on 1" steel threaded steerers.

A birch dowel would not weigh much and would offer one hell of a lot of reassurance here.

[54ny77]

Eeeeeeyyyyyyouch.

That hurt. To watch too.

[BdaGhisallo]

I agree. That is clearly celeste.

To the larger point, sucks for the rider, amazed how long he kept the inevitable from happening, almost certainly an installation error just like the Hincapie thing. (Wasn't Hincapie on an aluminum steerer though?)

The details I recall were that Trek were rushing out some forks to the Discovery team in time for P Rbx - carbon forks with aluminum steerer tubes. The essential problem was that, in the rush to get them finished and shipped, the steerers weren't properly heat treated.

And let's not forget that Hincapie had already crashed earlier in the race before he had the crash that we all remember which sent his bike and his handlebars off in different directions.

[paredown]

What mad bike handling skills, no?

It appears that he maintained some ability to steer the bike with the center of the handlebar against the front tire?

This reminded me of a recent WILD ride one racer lived to talk about that almost defied mortal abilities (and was similarly caused by a mechanical failure):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJaZ4t8Jfn0

Yes! And he unclips, so he lays it down instead of going endo, as the Aussie video notes.

Mad Skillz!

[tctyres]

Any evidence that's ever happened with a steel steerer? ;)

Just sayin...

I get that you're being cheeky, but steel doesn't get raced. I doubt he would have taken 5th in a pro race on a 184km course with steel. The aerodynamic drag on the fork is prohibitive.

As for history, there are plenty of broken 1" aluminum stems from the pro peloton. Even farther back, there were all sorts of failures with steel forks. The type of failure that comes to mind is the separation of the head tube at the fork crown. This caused a lot of racers to jam broom handles in the bottom of the steerer tube and cut them off. Every now and then a vintage bike shows up with a "cornuellet" (sp?) which is the broom handle in the steerer.

[benb]

I get that you're being cheeky, but steel doesn't get raced. I doubt he would have taken 5th in a pro race on a 184km course with steel. The aerodynamic drag on the fork is prohibitive.

As for history, there are plenty of broken 1" aluminum stems from the pro peloton. Even farther back, there were all sorts of failures with steel forks. The type of failure that comes to mind is the separation of the head tube at the fork crown. This caused a lot of racers to jam broom handles in the bottom of the steerer tube and cut them off. Every now and then a vintage bike shows up with a "cornuellet" (sp?) which is the broom handle in the steerer.

The aero drag on the fork wouldn't make that much difference. You're buying modern bike marketing way way too much. Remember all that aero marketing is trivial #s of watts compared to the riders positioning and behavior.

If the whole bike was steel and had a vintage steel weight maybe that would make a difference on a hilly/mountainous course.

Carbon fork with steel steerer I am having a hard time believing would have kept him from placing.

[dddd]

I get that you're being cheeky, but steel doesn't get raced. I doubt he would have taken 5th in a pro race on a 184km course with steel. The aerodynamic drag on the fork is prohibitive.

As for history, there are plenty of broken 1" aluminum stems from the pro peloton. Even farther back, there were all sorts of failures with steel forks. The type of failure that comes to mind is the separation of the head tube at the fork crown. This caused a lot of racers to jam broom handles in the bottom of the steerer tube and cut them off. Every now and then a vintage bike shows up with a "cornuellet" (sp?) which is the broom handle in the steerer.

Perhaps it was first the racers who put wood dowel in their steer tubes, but the major manufacturers eventually also did this on popular models, even though it could cause water to be trapped inside (these were quite closely-fitted).

Production steel frames gained weight over the years to meet more-stringent standards for strength as carbon frames and forks got ever lighter. I remember the day that someone brought me a (Tange Prestige-tubed) Soma frameset to be built up, and how shocked that I was by it's heft when it was handed to me. Custom builders are free to build precisely to the customer's weight, so can create a much lighter steel frameset.

It seems fortunate to me that 1" quill stems can still be made to modern standards (and at low cost) in both steel and aluminum!

[tctyres]

The aero drag on the fork wouldn't make that much difference. You're buying modern bike marketing way way too much. Remember all that aero marketing is trivial #s of watts compared to the riders positioning and behavior.

If the whole bike was steel and had a vintage steel weight maybe that would make a difference on a hilly/mountainous course.

Carbon fork with steel steerer I am having a hard time believing would have kept him from placing.

Sure, positioning matters more than the shape of the fork blades, but we're talking about a group of pro racers who leave the upper part of their handlebars untaped to save watts. The rounded profile of a steel fork would be the problem as it sheds vortices poorly. The weight is only secondary at the speeds they are maintaining.

As for a carbon fork with a steel steerer, you're probably right. I doubt that Bianchi would offer that to their teams, though.

[Mark McM]

Any evidence that's ever happened with a steel steerer? ;)

Just sayin...

I've witnessed it happen. In the New England District Championship road race one year I was at the feed zone, supporting a rider on my team. As the 1/2 race came by, a child ran out into the road (I think he was trying to give a water bottle hand up to his father). One rider had to slam on his brakes to avoid running into the child. As the rider braked, his steel fork steerer snapped (at the crown), dropping the rider to the ground. Fortunately, the feed zone was on an uphill, so the riders weren't going very fast, and the crashed rider escaped serious injury.

[Mark McM]

Way, way back in the day, wasn't it fairly common to jam a sized dowel up the steerer tube. That was on 1" steel threaded steerers.

It was also common to throw a pinch of salt over your shoulder for luck. Both were equally effective.

[Mark McM]

I've seen how when some of the steerer inserts have a flange along their top, it forces some extra couple of mm to be cut from the steerer's length.
And if there are no spacers atop the stem, then that couple of mm is added to whatever needed space is needed for the part of the top cap that settles into the steerer.

How does a flange on the top of the steerer insert force the steerer to be cut shorter? All the extra height would do is increase the spacer stack a couple of millimeters higher above the stem. I always cut carbon steerers with a generous amount of length above the stem (if nothing else this allows a little stem height adjustability), so a couple of millimeters of spacers isn't even noticeable.

[benb]

Sure, positioning matters more than the shape of the fork blades, but we're talking about a group of pro racers who leave the upper part of their handlebars untaped to save watts. The rounded profile of a steel fork would be the problem as it sheds vortices poorly. The weight is only secondary at the speeds they are maintaining.

As for a carbon fork with a steel steerer, you're probably right. I doubt that Bianchi would offer that to their teams, though.

How many watts does not taping the bar top save? 1W? The fork legs? A couple watts?

If the rider misses out on getting a good draft or gets in bad positions or sits up on the bar tops when they shouldn't that stuff is all way way more significant than these little things the bike companies tell us mean everything.

I don't know how you measure this stuff... Watt*Seconds or something? Sure a fork that has 1W more drag has that for the whole race.

But missing a draft for a minute or two here or there as the race goes on would add up to many thousands of these Watt*Seconds.

There's no reason if you're in the race not to take advantage of some of this stuff but it doesn't mean if a team didn't that it would be a make or break difference.

[Ronsonic]

It was also common to throw a pinch of salt over your shoulder for luck. Both were equally effective.

Acknowledging it wouldn't have done much for a steel steerer, in this case it would've saved the guy some skin.

[zmalwo]

I get that you're being cheeky, but steel doesn't get raced. I doubt he would have taken 5th in a pro race on a 184km course with steel. The aerodynamic drag on the fork is prohibitive.

As for history, there are plenty of broken 1" aluminum stems from the pro peloton. Even farther back, there were all sorts of failures with steel forks. The type of failure that comes to mind is the separation of the head tube at the fork crown. This caused a lot of racers to jam broom handles in the bottom of the steerer tube and cut them off. Every now and then a vintage bike shows up with a "cornuellet" (sp?) which is the broom handle in the steerer.

It will if UCI didn't set the weight limit so low. 6.8kg is not adequate to safely construct a bicycle at all. When it comes to human life statistical significance should be taken very seriously.

[dddd]

How does a flange on the top of the steerer insert force the steerer to be cut shorter? All the extra height would do is increase the spacer stack a couple of millimeters higher above the stem. I always cut carbon steerers with a generous amount of length above the stem (if nothing else this allows a little stem height adjustability), so a couple of millimeters of spacers isn't even noticeable.

It's when the stem height is adjusted to where all of the spacers are positioned below the stem, then you have the flange and the top cap step-down each stealing a few extra millimeters from the engagement of the stem on the steerer.
Also, some of today's stems are closed off at the top, so there's no option to add any spacer(s) above the stem.

[sales guy]

A big problem with steerer failure is lack of support from the inside. I only supply really long expander plugs. The short ones like the ones from Hope, Enve, KCNC and numerous others, they don't go past the stress point. This fork failed right below the stem. No spacers below it. If he had a longer plug in it would've supported the load. The plug would've gone below the stem and into the top plate of the headset. Some companies are giving longer plugs like Colnago. Luescher Teknik has been pushing this for a few years now. I've only offered longer plugs of 50-60mm long or longer if someone wants them. Deda and Columbus are offering them now as well cause of this problem.

[tv_vt]

^^^ Excellent! Haven't seen that before, but is a great idea.

[tctyres]

It will if UCI didn't set the weight limit so low. 6.8kg is not adequate to safely construct a bicycle at all. When it comes to human life statistical significance should be taken very seriously.

I'm pretty sure no one died in this case. Statistically, you are far more likely to lose skin in a crash than die.

Anecdotally, the last death in the pro peloton was Bjorn Lambrecht a month or two ago. The youtube video shows him raising his hand as if he had a mechanical. Then he steers into a deep irrigation ditch and probably cracked a vertebrae going over the handlebars --- very sad. Again, this does not appear to have anything to do with the weight of the bike.

[tctyres]

I've only offered longer plugs of 50-60mm long or longer if someone wants them. Deda and Columbus are offering them now as well cause of this problem.

Great, thanks! I ordered one.

[sales guy]

^^^ Excellent! Haven't seen that before, but is a great idea.

The top one is a Colnago one and it like 80mm long.
Then a Hope, a generic one used by a bunch of people, then an Enve one.
The ones I bring in are 60mm long but I do offer the 80mm ones for people planning on a taller spacer stack.

Given a stem is only 35 to 40mm tall, add a few spacers, the ones I use will put it into the headset depending on spacers stack. Leuscher Teknik has shown some headset top plates that have damaged steerers. All to save a few grams, people are putting themselves in harms way if the steerer fails. And they do!

[dddd]

A big problem with steerer failure is lack of support from the inside. I only supply really long expander plugs. The short ones like the ones from Hope, Enve, KCNC and numerous others, they don't go past the stress point. This fork failed right below the stem. No spacers below it. If he had a longer plug in it would've supported the load. The plug would've gone below the stem and into the top plate of the headset. Some companies are giving longer plugs like Colnago. Luescher Teknik has been pushing this for a few years now. I've only offered longer plugs of 50-60mm long or longer if someone wants them. Deda and Columbus are offering them now as well cause of this problem.


I noticed that on all of these flanged expander plugs, not only does the thickness of the flange itself moves the end of the steerer below the top end of the installed expander plug, but what looks like a length of the top cone also spaces the gripping/support sleeve below the end of the steerer. And of course this space can be added to not only the flange thickness but also to the step-down of any top cap that has such a feature to potentially move the internally-supported length of the steerer further down from the top of the stem clamp.
All of this can force the top of the support sleeve well below the top of the stem (plus a bit yet further down considering the needed headset-tensioning clearance) on installations lacking a spacer above the stem.

So I would really prefer to see all such expander plugs position the gripping/support sleeve within a mm or two of the end of the bare steerer, and with the top cap having a purely flat underside profile.

I don't believe that a sufficiently overwhelming majority of those who set up or subsequently adjust these current setups (which may add un-clamped space within the stem clamp above the end of the steerer) are fully cognizant of these implications of riding without any spacer(s) above the stem, and as such I consider these to be dangerously defective from any reasonable liability perspective.
I would temper/amend the above (and below) if/when I see any published research that suggests that the loss of roughly 5-6mm of clamping length (of existing 35-40+mm stem clamping lengths) does not seriously compromise the integrity of the installed stem/steerer assembly.

That some of these expander plugs are offered in longer lengths is very good, and would appear to have the potential to prevent catastrophic separation of the top end of the steerer, but in terms of their seeming potential for slightly increasing the the likelihood of a faulty/dangerous installation, I think this is nuts.

I also think that there perhaps needs to be rigid standards for the ID of carbon steerers into which these expander plugs are used, to facilitate (and in addition to) the elimination of the potentially non-gripping space within the stem clamp that the current designs impose. Perhaps such standards already exist(?).

After further consideration, I think that it might be simplest for all top caps to include some minimum of built-on spacer (perhaps 5 or 6mm) sufficient to accommodate the potential combined loss of clamping length (which should be defined as a standardized maximum distance) resulting from the upper few mm of the expander plug plus any step-down of the top cap (that might typically be used to allow a flush top cap bolt head).

Has a top cap with a built-on spacer perhaps been done already(?), I don't know.

[Fivethumbs]

A couple of years ago this exact same thing happened on a Diamond Back in the Tour of California. The incident was caught on video but there was never any follow up information. It seemed like the the incident was quashed and everyone acted like it never happened. I see riders crash all the time in races and jump back on their bikes. Those crashes can likely have an effect on the integrity of the bike.

[tony_mm]

I see riders crash all the time in races and jump back on their bikes. Those crashes can likely have an effect on the integrity of the bike.


Definitely! That‘s also a reason why the Pro teams sell all their bikes after one season....

[m_sasso]

I have been using these inexpensive Neco C286GCL expanders, not quite as long as the Colonago, however the supported area under the stem clamp is much larger than the vast majority of plugs and exceeds the stack height by a good margin of any stem I have worked with.

https://cdn.ready-market.com/101/3fdd3b61//Templates/pic/m/C286GCL.jpg?v=47f197a3

[tctyres]

This is the Leuscher Teknik explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSnbjHiFXc

[mcteague]

This is the Leuscher Teknik explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSnbjHiFXc

He just uploaded a more recent video about this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=muukpjzb5Jw

And one from durianrider. He can be a bit much but this video is pretty much spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxoozD4WdJk

Tim

[tctyres]

He just uploaded a more recent video about this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=muukpjzb5Jw

And one from durianrider. He can be a bit much but this video is pretty much spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxoozD4WdJk

Tim

Thanks!

durianrider is a bit of a character. I had to fast forward through that, but the comment on where the pro cyclist is looking to land is dark and funny.

[sales guy]

I don't know who this Durian guy is, but it bugs me he says BianCHEE. And I've been talking about the small expander plugs for years. I never ever use them. I have a huge bag filled with them cause they absolutely suck.

[mcteague]

I don't know who this Durian guy is, but it bugs me he says BianCHEE. And I've been talking about the small expander plugs for years. I never ever use them. I have a huge bag filled with them cause they absolutely suck.

The Specialized plugs look nice and are cheap at $10!

https://images.amain.com/images/large/bikes/specialized/06214-2010.jpg?width=475

Tim

[dddd]

The Specialized plugs look nice and are cheap at $10!

https://images.amain.com/images/large/bikes/specialized/06214-2010.jpg?width=475

Tim

Not just cheap and long, but the support extends much closer to the top flange as well.

I would put in a rec for Cervelo's glued-in (and very light) thin aluminum tube, as long as it is glued in well (since I had to re-glue one once).
Extends over the "working" length of the steerer and uses the simple old star-fangled nut that never slips.
I'm actually surprised that all of the bike makers didn't go this route many years ago!

[Veloo]

Origin8 has one.
http://origin8.bike/product/fusion-expander-compression-plug-35895

So does Eclypse, which Urbane carries here in T.O. They said it is about 6 cm long.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Eclypse-Black-Out-Race-Expander-bolt-for-carbon-steerer-28-6mm/184630719

[unterhausen]

I'm actually surprised that all of the bike makers didn't go this route many years ago!
what I'm surprised about is that fork manufacturers don't just make a steerer that can't be broken by bad mechanics. It's going to happen, at all levels of cycling.

[zmalwo]

The specialized ones barely covers the length of your stem clamp. Get the Colnago one. 80mm ensures you to be able to have a few spacers for those not so cut steerers.

[dddd]

what I'm surprised about is that fork manufacturers don't just make a steerer that can't be broken by bad mechanics. It's going to happen, at all levels of cycling.

I was trying to say that Cervelo seems to have done just that!

[sales guy]

The Specialized plugs look nice and are cheap at $10!

Tim

It's not long enough. Doesn't support the stem plus spacers.

Not just cheap and long, but the support extends much closer to the top flange as well.

I would put in a rec for Cervelo's glued-in (and very light) thin aluminum tube, as long as it is glued in well (since I had to re-glue one once).
Extends over the "working" length of the steerer and uses the simple old star-fangled nut that never slips.
I'm actually surprised that all of the bike makers didn't go this route many years ago!

glue-in style work until they don't. many times the buyer/shop doesn't prep them correctly and they come unglued.

Origin8 has one.
http://origin8.bike/product/fusion-expander-compression-plug-35895

So does Eclypse, which Urbane carries here in T.O. They said it is about 6 cm long.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Eclypse-Black-Out-Race-Expander-bolt-for-carbon-steerer-28-6mm/184630719

The Origin8 one is excellent. A bit tankie but oh well. It's really long. That's a plus. The other one is only 50mm long. Barely enough for a stem.

what I'm surprised about is that fork manufacturers don't just make a steerer that can't be broken by bad mechanics. It's going to happen, at all levels of cycling.

Because they can't do it. Time adds does a kevlar wrap around steerers which is great but hamfisted people will still figure a way to damage a steerer.

The specialized ones barely covers the length of your stem clamp. Get the Colnago one. 80mm ensures you to be able to have a few spacers for those not so cut steerers.

The Colnago ones are great at 80mm. Most times they go into the headset unless you have a ton of spacers.

[benb]

This thread keeps getting scarier.

I know Trek had some issues, my bike is model year 2016. It came with an FSA headset.

I can't find the length of the FSA plug anywhere, I believe it is an FSA plug with a Bontrager cap on it. Right now I have 2mm of spacers above it IIRC. It usually gets run with 2mm or 5mm of spacers above.

I also run most of the available spacers below it. If I got the right angle stem (which might look weird) I could get the steerer tube cut to optimize all this stuff.

[mcteague]

It's not long enough. Doesn't support the stem plus spacers.



The Colnago ones are great at 80mm. Most times they go into the headset unless you have a ton of spacers.

I only have a 10mm spacer below the stem and 5mm above. I would think the Specialized would work.

Who has the Colnago ones in stock? A Google search shows nothing in the US and both Wiggle & ChainReaction show unavailable.

Tim

[BdaGhisallo]

Longer plugs are certainly a great idea and I have been using them for a while myself but this discussion reminds me of something I tried a few years back.

I had a long cutoff section of steerer from an Enve 1.0 fork. It was a little thinner walled than the steerer on an Enve 2.0. I put a stem on there and tighten down that stem as hard as I could, going so far as to use an 18" breaker bar with a 4mm socket. I killed the cheap stem I was using but the length of steerer tube was undamaged to my naked eye. I had a really, really good look at it and couldn't find a crimp or crack anywhere along its 12 odd cm's.

It made me realize that these tubes are stronger than I ever imagined - though that doesn't stop me from taking all the noted precautions when I install one.

[benb]

Yes it is easy to get scared...

My anecdote.. I mentioned in another thread today that I had a BH G5.

That bike had an ENVE manufactured fork with a custom paint scheme to match the bike. I don't really know what exactly the fork was. It was actually in the right time frame it was still branded EDGE too.

I unfortunately hit the top of the garage door with that bike (handlebars contacted the garage) on the roof of my subaru. The frame grenaded. Top Tube & Down Tube shattered, parts of the head tube cracked & broke away too. The Yakima bike rack's steel axle mount bent, that axle is much thicker than a QR.

That Fork including steer tube looked completely unscathed when I took it all apart. The handlebars also did not bend at all.

Sure you need to be careful but carbon forks are not weak in normal situations at all.

[sales guy]

I only have a 10mm spacer below the stem and 5mm above. I would think the Specialized would work.

Who has the Colnago ones in stock? A Google search shows nothing in the US and both Wiggle & ChainReaction show unavailable.

Tim

The S one is only 48mm long. so not long at all. I am out of the colnago ones right now. they only offer them in the US really as a warranty replacement piece. I have more on the way. I am going to get something of those 90mm ones tho. I like those. I have 65mm ones right now tho.

[Peter P.]

I'm actually surprised that all of the bike makers didn't go this route many years ago!

Excess weight due to the aluminum insert! I BOUGHT A FULL CARBON FORK FOR ITS LIGHT WEIGHT AND I WILL NOT RUIN IT WITH A HEAVY INSERT!

:rolleyes:

[old_fat_and_slow]

I BOUGHT A FULL CARBON FORK FOR ITS LIGHT WEIGHT AND I WILL NOT RUIN IT WITH A HEAVY INSERT!

:rolleyes:

Yeah, Live life on the edge Damnnit !! :)

[mcteague]

The S one is only 48mm long. so not long at all. I am out of the colnago ones right now. they only offer them in the US really as a warranty replacement piece. I have more on the way. I am going to get something of those 90mm ones tho. I like those. I have 65mm ones right now tho.

Thanks. I see the Deda HSS model that looks good but sells for $25 as opposed to $10 for the Spec. What do you sell the Colnago ones for or are the only for sale with a fork?

http://www.dedaelementi.com/en/expander-hss/

Tim

[sales guy]

Thanks. I see the Deda HSS model that looks good but sells for $25 as opposed to $10 for the Spec. What do you sell the Colnago ones for or are the only for sale with a fork?

http://www.dedaelementi.com/en/expander-hss/

Tim

I offer a 60mm, 70mm and 80mm expander. I am gonna bring in that 90mm one someone posted.
The 60mm is a generic alloy one. Nice and not bad price wise. $18.
The 70mm one is from Deda and Columbus. Both are alloy and very nice and $25 each.
The 80mm is Colnago and is $25.
That 90mm one from Origin8 is $20. I placed an order for a dozen of them today. Hopefully I'll have them in by weeks end.
I have the really short ones from Enve and others but I never use them. I just don't trust them. I've pushed longer ones for years and have only ever included/sold the longer ones. The only time I use/include a short one is if it's a brand new fork not on a bike from Enve or whomever and it's just cause thats what it comes with in the box.

[tctyres]

The Origin8 one is excellent. A bit tankie but oh well. It's really long. That's a plus.

I ordered this one, and it arrived today. It's 49g on my kitchen scale. I'll weigh the others I have when I get around to it. I'm guessing they will be about 20-30g.

[dddd]

Excess weight due to the aluminum insert! I BOUGHT A FULL CARBON FORK FOR ITS LIGHT WEIGHT AND I WILL NOT RUIN IT WITH A HEAVY INSERT!

:rolleyes:

I think that the Cervelo thin Al tube is lighter than an expander plug, but one also has to add the weight of a star-fangled nut to this setup.

Sales Guy is right about the tube being poorly bonded into Cervelo fork steerers, but it's not a structural concern. It's only when it pulls up enough to prevent the haedset bearings from being tensioned/pre-loaded.

I had to glue one back in because the original glue was on the soft side and not enough of it. Specialized bb epoxy to the rescue.

[tctyres]

I ordered this one, and it arrived today. It's 49g on my kitchen scale. I'll weigh the others I have when I get around to it. I'm guessing they will be about 20-30g.

FSA (short, not recommended) 39g
Ultralight Cannondale (also not recommended): 17g
No name from ebay: 39g

The origin8 also has a smart design. I was impressed with it when I was checking it out earlier.

[CAAD]

I think there is more to it than sudden failure. There has to be previous impact or extreme over tightening. UltraStar 3 expanders have been working great for me for years now. I inspect my steerers when going through the bikes, never noticed anything alarming. Trek, enve, Cannondale forks.

[Heisenberg]

It's not long enough. Doesn't support the stem plus spacers.



glue-in style work until they don't. many times the buyer/shop doesn't prep them correctly and they come unglued.



The Origin8 one is excellent. A bit tankie but oh well. It's really long. That's a plus. The other one is only 50mm long. Barely enough for a stem.



Because they can't do it. Time adds does a kevlar wrap around steerers which is great but hamfisted people will still figure a way to damage a steerer.



The Colnago ones are great at 80mm. Most times they go into the headset unless you have a ton of spacers.

uh

this is uh

a lot of plug is not really going to do anything if your steerer fails. because levers physics and twisting loads without clamping and wrenching and whatnot. just go loosen your stem bolts for a similar experience, save the uh...upward sprint wrenching. unless the actual steerer is reinforced against failure, the amount of pressure one would have to exert from inside via the expansion plug to keep the stem in place would uhhhhhhhhhhhh break ****. if you're suggesting that an inner structure as...rudimentary as an expansion plug is going to stop an inherently flawed layup from failing (if voids manufacturing errors whatever) because of outward pressure you should digest a few masterclasses on composites or something. otherwise, consider switching to a steel fork (they're good, I promise).

simon was a teammie of mine. great bike handler. superb road captain. not shocked he pulled that off. also who's suggesting his position is REALLY AGGRO and would cause failure? 'cause his is pretty conservative.

you've all wasted your money. but ymmv, i guess. because PANIC.

carbon forks from reputable sources are actually pretty good. i'm also pretty sure that most people here don't sprint over 1000w. or use their arms, in the drops, with nice positioning. or have race mechanics working on their bikes. or ride 20hrs a week.

again. ymmv. this thread is stupid.

kids modern mass-produced race bikes are really ****ing overbuilt, for the same reason that their geometry and ride quality suck. they're all built for an average. and that average includes you and andre greipel.

[dddd]

...a lot of plug is not really going to do anything if your steerer fails...

I agree, and why I like Cervelo's tube/sleeve that shares the load before the steerer comes close to failing.
I talked to a rider on today's ride, he's one of the biggest at over 6' and 200#, and his ~10-yr-old Calfee has what he said was a thicker-walled 1-1/8" steer tube and an aluminum sleeve. His only problem with it is that the star nut is unusually small-diameter, and the threaded part spins in the star nut itself, so he hasn't been able to find a replacement star nut that will fit. I suggested that an alloy or even wood plug could be bonded into the sleeve and drilled and threaded for the top cap screw.

[Peter P.]

I talked to a rider on today's ride, he's one of the biggest at over 6' and 200#, and his ~10-yr-old Calfee has what he said was a thicker-walled 1-1/8" steer tube and an aluminum sleeve. His only problem...

Have your friend contact Calfee directly. They supplied the fork; they likely have the exact insert needed.

[Hank Scorpio]

Corner Cycle in Cape Cod has had these on their site for ages. No price and I am not sure they are actually still producing them but similar to old Alpha Q bond in style.

https://www.cornercycle.com/about/carbon-fork-insert-pg69.htm

[mcteague]

Corner Cycle in Cape Cod has had these on their site for ages. No price and I am not sure they are actually still producing them but similar to old Alpha Q bond in style.

https://www.cornercycle.com/about/carbon-fork-insert-pg69.htm

Same type that Zinn offers for his larger than normal frames.

https://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html

Tim

[sales guy]

uh

this is uh

a lot of plug is not really going to do anything if your steerer fails. because levers physics and twisting loads without clamping and wrenching and whatnot. just go loosen your stem bolts for a similar experience, save the uh...upward sprint wrenching. unless the actual steerer is reinforced against failure, the amount of pressure one would have to exert from inside via the expansion plug to keep the stem in place would uhhhhhhhhhhhh break ****. if you're suggesting that an inner structure as...rudimentary as an expansion plug is going to stop an inherently flawed layup from failing I never said an expander is going to stop a flawed or poorly manufactured fork.(if voids manufacturing errors whatever) because of outward pressure you should digest a few masterclasses on composites or something. otherwise, consider switching to a steel fork (they're good, I promise). I worked for Kestrel and Cervelo designing and manufacturing frames and forks and at American Classic as Production Manager. of components.

simon was a teammie of mine. great bike handler. superb road captain. not shocked he pulled that off. also who's suggesting his position is REALLY AGGRO and would cause failure? 'cause his is pretty conservative. I never suggested his position was at fault or cause of the failure.

you've all wasted your money. but ymmv, i guess. because PANIC.

carbon forks from reputable sources are actually pretty good. i'm also pretty sure that most people here don't sprint over 1000w. or use their arms, in the drops, with nice positioning. or have race mechanics working on their bikes. or ride 20hrs a week. I agree that some forks are excellent. But every fork will fail under certain circumstances.

again. ymmv. this thread is stupid. I think it's a silly thread but not stupid. I think it highlighted something that many people don't think about.

kids modern mass-produced race bikes are really ****ing overbuilt, for the same reason that their geometry and ride quality suck. they're all built for an average. and that average includes you and andre greipel. sometimes current bikes are overbuilt. Some are just the opposite. Everyone is so obsessed about the lightest frame, fork and components though. Many companies use it in marketing materials. .

[sales guy]

Same type that Zinn offers for his larger than normal frames.

https://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html

Tim

I think it funny how some people are all the longer plug doesn't matter. Yet People like Zinn, Teknik and others who know stuff say it does. I get that sometimes people talk out their ass. But this is a pretty easy thing to figure out and see that a longer plug going past a shear point will strengthen a steerer and help it to not fail. I am not saying they absolutely WILL NOT fail if you use a super long plug. But it will help avoid it.

[CAAD]

Anything at any moment can fail. I have seen hub flanges let loose during a ride, old wheel, corrosion, improper maintenance. Broken carbon bars at the hood/shifter clamp, improper maintenance, installation. Alloy bars corroded completely through, improper maintenance. No guarantee the fork won't just sheer off at the crown. You reinforce the steerer tube at the stem and upper headset with a 50g aluminum ingot, what about the rest of the fork? You better also reinforce your setpost also where it clamps at the frame if you are using a carbon post.

[CAAD]

I think it funny how some people are all the longer plug doesn't matter. Yet People like Zinn, Teknik and others who know stuff say it does. I get that sometimes people talk out their ass. But this is a pretty easy thing to figure out and see that a longer plug going past a shear point will strengthen a steerer and help it to not fail. I am not saying they absolutely WILL NOT fail if you use a super long plug. But it will help avoid it.

Time to replace that fork then. Inspect your equipment regularly. If that were mine it would be in the bin.

[sales guy]

Time to replace that fork then. Inspect your equipment regularly. If that were mine it would be in the bin.

I don't disagree this needs to be scrapped. The problem is most people don't check their own gear. And if they do, they normally don't check things like this. They do the normal surface work and that's it.

[Mark McM]

Anything at any moment can fail. I have seen hub flanges let loose during a ride, old wheel, corrosion, improper maintenance. Broken carbon bars at the hood/shifter clamp, improper maintenance, installation. Alloy bars corroded completely through, improper maintenance. No guarantee the fork won't just sheer off at the crown. You reinforce the steerer tube at the stem and upper headset with a 50g aluminum ingot, what about the rest of the fork? You better also reinforce your setpost also where it clamps at the frame if you are using a carbon post.

All this is true, but a fork steerer is of particular concern for two reasons:

Unlike many parts on a bike, it has no redundancy. If a seat or chainstay snaps, there's still 3 other stays holding the rear wheel on; if a top tube or down tube snaps, there's still the other tube hold the bike together. If some spokes break out of hub flange, there's still many other spokes holding the wheel together. But the only thing holding the fork/front wheel and handlebars onto the bike is the steerer. A failed steerer is far more likely to cause a crash than many other parts of the bike.

Most parts of a bike are easily inspected. Most "sudden" fractures actually occur from flaws or cracks that were detectable beforehand, and early detection could have prevented the failure. Most structural members of a bike (frame, spokes, hubs, etc.) are visible to the eye and can be easily inspected at frequent intervals. In contrast, the steerer is complete enclosed, and can not be inspected without disassembling part of the bicycle. So early detection of signs of impending failure is far less practical with steerers than with other structural parts of the bike.

[oldturd]

i'm sorry if i missed this somewhere in the thread but was it confirmed what failed? are we are assuming its the expander?

[tctyres]

i'm sorry if i missed this somewhere in the thread but was it confirmed what failed? are we are assuming its the expander?

There's a short road.cc article about it:

As our tech editor David Arthur explains here, such equipment failures are more often than not due to human error somewhere along the line rather than an inherent defect.

Our suspicion is that the stem bolts holding the steering tube in place may have been tightened beyond their maximum torque tolerance, putting excessive stress on it and causing it to break.

https://road.cc/content/news/266662-swiss-pro-snapped-steerer-crash-tweets-and-deletes-broken-bianchi-pic-strava

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/simon-pellaud-bianchi-specialissima.png?itok=F99hOyou

[pdmtong]

After further consideration, I think that it might be simplest for all top caps to include some minimum of built-on spacer (perhaps 5 or 6mm) sufficient to accommodate the potential combined loss of clamping length (which should be defined as a standardized maximum distance) resulting from the upper few mm of the expander plug plus any step-down of the top cap (that might typically be used to allow a flush top cap bolt head).

Has a top cap with a built-on spacer perhaps been done already(?), I don't know.

The cannondale top cap is effectively a 5mm spacer and achieves what you describe

https://www.reveloutdoors.co.uk/img/products/csg/k35058-400.jpg

[Matthew]

Thanks guys, I am now afraid to ride my bike. I have two carbon forks with no spacers above the stem. One with a 5mm spacer. Two are Serotta F3, one Colnago EPS. Serotta stem is slammed, Moots stem has maybe 5mm of spacers under the stem. Colnago has their cone shaped spacer and a small spacer under the stem. Even scarier is I don't use a torque wrench. Think my plugs are of the longer variety but not sure. I'm doomed.

[pdmtong]

Thanks guys, I am now afraid to ride my bike. I have two carbon forks with no spacers above the stem. One with a 5mm spacer. Two are Serotta F3, one Colnago EPS. Serotta stem is slammed, Moots stem has maybe 5mm of spacers under the stem. Colnago has their cone shaped spacer and a small spacer under the stem. Even scarier is I don't use a torque wrench. Think my plugs are of the longer variety but not sure. I'm doomed.

Spend $10 and get yourself a torque key. Cheap insurance.

I had both a F3 and a Ouzo Pro with no spacers above the stem (it wasn't a thing back then) BUT I did use a torque key.

[FlashUNC]

The cannondale top cap is effectively a 5mm spacer and achieves what you describe

https://www.reveloutdoors.co.uk/img/products/csg/k35058-400.jpg

Wolf Tooth has the same thing in their top caps and "bling" kit. 5mm top cap. Works great.

This is much ado about nothing.

[sales guy]

There's a short road.cc article about it:

https://road.cc/content/news/266662-swiss-pro-snapped-steerer-crash-tweets-and-deletes-broken-bianchi-pic-strava

https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/simon-pellaud-bianchi-specialissima.png?itok=F99hOyou

I love how the Tech Editor throws the mechanic under the bus. As a former pro wrench, I can almost guarantee you it's not related to the stem binder bolts. Pro Mechanics, they have torque wrenches permanently attached to them. Especially road mechanics that deal with tons of carbon components. And the stem bolts, bar bolts and seat binder bolts, those are ALWAYS done with a torque wrench.

[Matthew]

My first response was a bit tongue in cheek. I have had the stems off all of my bikes and inspected them at that time and saw no visible damage of any sort. It's been some time since I've done this but I'm not too concerned.

[Heisenberg]

I love how the Tech Editor throws the mechanic under the bus. As a former pro wrench, I can almost guarantee you it's not related to the stem binder bolts. Pro Mechanics, they have torque wrenches permanently attached to them. Especially road mechanics that deal with tons of carbon components. And the stem bolts, bar bolts and seat binder bolts, those are ALWAYS done with a torque wrench.

you been around many conti team wrenches? in europe? it's a little um...slapdash. or if there was an on-road adjustment. or if he was running slamination without a spacer above.

here, have a screenshot from an actual composites engineer who does things like composites engineering with actual engineering degree.

https://i.imgur.com/v36UIbf.png

so yes. the conjecture is just fearmongering. quit it. plugs. do. not. matter. they are part of the headset, not the fork.

[bitpuddle]

There's a short road.cc article about it:

That’s a great photo; you don’t often see photos of this damage in a pro race. The bikes get whisked away.

It certainly looks to me like a failure right at the stem.

Could be a number of things, though: simple over-torquing, previous crash damage, an inherent flaw made worse while cutting the steerer...

[sales guy]

you been around many conti team wrenches? in europe? it's a little um...slapdash. or if there was an on-road adjustment. or if he was running slamination without a spacer above.

here, have a screenshot from an actual composites engineer who does things like composites engineering with actual engineering degree.

https://i.imgur.com/v36UIbf.png

so yes. the conjecture is just fearmongering. quit it. plugs. do. not. matter. they are part of the headset, not the fork.

The engineer is clearly wrong. To state the plug has no compression/expansion on it is false. Put a plug in and tighten it. Then try and put the top cap of the headset on or put the stem or spacers on. They will either not go on or you will struggle to get them on. Then loosen it and watch how easy it is to put them on. The expander wedge gets compression on it from the stem.

And yeah, I have been around quite a few. Thanks for asking tho.

[FlashUNC]

So was Time negligent in making frames that did not require an expander plug?

Did Tom Boonen risk his life winning Roubaix, Flanders and the Worlds on a bike with no expander plug?

Or is the plug more about the preload than any clamp support for the steerer?

[sales guy]

So was Time negligent in making frames that did not require an expander plug?

Did Tom Boonen risk his life winning Roubaix, Flanders and the Worlds on a bike with no expander plug?

Or is the plug more about the preload than any clamp support for the steerer?

Time does not use an expander due to having a plug in them and their glued on threaded quickset headset design. They use a Time branded one. I have one on my VXRS. It is not an expander, but it's still a wedge that goes down into the fork for support. The paperwork even says so. And the stem still clamps around it and compresses it.

[FlashUNC]

Time does not use an expander due to having a plug in them. They use a Time branded one. I have one on my VXRS. It is not an expander, but it's still a wedge that goes down into the fork for support. The paperwork even says so. And the stem still clamps around it and compresses it.

Did you swap it for an 8cm expander plug? I don't know how you'd ride such a dangerous bike if you think anything less than that is unsafe.

[sales guy]

Did you swap it for an 8cm expander plug? I don't know how you'd ride such a dangerous bike if you think anything less than that is unsafe.

I did in fact replace it! Currently the bike isn't being ridden so I am safe. But thanks for asking.

[Heisenberg]

The engineer is clearly wrong. To state the plug has no compression/expansion on it is false. Put a plug in and tighten it.

aw, ninja edit - he’s not “stupid af” anymore?

it’s a wonder more people on a large volume of INSERTONEOFLARGEST4BIKEBRANDS haven’t died if he is.

stop spreading fear and misinformation by posing as an insider. it’s not cool.

[sales guy]

aw, ninja edit - he’s not “stupid af” anymore?

it’s a wonder more people on a large volume of INSERTONEOFLARGEST4BIKEBRANDS haven’t died if he is.

stop spreading fear and misinformation by posing as an insider. it’s not cool.

No, he's still stupid af. I was just trying to be nice so I changed it. As for my "posing" as an insider, whatever you say.

[FlashUNC]

I did in fact replace it! Currently the bike isn't being ridden so I am safe. But thanks for asking.

Wait for realz?

They create everything in house from the ground up. I have a hard time believing anyone knows what's best for their product than Time.

Keep that wall art safe though.

[sales guy]

Wait for realz?

They create everything in house from the ground up. I have a hard time believing anyone knows what's best for their product than Time.

Keep that wall art safe though.

Originally my frameset didn't come with it. So I used an expander with it cause I didn't want to have a random hole in the top of the bike and I didn't want to worry about damaging and not supporting the steerer. Already have the hole in the bottom bracket from galvanic corrosion. That's more than enough hole wise. I did end up buying one and putting it in for a bit. I am not as worried about the Time forks since they are reinforced with an outer kevlar sock. It is literally hanging on a wall in the office right now as a bare frame. I still need to get the bottom bracket shell fixed.

[mcteague]

The engineer is clearly wrong. To state the plug has no compression/expansion on it is false. Put a plug in and tighten it. Then try and put the top cap of the headset on or put the stem or spacers on. They will either not go on or you will struggle to get them on. Then loosen it and watch how easy it is to put them on. The expander wedge gets compression on it from the stem.

And yeah, I have been around quite a few. Thanks for asking tho.

Luescher has a nice video showing how just snugging up the expander causes some deformation of the carbon steerer. If you just want to see that section fast forward to about 7:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSnbjHiFXc


Tim

[sales guy]

Luescher has a nice video showing how just snugging up the expander causes some deformation of the carbon steerer. If you just want to see that section fast forward to about 7:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSnbjHiFXc


Tim

Oh I know it does! I build bikes daily. That's why I said the "engineer" is wrong. For him to claim the expander wedge does nothing but allow the headset to be tightened, that's just flat out false.

[joosttx]

Oh I know it does! I build bikes daily. That's why I said the "engineer" is wrong. For him to claim the expander wedge does nothing but allow the headset to be tightened, that's just flat out false.

I have never seen someone go all over the place and totally contradict themselves on such a small and relatively simple engineering question. I would give up before you hit the earths mantle

[FlashUNC]

Oh I know it does! I build bikes daily. That's why I said the "engineer" is wrong. For him to claim the expander wedge does nothing but allow the headset to be tightened, that's just flat out false.

Have you informed Enve, as a supplier of forks for Enigma, that they're making unsafe expander plugs that, in your view, are not appropriate to use with their own fork?

[Veloo]

Here's an email from ENVE in 2012 when I was tweaking my stem height with a number of spacers.
Yeah, the ENVE plug is pretty short. I did have too much excess steerer but cut it a bit after some fiddling.

"It is not recommended that you clamp outside of the compression plug, but it is ok to do so. The torque should not exceed 6nm. I would only do this temporarily and once you determine the exact positioning for the stem then cut the steerer tube so that the compression plug can reinforce the clamping zone."

[Heisenberg]

Oh I know it does! I build bikes daily. That's why I said the "engineer" is wrong. For him to claim the expander wedge does nothing but allow the headset to be tightened, that's just flat out false.

you should definitely test your theory by clamping a stem down on a fork with no expander plug. then, take a completely loose plug, drop it into the fork, and torque the stem bolts until the expander doesn't move.

really looking forward to the results!

[sales guy]

you should definitely test your theory by clamping a stem down on a fork with no expander plug. then, take a completely loose plug, drop it into the fork, and torque the stem bolts until the expander doesn't move.

really looking forward to the results!

Measuring the internal diameter would be a better test. So I did it

Just took a fork and measured the ID- 23.46mm
Took a stem and clamped it at 3mm below the top
ID is now 23.25mm
And by the way, the stem is listed at 6nm of torque. I torqued it to 5.5nm. At 6nm, the ID is now 23.18mm.
And I only tightened 1 bolt. With 2 bolts I bet it's even lower. Probably closer to 23.0mm.
The fork is a Columbus Futura Caliper fork. Stem is a FSA SL-K. Both are brand new.
And no grease on the stem bolts as that would change the torque settings by an average of 15%.

[sales guy]

I have never seen someone go all over the place and totally contradict themselves on such a small and relatively simple engineering question. I would give up before you hit the earths mantle

not sure how I am all over the place when I've said since my first comment that expander wedges are important for safety and longer ones should be used.

[Veloo]

There must be steerer end pieces around that one could experiment with.

[BdaGhisallo]

measuring the internal diameter would be a better test. So I did it

just took a fork and measured the ID- 23.46mm
took a stem and clamped it at 3mm below the top
ID is now 23.25mm
And by the way, the stem is listed at 6nm of torque. I torqued it to 5.5nm. At 6nm, the ID is now 23.18mm.
And I only tightened 1 bolt.
the fork is a Columbus Futura Caliper fork. Stem is a FSA SL-K.

I am thinking about using a Futura fork for my next build since Enve doesn't make a 45mm raked fork in the 1 1/8-1 1/4 size.

How do you rate them?

[sales guy]

I am thinking about using a Futura fork for my next build since Enve doesn't make a 45mm raked fork in the 1 1/8-1 1/4 size.

How do you rate them?

It's an excellent fork. They are really well made and have a slightly taller crown. So a 28, fits fine. Here's a picture of one with a Veloflex Master in a 700x28. Plenty of room.

[BdaGhisallo]

It's an excellent fork. They are really well made and have a slightly taller crown. So a 28, fits fine. Here's a picture of one with a Veloflex Master in a 700x28. Plenty of room.

Thank you.

[sales guy]

Thank you.

Sure thing. Sorry for the bad picture. It's hanging on the wall in the office here and was trying to at least get daylight in it with the way it was hanging. Great forks though. I Really like them. Not as stiff as the Enve 2.0. Nice riding fork.

[gasman]

Let’s end this on a positive note. I think it’s been well covered.